EP 11 Beth from Accuracy Third

Welcome to the first show of 2025 featuring Beth From the show Accuracy Third (https://accuracythird.com/). They are a podcast about Burning Man, or "an oral history of Black Rock City", and they first started their show about 9 years ago. It's a great show and I encourage you to check it out.

Meet Beth, a long-term Host for the Accuracy Third podcast, to explore the evolving culture and internal dynamics of Burning Man. The conversation highlights Beth’s transition from a casual attendee to an insider volunteer manager responsible for a large staff camp, illustrating how the event functions through communal effort and civic responsibility rather than a typical corporate structure. They discuss the socioeconomic diversity of the "Playa," emphasizing that the event’s "soul" resides in the vulnerable, itinerant workers and volunteers who build its infrastructure, rather than the wealthy "plug-and-play" participants often featured in the media. Ultimately, the dialogue serves to humanize the burner community and explain how a massive, rudderless ship of volunteers continues to find profound personal meaning and creative inspiration amidst harsh conditions and organizational challenges.

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to The Shadow of the Man. I'm your host, Andy. Happy new year. It's that Andy. Today a very special guest. I have Beth from Accuracy Third. Welcome Beth.

Hi. Welcome. Yeah. Nice to talk to you.

Yeah. Pleasure to talk. So, Accuracy Third. So, how many It's a Burning Man podcast. You guys have uh your Tales from the Playa like uh uh oral histories, right? Like I I'd say you guys definitely have like more insiders perspective like aren't you guys are all staff, right?

I mean I mean, sort of insider.

Uh, we're more insider now than when we started. Uh,

just through getting, you know, Rex started actually working at the org full-time. Um, I am now the mayor of a staff camp. Uh, and DDay runs the kitchen for our staff camp. So, um, you know, when we started nine years ago, we were all sort of in different positions doing different kinds of volunteer work. This kind of where we've ended up over time. Yeah.

It is kind of excitery.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean just sometimes like some of the episodes I learned too would referring to like like ranger codes and stuff and like I have a number of friends who are rangers and snap, but I've never done a rangering myself, you know. It's

once you take a training, it's a blast.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Um but it's funny because it was like code green or red or blue or whatever, you know, and I was just like which what is that? Which one was that? Like I've heard people talk about these things, but you know,

yeah, when we when we started the podcast, we would slow down and explain things mostly because I didn't know what they meant because

Rex and D-Day were

had a lot more experience with Burning Man than I did. But now, now we're totally insider baseball to the extent that sometimes I imagine we're unlistable.

But it's very funny. I love the show.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're very It's like our our our friendship is really warm and we just sit around and shoot the s*** with each other. all the time.

Oh, yeah.

That's mostly what we're cutting out of our podcasts isn't the Burning Man stories. It's us rehashing stuff that has nothing to do with Burning Man.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, how many years have you been on the the Plyatt now? Or what was the first time you went to Burning Man?

Uh, I went to Burning Man for the first time in ' 07. Um, and I'm at 10 or 11 years now. Some years off and you know that. Yeah. So, 10 11 years.

Wow. Okay. But Um, yeah. Well, that's a kind of a good background and like who you are like within the Burning Man world and your experience, but we'll come back to that more in depth. But, so where did it where did it all begin?

Uh, so I was

well life before Burning Man, like what led you to Burning Man?

I mean, I I had gone to art school. Uh, I was making collaborative ensemble generated theater with some folks who um did Burning Man. Uh, you know, I was also polying kind of dating some of those folks. So, I was in like weird sex positive arty world up in Seattle and like suddenly all of the friends that I were making were all burners

and my partner had done Burning Man like back in like 96 97 and he was done with it. He he had gone enough but then I was like but what if I want to go? Um so like I found out about it a couple of months before it happened. in ' 06. And so I had like a whole year and I joined an established camp sort of established camp with a bunch of people who' done it forever.

So I got a really easy landing. Like I, you know, we were having meetings once a month and really getting our s*** together. So um I was very lucky in how I went. Uh because

that's the way to do it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Find a bunch of burner friends and then join their camp, I guess.

Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I've heard of these like gun people was like, "I'm going to go for the first time and I'm going to show up on the bus with like my backpack." I mean, actually,

I'm so not that person. I'm like, I if I if it's going to take me 4 hours to research the beginning of my packing list, I'm just f*****. I need someone to like hold my hand and let me know it's going to be okay.

Yeah. Yeah. No, like for me, I actually took the bus this year and that I brought like two duffel bags and I figured my maximum weight and you told I was staying at the Elswear like there in center camp. So, you know, I had I knew I I didn't have to bring water, like heavy things like that, you know, but, you know, I had to bring like my tent, all my stuff, my all my food, everything, you know.

Yeah. I mean, you're

I couldn't imagine like doing that just like, oh, I'm going to do like walking camp. I mean, I went to a place like they had electricity, they had water, they had like shade, you know.

Yeah, totally. The thing that really saved my ass is we had a really good um pre-meal planning setup. So like a couple of our camp people were really gung-ho on making making sure that we had like real food the whole week. So there was like bagged frozen meals that you know you heat up in boiling water.

Yeah.

And they really good because it was like a passion project for some people in the camp and we had like a huge amount of shade not that I just wouldn't have had access to otherwise. And

yeah

everybody you know as soon as you start gathering people it's harder to like really uh leave something that you needed to have behind. So

yeah, that's true. That's true. I don't know what we experienced our camp it was quite the opposite. It was like people bringing more things than we needed. Like I I remember one point seeing this like bucket of metal scraps and I was like who put this 5gallon like you know Costco bucket of like metal scraps and like oh you I thought you know maybe I would weld some stuff up on the play out you know it's like you know just kind of arts and crafty things like around like you realize how much weight we're adding to the truck with this like 40 lbs of this, you know, like all this. We're like I mean people brought like like a vacuum an old vacuum cleaner and then I was like we're going why you bringing a vacuum cleaner like

I had who would bring a dustbuster every year just to vacuum out the tent.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean we had plenty of things like that. It was always like you know the it's like the light of day reveals all but or like you know like the leaving day or the end of the week, you know, kind of like exposes like, you know, like at your camp you it's like, oh, all like the extra stuff you brought or like things you didn't bring, you have to like, you know, and people like trade with each other and giving things away. Lots of meals being cooked.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like if you're hungry at Burning Man, stick around for strike because people are like, "Take my food. Take it. Come eat it all."

Yeah. So, yeah. So, we're Is that where you grew up? Was that in Seattle?

I grew up in Portland and I went up to Seattle for undergrad.

