EP 18 Dan Miller

Meet Dan Miller, an original pioneer of Burning Man who has attended every gathering since the inaugural 1986 bonfire on Baker Beach. Miller provides a firsthand historical account of the event’s evolution from a small, radical self-expression ritual among friends to a massive, organized city in the Black Rock Desert. He details his technical role in building and rigging the iconic wooden effigy, the transition from anarchic "zone trips" to the modern structured infrastructure, and his close relationship with founder Larry Harvey (they were roommates). Central to the discussion is Miller’s current "Man’s Brain" art project, a participatory installation designed to restore the interactive, communal spirit that he believes defines the soul of the culture.

Episode photo is by David Silverman

The Burning Man Journal article about the Man’s Brain:

https://journal.burningman.org/2022/08/black-rock-city/building-brc/participate/

Transcript

They make the trick out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Oh, yay. That Andy, today our guest is the one and only Dan Miller. Welcome, Dan.

Playa named Burning Dan.

Glad to be here.

So, I have all sorts of listeners. Uh, some people have never been to Burning Man. Some people have been going for many years. Um, honestly, like until Inani was told me about you, it's like I hadn't really heard very much about you, but um, uh, I I guess the elevator pitch how I would put it is uh you're probably the longest attending like a burner in Burning Man history like

u put it this way the simple way to put it is I've been to every burn

yeah

since ' 86

since 86.

Yeah I was roommates with Larry Harvey uh from 1980 end of it 1981 through 2000. So um the Burning Man headquarters for original years where was our our kitchen dining room. So

So who is the neater roommate?

The which what?

Who is the neater roommate?

Neater.

Well, it was odd couple. I'm not super tidy, but yeah, Larry picked the cake on that.

Yeah, it was it was a bit odd coupley in a sense.

So So the first uh uh uh what I guess burn, whatever you'd call it like that in Baker Beach in 1987, like when Larry

86. Yeah.

Or 86.86. Yeah.

And we were talking earlier um this is a summer solstice thing that your friend uh Mary what was her name? Mary Mary Growberger who had been organizing a a bonfire on Baker Beach in San Francisco. Um had started it years before had done it as an annual thing. Um in in 1986 she said she wasn't going to host it which all that meant was making a few phone calls. full of friends

and Larry decided to do it.

And uh instead of making a bonfire out of uh just making stacking wood as a typical teepee shape to start a bonfire, he um decided to make a man with that wood, a sculpture. And it was he called Jerry James and they made it that afternoon and we it was burned that evening. Um it was just like a dozen people or so.

So how long did they take to build this first wood? Is this the afternoon? I don't know. You know, a few hours.

Just like spare wood bits.

Yeah. Yeah. They Yeah. Jerry, the way he described it was where they where they did it. He didn't have any tools, so they were breaking sticks instead of sawing and it was pretty crude. Um there's pictures of it around. Um Yeah. And uh

that started the whole thing just taking Well, it was already a summer solstice when then when we it kept growing and we moved to the desert because it outgrew the beach as

each year uh the name got bigger to the point where we got shut down and um I ended up taking over the building of the man that last year in 1990 when we were on the beach. Um the uh the way the man didn't get burned got all back to the lot where it was built in um South Market San Francisco in this lot and it got uh destroyed just before we were going out to the desert. We thought Burning Man was over and I stepped in and said, "Hey, I can rebuild it." They had made drawings a plan which pretty much the same design as it is now. A few alterations, it's been improved here now, same size. And uh

and I was in charge of building an uh all through the 90s, 19 2000.

But let me uh just kind of take you back. Um so, you know, that first year uh was 1986, Baker Beach, right? So, they're building this like wooden man. I mean, does either Jerry James or Larry Harvey have any like carpentry skills?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. J Jerry was a licensed contractor and that's his profession and Larry had his landscaping business. I mean, um, was meager business, you know, get involved.

And what was his inspiration for doing all that? I mean, I' i've heard of like the tales and the stories, but I mean, like, what would you say?

Story. I was there. It's firsthand. I was there. So, this is a funny story. I haven't really told it anywhere. I mean, it's not out there, but um, it's just a small tidbit of lore. Um, my girlfriend at the time, uh, her roommate uh lived down the street from who lived at Alamo Square and um down at the other end of Pay Street. Her roommate was uh someone that Larry I introduced, you know, through my girlfriend and he hooked up with that's the girl Paula who they had a wonderful time in ' 85. He was there with his young son. I guess Tristan was about let's see how old he been about four or five. And um and he had a really really wonderful experience in ' 85 and then 8 and then they broke up. He was going through a heartbreak

and 86 came around and when Larry decided to do it, it it brought that back because of the memory of it. So he switched it up. He didn't just do the same thing, did something different, something rad, something passionate to, you know, express self radically, radical self-expression, one of his tenants,

one of the principles um and decided, hey, I'll make a man. And uh that's he called Jerry and they did that. after him burning wasn't called Burning Man then that name came along a few years later but it was already an annual event.

So this was Mary's like annual solstice thing that he just kind of

she she was a circle of friends and she was the one who who as I recall it was you know it wasn't it wasn't a particular event it was just hey let's go down to the beach and have a bonfire at summer solstice.

Yeah it was a group of friends yeah Mary was a friend of his girl of Larry's prior girlfriend um uh Janet Lur the ceramics artists

and um so it was a circle of people from art community with ceramics kind of background a lot

actually that's kind of interesting pre-dating Burning Man in Black Rock City story but

yeah

nobody knows I've talked to Larry about it but not nobody else I'll bring it up here

sure put it on the record um yeah when after I had met Larry in 1981 uh when we became roommates we realized we had both attended this event in 1978 uh that was on in Pascadero Beaches, this ceramics festival that was put on by a bunch of ceramic studios around the Bay Area and further out where he met up and had this camp out very black rock city like on Pascro Beach down south of San Francisco a few few day camping trip and all these art artist enclaves um would bring the ceramics work and make kils and they did this it was a raccoon festival. They dig holes in the sand, put leaves in it, grass, whatever and have this Japanese really beautiful pottery glaze technique natural thing you do it's great to do at the beach and they'd have these so it was very much like black rock city and we both reflected that we both been at that and how much black rock city was was you know a lot like that so it was one of the Bay Area you know the how Burning Man came out of the Bay Area that's just one one of those cultures

wow that's a kind of interesting that like yeah that the true if you keep going back farther and farther the roots of Bernie man it's more uh

yeah there's lots go very very wide. Very wide. There's a full cacophony. There's a history of, you know, the Bohemian culture in the Bay of San Francisco that dates back decades.

Wow. That was came out I read.

Yeah. So those first few years, so Baker Beach was what, like 86 through what, like 90? So 86, 87, 88?

Yes. Yeah. Four years. Yeah.

867 89

four years that last year we didn't burn the man.

He went and got massacred in this park. Mass massacred. He uh

well I thought that the guy who owned the parking lot like was like get this out of here. I want to like rent this out for park and so he cut it up or something.

There were two partners. We had permission from one of them. The other one didn't know. And the man wasn't supposed to go back there. We just didn't know where else to take it. So we took it back there.

