EP 14 Yoms

Meet the veteran Burning Man participant from the UK known as Yoms. The conversation explores how Yoms transitioned from an outsider to a deeply committed community leader after a serendipitous encounter with a television broadcast about the event in the late 1990s. Central to the narrative is Yoms’s extensive work in bridging the desert culture with the outside world, specifically through his role in Media Mecca and his ambitious project, We Are From Dust, which aimed to install large-scale Burning Man art in public spaces like Venice and San Pablo Harbor. The dialogue serves to highlight the transformative power of radical creativity and the enduring impact of a global community that prioritizes artistic expression and mutual trust over traditional societal structures.

In more recent years Yoms has been working on some film projects including Breathe, Clockwork Watch, and his new project Age Of Quorum. This last project he is working on right now and he can use your help to complete it. Please help by contributing to the fundraising effort to help complete this film by going to https://gofund.me/ed6403ef and thank you for contributing!

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello, this is Andy and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. Blimey that Andy? Today our guest is Yoms all the way from the UK. Welcome.

Thank you.

So, uh this is a little bit of a blind date for both me and you. So, um uh our friends uh mutual friends Nurse and Jenny K have uh kind of put us together, but uh they suggested you and uh uh welcome to my show. So, uh to begin with, I just want to get a a sense of like what your Burning Man experience is. So, uh, like what was your first year? What what led you to Burning Man?

Uh, my first year was 98. What led me to Burning Man was I guess started a couple of years before.

Okay.

And at that point, I worked at the BBC and I just finished a night shift or a day a long day shift.

Okay.

And I got home late. on a Sunday night, put the television on and there was this weird stuff going off. It just looked so bizarre. You had this bus that was full of people and was decorated in a rather bizarre way, tearing through what looked like initially a beach, but no, this was a desert and lots of bright lights and lots of insanity. And I think there were broadcasting from the van at the time and I switched to the radio off and I went to bed and I lay in bed about 5 10 minutes and I just jumped up and cuz initially I I just watching this this stuff I I thought what a bunch of weirdos, what a bunch of losers, a bunch of freaks went to bed and then I got up and I grabbed a pen and a piece of paper and kept my fingers crossed that whatever it was I had seen previously was still on television and I rushed back into the living room and I sat there till the credits came up and they said Burning Man and at that point I I worked out that I was being a bit presumptuous. This was my tribe. This is the tribe I've been looking for all my life.

You got that just from uh this this one little video you're watching or

Yeah, the one for television show. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. I just realized I was being judgmental. I was being, you know, a lot of the a lot of the things that had been drilled into me at boarding school and my parents and, you know, society. I I just realized that that's had given me my first impression, my first reaction. And on lying in bed trying to sleep. It played on my mind to a point that I realized these are my people. Why was I running from them? So that's how that's how I first heard about this thing in the desert called Burning Man.

Wow. That's a kind of love at first sight. I mean that's pretty pretty strong

almost. I guess if if the first part of it is I don't like you I think you're horrible that you turn around and say oh my god Not. She's the one.

I've often heard people say that about me.

You're not.

Well, we only just met.

But you No, I mean, so that you were living in England. You said you're working with the BBC. You just you saw the the credits. You saw Burning Man. Like, uh, how did you connect to it? Like, did you just like research it, buy a ticket, just travel out to Nevada by yourself, or did you go with any anybody? I I took the long route. It took me about almost about 2 years. Um I'd never been to Burning Man. I mean, I had never been to America at that point. And um I I did a lot of research. I was flabbergasted by the fact that this was a a possibly one of the first communities that had that we spend 51 weeks of the year engaging, collaborating, concepting, interacting online before any other event did at the time. In fact, 9798.

Yeah. Like late 90s. I mean, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They were the first Ben was the first I learned about bulletin board. and and you know online communities and little gatherings that were mainly happening in America at the time. So I did my research into that and I delved deeper and the further I delved the more I understood about this crazy sort of thing. So I I put a a proposal together and I approached my news editor at the time time and I said, "Uh, look, this is one of the festivals, the sort of festival you never heard of. This whole internet thing that everyone's yelling about. These guys use it to to organize, to mobilize, to create, to concept, and to deliver. And there's a certain amount of trust that you never find in any other event in the world where you're going into the desert and know that the person that you've been interacting with for the 51 weeks is going to turn up with what they said they were going to turn up with. So, you're not just going to be left high and dry in the desert. You know, these are people that you trust implicitly. You know, you've all collaborated. You've all thrown you've given money to people for something that you don't know where they'll ever get made. People you've never met before. Uh and then look at what they create for that one week. And um my editor said, "Okay, that sounds really, really good." Um We're not going to send a camera crew out. Right. My heart sank. Said, "But we're going to send you on a course to operate a camera. We are not going to give you any equipment from the pool of equipment we have here. You are going to go out and hire your own equipment and then we're going to pay your costs and we're going to you can go and document this thing. Um, and that's how how I found my way out to the desert.

So they you you talk to them and like, "Oh, there's this crazy thing out in the desert. I want to go." And they're like, "Okay, fine. We'll do it in the shoestring budget, but only you can go."