Okay.

Yeah. And Seattle at the time had this really thriving like kink, sex positive, polyamorous, artsy, like young burner community that um was small enough that like if you went to the, you know, twice monthly bar event, you would see the same people and get like

into um you know, you'd find your people pretty fast. So much when I

moved down to San Francisco, I was like, "Oh, it'll be so easy to find my people. I'll just start going to burner events." And it just doesn't work like that in San Francisco. Everybody's a burner. Nobody cares. And it's not enough to like you like bring people together. Uh, you know, or different smaller not public groups.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I know in Hawaii it was kind of like that. It's like we in the beginning it was kind of more like, "Oh, hey, we're like burners together out here in the middle of now and then it was like this kind of grew and developed and it splintered off and there's like different communities and it's like oh the fire spinners have their weekly fire jam and these other people have like their underground parties and you know like and like you said it's like private lists and stuff and then you know new people come in and then I don't know like I'm I'm not in charge of that anymore.

I mean I think it's it's really an interesting thing like if I'm outside of the Bay Area and I run into burners. It's this huge magical like oh my god we're already friends in the Bay Area. It's just like well a there's a lot of animosity towards burners. Like there's so many of us and it's such a huge thing and it's so tied in narratively with our s***** tech overlords and being either you know full of Instagram models or billionaires by people who haven't been. Uh so

you're talking about just like local like Burning Man people. Like you you say the animosity.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Like Burning Burning Man I mean it might have chilled out now that Burning Man has flopped on its face a couple of times like publicly like because I think it really came from uh you know FOMO like oh I don't want to do this. It seems like obnoxious people are doing this. Why does it make me upset that they're all doing this? Um when it's you know when it's just a bunch of f****** people camping people aren't as up in arms about it. But

yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, so there's like some real you can palpably feel the culture war against burners in the Bay Area in a way that you just don't anywhere else because there's just not enough of them to like really create that kind of dynamic.

Yeah,

that's interesting. No, I mean because I've often thought about like different like eras of Burning Man and like and remember I was talking like um uh on your show last week like oh yeah for for my listeners I'm actually going to be on Accuracy 3. Um, well, this show is probably going to go out like early January, so I think the episode with me will be like some point after that. But, but anyway, yeah. Well, no, I I I Oh, the different eras of Burning Man, but like Yeah. So, when I said like on your show, it's like I I last my last year is 2011 and then it came back in 2024. So, the last year I was there was the first year it sold out and the first year it came back was the first year it didn't sell out. And so, at that period and just just I'd kind of out of it, you know, but like just just kind of reading stuff on like social social media, you know, but uh and just hearing stories from like afar. I mean just the pay for play camps, you know, and and like Yeah. I mean, I guess that would be sort of the height of like the the Instagram models and stuff. I mean

I mean you like sure and like that I've I've gone most years between 2011 and 2024 like two, but like

I never saw these things like the the image of the negative sides of Burning Man, the Instagram models, the the billionaire plug-and-play camps. It's like if I looked really hard, I could figure out which I could make some assumptions about which camps were plug and play,

but I'd have to be actively seeking that out. It's just not in your face very much.

It's just

what uh the media kind of latches on to

Yeah.

in the narratives around Burning Man. Um I just I assume because you can only say sex drug hippie party so many times before people don't care. So have to show the internal burning man conflict like look at all these righteous burners getting angry at each other and it's like well yeah we're a big diverse community we have lots of people care about it a lot and they have a lot of opinions so yes yes we we have a lot of

in arguing in fighting but I don't that's the it that being newsworthy is always so weird to me it's like why are there

perhaps it's like they see it as It's like, you know, like if it bleeds, it leads. But like, you know, if there's if there's trouble in paradise, you know, and it's just like, oh, everyone's talking about it, you know, is this like this great thing, but like here's the inside story. We did an investigation, you know, it's like this is what's really going on like, you know, that's what media does like every year. So, there are multiple news stories about it and it's like, guys, it's a party. Like, what are you doing?

You know, like I mean, the reindeer at least like, hey, that was something like something happened uh which was more than they usually find. Um which is like protesters or like hey there was garbage on the side of the road before the people who pick up the garbage on the side of the road go through like you know they it's just looking for that that

how to make it interesting instead of just pointing at it and going like this is happening. Um because it's you know it's not like interesting. It's interesting for us to go. It's interesting for us to be in there but it's not like a a a feature of our culture. It's a party.

So,

well, it's the reporting on it year after year. It's like, yeah, you have to be like, you know, it's it's like, hey, Joe and Suzanne, like, you've been going to report for ABC News here for like, you know, the past like 12 years. And, you know, we're reviewing your footage like every year. It's just like, wow, what a cool part. Like, you know, like we we need something juicier, you know, like what's really going on? Like, we're hearing stories people are saying on the internet, you know? blah blah blah, you know, like get that story.

Well, I I assume it's just cuz it's fun to hate. Hell, Burning Man. Burners hate Burning Man. It's fun to hate.

Oh, there's always controversy. It's like in the, you know, you've heard the the theme song to my show like my friend Jenny, you know, she came up with that uh

um was it party party drama drama drama? b****, b****, b****.

It's like, you know, it's like it like it can sum up a lot of like burning experience and Like that's one like little phrase, but it's like yeah, I mean it's funny like I have friends who are just like, "Oh, we have a dramafree camp." I'm like, "Oh, oh, b*******." Like, I bet you'll find some drama there.

I just Oh my god. Are we in middle school? How do you have a drama? Like that's just like our our people won't ever be in conflict with each other. And it's like, what are you doing? How are you doing Burning Man then? Because like are you saying all of you are always totally coherent and capable of uh communicating clearly to each other.

Are you even going to Burning Man at that point?