The other partner they had rented this lot out. It was right across from Slim's nightclub and they made a parking lot. Um rented it for that. And somebody who was saying, "Hey, there's this debris here." And he just said, "Get rid of it." I heard it got chainsawed and Jerry Vader said, "No, that wasn't what happened." But I have no idea. But what happened was when Jerry and Larry would built that man in 1990, the one Baker Beach, it was a new design. We had an engineering involved with um it was there's a whole another long story. I can easily sidetrack from any point. Yeah. But the point the story I was saying though is that it got it got destroyed the legs and the torso, some major elements, the arms and the head and man component parts a head two arms a torso and two legs they get assembled on the beach

same way it's still done today on the desert and ever since um that same basic design of the stick man and

it took them months to and this happened like two weeks maybe three or four weeks I can't remember exactly before we were scheduled to go to the desert we thought it wasn't going to happen because that was it burning that was over and when I looked at the drawings and I had my background I worked at a company called Sound on Stage. Sound kept touring Soundcoping. Okay.

And I had a wood shop. We made speaker cabinets and book cases. And um when I looked at the drawings that Larry had made, I guess Jerry said he made some too, but at the time I still have the plans that Larry had drawn up with all the dimensions. When I looked at it, it was like this is cake, you know, because way simpler than building, you know, touring speaker cabinets.

And so we we built the we built it pretty quick. Um that's when I got and Jerry stepped away from it because he was kind of like there's no way we can do that.

Yeah.

So those first few years on uh Baker Beach um like that the first year the story I heard was uh like when when you guys lit it on fire and like someone caned up and like touched the hand of the man. It was like the sort of first sort of like just spontaneous art like Yeah.

There's recordings of Larry telling that story. Yeah. Was He was just relating the magic that happened, you know. Um yeah,

and if you go down to San the beach in San Francisco, anywhere, there's bonfires all the time going Baker Beach or Ocean Beach and um it's just a beautiful thing, you know, it's elements, the the cool ocean mist is chilling, is bone chilling, and but then you have a fire and you have any huddles around it.

Um and of course with doing a man as opposed to just a bonfire, it added a whole another that was pretty clear that

attracted some attention from other people.

I think what it what it was realized was we discovered something in the human DNA, the genome that

Yeah, talk about

has been lost. Well, it's been lost. You know, it's like we do, you know, modern times there's all this stuff through human history and but it's still in our DNA. And so when you do this sort of thing, it just becomes obvious like duh, you know, of course you do something like that and and that's why it continued. Um it was special powerful even even you know even the word the term burning man uh

at the time when it got named that it was kind of radical because those two words together are kind of intense you know it's kind of I think it's kind of worn off in that same way that when it first you know was termed that very

very uh what's the word for it powerful art statement

yeah but this thing you're talking about like the the DNA some sort of primal primordial thing I mean like what how would she characterize that

I tell you everything about Burning Man is rediscovering that element that's lost. You know, when we go out to the desert, it's, you know, it's kind of it's about the being against the elements, you know, we go to this very inhospitable place and we thrive there as opposed to perishing, you know. Yeah. And that's that's the challenge, you know, it's a risk and and you go out there and you bond with people because there's extreme conditions, you know. I mean, when there's rainstorms and white outs, it's a lot more powerful experience than when it's just mild and perfect, you know? Yeah,

you know, it's mild and perfect. Everybody loves it. But when there's a storm and you really have to hunker down and your s***'s blown away, your whole art piece is collapsed and you have to rebuild it. You know, it's a real bonding uh experiences that happen that make for a memorable

Yeah.

experience.

Yeah. So then, so those early years in the Baker Beach um a year after year, like how was your involvement like were you involved with

Baker Beach? Yeah. Well, Baker Beach, I you know, at first I would go and show up to help Larry and Jerry years. Each successive year from 86 the next few years as it grew it was improvised the structure I'd show up to like help and these guys are like arguing over every stick and I realized you know there's nothing I could do to help here. It's like this is help hope helpless and let these guys deal with the mess and they'd eventually build it.

So I didn't wasn't so involved other than attending in those years but then in 1990 I stepped up to um you know to rebuild the manual and then after that every year At what point did the cacophony society and like Michael Michael and all those

kind that was just this most beautiful marriage, you know, I mean the the the connection of cacophony and because Bernie man was already kind of established and cacophony was is very small actually

relatively because Bernie man grew really big and fast and the uh cacophony was was a small group relatively um and uh but you know I mean that's a complicated story to recount all the details and steps along the way and unfortunately you know there was falling out along the way.

Yeah. No, like at what point like at what point at Baker Beach did uh you guys attract their attention? What type or when did

Yeah. You know, it was pretty early on um you know there's a cacophony newsletter and um they listed that this event sounds like cacophony that the newsletter that come out every month every month um with events that people that were members could submit an an idea of an event. And this was listed I think Michael stumbled on um or Jerry James had contact. I'm not sure if it was Mike or John Law and those guys came.

I'm not sure what their first year was or if it was 88 or 89.

Oh, okay.

They weren't there the first year.

Okay. So then

in like then so then in 1990

I'm 1990

how many people were there like 800 or something?

Yeah, there 800,000. I mean it was a lot. It was it was huge on the Baker on Baker Beach. There was tons of people

and it was a warm balmy night which is very rare because it's usually chilly and gusty uh at Baker Beach, you know, right before the Golden Gate Bridge, fog and and high seas and all windy. Um but that day happened to be really warm, which is very rare. And there were people on the beach while we were carrying the man down and that's when the the police got alerted. In fact, some surfaced recently somebody had taken some film footage and just recently in the past few years had it transferred to to digital. So it resurfaced. But that that whole encounter in 1990 and we were shut down and negotiated with police. And I actually I was there. I was the one talking to them and u about saying, "Hey, we're we're not vandals, you know, we're this community. We respect the speech. We're not here to trash the place. We're going to clean up everything." You know,

and they and I talked him into getting a yes of saying, "You can set the man up, but we won't burn it." And we agreed to that, and we didn't burn it. We carried him back out and he got destroyed. And then we took it, ended up rebuilding and taking it to the desert in 1990. So there were There were kind of two burns in 1990. There was the beach. We had a bonfire to the side and then we took it on.

This is summer solstice.

Memorial Day or not Memorial Day, but Labor Day.

Yeah. So, summer solstice is what the June

21st. June 21st.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, the the story that I heard was that uh nobody wanted to talk to the police. Like I can't remember who it was. Like somebody stepped up and was just like, "Oh,

it was me. I did. I talked to it was the one. It's on video. I I had a memory of it." And then there this video resurfaces and There it is. It's all captured. Uh, it's on you. I saw it somewhere. Maybe it's not on YouTube. It's You have to have a password to see it. And it was kind of

So, were they like threatening or

No, no, no. They were just saying this is this you don't have a permit for this. You can't do it. And we were already there and we begged forgiveness and they they allowed us. They said we can set it up. And the agreement was you can see because we had they were shut stopped us before the man was set up. We just took the car parks down huge sand.

So, what's the permit for it? It's like if you have a certain number of people.

Oh, there's no permit. There's no permit. You can't have a bonfire that big. It's like 3 foot cube max. And we're like the man's 30 something feet or whatever.

Building them taller. And every year before that, the police would show up and they'd say,

"This is pretty cool. Do

this." And they'd leave and we it'd burn out and we'd clean up. And then that year in 1990, it was warm out. There were people around in some province. I mean, they got on to us every year that they were showing up after. This year, they showed up in the process.

Yeah. Well, like you said, it's like they've been as these successive years go by and it gets bigger and bigger and more and more people show up and they're just like, "Okay, this is pretty cool." But next year,

the same thing happened the same thing happened that year in 1990, we we show up on in Black Rock Desert, no permit, and a BLM ranger comes by who ends up becoming a good friend of our our group. And um but he said, "Yeah, you really get out of permit and then in 1991 the next year we actually applied and actually the first year bringing that fire on the fly.