Yeah, that's it. But then on top of that, I was able to find three other people. Two I'd never met before who were interested in this. And the story I sold was, we're taking someone, okay, yes, I've never been to America. I've never been to Birmingham, but we're going to take these two people, um, a young art student and a photographer, and I'm going to document them and their whole journey into the desert for a piece on BBC. And they said, "Yeah, that's that sounds good." So, it's not me they're looking at. It's it's them. I said, "Yeah." I said, "Perfect." Um, so rallied the troops. Neither of us had ever been to America. We were all just out there flailing in the wind. I think maybe one of them probably had as a photographer, but there was so much more to it than than just getting out to the desert. There was this whole dynamic of of people who hired this motor home and and never actually even as much as spent an evening together.

So, you weren't thinking this Hunter S. Thompsones like, you know, going out to the Nevada, some like debaucherous thing. I mean, I'm not sure if that's what your bosses thought, but I mean,

the bosses didn't, but the team I traveled with did. And you you you're probably the first person who who reference Hunter

really

cuz there was a big element of that in the whole thing. There were journals, there was me, my filming, um, lots of talk, lots of other stuff that you would associate with Hunter and his escapades. This is what, uh, 2000 or so?

No, this is 98.

Oh. Oh, you first 98. So you first heard about it in what 96 or something because you said it was like about a two year

96 96 97. Yeah.

Okay.

It took a while to convince my editor.

So then what happened after you came back and did you file your story and how did it how do you how the story got got shown on the it was in fact it was um the first time uh that a story of that kind had been shown and from what I gather um It was the report of the feature was um a beautiful depiction of what the desert was, what the event was at the time, and one that Larry Harvey thought really hit it on the head.

Wow. And so I I take it that wasn't your last time going. I mean, how many times have you been since?

I think I've been about 21 times.

Wow. And have you uh gotten in involved or like what is uh what has your Burning Man experience been?

Well, quite quite uh deep and within about a year I had joined the media team of Burning Man and I think I was with them for about 18 years.

Oh, media mecca.

Yeah, Media Mecca. Um I also have have I guess I could say have or had depends on how you look at it a show on BMIR and um I've launched one or two camps on the plier and then I've been involved in maybe one or two art projects.

Wow. And uh when was the last year you went? about three years ago. Two, three years ago.

Oh, okay. So, you did uh postcoid or was 19?

I did postcoid. I think I did postcoid

like 22.

Yes, I did.

Yes, I did.

The hot year or the wet year?

Yeah, the hot year was my last year.

Ah, okay. Yeah, this year was actually my first year back after what 13 years or so. It's like a nice nice gap. Uhhuh.

Took some time to raise my son,

but uh

I mean I I tell people there's the play will always be there.

Oh, exactly. Exactly.

Um so what about now? Like do you think you're going to go back again?

Yes.

I most definitely am. Um I've already started planning. I I bought I bought a shift pod.

Ah. Um the previous years I've gone my journey's been quite bizarre. I had about four far five years of an RV then I moved into tent thinking that okay all my friends who kept on teasing me that I was doing plier light I thought yes I'll be in a tent with them. Uh and the whether the plier flattened my tent year after year. Then I bought an Airstream and that gave me the security and the the comfort that I really really loved. Um but then the PL player and the conditions tried killing my Airstream. So I put the Airstream into having it restored. Then I bought a motor home, a junk motor home that I bought off a friend that did beautifully well up to a point where I realized it needed a lot more attention. So I gave that to another burn I gave it away. Uh then after taking my break and this year I am going to go back and I'm going back into a tent or more or less a shift pod. Uh there was a sale earlier on and I decided to buy one and I've started planning buying bits through the year as opposed to the big expense at the end.

Yeah, that's the way to do it with the shift pod. I mean, that's that's the king of tents there. I mean, they're they're pretty expensive.

I hope though, cuz I don't camp light.

No, I mean, those are tents you can actually put an air conditioner in, right?

Yes, you can.

Yeah.

Yeah. I got one of the minis cuz it's just me.

So, yeah. But it'd be fine.

Yeah. I've actually always only been in a tent. Uh sometimes it's been a very tiny twoperson tent with like me and my brother who was snoring. That's why it kind of gets to me now like I after 13 years of hearing like oh people put air conditioners like in tents like like really

well the technology evolved to a point and they I say evolved not just in in the ability and the capacity of these things but the durability and the the fact that they're a bit more flexible and offer you a bit more um ways of integrating them into your setup. That bit I like.

Yeah. Yeah. It's also really good like if you if your camp where you're set up if you have like extra shade on top of that like all those flat top like shade structures

you you have to have a secondary shade and I believe the the hot year was the year where secondary straight became sh secondary shade. became irrelevant because the secondary shade seemed as if you actually had no shade.

Oh, really?

So freaking hot. But people were running around like headless chicken un uncertain as to what to do next cuz there was nowhere to turn. Your secondary shade was baking you.

Wow. So if you go back, are you thinking about going back this year 2025?

Yes, definitely.

Yeah. Are you going to be part of media mecca or

I step I stepped away from Mecca. Um when I I kind of worked out that my my what I had to offer was no longer um relevant and required. And uh and I created a an offshoot of um my Burning Man, my main Burning Man interest in the outside world, which which I decided to pursue. Uh, and I think to a certain degree that may have gone against the grain of what was deemed acceptable.