Like

I mean

I think you know like um in the introductory like my episode the first like I talked to because I think there there's there's some people listen to the show like who'd never been to Bernie man you know like some friends. Um but there's and also remember you're saying it's like you had a boyfriend at the time who had like been going and then like you know was like was like ask her that I'm not going anymore but then by the time you were just starting like oh I want get into it. Like it's like Yeah. I mean there's there's some people it's a bucket list thing. They just go once they're just kind of like oh that's that's all I need, you know? Or they go I mean I've I've known a few people who've gone it's like well they're there and they're just like you know I can't take like the sound or you know it's like or the crowds or whatever and like and they just have to leave you know. But uh yeah I mean I think for the other people that if you don't get like involved like if you're just there for like a party it's like after about like 3 years or so it's kind of like the the bloom is sort of off the rose and you're like, you know, get a little jaded like been there, done that, you know. And then there's people who like who who get involved and they start a theme camp or they like, you know, they volunteer or and or all of the above, you know, do art and art car, whatever, blah blah blah. And it's like, you know, a lot of people go they'll go for like a dozen years, you know, or and then there's people who go for more. And then then it's just like the lifers, people just doing it like I mean like like my last episode, Ply Pete, I mean He's I don't think he's ever been like staff. I'm not sure if he's like volunteered like he's always done like the the screen printing for them. So he's like always maybe like a vendor sort of thing. But uh yeah, he's been going the last like this year next year will be like 30 years straight, you know. And then um uh I think like I might interview like Chef Juke coming up and he's like and he's just I think hit like 30 years and you know he's he's staffed but yeah. I mean, you know, that well, that kind of gets me to like the the later part of like the show, like the third question of just it's like, you know, the shadow of the band for you, you know, just it's like, oh, you know, you've been going like a a number of years now. I'm sure it's been like a big part of your life, you know, it's like you you continue to go even though, you know, things change and evolve. Like what's it all mean to you? You know, it's like how's this changed your life?

Um, so I I did two years and I was done. I did like when I was 23 and 24 and it was great. It was just expensive

and hard to do and I was coming down from Seattle which is a really long hall. Um

and so I was and like I was broke, you know, uh so it wasn't like I could afford to do it. Uh and then I met D-Day um helping a friend move out of a house and he was like, "Come come work it. You're a theater person. You'd love it. towards the three the my triad at the time. So the three of us went out and volunteered and that really since then I've been just in love with it. And

so where did you volunteer?

Huh?

Where'd you volunteer?

Center camp. I volunteered I mean I've been with the same team that I started volunteering for just moving around in different areas and now in sort of a leadership role. But yeah, I found kind of the right spot for me basically immediately. I loved the crew. I loved what we were doing. I mean That's not true. I slightly embarrassed about what we were doing, but it was something I was capable of doing and I loved the people and that's always mattered to me. Um, yeah. And like that coming in and doing volunteering really changed what it was for me.

What I didn't expect is like my whole life being wrapped around it the way that it is now. Like doing the podcast. So I fell in love with Rex at Burning Man

and the DJ Rex and I all kind of were like, "Hey, all of us want to make a podcast." And they were like, "Let's do it about Burning Man." And I was like, That's f****** dumb. Who wants to listen to a Burning Man podcast?

I don't know. Like I always thought that like I wanted something but like no one ever made anything. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I'm probably the wrong person for a Burning Man podcast. They barely listen to ours, you know? Uh I I can talk about Burning Man all the time. I'm surrounded by burners. All my friends are burners. All I on our council, I'm talking about Burning Man. It's not like I'm lonely and missing the vibe. I like live in it. You know, Rex works at the office. I go in for tea and hang out with people. It is way more of my life than I ever would have suspected. And

do you are you staff? Are you working for Bernie man or like are you you have a different job?

No, I'm a I'm I'm a volunteer manager. Like I'm I'm I do the planning for a staff camp. Um I get

So like I'm just I just volunteer a lot.

Ah okay. Okay.

Yeah.

But just but but like for your like you know default world like you know alter ego you know it's like It's like, oh, so you're not like like paid by the Burning Man project or, you know, give

No. God, no. No. I

I pay way too much money to go to Burning Man and all kinds of money on it and do not get paid via them. I get like a I get like a travel reimbursement stipen,

like a little bit of money.

Um, but it's not

it doesn't even make a dent and how much money I'm putting into the camp myself.

So, you know, uh, but it's not I for me that's a huge bonus. I have to frame this as volunteering. I think I hate for my wage job to be Burning Man. Um because it would change my dynamic with it a lot. Like

yeah,

I take great comfort in knowing that everything that I'm doing is consensual that I can walk away from it at any time.

I don't have to do this. This isn't how I keep a roof over my head. It is something I do because I choose to, because I love it. I do it for my community. I do it for my friends. I, you know, like it being consensual, it being mutual is super deep for me. So, it's like even if I had the opportunity to get a paid job. I mean, a they don't pay very well and uh and I I love my job job. I'm so incredibly lucky um working at the university that I work at and I adore it and yeah, it I I would hate to turn Burning Man into a my financial my financial peace under capitalism. I mean, but f****** Rex loves it and I'm so pleased.

Well, I think there might be different ways to go about it, but like, you know, but I don't know. I think we probably might share the idea that like, and I think you guys explicitly say it in your show, it's like it's a gift, you know? It's like, and for me, it's like I don't know. I'm now starting to realize cuz I was just like, no, I think gifting might actually be for me like, you know, like my favorite of the 10 principles or like something in the default world like what you can actually do. And it's like it's not like, you know, oh, I'm going to give out Jolly Rogers to people, you know, it's like You know, it's like gifting is is like just being nice to people, you know, or helping somebody, you know, like just like random acts of kindness, you know, like like with no thinking of like, oh, I'm going to get something out of it, you know? It's like you just do it for the sake of doing it, you know, like and so yeah. So, like like I said, like it's kind seems like we have a similar sort of attitude where it's like I don't know, this is just something for me like for Shadow of the Man, it's like it's it's something I just want I I want to do or like like many projects I've done it's like it's like I don't know I have this idea like core you know I was just like you know it's like it's like let's make this happen you know it's like I mean and if I can't do it somebody else like will you know but uh yeah like a I gift to the community but

it's it's so funny I feel I feel so resistant about having my my attitude or my time be a gift I think of it much more as communal effort and civic

respons Yeah. Yeah, it's all kind of wrapped up like Yeah.

Right. But so for me, it's about I have put all of this time and energy into making into this big huge thing to make it a little bit better for some people, but doing that makes me feel more welcome to participating with everybody else's what they have brought.

Yeah.

You know, like it it

I want to give more of my time and energy and make it better um in the ways that I can. so that I can really roll around in the ways that everybody else does it. Like I don't I'm not an artist in that way. I, you know, I'm an artist in a lot of ways, but I'm not like a buildings like practical artist. I don't really have a lot a strong desire to build art out there. Um, I'm really glad that other people do. I don't like making people food. I don't want to make people food out there. I don't like trinkets. I don't want to get make a bunch of FIMO necklaces, you know? I don't There's just so What the the weird thing that I have to give is basic organizational skills, a tolerance for paperwork, and like some forward planning, and that is, you know, it's a lot of time, but it's also really

No, that's a very special gift that is actually kind of rare out on the planet. Yeah.