So 1990 like okay the police break uh busted up and then uh is that Michael Michael John Law Cacophony Society said they invite you guys like oh we're doing this was it zone trip number four

oh yeah yeah they were already planning zone trip number four bad day at black and and yeah it was a perfect marriage it was magical everything you know I mean they were doing they were doing this event out there and they didn't really have any any, you know, it was just they were just going to go out there and trip out because it's a trippy place.

Now, the thing that I think a lot of uh especially newer burners and people who don't know much about Burning Man probably don't realize that there were actually other events happening out there, right? I mean, there was like a Desert Sight Works, right? Uh

Desert Sight Works came a few years later. Ben, he did a really cool thing, a sightspecific art installation where he invited artists and they did a small group thing and that went on concurrently for a longer period for a month or something and over overlapped with Birding Man a little bit. Um and yeah, so there was a lot of crosspollinization

and then there was I heard like other people that

Yeah. like using cars to play like croquet like a

Yeah. There was a fell who did the croquet game and there was a a wind sailing and you know it has the land speed record out there. There's a million car commercials that are filmed out there.

Yeah.

So you know it's it was it's kind of a um

it was at that time you know only certain some people knew about the place.

Have you been out or even heard of the Black Rockck Desert before 1990?

Yeah, I'd heard about the the events through, you know, when the planning was starting to talking about doing burn um about the wind sailing event and um

so you go out in 1990, what a box truck that's just the man sticking out the back or something.

No, no, no, no. Yeah, that first year out there, we did have we had a ride a 24 foot rider truck. a rental truck and um trying to remember John Law drove it out that year. I drove the the man we used to build the man in the city and um in fact my wood shop we built the cut all the parts and we build assemble it different places. Um

but um uh yeah we had different transport in different years but a lot of times it seemed like we did the rider of its truck 24ft box trucked

yeah

rental not not not new hall and um yeah packet, you know,

and that'd be the one and that and the crazy thing for me was for many years the only truck that was on the Black Rock Desert for burning on for wine truck

and when I years later to watching semi after semi you know pulling in there containers and s***

that was a big mind for me.

So that first year in 1990

was what like 80 something people.

Oh yeah the first year roughly 80 and I know it was at least 80 I here between 80 and 100 because then we didn't have heavy machinery, we didn't have forklifts, we didn't have cranes, and we raised the man using human power. And that was my job. That was what I did. I did the rigging and and developed this system of using booms that the rope would drop over the boom and that would tip down as the man came up and fall away. Um, and so to raise the man or lower him, which we do, to raise them and then lower it again, put fireworks on it. that are done um was all done with the rope and people which it took a minimum of you know 80 people minimum.

Yeah.

No, I heard that there was like the the way that you figured out that you had to use the leverage for that was like a mis near bad like mis almost mishap like on the on Baker Beach.

We we had issues of ropes breaking because we were didn't have budget cheap manila ropes. Oh yeah. Well yeah there's a story there. Okay. In 1998, I don't know, it's a few times we originally we'd have people raise the man as high as he could reach so they'd be under it and then the rope would take over.

Yeah.

That's when we developed the concept. There was fellow I'm forgetting his name. Um, we came up with this idea and when he said it, I championed it. I heard that. I said that's the way to do it with the broom. So the rope goes up high to get a lift position so nobody is around the man when it's being raised.

Now he's raised by a crate. You know, it's a whole different Oh yeah. Yeah.

Although in 2017 Larry did the had the man on the ground again and we went back. It was radical ritual was the theme that we I was called in to consult because no one had raised the man with a rope. They were all used to doing the crane but I had a ton of experience all through the 90s. So I came in to consult and I that's when I got back involved with the on the man pool and

doing the project I'm doing now which we could jump into any talk about old stuff.

We'll get around to that. We'll get

So yeah. So 19 90 you guys uh 80 of you guys go out there danger ranger or Michael Michael I should say at the time probably he's not danger ranger yet uh you scratched his line in the in the playa and so yeah crossing into the zone

yeah that was the cacophony trip so there were a bunch of people that caravanned out there I wasn't with that group I I wasn't there for that at the time when when Burning Man happened on out on the desert the cacophony was on trip for it was let's say 80 people half of that because I I actually saw that picture of Michael Michael's drawing along kind of there's about 40 people.

So I I would I would estimate it's hard to say but Burning Man had a mailing list already and about half the people were through Kakoff and half through Burning Man. And of course after Burning Man happened for that during that zone trip the next year it wasn't a zone trip. It was just Burning Man. Bernie man found a new home through that obviously because Baker Beach got shut down at you know it was the new home where it became um you know a camping trip as opposed to just one So the first year in 1990 was basically just like 80 people kind of

Yeah.

camping around.

Yeah. So half the people there were, you know, that came through with the caravan that came from San Francisco with the cacophony for the zone trip that did that line in the sand on the play. You know, everything will be different. You know, it was the zone trip concept. And I I What was your question though? Sorry.

Oh, no. I was just thinking like I mean in 1990 you like you guys with the man and Larry into the cacophony. a total of 80 of you guys. So there would just be this this wooden man and just a bunch of people just scattered camping nearby.

My recollection because my long-term memory is way more intact than more short-term memories of Burns. But yeah, in 1990 I still can remember a lot. There wasn't much going on. There was no art. There were no theme camps that year. Um the one there few elements and one of the cool things about watching it over the years and the the growth of it is how small things are still there. They've grown bigger. Um the center camp cafe was that first year, you know, we set up a center camp sage straight shade structure which blew over

the next year up. Yeah, it was parachute and of course parachutes catch the wind. You know, wind comes they take a lot. They they they you got to tie them down real good. Anyways, Peace Eagle

who started the the cafe, she was there that first year and had her the her RV and was serving coffee out front and that, you know, little gestures like that grew as time went. Um I mean the man is the same story. The temple is the same story. It started by David Best in 2000.

I mean, there's so many elements of Black Rock City that started off as these small things that grew. Radio Station, you know, just every element

started small and I even my I I have a I have lots of early art pieces that that grew. Um the uh the one that I started, you know, we needed communication out there. You know, people were scattered and how do you so I built a bulletin board standard thing and it's classic. So I did that for many years, probably 10 years of building a larger and larger newer and and now there's the client info, but the thing's so big now and the internet, it's kind of dissipated, but it kept it was one of those cool projects that

and then um I'm sure you know the story of Michael Lions.

Uh yeah, tell me that. I know Michael Lions, but

Michael Well, he did the the first theme camp, right? Like the Christmas camp.

No, I didn't think that was his. Was that that might

That's what somebody told me.

I'm not sure about Michael Lions. My memory of that was there was Lisa. Oh gosh, I'm forgetting.

What year was this?

Wow. 94 maybe 93. They did Christmas camp. Peter Dodie was played Santa. And it was it was Lisa and I'm forgetting her last name right now. Was Lisa and Amanda I think they were two friends that did Christmas camp and and Peter Dodie was played the character Santa and really really made it into what it was.

What was that woman's name again? Peter Dodie was a Santa Michael. And then

I could look it up. I'm just basing

but the other the other woman just

Alisa um picture your face. I'm just spacing on the last name there.

Ah never mind.

Yeah.

But you because I heard that that was like the original theme camp.

Yeah. I would say that was probably get gotten credit for that. There's no

So how did that in your experience like how did that come about? Well,

you know it was just an idea of doing something out there. You know what would it How would I explain that? Basically, you take a bunch of people and there's to a blank place and they will fill it up. You know, people come up with ideas. That's just what happens out there. It's a blank canvas. You get some wacky idea and you say that's what you get your passion about. You do it. And that was a spark of an idea. You'd have to ask. I'm pretty sure it was Lisa and her friend um Amanda that came up the idea and then they they enlisted Peter Dodie and he took it on from there. But I don't remember if Mike Lion was uh how he was connected to that. I have to ask him.