Is that the the we are from dust?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Cuz I was just uh starting to like look at that a little bit. So, what what is that or are you still doing that?

Um, we are just about to fold. Um, we are from dust came about in 2015 when uh I went to the Venice bianale and I looked at all the art there and it was beautiful.

Every single nation rocks up with what they believe to be the best art artistic representation of or manifestation of their culture of their country. And I was wandering around and I looked at some of this stuff. I said, "Christ almighty, you should see my city. My city doesn't deal in countries and nationalities and stuff. We deal as a community. We bring our best to the table every year, not every two years." Um, and then I saw an exhibit by a guy called Ibrahim Mahama. He's a Ghanaian artist and he covered this almost as a two 300 meter long corridor in burlap sacks, hessant sachs and that represented the cocoa that had been you know transported out of out of Africa to to to you know came back to slave trade to everything. It was just amazing

and I just said you know what we have to find a way of sharing the beauty and the magnificence that we have in the desert. We have to find a way of sharing it with people who don't want to make that trip into the desert, who can't afford the the cost of the time and the discomfort. We have to find a way of taking that thing that's broken so many of our brains and inspired so many different things. We've got to take that into the world and put it in places that have never seen that sort of stuff. Not in museums, you know. not in in town centers but in places that will encourage them to explore and investigate new areas in their community. Um so we created a we are from dust and it was a it was a tumultuous start. Um we decided we were going to take it to the bonal. Um a fellow burner loved not going to mention names, loved what we were trying to do and um gave us a sizable amount of money which we went and we hired an island in the Venice lagoon where we were going to showcase a whole bunch of art.

Wow.

We um we paid an architect to come up with a plan. and we engage someone to deal with cuz when you're dealing with Venice, you're you're you're dealing with so many other institutions. We had to pay someone to engage with the the mayor's office, the heritage office, the waterways office, um the cultural office, the bonale itself, all of those things that we we we spent a year planning this and

wow

I I was traveling to Venice regularly. Um we got a whole bunch of artists together to try doing this. Um, we got turned down for various reasons. I that can't go into detail about why or how, but it's it set me back a lot. And um,

are these like all Burning Man artists?

Are these all Bernie man artists? Like people who've like brought out to the artist?

Yeah.

Yeah. And they they came together and they were I mean they're super genous. of them to to trust me to try doing this. Um, we kind of hoped we get the a nod from the organization, but it didn't quite happen. It was it I guess I was being presumptuous a point to think that the organization would be involved in that. And for me personally, I kind of felt Burning Man's main calling card was art. You could have photographs from gigs all around the world. Oh wow, look at that photograph. They're so happy. Oh my god, look at those costumes. Oh my god. Oh wow, what an amazing environment. And then what the hell is that? Well, that's a piece of art. What? That big? Yeah, you can climb it. Yeah, you know, that was for me Burning Man.

And I kind of felt that Burning Man's main calling card was art. And we wanted to take that calling card out into the world, which was something the organization wasn't doing.

Well, the Venice Spinoli too. I mean it's probably one of the the the top arts festival or you know uh showcases in the world. I'm sure for Bernie Bid. I mean

that's I'm sure that's probably something they' never quite ever thought of like what we're going to go to the bonal like

well I mean the other part which I think irked a lot of people was the fact that you have to pay to get in the bonal. We hired an island. We had we'd engag engaged with the local um transport so that we could bring people to our island and it was going to be free and the binal closed at about 4 5:00 in the evening and we were going to rock up till midnight.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think and when we were turned down we had the option of doing it on our own. And I just said, "It's going to be like a whole bunch of kids who have not been allowed into a party." And then they set up outside with a boom box and a and a and packs of beer and said, "f*** you, lot. We got to do our own thing." And I just thought, "That's not the image I want of what this project represents." So we we bowed. Um and then while I was trying to fund raise for for Venice, I bumped into um dear dear friend and someone who who who who just one of the most generous people um in the world. Uh his name is Rob F. And Rob at that point was buying a chunk of land in just outside San Francisco. Um it was It's it's at that point I couldn't quite I couldn't quite get my head around what what was what what it was, you know.

Okay.

Um we met at at um the autominal gathering and um he said, "Hey, yeah, I heard about what you're doing. Look, I've uh I've got this this piece of land, you know, that we're buying." I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." I said, "So, um this Venice thing, you know, when you're done, you should come out and hang with us." And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rob point bought San Pablo Harbor, a huge chunk of land in outside San Francisco. Amazing place. And over time, I remember the following year I went back to the plier and we ran into him and he said, "Yeah, y still got that land. We now done the deal." And I said, "Um, well, Venice didn't happen. said, "Yeah." I said, "But my place is available

and we formed a a partnership there that we would provide art and he was going to support us and as I said, super freaking generous."

Mhm.

Um, and over time we've hosted possibly one of the few to free exhibitions of Burning Man art in that part of the world where the art has transformed a place that was a nogo area even for the police.