Um, you know, we do fundraising and we we made a council where we do collaborative decision- making. It's like a lot of administrative sort of work, but it's work that I learned how to do professionally, so I might as well do it for something that I love. And really fun and great practice to try to make big projects outside of a strongly hierarchical system of like

one person sort of top down telling us all what to do,

which is great skills to learn if I can never apply them in capitalism, but they're still nice to have.

I don't know. I think they're probably transferable, you know. I mean, I'm not sure if you could put on a resume, you know, but I mean, maybe some places.

I mean, they uh Burning Man runs much better meetings than my university does.

Yeah. Well, no, I think Burning Man is has definitely grown a reput a good reputation, too, you know, and people don't remember it, you know, like, but yeah, I mean, I think uh I think in a lot of cases now it's like if you put down like, oh, I have Bernie man experience like working for like a Bernie man project doing this and that. I think I don't know even like military except some places, you know, they might be like, you know, like

I

like we trust that credential.

Yeah. We just interviewed Will Chase and he was like, "No, nothing on your resume." I'm like, I I I don't have it on my resume. I I started taking the podcast off my resume because I'm like, I I'd rather my employers not

Exactly. Yeah.

You know, dig into that side of of me. Um because it's not exactly like work appropriate for almost any work space that

No, people have like their own opinions or like they'll just kind of like type in like Burning Man like you know to Google and it's just like the first like five things that appear you know they're just kind of like oh you know and like we said like with the media and stuff it it's like it's quite often sensational or you know like or people like mad at each other or crazy you know Um yeah. So how many people are in your the camp that you manage?

Um so this year was around 160 people.

Oh okay.

Um yeah you know we're a fairly big staff camp. We're not we're not the biggest. Um but we're up there. A lot of the staff camps are smaller than that. You know most of them are under 100. Uh except for like Gate and DPW's big main um camps. are larger

or pretty big.

Too many people to actually remember all of their names. Too many people to uh be able to know what is going on all the time in camp.

Oh, yeah.

Large a camp to be able to see from one side to the other. It's, you know, it's big. It's Yeah.

Well, do you think you're going to this is like this is it? Like are you thinking like, oh, this you might want to try something different another year or like you know?

So, this will be Next year um we'll be the third 22 23 24. So this year was my third year sort of in this position. It's kind of changed titles.

Uhhuh.

I this year was one of the first year where I felt like I felt like the changes that I've been making really improved the situation.

My you know when you are a volunteer manager like the first thing they tell you to do is get a second get get someone who you're training to replace you and have a wonderful second but he doesn't want the job. Um, which is understandable. Um, it's kind of too big of a role. It's more like so instead of getting someone I'm trying to get a group of people to start taking care of certain sections of it. Like

there's all of these very different parts. There's the administrative side, there's the fundraising side, there's the literal build side, which I I'm s*** at. Like I can't work um with no shade. Like when this the camp comes and gets set up

a week before the week of setup so that we have infrastructure in place so our our volunteers who are working the entire week of setup have uh have a camp to go to um have some infrastructure, have shade, have you know water and the basic things that they need um before the whole infrastructure of the city comes in.

So how long are you up there for?

Um this year It was three weeks and I think I'm going to try and keep it at that Wednesday to Wednesday.

Um the Wednesday before setup week to Wednesday of strike. Um and I think that works for me. It's like a I'm I get a little too like tired and burnt out to be useful um much past. So

yeah,

I think that's what I'm going to be aiming for next year.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's just it's kind of hard to get that kind of time off, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And and you know the f*** of it is it's not even time off. I take four days off. Um I'm working. Uh I'm working my job remotely while I'm there. I am checking email. I I like do a bunch of advance work so that everyone's set before I go.

And then I uh you know am available via email. And sometimes I can even have meetings but the internet has been not really possible which is my preference. I'd rather not be having Zoom things while in there, you know.

Well, no. I I think it's the difference between like, you know, it's like you're managing like a a large like staff camp, you know. It's like and you got to be there for three weeks and you have a job, you know. I mean, like I mean, it's not, you know, your passion for it is not a question, you know.

Yeah. I'm just very lucky in my job setup that I can get away with that basically.

Yeah. Yeah.

But like many years ago, I remember like when Wi-Fi was first started to become like available like you know I don't know maybe like early 2000s or whatever and uh I don't know people were just like what you know it's like we don't want to know like what's going on in the world but then and other people just like what people got to work you know and then there was you know in the beginning it was like what the hell you're going to Bernie band you know but now like you know listening to your story it's like yeah no people got to work you know like it's like oh you want me to be there for 3 weeks it's like well you know it's not really a question of like money or so much or this or that. It's like it's like it's a question of time you know and

it's like not many people can do that like

yeah but they also equal the same thing like it's when I before I got this job and I was doing freelance work as like a technician like lighting sound video for live events it's like I can take as much time off as I want but I'm not making any money while I am. Yeah.

And you know it I know a lot of friends that go out there doing that like

they can take a long time but it you know it's more than just the time off. They they are losing a large amount of money by doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think is going to really start showing up now that the economy is so crappy. Um you know a lot of people aren't going to be able to afford it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Like I said, like it seems like now we're this is some sort of new era we're all kind of going into. I mean, starting with COVID, you know, and then like, you know, being really hot and then like, you know, really wet, cold, and wet and now now this year, you know, and then like the funding issues and stuff. I mean, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see where it goes from here. But, you know, like like many people have said, it's, you know, it's like like an iceberg or or like you know, like a large ship, you know, tanker. It's like it it has a lot of momentum.

Yeah. I you know, I hesitate to guess. I you know, whatever they're doing, they're doing it.

Yeah. Well, no. I mean, like, but no matter like what the headwinds that come along, right? Uh I think like and it's like a a brand new like first year burner uh I I met like on the bus like when we're leaving this time and I, you know, I think he was like a little bit like worried or he was just like what do you think is like going to happen like in in in the future or like is it going to happen again and I was like oh you know Bernie man has this momentum I think it was like Larry Harvey or somebody's head something you know it's like an oil tanker or like a big cruise ship or something you know like way out in the ocean like it it takes a while for it to stop you know it's like it takes a while you know for it for it to to turn around you know

yeah so it's just like your organization. It is insane to actually run something this large and this complex totally off of the goodness of the hearts of people uh who make it like that forever to change anything. And when you do, everybody f****** hates it.