Oh well, I'm just like making a note and just like oh that's another story that they research for later.

Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of classic because credit is the first theme camp because it definitely grew from there. Yeah. And then Stuart Mangum I don't know what year he had his teaching camp you know I can't remember all the first ones but there was a lot of artists that came out early. The very first art piece besides the man that I know of was the bread oven that the the project that was the ceramics uh ladies uh Stu um Janet Lure and Lynn Marsh, friend of mine from W Palo Alto, who they did this uh retained heat brick bread oven and they make loaves of bread in this oven. Um you know, it was kind of equal to the man. It's like they bake these loaves and then feed it to people and burn. It was really sweet. An early thing it happened in 1990 and 91. I don't know if it continued past that, but then there was water woman was the other kind of side to a feminine side of the aspect of the

but just in terms of like that the the first theme camp I mean like uh cuz what it seems to me like what you're saying like in 1990 some some parts coffee some parts uh this bigger beach group you know with all you guys the burning man and it's just a bunch of like friends or soon to be friends you know just like going out and camping and then you know this this Christmas camp idea. It was just like, oh, it's kind of like, well, we our our little group like that we have a theme, you know, it's like and this is going to be like our kind of like uh artistic kind of focus or whatever.

I I'm not the one to speak to the evolution of how grew

because I was already involved, you know, this, you know, deep in doing the man, the rigging, getting by getting all the parts, you know, organizing the building and the rigging and and then later by 96 starting to do a pedestal for the base, the first base,

which you know, we built a wooden frame square base and then set strawber

and did that for as a groove from 8 feet high to 12 feet high and by 2000,

but I was so involved in that those things. Um, I never

did a theme camp so I don't know, you know, I don't, you know, I was so involved in the man himself.

Yeah. Another question

I mean Yeah.

Yeah. Well, another question I have is just like those early years like 90 to 96 or so. I mean, how long was Burning Man? Was it Did you guys just go out for like a long weekend kind of thing?

It grew. It grew the first weekend. Was it like, what is it? It's this Labor Day. So, we went up like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. Three days, three nights or so. You know, it grew extended each year another day longer until it's been for a long time up.

Yeah. Well, now it's like they're out there for months, you know.

Yeah. Well, the event itself is eight days. And of course, the way I look at it and this period is there's three phases. There's the before, there's the during, and then on the after. Three distinct aspects that are really totally quite different and all have their amazing qualities to it.

You talk about like each year that happens like before, during and after.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's the building the city, which you know, DPW project, and then there's the event uh which everybody knows about, and then there's the the um cleaning up. What do they call it now? Best Mhm.

restoration.

Yeah. It's like it's kind of the antilimactic aspect of doing the project. The doing the building is is wild because you you know that you're building this infrastructure of the city and you know that there's this like b you're at this vortex the center that all this energy is coming from all over the world to bring stuff to you. It's pretty incredible anticipation. A lot of people at EPW like you know ah get away from our city overwhelmed. But I always was just loved how, you know, you're building this thing and building the man and the base for the man. You're right center where all this focus is because that's the center of the scene.

Yeah. And when did the neon first go on the man?

That was John Law uh contribution that started in ' 91 I think it was because 1990 we just had a couple of lights in the man's eyes.

Wow.

And um run by a 12volt battery with a switch. And um so 91 was the first First year we had the man on barge. So you hear a bit about that. We did this event at Fort Mason Center in San Francisco. That was a great story.

Great story. I'll throw this in. So in 1990 when we got permission to set up the man and not burn it and we complied. We didn't we set it up. We didn't learn it. It was challenging because a lot of people we didn't have a bullhorn even to tell people that we weren't going to be burning it. Lots of people didn't were confused.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

So yeah. No, it was challenging to not burn it. put it that way. We didn't. But because we didn't, we all of a sudden the next year had this in that we um had a permit basically working with all these departments at you know parts of police and you know national recreation whatever they call it in you know it's a national park.

Um and and then so the next year we had more clout and we had got this month-long installation of the man on a barge between two peers at Fort Mason on the bay. on the inside of the Golden Gate. Um, and because we had that relationship of not burning, you know, uh, allowed to set them in at the Mount Burn. That was just a really sweet thing. And, um, and it's grown from there, you know, obviously it grew. Look where we are now. But those are the roots and some of the beginning moment.

Well, I think that challenges.

Yeah. You guys set a precedent like with the authorities, you know, like that you will respond to them, you will listen to them, you you will work. We had to work relationship.

Yeah. So that leads me to like the next question is because when you guys go there in 199 say before that we were entirely punk gorilla, you know, and then that was that was a first tow hole in

It's funny. Most people think Bernie was hippie but it's more punk than you know.

Oh yeah, definitely.

Yeah. So

it's crossover everything is everything.

Oh yeah.

It's always been everything.

Yeah. So in 1990 you're out there the Black Rockck and the BR Rock um or the Bure of Land Management like rangers come around and say, "Hey, you need to have a permit for this." Like Who who's the or what is your organizing entity? I mean, or is like who who who's the one who puts their name on that?

Yeah, it was Larry. You know, I mean, the funny thing is when when the police would show up, I think there's an 89 the police show up, you know, because they'd show up each year because someone would see this bonfire and call the police and police would show up and there's a video from ' 89. Um I actually had a video camera I gave to a friend to film stuff and it was caught on there where um the the cops are coming around saying, "Who's in charge of friend of mine right now was playing like this symbol. He had a symbol and they they came to him and said thinking he's in charge because he's a musician. He's playing music there and and it's funny because that's on the recording him saying I don't know who's in charge, you know? Larry and Jerry are like hiding somewhere, you know. I It's just kind of

But I mean, did they actually form like a company or something like how do you like because when you get a permit like somebody has to

there has to be some sort of organizing entity.

See, I didn't do that side of it. I was strictly nuts and bolts doing mechanics

and I left all that. I didn't participate in that, but yeah, that's what Michael and John Law and Larry, you know, they they formed a LLC or something. No, no, it was at first. They did some kind of business partnership that then became an LLC later, but there were steps of being more business-like and you know, Mike and Michael, you could ask him about all that stuff.

Yeah. Ah, I might have interview him in a couple months. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He he could talk about all the or

so that original like They had offices at some point and um you know I was really busy. You see my involvement I didn't get involved with the the business side of Burning Man because I had a full-time job as a sound engineer. I was managing sound on stage sound company recording sound company full time you know so this was just the side gig you know.

Yeah.

But I was full in you know it came to doing it and building the man getting it out there raising it. So it's nuts and bolts

kind of all sailed along. somewhat smoothly I guess until 1996 right and so that was probably the one of the big kind of change years I mean there's a couple of like milepost but like yeah I know like

yeah 96 was a huge change because it we got it outgrew the system the style of form of the anarctic style that it had been where you know it was a car event and you know the way it evolved was ditch the cars park them drive in slow park them you know up Before then, from 1990 through96, you could tear off, you know, we'd do s***. It was a car. You could play with your car. You'd go out. I I at one time, you know, reclined my seat with a foot on the accelerator and took a nap in your car. You know, there was that vast. It has the lands world speed record out there breaking the sound barrier. Um, and and rocket with wheels on it. So, I mean, it's um

you could zip off. There's hot springs. ful hot springs surrounding closed off because they'd be over.