Really? Yeah. It's transformed. I mean, we we had a dream. We had a shared vision. Basically, you have a place that no one wanted to go near. And now I mean I can remember having a phone call from Rob on a Sunday. It was late about 8 9:00 p.m. here um around midday in California and he phoned and said, "Yoms, there is a 1 to 2 mile traffic jam of people trying to get into the harbor."

No way.

The At one point people just left their cars and walked cuz they had a restaurant there. You had art by Kate Rodenbush and Michael Christian, by Paige Chashner, the Ferguson's, you know, by by Peter Hazel that you just wander around and if you couldn't get if you couldn't get a a a seat at the restaurant, you could just have your own picnic and just sit. And I remember walking around this place and just bumping into people and they're looking at something like that is amazing, isn't it? Say, "Yeah, it is." And next thing you know, you're talking about stuff that you never would have expected with someone you never met. A bit like you do on the plier.

Oh, yeah.

And that was what we are from Dust set out to do. We've hosted art in not just there. Uh we've played stuff in um Salt Lake City and we have at least a five, sixy year, actually six, sevenyear space in Bristol in the UK where we spent the best part of 80 to 90k bringing art over from the US.

Wow.

That been on the fire, placing it there, including a year where we funded an artist to create a piece during the COVID years in the knowledge that There was a whole lot of stuff the artist couldn't do herself. So, she would have to hire a premises, which meant money went to the premises owner, which was a workshop, who was a burner. Money went to the fabricators, who were also burners, and we've worked out how that money trickled all the way down during the pandemic and kept people working.

Wow, that's incredible. So, these are more like permanent installations, though. These aren't just like temporary exhibitions. They are permanent. I mean, you one thing I learned and this was from some seasoned artists like Kate Roder Bush and Michael Christian. Never go into a situation like that asking for permanence. Always say it's temporary. The pieces have been there for the best part of 8, nine years. They're still temporary. That's okay. I mean, how big are these pieces?

Yeah, these are big. These are big big big p big pieces, you know, really really awesome awesome kind of chunks of of Burning Man um Burning Man art. Um, you know, it's it's just I mean, I don't know whether you ever saw um um I mean One of the other artists who we brought a piece over was Andrea Greenley's. Andrea did a a big perspect

um

that we we had over here. Um you have the um the Peter Hazel um noticus which is this 70 foot ceramic crocodile.

Yeah.

Big enough for at least a 5'10 person to stand in its mouth. You know it's that big. wide mild wide open. Um Kate Rodenbush um generously let us um place um future's past which was a early Burning Man piece which is looking at nature and technology and the the cross-pollination of those two things and what it would create. These these are pieces that required heavy heavy machinery to get them in place. Uh I mean neoticus Nautica's I mean there's a video online of how this big Arctic lorry navigated the the windy path you know it was shot by drone how it navigated the windy path of getting it into into place huge thing you know so yeah big pieces of art uh and some small you know it wasn't always big sometimes you can have the most intricate small little piece that has you staring at it and your mind drifts into other things and to and hopefully some creative things or problem solving things.

So you think are you still planning on trying to create some other spaces where you could bring some art to other places in the world?

No, we we ran into difficulties with funding over after the COVID period and and I sincerely don't think things have kind of improved on the plus side. Well, on the plus side, um, being one of the first nonprofit institutions or bodies to to push this forward, we now have at least four or five that I know about who are trying or doing what we we set out to do. And truth be told, I mean, I had I've worked with um Candace Lair and Will Chase.

Mhm.

You know, um, and other other other people um in in you know in the states but running something like this from the UK is fair almost impossible you know it is almost impossible I I'm amazed it's quite quite ambitious that you achieved what you've achieved incredible

but it was there to be done and I guess put another way it was I needed to show that it could be done. We needed to step out. And one of the things I actually have said to people about the team, you know, um who who who managed this uh and some people joined us and some people kind of left and there were there were there were in typical Burning Man styles creative disagreements. Um you know, we we set out to do something very very different. We set out to really change the world outside the the that orange fence. You know, we it is it is it was achieved. Um and with no finance to to keep things going and to see other people inspired by what we had done. it was time to close shop and just bow, you know, and step and step back. And uh I mean much respect to everyone who who was involved in in getting getting this thing going, but also when you look at the team, Panacea, myself, Will Chase, um and the people who were part of it early on, cumulatively we had put I think at least three years three four years ago we we had put more than a hundred um 100 years into helping shape Burning Man into what it is today.

Wow.

You know, you're talking about three senior mavens of the media team. When I joined, we were more or less the voice, you know, we engage with the community. We engage with all the press. We told the press and encourage them to find their stories ahead of time. Find, you know, who you who who's coming to Berdiman from your local community. Use their story and their journey as a basis of your article. So, you've know you're coming to the desert and you've made all those contacts. There were situations on the plier that involved law enforcement and heated heated discuss and heated situations with federal agents and stuff that the media team was involved in helping to deescalate without anyone on the plier knowing about them. That was our job, you know, and we were the people who put we are from dust together and it just seemed a little bit strange that with that sort of knowledge and that sort of trust within the organization, we weren't able to forge a permanent or a decent relationship through we are from dust.

And did you guys like interface with the local regional groups to work with them?