I would say that's part of the thing about being on somewhat insidery is it's so frustrating how many people think that they have a clever idea that can fix it all. Like that, you know, it's just like, well, yeah. Uh-huh. Like you're not even thinking about the fact that this is volunteers which is sort of the baseline of the whole thing. They're looking at the whatever 100 paid staff jobs and going like that's Burning Man and it's like

yeah

we you can't actually fix anything when Burning Man in just those people. Like that's not how it's made. Oh god. Someone on like Reddit suggested that they become a for-profit profit events production company like and that it would be super easy for them to start making money and it's like, "Oh my god, you've never talked to anyone who's worked a festival. You've never met anyone who's planned a festival."

Is it like serious or they you know?

Yeah. No, it's some some tech douchebag that who's just like I have. Obviously, the problem is no one as smart as I am.

Oh god. Yeah. Just make like their own Burning Man crypto thing. Like that was another thing, right?

Oh my god. If they release like um what are the the images that that you can own? Oh.

Oh, no. That's Leave No Trace. Uh,

we got to monetize Leaves No Trace. Yeah. Yeah. Um, NFTTS, I think.

NFTs. That Yes. Yes.

Unfundable tokens or something, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, really?

Yeah.

Wow.

I think it'd be really funny. I'm I'm happy to sell people images that they can have.

So, what? Like every like a little click I could take go around and take pictures of and it was just like, "Oh, here's my picture of like, you know, robot robot heart. Here's my picture."

I I think so. At the

at the end of the year, the the restoration team sends us pictures of everywhere we f***** up with L&T. So, there'll be like

So, there'll be like a dirty hippie hand and a dog in the background and a guy like holding like six like metal shards and a tiny unicorn. and they show you on the map where that was like left. Um, and I think that they could make those into nonfgeable tokens. Just you get your very own like here's a picture of something that was left on Playa

uh photo.

Wow. I mean, I wonder if the price of it would go up if it was like, you know, the worst the offense, you know, like

here's a bonfire. Somebody like lit up all their trash, you know?

Oh, yeah. You know, if it's a bucket, don't open in the bucket. It's always full of poop.

Buckets are always full of poop.

I don't know. But I mean, the only thing like I don't know is thinking about like I mean like these these wild conspiracy theory people like, "Oh, Brendy B's got to be over this and that." Like you're saying like a lot of momentum and a lot of it is that the volunteers, right? I mean like what would make all of the volunteers all set just quit, you know? I mean that's something I heard like like a 96. I mean that was kind of like one of the between like 95 and 96 or something. There was like a big like or maybe between 96 and 97 there was like a a big split, you know. It's like where it was just like from one era to another, you know, where it's like a lot it was like everything everyone burned everything down and the volunteers all left, you know, but then, you know, like when I interviewed Coyote, it's like that's when Coyote kind of came in, you know, and it's like, you know, that's when Burning Man, I don't know. Like everything's like an evolution, you know. It's like it's not nothing's quite really a death, but like a a rebirth, you know, or, you know, it becomes something new and different. And so I guess now it's not really any different, right?

I mean, we'll see. I mean, if they get the permit, they get the permit. It's I I think that, you know, uh it'll be it'll be an interesting year.

Well, what's the worst that could happen? You know, it's just outside of like weather or stuff, right? Are people worrying? It's like, oh no, no one's going to buy a ticket or what if Bernie Van's only like 52,000 people? Sounds awesome.

I honestly think that the the the main stumbling block is if they don't have enough money to buy the permit and the all the things associated with that permit. Like in order to get the permit, they have to have the poop pumpers, they have to have the ice trucks, they have to do it's not so the permit is a few million dollars, but the contracts with those things are also several million dollars. I think I mean it's a lot of money that is being spent and I think that's the the fear. is that there won't be enough money to pay for the the basic infrastructure to have the permit. I think the volunteers and the the um seasonal workers will always be there, but they also have to consider that like do they have enough money to pay all these seasonal workers because there is like a couple of thousand DPW that are on short-term contracts out there. Um

so, you know, there's, you know, 10 11,000 volunteers for the org, but uh there's like one or two 000 uh short-term employees that they also need to be paying um which they don't pay very well but they do feed and house them and um they also do neat trainings like if you are in DPW and and have a short-term contract they will certify you on all of their heavy equipment because they do the certifications.

Wow.

So you can like go in and get actual direct marketable skills out of it. Um which is is pretty cool. You know, there's a lot to be said.

That's an interesting thing because I mean like so many people think which is like oh Birdie Man is just kind or the Birdman project is so extractive. You know, it's just like oh they're just kind of like using these like seasonal workers. They're using these caries and throwing them away. But it's like I don't know. I never even realized that. It's like oh you could get like or update or you know get continuing education credit or whatever like on like on your your lensure you know on your accreditation for being like a bit like machine operator or whatever.

You now operate a lift which which really changes what you can do in the world um like financially wise what jobs are available to you um yeah I think you know those

is a job training

yeah I mean it is but like that's actually one of the like sticking parts for my heart is because so I interact with those people a lot um and do work weekends where we work on repairing our stuff off play so we're staying at block rock station and we're around the people who have like long-term contracts and I have friends who are long-term contract workers and they, you know, it's it's a really specific job and these are groups of people that are

often transient, often like are doing this kind of seasonal work all around. Some of them are ninemonth contracts with Burning Man and they just patch together a thing for three months over here. Some of them are one month and are constantly moving doing stuff and like there was this huge shift in dynamics when they legalized weed because a lot of these people trimmers um because you could make a good living um trimming weed because it was illegal um because it had high stakes. So you could get like $25 an hour just cutting up weed living in a beautiful woodsy area of like Arcada, California. Um

so a lot of folks were that are in DPW or are in sort of gray were in sort of gray market area employment. It might not be employment that's on the books. It might not be employment that is fully legal. It might not not be it's certainly not steady employment. It often involves moving physically your location. Um it often involves physical labor. Um so it's you know like this is a group of people that are um vulnerable and

well what what happens uh to all these people when they they get older, you know, pretty been going on like 40 years now. Whatever. I mean uh

some of those early DPW people 40 years ago if there were 23 and I would be like freaking 63 now or whatever you like theoretically. Yeah. I don't know. It's one of the things that I jokingly some but somehat like actually not jokingly you know like every years ago coming up with the whole the moniker the burning acres you know it's just like we're going to have like a retirement community for all like the the DPW like the volunteers and like we said like people who who've been like itinerant you know they've gone around and like I mean I've known people I I've sadly had people die fairly young like in their 60s you you know, because they they they couldn't afford like the healthcare and whatever and whatnot, you know, but you know, people who just worked like cash jobs, you know, it's like carpentry or like painting and it's like never paid into social security