But back then that was part of the event. You know, you take a trip to the hot springs when they did the famous driveby shooting range did not happen at Burning Man. It happened over by Trago Peaks by the hot springs. There's a side road on the on the east side of the ply and there's a mountain and that's what you know. So,

so the drive by shooting rage like what years would would that encompass? Like was that early or

I never I never actually participated. I was into the gun thing. Guns aren't my thing. did shoot guns out there a few times and it was fun. The most fun thing I ever did with a gun out there that they did um Robert Burke did this great thing. It was um he made this giant buffalo car. It was a convertible. I don't remember what it was. He built with like rebar this huge buffalo sculpture just a frame. Beautiful. And um but one time he took it and they hung propane tanks, you know, like little five gallallon propane tanks and they put a flare ribbed into this and they're just dangling. And you when you shoot a propane tank. They don't explode the because it's there's no oxygen in this gas, but the gas shoots out and the things are hanging and they spin around. That was

I'm sure that's on video somewhere. It was one of those classic things to do. Um I forgot the question. What years? I don't know. Early 90s. The early 90s started 92 91 or something.

But going back to like your 96 after 96

Yeah. But but your involvement like like after 96 like uh cuz I remember the 96 that they still was on the the hay bales, right? Like by

that was the first year. That was the first year I did the man on a pedestal with the straw bell pyramid.

Uhhuh.

Aztec style step pyramid. Yeah. 96 was the first year. It was five straw bells high. The platform was 8 feet and then each year and after that I would add another straw barrel to that up to 12 feet. It was it was sweet times. It was it was really a sweet uh base for the men. There was a hidden chamber underneath it. wasn't publicized. So it just was the people that happened to realize you could crawl through a hole to get into it was a speedole.

That that was my theme camp was the man the man.

So when did uh you stop making the hay bells and make actual

the first year uh Rod Garrett um in let's see yeah I worked for the up through 2000 I had a kid and handed handed off the building to man and and Rad Garrett who had signed the city layout that it is now and started in 97. The year 96 was the last year the chaos of just random streets.

Yeah,

very few streets. There were streets. There was two the inner circle and outer circle then went four directions and V where the man was and now camping that's evolved into Rod Garrett designed city in 97 that was on Walapai private property.

Yeah, remember that

and he um designed it up through I don't know from years I think but He did the first base that was much larger. They were used a crane and they ditched the whole rope and picked the base and that started in 2001. It was just like a big it looked like a letter A. Your name was on top of it. And the next year it was like a lighthouse and the theme was a floating world.

Um and I still attended and participated but just as a participant not I

So you said what? So what year 2001? No. When did you stop? Uh

I last year I did last year I did

you stop working. working was 2000. I was a cleanup manager. A DA was uh on my crew who's the famous guy s he he was on my on the special. So we developed the whole thing of no burning on the pla

talked about ceramics and fire the plywood stone wear. So we realized you had to put you know something to protect the playa or elevate the fires and that started in 2000. We turned that Bob Stall was engineering I don't know if you've ever seen it. We did we did a lot of great things on

Is that the decomposed granite what they use?

Yeah, they use because it matches the same color and something get cheap and abundance and

so they put it over where under wherever the fire is going to be and then come along afterwards and scrape it up with the front burner into a truck and there's mountains of that stuff.

Yeah. On the ranch on the side of the fire. So

yeah.

So in terms of like uh like working or volunteering or building on the like you kind of had taken a hiatus from what 2000 uh when when did you ever go back and are you are you

I've been every year I've been every year and what I've done

in terms of like working

yeah myself I've just done private you know person I've done art projects every year I've been out there every year since I've not not missed a burn since ' 86 so

yeah no but since uh since 2000 like what what have you been like what what have been your art projects

yeah well my art project in 2001 was having a kid and bring he came out at 7 weeks old. My son really now 23. Yeah. He's into many burns.

Yeah. Um and uh

well as Okay. Side note.

Yeah.

Uh if if if it's is it's your son.

Yes.

Yeah. Uh I would love to interview him for my show one of these days because like the whole concept of my show is that the shadow of the man. You know, it's just like what what changes has these, you know, has Bernie man kind of like or what impact has Bernie man had? And so uh so like when I was talking to um to Coyote and I was running He was like, "How old were you when you first went and like how old are you now?" How many years? And then I was like, "You realize this like more than half of your life?"

Yes. And he was just like, "Wow." Yeah.

Yeah. I realize that.

Yeah. But I I I would love to interview somebody who's literally spent their entire life

at Burning Man. And and and not only that, they still go.

He would be one. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. He hasn't been the past couple years that he's been, but yeah, he's went been to probably I don't know.

Yeah. We

at least 16 of them or so. Yeah.

Yeah. Um,

so yeah, some of your art projects and things you worked on since 200.

I would like to back up actually what something you just said. Um, what h you know, how did you first go and how did it change your life? And you know, it's kind of fascinating because I knew that was this kind of theme of your show.

We'll get back to that.

Okay. Okay. Sure.

But no, you can like preview like a little uh

Well, let me just say I'll just go on. I don't know what else we're talking about. Anyway, um at the um you know just the the the the gosh I wish I had the vocabulary right in the tip of my head here. The um

the the the social fabric right right words of the scene of the Bay Area San Francisco in that era you know I mean I think of my childhood growing up PaloAlto one thing that really influenced my uh outlook and direction at the time I mean I can encapsulate it there's a movie that was you know as a teenager you're seeing maybe you've played saw heroine mod.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Very inspirational as a teenager as you know

kind of very very creative.

Yeah.

You know there's that character mod who you know it's just that

there's a art scene that's happening in the background in the Bay Area.

My my that's what I think and what you know I was mentioning that um that art uh that ceramic rac nature it was already happening and so when cacophony mar you know hooked up with the freedom of what you were creating at the burning man thing and you go to the desert it was just the natural next step and of course it's blown up you know it became viral I guess you could say

yeah

where burning man is like pretty well known everywhere nowadays as opposed to back when we were starting it nobody knew anything about it and it's definitely small potatoes and underground so you know watching it grow where we get on the front page of you know, the New York Times or something was a really huge like, oh my god, right? Or even Larry getting on with um uh Charlie Rose because, you know, we'd sit in the living room and we watch Charlie Rose all the time and imagine that he got to this place where he's on Charlie Rose, you know, those little those steps along the way that were really wonderful. It was like

um kind of,

you know, just heady time and beyond that. Um so,

so anyway,

see how it's affecting me or changed my life. It just was my life, you know.

Yeah. It's burning hands all the time. I've been to everyone. To me, it's like now it's just I've been to one. It's always, you know, that's the way my outlook.

Yeah.

All right. Well, we'll we'll talk we could talk some more about that later, too. Um, but, uh, I just want to kind of finish up, you know, with your you kind of like your Burning Man experience. So, then, um, so after 2000, you're doing your own projects on the Playa. Uh, you have your your son. Are you involving your son, I mean, in these projects? I mean,

he was a toddler, you know. Um, he's been involved, I guess. Yeah. You know, I mean, The projects I did were more family small stuff. Um my in 2002 I um made a um I took a boat and converted into a hot tub which called the yacht tub and um and it could it was a nice family project. You know it was an art car. There was a hot tub. You could cruise it to hook it up to another art car and show up at a party or something and there's a hot tub at the you know steam camp and we've had fun with that. I took it out. times. And then on another project we made a bed swing. It was in 2006 the theme was um hope fear in the future. And there's this um Hoffy's um you know Ry Hoppy's Persian poets that these guys he has this poem called to build a swing and um so he built this swing that uh and my partner that came up with the idea said let's build a swing you know it fits with the theme this poem called to build a swing. hope here.