Well, yes. Um my local regional group was Euroburners. Um I was one of the founders. The found I even came up with the name Euroburners. Um I set up the Burning Man de compression. The London decompression.

Oh wow.

Uh as a forefather of Burning Man, I helped instigate Santa Con in London. Uh I I came up with um Karta Nelson and I on the plier in 91 came up with the idea of a festival in Europe and I am one of two people the founders of an event in Europe called Nowhere which is now in its 20someth year. I created and meets nowhere with the team.

Wow. That's in Spain, right?

Yeah, that's in Spain. So, yeah, we've I was I mean, I've always been involved in in a lot of the local stuff until the politics got a little bit crazy and I I realized I should step back and just let that do its own thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I founded the Hawaii Regional Group in 2002 and did that for about 10 years and then Yeah. You know, life intrudes. My son was getting older, but now that he's like uh 16 and a half and starting to think about, oh, maybe I'll bring him to the playa this year, you know, like

that sounds good. I didn't I was kind of wondering that was puzzling cuz you said you were going to send a Zoom link and I said 8:00 a.m. and you said it was 10 p.m. I was kind of wondering and I woke up about an hour or two hours ago and I hadn't had the Zoom link and then my mind kind of drifted off of thinking where is what's west what's more west than California you know and that was we were thinking okay so it's not Australia cuz that's the other way around it's not New Zealand and I hadn't quite placed Hawaii you guys had common m there for a while she's still there yeah she's still here without borders

oh yeah yeah yeah I was uh wanted to have her on the show but uh she she declined for her own reasons you know

well Common I think common had a similar a similar experience with the organization that I did.

Well, let's see. Okay, now let's can move on to our next portion of this uh my guest background. So, uh so so where does your story begin? Like uh what led you to Burning Man? Like uh well well where did it all start? Where did you grow up?

Um grew up in in the place called Little H. which is right by the sea um near Brighton over here in the UK.

Okay.

And um I grew up with foster parents and then um then I went to Nigeria with my real with my mom um where I stayed for a few years. I went to

a boarding school. Um my boarding school was a little bit weird, I think.

What was that like?

It was really intense. I didn't speak the language. Um It was a rural sort of place, but it was one of these Ivy League places, you know. Um I I kind of feel that if if something horrible would happen during the visiting days, the visiting day um with where all the parents would be and you'd Africa and parts of Asia would have lost would would have lost you know the the the the top class of their society, you know, be it ministers, world leaders, you know, the whole lot. I mean, it was one of those places and um currently some of my my classmates are are running running institutions and countries around the world.

Wow.

Um and then I started a job as a as a after college, I guess, after school. Um

where did you go to school?

Um well, I was still in Nigeria at this point.

Okay.

I I fell out with my dad.

Um dad was one of these authoritarians. Um never quite understood and it understood him and and truth be told, you know, um if you don't grow up with your parents and when you finally do start living with them, they have their own little gig going on. Be it you know the ways to do things and all the rest. And cuz that didn't quite gel with me. I never got on with my my my dad or my my mom. Um so I uh I um went out and got a job. I got a job on a local radio station uh which upset my dad immensely. Um and I just got my enough money together, packed my bag and said I'm going back to London, you know. And I was in my teenage uh teenage years at that point. here and now.

So you went back to London,

got back into DJing on radio. Um, did a did a m well did a degree in journalism and did a master's degree in interactive multimedia and the interactive multimedia aspect of it um was what led me to understand the communication channels used by the Burning Man community, which was what led me to I was able to convince my editor, you know, to let me come out to the desert cuz he said, "You know this s***." I said, "Of course I know that. Look at the look at what they're creating. They've not met each other before. They're doing all this online this whole internet web, you know, interweb interweb thing. Pretty amazing." Um, yeah. And you know what? When I came out to the desert first year, I met so many people who have shaped this planet, so many of them. It's just ridiculous really. The brains that were going to Burning Man in the very first year have molded it into what it is now.

Well, it's a constant evolution also like new when new brains come in and

yes, other ones.

But then the new brains are inspired by the previous lot, you know. I mean, one of the reasons why when I when I did my master is um I was offered a choice. You can either go down the the creative route and and you know eulogize and philosophize about the the future and you know you become almost like a futurist or you could become one of the programmers and I just said uh I'm not going to do that programming thing. So yeah, I spent about two years on this masters and I have to keep on buying these frigin books. Well, it's 500 pages long of coding and this and that. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I could just hang out and watch the technology come and go, see how it can be used and actually develop concepts and ideas based on that knowledge and that foresight. I said, "Yeah, and that doesn't include buying any of these books." Said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, I'll take that route." You know, I didn't I wasn't I didn't want to be in a situation where a lot of these smart young kids come out and rewrite the whole f****** code and then I'm having to chase and buy books again.

No, let the smart guys come along. I will do stuff that will hopefully inspire them and we can we can live happily ever after.

So, are you still in journalism? You still in uh BBC?

No, I moved on. I Oh, God. My career just taken a weird turn. Um, I quit journalism. I went on to create reality TV formats.