if if they even have a f****** job record. It's, you know, it's a really tenuous sort of place to be. So, and like in case your listeners don't know, the that is also the weird and crusty soul of Burning Man. These weirdos, these really these are people who don't don't, and I'm not saying this about all of them, but like these are people who don't easily fit within society. These are people that don't easily pass as normies. These are people who are outside of our structure so much that they would struggle to be within them. And that's part of how Burning Man stays so weird and unique and like it's also the place where we get our the most diversity in um the income levels that we have out there. There's like a low level. It is expensive to go to Burning Man. The cheapest way to go to Burning Man is to work for it. The cheapest way to go to Burning Man is to be a volunteer and get a ticket. Like the the the the volunteers and the contract employees are the poorest people on Playa. Um and that's also how we keep the the the soul of it like doing something. The moment that we aren't we don't have space for people who who can't afford several thousand dollars a flight across the world. Uh rent an RV. The moment that we don't those people aren't coming to Burning Man, Burning Man like the thing that makes it magic is going to die. And so it's like this diversity is coming from them and they're vulnerable and the org is taking advantage of them in some ways, but they're also doing a halfway decent job. Like the most of their f****** jobs suck. Most of their jobs are vulnerable. Most of the situations they're in are not great. And so it's like this really weird thing where you're like, "Oh f***, I I love this person and I feel like they're being taken advantage of, but they love this job and like this is one of the stable better parts of their year. They love this community, you know, this is really meaningful to them. So, it it's

that's right there like the word mean. Yeah, I I think like yeah, they could be really vulnerable and and they not fit in, you know, but like for this I think for a lot these people like uh it brings meaning, right? You know, so so finally it's like, you know, everybody has some gift or or something that they're good at. No one is just all bad at everything, you know. And sometimes these weird esoteric things, it's like sometimes Yeah. in a big party you need a manager, you know, like but I mean so I'm sure for like a lot of these like you know itinerant kind of like workers and stuff and it's like this might be like one of the the few moments and times of actual like like meaning for people too, you know. So it's like on the one hand like oh you're taking advantage of these people on the other hand it's like well you know I mean we we are giving them an opportunity and we're giving them meaning.

Yeah, absolutely. It's and like it is it's one of those weird things where it's like you could also very much save a little nest egg. You're getting fed and housed for the period of time that you're working that contract. You don't actually have to spend and you're getting as much free bar as like imaginable. Like you're you're in a good situation not to spend a bunch of money. Although people, you know, there's still a lot of things that the or isn't providing that people out there like to do. So, it's

they don't have a casino yet. What

do they have slot machines in Bruno?

No, I was talking about like a Fly Ranch or something, you know, the Fly Ranch casino.

But yeah, you know, I if people are really interested in what makes Burning Men unique, I think that population, that group of people is the people to look at. Um because it's also Like the things that get done out there are so silly and so hard and it just takes the patience of so many like hardworking people to to get it done and they're all slowly driving each other crazy too. Like it is,

you know, it's like working on a cruise ship. You you're like working with the same people in a small area um for a long time and then suddenly there's 80,000 people.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they're all on again. And I don't know. I mean, do you you said do you leave just like the Wednesday after? Do you How much of resto do you actually stay for?

That's it. Like I want to get the

major parts of our camp deconstructed, do some inventory.

Uh, you know, that's that's basically where I get to. We have camp strike leads that are actually taking it all the way to the resources like our or resources getting off ply or stuff getting fully removed and like the last um L&T stuff. So yeah, I don't stay to through the end. I'm honestly fairly ready to go uh by the time that

three weeks. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a long time.

Yeah. Well, for some of our listeners, um resto restoration and how long do they spend there? Is it like

like a month?

Like a month?

Like four weeks or something like that? Um They're no longer living out on ply. So it's after

after so uh there's the strike which goes to the Friday. There's last supper is what uh happens on Friday after burning man. Um and that's like the last meal that they serve in commissary and everybody's no one's spending the night on Playa after that.

Oh

so after Good Friday or after the last supper everybody uh is no longer on Playa. So, they're back out at the ranch or back in Gerlock or at the 360 or wherever they put people. Um, and then there's usually I think that there's a break like a couple of weeks and then they start restoration which is the really intensive long line sweeps where with all the documentation that when we get the moot map out and you see all of that detail, that's what they're doing. And they do that.

They actually wait a couple of weeks. I mean, I imagine they leave the trash fence up, right? I don't you know I these are great questions for someone who like I actually have a friend of mine staying with me right now who's working the Dickens fair who just got like goes from fire oh god the Dickens fair the Dickens fair is a uh

the Dickens

Dickens like the period like when Dickens wrote it's basically Christmas cosplay in like you dress up in Eduardian English stuff. And

what if you show like as like Edward Gory type of Edwwardian?

I mean, they're not really that picky. As long as you spending $45 to get the opportunity to shop, they're happy with it.

Like,

you can buy a $360 dress that you could wear to the Dickens Fair next year, or you can wear sweatshirts and a legging and buy a beer. No one cares. But like,

do they do a Dickens camp at Burning Man?

Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I'd want to want to know this family that does Dickens Fair is f****** nightmare. And like and when I'm talking about these communities, a whole bunch of people from Resto go and do Dickens Fair and like they're like a little family and they all like each other. So the fact that they're getting paid, you know, $18 an hour to do rigging is something that is okay, I guess,

you know. So

is there like a circuit that they would go to like the different festivals? I mean, I guess there's like Oregon Country Fair or something, right? Like

Yeah, absolutely. You know, my the the guy my uh uh the actual logistics lead of our camp is named Ry and Ry builds the steam room uh out at Oregon Country Fair every year and that's like that's his job. He's a he produces stuff professionally for a living and like he has employees and they put it up and some of those you know with a lot of these folks there are people who are like going from thing to thing and have a steady circuit and some are just scrapping along trying to figure out what's next. But

yeah,

you know, there's definitely a rhythm to what what things are available seasonally, but now with festivals in general like shuttering their doors, there's going to be a lot of loss of work in that industry again.

I mean, why do you think that is? I I mean, all of a sudden, it's just the economy. It's just too many festivals. I mean, like cyclical. I mean, like the things go up, things go down, things go all around.

I I don't know what it's like in Hawaii, but in San Francisco, it's like

it's really expensive to just have food, you know? It's really it's gotten really expensive just to be and the same amount of money is going a lot less far. And stuff like festivals is just

easy to be like, you know what, that's a lot of money. I don't feel like I have several thousand for gas and supplies and tickets and stuff

to to go do a basically a fun thing, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I just think there's a lot fewer people who who are like thinking that kind of expendable income is easy easy come easy go at this point.