And I said, "Well, it's Burning Man. It's going to have to be a bed." So, this queen-sized brass canopy bed swing, which has been in use tons um all since at Burning Man and outside of Burning Man. So, that was another art project that was notable and we I've done other ones and the one I'm doing currently.

Yeah. Yeah. Talk about now.

Sure. Okay.

So, when when did this come about? What was the genesis of this?

Yes. So, that's a quite a tale. Um In two 2018, I got a call from Harley who, you know, was part of the LLC burning and she said told me that Larry had had a stroke and um so I ended up about 130 miles big city and so I came down and um anyways he was he didn't recover but there was about a month he was uh in a coma and during that time I while I was down visiting uh in the hospital I met a lady named Kimber who was in charge of building the man in the base for the man investing for 2018 I robot and um it was cool meeting and she uh said hey we're building the man she called me back said hey we're building a man this week if you want to come up and be on the crew which I hadn't done since um 2000 2018 and I come up we at the the your uh the ranch out black task And um and it we're building and a ritual that I had actually started back in the 90s of making a heart for the men for all the people that work on the volunteer crew to sign this heart. The man has had you always had a heart for the men.

And they said, "Hey, we need someone to make a heart." And I'm like going, "Cool." There's that ritual's carried on. This is 2018.

Yeah.

And um and I'm sitting there thinking if if I wanted to step up to build art and and I'm think the whole time building thinking about Larry

you know to have to rewire his brain

built to the comma and so

I don't want to think

and and we had a we this is another backtrack story that

sure

throw in here when we would build the man back in the 90s there were no scraps because we take all these cutout scraps and all the crew would would take different scraps and make sculptures and we'd have a builder's front burn we go on a bushing beach and have a bonfire with these small sculptures that everybody would just cobble together uh with the scraps. So, here I am at this build um in the desert and and there's all these scraps there and I'm going, "Oh, I guess they don't do that anymore." And so, I decided I'd make a brand out of instead of making a heart, I'm going to make a brand. So, I just spontaneously made this brand for the moon. Oh, here's a picture of it. It's just that see it.

Ah, let's see. Let's describe it to people. It's like wood pieces.

Yeah, there's this this egg. I found this stone that was a perfect egg. I put that in the middle of it there. It's kind of like under a mesh.

So, this is just a frame. It's very rudimentary. Here's that same brain that year

got covered with styrofoam. Great stuff spray. And I ended up putting on a bike trail. That's a long story. I've gotten sidetracked again. Anyways,

well, no, no, because that's what we're talking about. Like your one your project, the man's brain, right?

Yeah. There was an evolution. It's still going on and it's um

so 2018 were your ask.

Yeah. Yeah. There was they said, "Who wants to make a heart?" And I'm just like saying, "Oh, I don't feel my heart's not in a making a heart. I'm I'm

so I made it to scale. Fits in the man's head. It's designed to go in the man's head. It's like sets on top."

Um, and um the uh what's that picture? There's a picture from 2019. There's the I showed you.

Oh, yeah. You can totally see the rain.

Yeah. So, that's 2019. Anyway, uh Um the the thing about the first year 2018 that was 2019 the spray that got I used great stuff right foam so it was determined they didn't want to put it in the man's head so yeah

I come out to the event I come out to the event no it didn't it did get burned but anyways I didn't get put in the man's head

okay

I came out and looked up at the man saw it wasn't in his head I went and found it and they said oh we couldn't put it in there it didn't work out and it's styrofoam we don't want to burn it toxic, whatever. So I said, "Oh," and they said, "It's in the base under the So I go get a bike trailer and as this picture shows, it's on the bike trailer and and it's hollow and there's a slot at the top so people can put right a thought in it and put it in the slot."

Oh.

And and this became the ritual and the project is so they'll make a brain from the scraps. They go up build the man from the scraps from the man's ribs.

Uhhuh.

Predominantly um scraps um and then I bring it with me to finish building out the brain and um then bring it back. It gets to cruise the playa. There's a temple I make I have out there for it and a picture of that right here doing. Anyways, um yeah, it's kind a little bit convoluted to explain the project. Unfortunately, it's not that simple, but it's a simple idea. So, the brain gets burned with the man, but it gets to cruise the plyier like all our brains, you know, like

and people get to put thoughts into it.

Man has a brain. I've been doing it ever since 2018 and it's it's evolved. The brain is no longer foam. I metal mesh and papier-mâché and

Oh, yeah.

It's a paint job. Alex Gray painted it one uh back a couple years ago and you know, enlist other artists to participate, you know, created for it. Um

um

the idea of it is it makes the man participate

as the events grown larger. The man's on this pedestal on his face. He can't touch it. Here's this no spectators event and yet the main event of burning the man is a spectac spectacle thing. It's this the most amazing tailgate party around the man it's like a tail you know but what this project why what I've uh the mission of it is to make the man interactive you can actually touch this brain you can put a thought in it right on paper the ritual that goes along with it you're you're invited to share your thought that you put in with the people that happen to be around when when they're in honoring it which creates this amazing kind of psycho magic moments that have been really powerful when people have you know little moments like that. Um

yeah

and it's been a really fun project. It's been one of the best projects I've done in my whole history of burning. It's like it's the best burns I've had.

So the man's brain is basically it's like a like a little installation somewhere out on the on the playa and like people can come during the week and then put

there's there's a temple there's a temple it's I call it the philosophical center and I added a few elements to make it active. It's the full title of the the temple is the philosophical center potluck lemonade stand, noodle house and lemonade stand. So there's you can get food and drink there on occasion or if you bring it, you know, it's got shade and I I made this temple. It's a beautiful design. Uh it's a tribute to Larry. He designed the civic lamp posts that have the kerosene mantras all around the city. I mean

and uh so it looks it's designed just like that but made into a gaze. So there's an altra in the middle the brain can be set on and and when the brain's not there's actually a t ultra top is a beautiful paint job where the brain at the slot you can put there's pads of paper and punch you can write there it's like a mailbox it's it's stationary it's locked down to the plates you know

and so does that actually get put into the man's head before it burns.

Yes. So the concept is this the uh the man the brain is made with the man from his scraps and when we build the man which he's coming up not too long from now and maybe um the man will be built. I'll make the brain from the scraps. This is what I've done the past several years in plain this year. Um the brain the man gets wrapped up and stored in the shipping plane until the burn gets installed on the fly. The brain is you know just the frame I make goes in my car and we go on a road trip and it can go show up anywhere. I've taken it to you know different events and my ultimate thought was this frame could travel anywhere in the world but different crew. Anybody could take it to their locality and you know take it around to events and I mean I the first year I I did this when I brought it back to with me um in 2019 you know I took it to a opening of of uh Coyote's book release it was Jack Carowak Alley in North Beach in San Francisco and I brought the brain there right for people to write all over the frame was covered by pictures. Anyway um it was like the man was there.