Um, this was in the early 2000s. I created a couple. Uh, one of them picked up the probably one of the very prestigious awards um, over here in the UK. Uh, it was a year when Survivor and Big brother had just launched and we were all in the same category and the show I created beat them and I won.

Wow.

Um and then I wandered off into the wilderness for a short while cuz I was then asked to create a show similar to Big Brother and I said why would I create something that really my peers and the industry looked at and thought what I created was a lot better. You know it was almost derivative of this had done. I said, "No, not doing that." So, I wandered off for about three years. I came back and I wrote or co-wrote my first feature film, which was an interactive an interactive show that uh broken into three parts and it was probably one of the first films to give the public an audience an opportunity to step into the drama and to become part of the drama. It's very burning. man certain degree. The first part was shot as a solid chunk. The second part had a 30% gap and the third part had a 40% gap. And in between each episode released weekly, we did the first part with Yahoo. I think um in between each part, we hosted several live events where there were cameras and the actors. And within two or three days, we'd edited those into the second part. So, you would find yourself in the film. And because it was a police, it was an investigation. Um, I'll give you an example. We had a party that was publicized all over the place. Um, people had to buy tickets, they had to register email addresses. Um, there was a fight scene, a really horrific fight scene that we staged. Um, a day after the party, we chose about eight people that we'd seen that were active at the gig. It was a master ball. So, we phoned them up using this current technology that we're actually on now, uh Zoom, um recorded the conversations. So, um okay. So, Andy, um you this is um Detective John Franks from the police force. Um I gather you went to um Pleasure Principles on Friday. Yes, I did. Good. This is part of a police investigation. Um, are you near your computer right now? Yes, I am. Um, could you check your email? Yes. You this you got an email from us? Yes. And what does it show? It shows me entering. Good. That places you at a crime scene. Please tell us what you saw. So, we're able to edit film the this conversation going on, but able to use that segment within the drama,

you know, and we built that's how we did it. So, people found themselves helping the police along with the investigation, but also within the drama. Um, you could because it was released online. Um, it launched at London Film Festival, but it was also released online. You could freeze frame, get telephone numbers, addresses, um, various things like that. Phone the numbers and depending on where the character was at that precise point, they could answer the phone. They could either the phone if it was a Friday night could the police officer who had a drink probably could answer the phone drunk, you know, and you could talk to him, you know. So the whole two 3 week thing was built on a spreadsheet where hour by hour we knew what the characters were doing. So sometimes you would have to leave a message cuz within the drama the character was asleep or he was in in you know interviewing somebody. Um so I did that that did quite well.

Wow.

Um

and the past 10 years I've been I've taken that the whole concept and I've I I got a little bit burnt with the film. People said it relied too much on technology and the film was called Breathe, by the way. Uh and it was about a police investigation into a series of unexplained deaths. Uh and you can find it online.

Okay.

Look it up. Yeah.

And and um the past 10 11 years I have been publishing graphic novels um steampunk graphic novel called Clockwork Watch. Um and similar thing because I got burnt on technology with Breathe. I decided I was going to write a retrofuturist story where there are there is no technology where you've got clockwork automatons who are the most basic form of mechanics but they become sentient um and What we've done is in between certain book launches we have created immersive experiences where you can interact with the characters and after those experiences the characters report back to me and then I write some of those into the next chapter of the book. So the public have also been involved in helping to tell that story. Um and the last thing that I've done I guess is the bit that I'm about to do now which is I start directing my first um film having done several um this coming Friday. Um

yeah um and it's a film about men men and mental health in this modern age um and uh it's called Age of Quorum and we we got a crowdfund going right now which has raised almost half the budget. We've got about 20K. We need another 19 to go. Well, do you want to give out the URL? Maybe if anyone listening wants to contribute.

Uh, God almighty. Um, if if anyone wants to the URL, it's going to be hard. Um, we if you if you search online for Age of Quorum or you go onto um GoFundMe, which is um a crowdfunding platform, and if you say if you type in age of forum. The the URL is I mean I'll I'll give it to you, but it's

it's um it's it's one of these convoluted

uh

edited um domains,

but

um it's called Age of Cororum.

Andorum, how do you spell Cororum? Is it quo ru?

Abs freaking lutely. Oh,

okay.

Um it's a psychological thriller about New Year's Eve and the story of a young man's New Year's Eve that goes dramatically downhill when the night becomes an opponent in a fight he must win to survive. So basically, you've got a man out on New Year's Eve where he's not just battling people. It is the night, the whole night, the whole festivity for him to actually see the light of day.

Yeah. Yeah. Trying to remember what was the name of that movie with the guy who was just trying to get home. I don't know. Sorry.

The only one that comes to mind is the Warriors. They were trying to get home.

Well, there's that one. No, but um I don't know. I'm trying to I can't remember anything. Uh it was in New York City. It was like late at night. Like everything he tried to do like you go to the subway, didn't have enough change like and then like

it's it's it's one it's one of those where where the night really is pitted against against you and everywhere you turn, you know, there's obstacles. But the the the the other part of of this for from for for for this particular story um is over here in the UK, people kind of strive to be amongst friends and family in a good space at the stroke of midnight. Well, what happens when all that goes sideways and every single turn you make to get back to your people, to get back to that place of comfort basically is blocked. And that is where the night becomes an absolute ass, an absolute b**** where you you there's just despair. Nothing's open. No one's open. No one's there to give you time of day. It's pitch black and you're far from home.