Yeah. Well, in kind of in keeping with this like this is actually going to be the first episode of 2025 and sort of looking ahead at this next year and just things changed from last year now happening this year. Like just something just popped into my head, you know, just talking about like oh, you know, like uh it's hard to go to man's expensive, you know, it's easiest to like get a job like working for them. And even if you're not doing that, it's just like, oh yeah, people sacrifice and scrape together and pay a couple grand, you know, like and go to bring man. And then there's like been the stories of like, you know, like the billionaires or the the do bros or whatever. People just have like, you know, like uh uh you know, like tons of tons of money, you know. But uh maybe maybe this is Oh, then the other thing is just like uh with just the recent recent history of uh Luigi Manion, you know, and like the keep like the slaying of healthcare like CEO. I mean, like I wondered like how many of these like, you know, billionaires or.com CEOs like might kind of think twice, you know, like I don't know, maybe I don't want to go to Burning Man.

I mean, I don't think

that's so farfetched, but

yeah, like I'm sure the org is really twisted up about whether they come or not, but I I could Do you really think they're worried that like people won't buy tickets or maybe just to like the certain degree?

I mean I Yeah, I think that they're worried the fact that they expected a certain amount of money to come out of tickets and that was what 10,000$10 million short. I do I think they're worried about that. That's worrisome.

Yeah. But I mean

I don't know. I mean I I think like like we talk about like I think Britney has just this this like momentum and like for like 2020 five. Like I mean definitely it's like the the ticket like pricing structure like didn't work for last year. It's like you know the the was the FOMO the super expensive tickets which were what were they like 1,500 and 2500 or something like that. There were two tiers like and so

I haven't bought a ticket in a decade so I have no idea.

Although this is the first year I actually bought a ticket since I don't know 2001 or whatever. But um uh the FOMO tickets, just for the listeners, like these were tickets uh that would help like raise money for Burning Man. So, so for people who could afford it to help pay for like the lowinccome tickets or to pay for like the the honoraria like the art grants and and things like that. And so this past year, these FOMO more expensive FOMO tickets didn't really sell very well.

I mean, the regular all the other regular tickets, I think, sold uh pretty well, you know. But um

I you know I think that you're kind of pointing at two different things which is like the community producing events

obviously will never go away or if it does it will take a long time. The organization

suffering a critical collapse. I have no idea. I don't know when that is. I don't know what their budget is. But it's totally possible. Seeing 20 million in the hole is not like a great look. But you know I don't I don't know what it is to run an organization that large. Like I've worked at at a bunch of nonprofits and they all had financial difficulties and all were too dependent on money. That is a big question mark if you're going to get every year. And the second the economy turns it. They all f******

into a wall

because they don't have other ways of making money.

You know, if it's all like there it's all donations and it's all ticket sales and that's it. And both of those things can really really wildly even if for some reason all of us started to believe that it would always be sold out. Um

so yeah, it's a big who knows. Uh

yeah. Yeah, I guess all going to see. But um definitely this year we were joking around being like you know one year being too hot, one year being too cold. This year was kind of the Goldilocks year. I mean uh I'm

sure that will influence

year was so nice.

Yeah. Yeah. But ah I mean Perhaps that will influence some people, but I guess there's there's so many unknowns. I mean, like we'll we'll see what happens with Burning Man, but I don't know. Anyway, like we're back to uh like my show uh or the you know, like the like this seems to be like a a continuing like passion for you, you know, and you you love it and so like you can you see just it's like oh I mean the rest of your life it's like I mean like what place does Bernie man have like you know in your life?

I I mean, so this podcast that I've been doing for 9 10 years now, uh, really shifted how prevalent it is in my life.

And Rex being my partner had really shifted how prevalent it is in my life. Um, I always give myself the out of if if it stops being fun, if it starts being too anxiety provoking, like I but I I want to be a part of this community for the rest of my life. If that involves or or sanctioned tickets, that'd be great. If it doesn't, I'm not concerned about losing my access to my community. Um, partially because through through the things that I've learned through volunteering, I'm now a community organizer myself. You know, we bring people together, we make events happen. This is, you know, we know how to do this. So, like, while I would be sad for all the people who are employed at Burning Man, Um because they're all really cool. That's like a a great thing about kind of being on the inside is like all the employees are just amazing. They're like smart, amazing, passionate, creative, funny, kind people that, you know, are really give a s*** about what they're doing and it would be sad for them. But the organization itself is is a container that grew up through the capitalistic system to hold the event to get the permit. It's not the thing itself.

Yeah.

And the thing itself is that big rudderless ship that you can't stop on a dime. It's not going to turn fast. It's just going to keep going. Um

and I think that is what you like I hear you saying. It's like that is the the community that that is I mean for me I I don't know. I kind of I call it the connection

you know and it's uh you know like what is a burner and like what is the Burning Man experience and this and that. It's like yeah it's like in it I mean it's incredible things. I mean uh uh it also another thing that um I was talking to Chef Juke about and it's like something I didn't even consider and he's he's been writing a piece and just the the importance of like like awe you know and and inspiration

you know uh and I was like and it really connected with me and it's just like yeah you know like uh just I mean some of us we're just we get like so jaded whether it's like oh I'm a longtime burner you're like an old or whatever you know it's like been there done that you know but just to see something and just like I've I've never seen that before. I then get inspired was like, you know what, I could do that or I could do better, you know?

I mean, I see stuff I've never seen before every year at Burning Man. Like, it's

I, you know, I try to be jaded about it, but I love it a lot. And obviously because I'm willing to put a whole bunch of time and energy and effort into it.

Yeah.

And like it's kind of a self-reflexive defensiveness to be jaded. about it simply because it's obnoxious to be uh on cloud9 about it all the time.

Uh and it's also the flaws in it are glaring

and it's also, you know, and the the pain that happens in it too is glaring. You know, it is a very complex and not totally kind and straightforward system. It's just so much better than being crushed under capitalism. It's just just so nice to be able to like step out of it even in a makebelieve laring kind of way for a couple of weeks. Um it's so renewing to my soul and like

but then it continues on in your life too, right? I mean not just the podcast but people in your community or regionals and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. I I go to regionals. We had our own little regional during the COVID times um where we would go do camping trips with our friends um and You know, that was really lovely. But there's nothing quite like how interesting it is, how complex it is to be working in such large groups of people. Like I am I am nominally in in charge of a camp that is too many people for me to hold in my head, you know? Like that's a really interesting engagement um with community that I wouldn't really have an opportunity to do else. where um and it's not my job to get them to do anything, you know, it's not to produce anything. It's to make their camping trip a little bit easier,

like, you know, and and that feels uh like such a privilege to have uh something that I'm doing that is just to help out the people of my community have a better time. And like, you know, there's a lot of opportunities for that outside of Burning Man and outside of the Burning Man organization, but I haven't found any like communities like that where I just feel um I feel like it's so worthwhile to put my time and energy and effort into them and and and I'm so welcome in them and feel so at home around the you know these great weirdos that we all are. Um

yeah.