Wow. crazy uncere you know if I mean it you know I have this great picture um of these three guys the three neurologists I call this picture these guys I come out for it was I come out to the the gazebo over the philosophical center temple we call it originally the temple of thought and they changed philosophical tribute to Larry that was his department

yeah

um and anyways these guys these three guys are there and they said yeah we we saw this brain we're all neurologist in it and the man is like 600 feet away where the temple was that there was this close you can be the man now I spend past years on the six o'clock avenue halfway up from center camp to the man and that's this but anyways I I I said you know because I'd talked to other neurologists and I said I pointed at the man I said there's the man here's the man's brain where's the man and all three of them simultaneously instantaneously point at the brain because they're neurologists you know like you know where are you you know if your brain is over here and your body's here where are you know it's kind of schizophrenic that it's separated

yeah

but um and they pointed out you know you can't separate a brain from a body but the the whole project is really wonderful because

you know especially in this era of AI int what is intelligence and what's the lack of intelligence you know brains are these mysterious things that is us

you know the depth think this project can be very simple, you know, he's just it's the man. You can touch his brain, you know, you can't touch the man. He's, you know, he's locked up for there on his on his citadel, you know.

So, since 2018, you've done this every year like it's like you used a scrap. Well, we Yes. Except

except for 20 or 21. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't do that. I did. I went to school.

And then another question I have is like does um caveat magister and Steuart Stewart Mang like part because I know like Yeah,

I tried to talk to those guys. You know what? It's sad

because they do the whole philosophical center thing, right?

Yeah, they do that. Guess what? Larry did the philosophical center and they were included. When Larry passed the the name philosophical center became a publishing Burning Man publishes books and caveat he's written books in Coyote, you know, they um so they use that name philosophical center but otherwise what Larry's version of philosophical left with me. It doesn't exist. What they replaced Larry with is the selection committee. Larry's job was what he called the philosophical center. That was his title. And he um was in charge of creating the theme and the the the design concept. It wasn't a contest, you know, he elicitated, you know, went to artists to come up with ideas,

but he was responsible for the design of the base, what they call a pavilion, the man base. And um And now it's what they call the selection committee. There's um you know a lot of the LLC um Steuart's on it but it's not the philosophical center that comes that does this work anymore. That was Larry's position and it went away with him. And the word the term philosophical center has been thrown up in the air. And the great

analogy that I love to you know um Inani started the philosophical Facebook group.

Yeah.

And what Larry did

one of his you know these big uh talks he did he took his hat and threw it out in the crowd and someone you know it's for you now to put on and someone puts it on and then they take it wear it and throw it and someone else caught it. Do you ever see this video? It's classic. No,

you know he's pointing out that you know he's passing on this torch you know something I don't know what year it was but it's it's a cool thing gesture he did.

Yeah.

And it was very successful just spontaneously people would put it on and then throw it again and it was just f****** you know it's classic Larry Stson hat and um

and basically you know they haven't I haven't You know, I started calling my temple the philosophical center because it's a tribute to Larry. It actually have a plaque on it saying this is a tribute to Larry, you know.

So, Inani started that uh the Facebook group, the Philosophical Center.

Yes, he started that.

Okay. I think his episode's actually going to come out right before this episode,

right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you involved?

I got What's that?

Are you involved with that group?

Well, you know, I know I'm the one who hooked up with Anani back in 19 I mean in 2000. He was on I was uh he was on my volunteer crew for the cleanup. And so, um, yeah. So, we've been in transition.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I got him back on the man building crew, um, for a couple years and he participated in that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so, do you foresee yourself doing this like uh the man's brain and like philosophical center thing like?

I I've been try when waiting for them to realize that it needs to be an official edition. I proposed that a few years ago saying that you know this brand But I've been I've been I've they said, "Look, we don't want to take it on, but we'll support you in doing it. You can't transfer it to somebody else."

I think that's pretty wise because

to me, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I've been having

because from what you're talking about is this beautiful. Yeah, it's wonderful. I mean, it fulfills like all the things you're talking about.

Why I think it should be adopted more so because it's kind of schizophrenic that I'm doing it separate. It's not

The reason why I think it should go there is because There's this uh paradox

that there's uh the the main tenant of Burning Man is part um no spectators and then there is Burning Man as a spectator. But this totally makes the man a participant. The brain gets to participate. It goes around the plya collecting thoughts from all the people. Everybody's involved included anywhere in the world. The brain it it can before the event before it gets burned it can go anywhere. So it's capacitor. I take, you know, take it around to events and stuff just randomly wherever it's on a bike trailer.

Um, and you can put a thought on it.

So, that's my B and my mission with it is it makes the man participatory. Makes

interactive.

No, I think that's beautiful. It's wonderful.

I mean, right now the base is interactive. They make the base interactive, but the man himself used to be, you see, this was my project through the 90s. You grab a rope and pull the man up. It's very connected. But as the event grew and and it less percentage of the population the first year out to everybody. We had to get everybody to raise the man or it'd be lying

and um

and now they do it by crane and it's one person you know crane um and some people holding some skywars but uh

that's that's the one thing I'm just kind of wondering about is like you know if if the the Bernie man project kind of took over this Bernie the the man's brain thing in Like do you have any like fears it would become like bureaucratized or the people would like let's make this bigger and crazier and or you know like how things always kind of blow up

I'll tell you what I I'll tell this other story that's a little bit controversial maybe I don't know I told it before and I got in a little bit of whatever I'll just tell it

and it was an example of starting something and handing it off and I'm glad that it's still alive I didn't I stopped doing it so to me

you know I mean many things like that where you you make you do something that's for everybody and you hand it off and it's and it it has a life of its own. So to me wherever this brain project were to go I have no idea. It's very quirky. It's it's it's spontaneous how it came out of you know Larry having a stroke you know it's just intense in its own way. Um it was just spontaneous.

Well do you see yourself uh continuing to do this or passing?

Well you know I've been doing it just because it's really fun. It's it's a big it's public service. I mean it's a Yeah,

I don't just got to go play. I have this brain I got to tote around. It's like babysitting. When I left it with Alex Gray to paint for three days was great. It's like what a great babysitter. This guy who does, you know, visionary uh you know um

Well, I'm sure Yani would fry and fill your shoes if you ever needed some help.

Yeah. You know, if if they took it on and somebody who else was on the build crew took it to back to their hometown and took it to events and fundraisers for Burning Man art pieces and such. I I took it to this wonderful party at the uh place called Full Tilt. Full Tilt this amazing art space down in um San Rafell where they have this art car what's it called? Skull car has a big top hat skull with a top hat wonderful art car and I took it to that fundraiser but I've taken it to you know like the books sign alley speech but anyways it's a fun thing. It's very coffin. total kacop.

It brings back old school doing and that's why I'm just having fun with it. But ultimately, I think it really belongs to the man, you know, to the community.

Yeah, that's good.

I'm just I'm just a steward, you know. It's not really my project and I'm just a steward of it. That's how I feel about it.

All right. Well, I think we're kind of concluding our first segment. Uh well, the first part first you answered the first question.

Um thank you very much.

Yeah. Great. Thank you. So now let's move on to our next question.

Oh. Oh, you're starting. Okay.

Well, I just kind of want to look gap because I might actually uh

like split this up into two parts.

Um, so yeah, tell me about your background like like where did you grow up? Like what's what's your your story?

Yeah. Well, I grew up Palo Alto um and u you know San Francisco just up the street. Um peninsula and um our playground was between the bay lands um the south end of the bay down Palo the the harbor there

what years you talking about like

oh well I'm 66 uh to the 60s and 70s

so Palo Alto back then what was that like

oh yeah Palo Alto was way is now yeah it was a family town it was affordable you know it was uh my parent my dad always said we moved there um because of the historic system that was before Proposition And um the uh it was a great place to grow up. Um Stanford University was our playground. I mean Santa mountains and Santa Cruz and on the coast, the Santa Fe coast bicycle out that way. Um the teens um uh Redwoods Santa Cruz Mountains. So that's that was where I grew up. Uh I mentioned that movie Herald Ma that was I keep coming back. that movie as kind of a pivotal teenage thing of that I I really uh you know for some reason I I connect that with the whole movement of cacophony and burning in for me because it was some there's some element of that movie it's kind of a spiritual thing you know of that

freedom of you can do do it what you you know

being creative and living like that I don't know um how else to say it but you talking about my formative years, childhood years, you know, teenage growing up and

Yeah.