Well, okay. I think this brings me to the last part of my show. Uh the impact of Burning Man. It's like, so that's what the whole theme of my show, the shadow of the man. You know, it's like uh you know, why why do this all these years? Like what what's what impact is it you has it had? Like what's in it for you? Like why why torture yourself? Why keep going back or why involve yourself in this community? What's it mean? Yeah, we did we did this thing. I think it was started I think it was started by Candice Candace Lia.

Uhhuh.

Um it was a patch that said Burning Man ruined my life which we then took to and we've done this and when I come back this year there's going to be a new one. We've had Birmingham ruined my life. We've had Bun Ringman ruin my life. We've had I mean it's Birmingham. So this meme

Yeah. Yeah. This meme has going on. I mean last year if I had come it was going to be bunny manner in my life,

you know. Don't show that to it.

It's it's it's broken my brain. Um it's changed. If if not for Burning Man, I think I'd still be in the newsroom frustrated, disappointed. and more or less disillusioned. Um, it's opened up a new way of doing things. Uh, I I I remember the day I turned around and I I said, "If you if you if you criticize us, you're being judgmental. If you say we're a bunch of freaks, you're being judgmental." The only people who can say we're freaks who are people who've been to Burning Man, who understand what we are, who we are. and calling us a freak is a celebration of us collectively. Um, it's shown me that pound for pound in the right sort of environment, I could be as creative as the most ingenious mind anywhere in the world because it comes out of the people that you're with, the people who encourage you, the people who support you, the people who give you that mental bandwidth, that space for you to think, you know, it's it's not just art. It's the environment. It's the people that you're with. You say one thing and I mean, there's there's stuff that I've come up with that are just crazy. I remember a year where we're out in I think it was Mendescino with a whole bunch of burners after the burn and and we came up with this whole thing of something called the rave guard. And it was a time where there was lots of lots of very strong MDMA out and people used to gun and bite their jaws and all the rest. And we were just talking. I said, "God, what if we created this little project called this little product called the Rave Guard, which is a gum shield like the gum shields you have in American football that you just when you've done and you instead of biting chewing your jaw, you put it in and it lights up and people come up and say, "Hey, Andy, you okay?" And you smile and you got this red glow just going, "Yeah. What a rave guard, man. You know, s*** like that, which I'm sure with the way the world has changed with Amazon and stuff, you could market that sort of thing and it would work. You'd have all these kids running around lighting their faces up with with gum shields, you know? It's like, yeah, man, he's on a rave guard, you know, just little things. Even down to down to technology. I remember the the the the the one time I think was a green man when that lunatic Elon Musk went and planted the very first Tesla, the Roadster.

Yeah.

Put it without any branding and just put it in the middle of the desert. You know, we knew that was that was that was heralding other problems further on down the line. That was fairly evident. Who's going to plunk their car in the middle as you know, it's not a showpiece, but it was a bold statement at that point, you know. Um I've met I've met people who've got more memes than third world countries. You know, um you think are the people who come to to the desert, world leaders, princes, princesses. I mean we know we know you know that our shenanigans in the desert have been discussed by Pentagon.

Yeah. You know, this went around the media team. They were they were discussing how how can our troops survive in the desert in Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, look at these guys. They go out and they do a bloody good job of it in the desert.

You know, I've I've sat and I've had I've had conversations with people from the Tea Party in Media Mecca,

the politicians in Yeah. Oh god, you you'd be so you'd be surprised, you know. Oh, he said like world leaders princesses. I mean like does it metaphorically or like literally?

No. No. No.

Really?

Yeah. I mean you have Arab states who have people out there. You have you you have you have monarchy princes from various nations and and extremely good authority. I can tell you that the UK has been represented

like monarchy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I could go into detail about so much. So, look, we the media team were more or less in the early days, we were we were the guardians of the message. I mean, there was a year when we Candace and I were out, I think it was Candace and I were out um in the morning and there was a beautiful maze that we were wandering around. when we ran into Alanis Moriceette and her boyfriend um this goth guy playing this amazing Phil Silva Penn penny flute and he was taking her through the maze at sunrise when the press rock up with their cameras we heard Alanis Moriceet's here he said yeah yeah she is but she's just gone over in that direction

you know we sent sent him off You know, you got the likes of Rosario Dawson, who I adore, who's who's out there re regularly. I mean, there you'll be so surprised. I mean, my my favorite still is the person uh who went into Bill Murray's camp.

Bill Murray really

person went into Bill Murray's camp um and um just asked for a beer and they and Murray gave him a beer, opened the can, took a swig, gave it to him and said, "No matter who you tell they're not that I believe you.

I like that, you know, and we we know we know people the people are there. I mean, I remember the year before this whole PDI thing. I knew remember the year he was there. We're in his camp drinking his vodka, you know. I know. Yeah. And and various other people. And it's it's opened my mind to the fact that it's the people you're with they open doors and not necessarily financial doors or social doors but doors in your mind. I mean why would a black guy who has more or less nothing other than to his name rock up and feel that he could create a sculpture park in the world's biggest most prestigious art event h thousands of miles away from his home. Hire an island block book an island for 8 n months. Pay for it if not for the community that I am part of that's incredible. That's incredible.