Yeah. Well, I I don't know. I I think we kind of forge this connection and we forge this bond like you know like through going out to the desert and through like the the different the 10 principles, you know, like I I still kind of see the 10 principles as like a recipe that gets you to this place where like random strangers will have like in incredible intense connection like lifelong like connections, you know.

Yeah. But like an airport bar can do that. Like it's

Oh, yeah. It could be anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Uh I don't know. The 10 principles are I I think they're a great way to summarize something that is unsumarizable. Um and I sometimes at the simplicity and preachiness that they tend to seem to hold even always said these descriptive not prescriptive and you know

yeah I don't like them as just like like you know like these are ten commandments or like princ I mean they're principles you know but like it's not like a dogma like I've always looked at as like that's no that's a recipe to get to the good thing that's hard to define you know like it's like everybody has their own like for me it's it's I I call it something called the connection you know, this is like like we're all connected and it's just like that to me that's the great gift of the playa, you know, and it it it bears fruit in like every which different way. But then also like I said like with Jeff Juke, you know, he was just like, "Oh yeah, but then there's also awe and there's also inspiration, you know, like I mean there's there's no one you can't just come with one one word like this is what it's about, baby." But I don't know. I I feel like just that's what kind of, you know, I've been away for like a number of years and came back and it's like and what is it? It's like yeah it is family it's friends you know it's connections you know but anyway um let me go a little over an hour but uh this has been an awesome interview like thanks Beth so anyway um Beth is is uh one of the hosts of Accuracy third podcast a wonderful Bernie man podcast how many years you guys been again.

Nine 10.

Nine or 10? I mean, so what episode number are you guys up to? Like 10 and something.

Yeah, let me look.

Well, DJ would be annoyed at me for not knowing this.

Oh, yeah. And I don't even have the numbers because we labeled them by number of the seasons, but we stayed in season five through all of CO.

So, season Five is

5a 5 years,

right? It's from the end of uh 2019 to the end of play, end of Burning Man 2022. So, three years in one season, but we're on we're starting uh season 8 um here at the beginning of the year. We release an episode every two weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Um you know, we interview everyone and anyone who has been to Burning Man or regional event. Um, our goal is to find a way to capture some of the stuff that's out there. As uh like historians of Burning Man, it's like it can be so easy to misunderstand what it is when all you're seeing is

Oh, yeah.

Um, pictures often lean towards like I had a friend who was coming out and she's like 42 and she was like, "Am I going to be the oldest person there?" And I'm like, "urning man is for the old." Like you like you can't You can't Google Burning Band, look at pictures, and think I don't belong there. So, I think that one of the goals of our podcast is to allow all of these different people from different walks of life who do Burning Man in different ways really talk about their experiences

so that people who are thinking about it or wondering about it can know that, yeah, actually it is for you introverted engineer guy. Yes, it's actually for you socially awkward autistic person. Yeah. actually is for you nerdy geeky like weirdo. It is not pretty hot cool people dancing. Uh even though you can definitely find that.

Um

it's it's for real weirdos. And uh I think that conversations is probably the best way to show that. Uh

you can't really capture it in a photo.

Well, it's funny because like Bernie man historically has never had a marketing department, right? You know, like I mean they had a minister of propag Panda.

Wow.

They they pick weird titles for stuff.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, but they they've never like paid like for like advertisement. They've never had to like, you know, like I mean there was it it was always like word of mouth like Bernie man was was like like a thing, right? You know, so

yeah. f***. I think I just forgot my train of thought there. But no, I mean it's like it's they've never uh had to like go out there like and and promote themselves but like oh yeah like but like we were talking about before like the media it's like if it bleeds it leads it's like you know they're going to focus on it rains it's a catastrophic event people stuck at Burning Man they may have to eat themselves but when the reality the story that comes out was like that was like one of the most like communal efforty kind of experience times as I've heard I wasn't there you know but people said like it was magical it was a magical experience of people coming together and sharing and it was kind of like people like This was like a throwback to like an older time like when you know there was more participation or a communal effort or people just like randomly like helping each other out, you know. So, um yeah. No, I mean I think your podcast is like a great service because like I said like Bernie man doesn't have a marketing department and like you know the media comes out and it's just it's like oh you know doom and gloom. It's like like you know your show my show it's like it's like no these are real people. These are real stories you know. I mean people from like various communities, you know, just be like, "Hey, you know, it's like you're welcome here." It's like you could be young, you could be old, you could be of a different race or an ethnicity or, you know, with p whatever persuasion or a different country, you know, it like it's it's not with as portrayed in the media. And like we said, like Bernie man's not doesn't have a marketing department, you know, they're not going to come out say these things, but uh I don't know.

Well, now they're buying Instagram ads, so we'll see. Maybe they will have a marketing department here in a minute. Yeah. I don't know. I I kind of think that I mean being a nonprofit like they could be like like a membership based or or or like kind of like an NPR kind of thing, you know? I mean, it seems like they're sort of halfway to that, but I don't know. Anyway, those are topics for another day. I mean, it was funny. I was like in my head I jokingly I had an idea just for like another podcast, you know, like I always think of just like what would be different like what did people It was like, "What about this week in Burning Man?" Like, all you have to do is just follow stuff on social media and just be like, "What happened this week?" You know, I mean, there's been plenty of things happening. But anyway, uh so if anybody wants to contact you or the show, do you have like uh

Oh, yeah. You can uh reach out uh to us if you'd like to be interviewed. Anyone who has been can come on the podcast. We do phone call interviews and we do do local interviews in sunny Oakland, California. So, if you're one of our Bay Area burners or come into town for any reason, we love doing interviews in person. We built a studio in D-Day's backyard. It's really cute. Um, come. We will get you drunk and or stoned and or sober, whatever you prefer. Um, but you can reach out to us at accuracygmail.com. All all spelled out one word, accuracy@gmail.com.

All right. Well, thank you, Thank you so much.

Absolutely. It was really lovely talking to you, Andy.

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