I still I can't I just that's quite the ambitious and audacious of Venice finale. But you you You did it. I mean, like you said, you

were more than

we were more than 70% there. We we even had for once we could we we could do it with sponsors. We had sponsors lined up. Um um there's a a pastor company who were going to come on board. And the idea was you come to the island, you bring your mat or your your whatever you want to sit on. There will be free food, you bring your own plates and all the rest similar to we do on the plier. There will be food. Um at that point we made a reach out to Joan Bayz to come out and to do stuff and it would be just certain and this was the twist. The people who were going to be coming for the nighttime special events would all have um a wristband of one kind or another who were meant to be locals. So we would invite cuz locals tend to leave Venice during the binale cuz it's just too much. So, we were going to have the public and invite the locals to come sit down, listen to music, wander around art, and there's food free. And that was what we we're going to create that sort of that sort of environment, the environment that we're so familiar with in the desert. You know, all you have to do is get on one of the vaporto of the boats that will just take you across the canals uh or the lagoon and drop you off and you can wander just wander and enjoy. Um how I mean look at the just jump from being a newsroom journalist into thinking you can do that. That's burning.

Yeah. Yeah. But also not just by yourself like you said like with a community of people working with you too.

Oh god. It is the community that is Burning Man for me. I've always seen Burning Man not as the organization but the the community and times when I have more or less criticized the organization. It has been because I believe there's there's a disconnect between the people who who are proper Burning Man and the people who organize the event. And they're two distinct things which is why we decided Do we are from dust? You know, we appeal to the community to help us do it, not the organization.

The organiz organization's got its hands full with trying to organize permits and organize all that lot. Little surprised they haven't got time to take the art into the outside world. Um, well, we set out to do that and I think we've inspired and encouraged other people to take it on.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of traditionally how the Very man always sort of was, you know, like they would uh Verie Man Project would be involved with like organizing everything like Black Rockck City in the desert and like we're saying the other 51 weeks of the year was more of like the the realm of like the the regionals or like Black uh Burners Without Borders or you know, but uh

I guess it's like custodians of the culture. I mean

the organizers I mean it's it's it's an interesting um It's a trade-off or you know it's like balancing act you know that they have to have to play and

well it is it is a it is a balancing act and where do you start and where does it end you know they they managing a global community of of crazies freaks weirdos and highly intelligent misfits is is a big job. It's breaking it down into regions. and let each region be autonomous is a great way to do it, you know, and you sit above that and offer guidance, you know, that is where you can't control the chaos, man.

Oh, no.

You can't.

No.

You know, and there's so much creativity and creative conflict within these respective organizations. You know, that's the nature of the beast. That is what encourages us to to kind of be with each other. Is that your cat?

Is my little fur guy.

Oh, hello. I did not know you had a a co- guest. What's your your your little baby's name?

Uh Ted. Ted is a a pure white um British shorthair who like most pure whites are deaf. He deals with vibration and sound.

Ah. He's a rescue that we No, actually he's not a rescue. He's a pedigree.

Really?

He's actually a pedigree that um we got years ago and um he he rules the house. Well, thank you so much for the interview. This has been wonderful. Um you can I don't know if you're going to go back to sleep now.

I think I might be going to Oh, I have a film to shoot next week.

There is no sleep. We I say we're trying trying as much as possible to get some more money in. Um

well, if you you point of no return, everything's in motion.

Yeah.

If there's anyone out there who who wants to who wants to contribute or throw money um at at a film about men and mental health which I think is is super important to this this modern age. Please do donate. Um

so look up age of cororum right?

Yeah qu u o r u m

uh let's see anything else. Let's see. Um if you want anyone to be able to reach you, do you have like uh a way for people to reach you?

Yeah. Um my site is yumster yo m t E R.com. Um you you actually be able to watch episodes of Breathe. Um there um you'll be able to see my the stuff I did with music cuz I had a um a drum and bass label years ago um called Tonedeaf Records. Um there's access to stuff there. Um and my whole creative professional life.

Is there a link to Age of Cororum there too?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Find Age of Corum. And looking at this, let's just have a look and see whether I did put it up. Is it there?

Well, this episode's going to come out in about a month or so. So,

good.

Yes.

Well,

you can watch the first part of my first film, which was released in 99 called Journey to the Heart of the Man.

And this was burning in its early days.

Journey.

Yeah. Journey to the heart of the man.

It's up there. I didn't realize I put it up. Um you will see I mean the years when the years when a man a man was, you know, on on hay bales and uh and and we you lit a man in a fire.

Yeah, I remember that.

And he walked in between his legs and the whole thing went Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's um Yeah. That's Yeah, that I mean, I'm smiling cuz it just it just takes us back to to that first that first trip.

All right. Well, thank you very much. This has been an awesome interview.

No, thank you. It's been Thanks for the opportunity to reminisce and thanks for taking me back and uh delving into into stuff that that I haven't quite shared with the world as such.

Well, thank you again.

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