So, well, what did you study? Because you you said that you were

And by the way, that film was partially filmed in Pal.

Oh, the Bay Area and San Francisco.

Let's never forget that was it a Jaguar that they made into a hearse.

Yeah.

I was like I remember I was like that is the coolest car.

Yeah.

But u

the kid a kid in my high school actually owned the Hurst.

Really?

Was the rehearse that he had before he made this Jaguar one. Yeah. So it was a local thing.

Wow. So what did you study in school and like in in

I I um I went to Foothill College and studied different things. In fact, Foothill had a lot of different programs that you know were connected with that. The the ceramics department from Foothill College did that raccoon festival and they had a VW bus, an art car. They made a VW bug into a K. So they tow off there and that's where they're firing s***, you know, some parallels. Um and KFJC, the radio station, were some of the people there that started, you know, the Black Rock City, um, you know, BMI and what all the radios that happened on Laia,

some friends there. And, um,

then I traveled went to checked across the country, traveled around Europe and came back and went to So I was 19 or so and started went to turn 20, I can't remember exactly now, and moved to San Francisco, went to the College for Recording Arts and then starting a record company when I fell in with um doing sound for Elvin Bishop and used some sound equipment from this company called Sound on Stage

which I ended up uh having a long decadesl long career working as a sound engineer and and eventually got to the general manager and studio company in the same time we were using wood shop at sound stage which had started their case cabinet building company called California cases we r and speak with guidance.

That's where we started in 1990 cutting the parts by bringing home.

Ah, so that's pretty much your career spent in like the the sound kind of.

Yeah. So when I lived in San Francisco, I lived in San Francisco from 1980 through 2000. Moved to Madison for a few years down in um San Disco and uh But for the 80s and 90s I worked through in San Francisco working sound engine for life sound

which I still do.

Oh yeah

local stuff in um

you retired or you still work?

I'm semi-retired. I still I'm still working. I I do sound for I work at our local uh uh brew pub doing open mic stuff really nice small town woods

trying to keep It's finally massive cleaned actually.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's a good background and I guess we're on to our last question. Um, how has Burning Man impacted your life?

I I said earlier it's always Birdie Man to me, you know, after being to every one of them, you know, they all blend together. It's been one long and sense. Um,

but why do it? Why keep doing it? Like what keeps you coming back?

That's a great question and there's a easy answer that uh my birthday is August 30th which always is in the week of the you and sometimes it's burn night. Yeah, Andy. Yeah. Yeah. I came to her birthday party last year. Um yeah, she August 30th I

31st or something like that. I can't remember.

So um yeah, every seven years the burden is on my birthday. So So you know For the years I thought, oh maybe I'm not this year. As it gets closer I say, what the heck? There's no other better place to be. It's like

there's no reason not to go uh that I, you know, that's ever so I've been to go. It's amazing place. I mean, the energy there, it's this vortex of gifted. It's like another Disneyland reality. It's beyond Disneyland.

It's not I haven't been to Disneyland every year, but I go to one. And do you still go with your family or do you still camp with the same friends?

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Family camp generally.

Yeah.

Um yeah. And recently you know with the brain I follow them with a group that's brainiac camps that was sitting these guys had a brain art car and um yeah so you know brain is so easy to get taken up. That's just my experience and you know my my kind of you know doing brain is you meet your numbers and find people need help after you get yourself set up and plug in and

the bonding that happens there. It's just an easy way to do very nice with your neighbors first. And it's always, you know, there's always everything is always a neighborhood of something going on.

Yeah.

Doing great stuff,

creative inspiration.

Yeah. Yeah. As Chef Juke said, he has to him like the three pillars of Bernie man, his experience was uh uh I'm trying to remember now. It's like awe inspiration and community.

Yeah.

You know, and so because Yeah. Talking about like, you know, awe like a child seeing something for the first time, but also, you know, even

Yeah.

like the most jaded of of people, you know, like I've been everywhere, done seen that like you see something like, wow,

I look how they did that. That's incredible. I never would have thought about that.

I want to go back to a story that popped in my head just now. When I was like seven or so, I I just wonderful memory of going for long walks with my dad living in Palo Alto. Walk across town and go across the Stanford campus and in the Stanford campus there's sculptures. There's a lot of art on the campus. It's very expensive and um and I just remember going for this long walk with my dad and coming across sculptures like that. I so much you know that was the essence that was burning and it is burning that little nooks and crannies in the default world or whatever it burning. totally exists in a default world, you know, exist in the mix of families. And that's what Pichony did. You know, Picophony Society was like, we had so much fun creating s*** in the cracks, you know, and you could go in San Francisco and spend, you know, bundles of money going to theater and going out to fancy, which is awesome,

but if you didn't have money, which we didn't, you know, it was amazing fun to be had, you know. I mean, just, you know, like the the New Year's treasure hunter. Chinese town uh New Year's parade and there's just thousands of people and mayhem everywhere and you're running around trying to navigate with crew of people to solve these u

uh um what do you call it solve whatever riddles or puzzles

treasure hunt puzzles. Um craziness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kacop was there was and burning man is just all part of that.

Does Kacop still like do stuff like that in Burn You know, I'm sure, you know, to me what kind of put the end of Kacop the way it had been was

they all got old.

Very simple. What what happened was um well, there's Burning Man was big. A lot of people put energy into that, but it was the internet because

you know what we call snail mail. Cacophony existed in that realm of snail mail. Every month we get this newsletter. It was like you're waiting for that subscription to come in and there'd be this list And it was very analog, extremely analog, fully snail mail. So when the internet came out,

Scott Beiel, if you haven't, you know, Scott Beiel, yeah, he started the Squid List, you know, and it was basically a listing that would come out, I think, I don't know, every day or at least every week of all the s*** happening. So all of a sudden, it kind of like you didn't need to wait for this letter to come in the mail that was custom sent out with this um printed, you know, monthly schedule of events that people listed things and you know people could it was way quicker and and more immediate and living in San Francisco I'd go to three events in one night you know I had a motorcycle you could park anywhere and you know I was when I moved to Mendescino it was massive uh withdrawals you know from that amount of cultural activity in San Francisco at the time

but I changed lifestyles big time.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well it's you know like it happened with me too you know it's like I my son was born in 2008 my last year in the ply was 2011 and now 2024 is my first after 13 years going back when you know my son was 16 now he's 17

but uh you know life life intru

yeah yeah hey hey my son Sage he went to burning down he was seven weeks old we we were like stir crazy at home had a home birth and

um and I didn't think we were going but I had a camper in my truck and we say we have tickets so let's go and that's 2001 He's gone just before running seven weeks and um we thought well if it doesn't work we'll just leave you know but we were stir crazy at home it's like let's go and um he thrived and we were there for like five years and it was wonderful

and he's been going every year

he went he went up till he was three so first four years of his life okay at zero then at one two three and then he didn't go for like five years and then he came back when he was nine or so and went from pretty much straight for a number of years and Um and my certificate

just it's just kind of funny.

Yeah. No, but that would just be interesting to think, you know, it's just like, oh, that's what my parents do. That's so boring. You know,

or just or to be like the, you know, eight, five or six years old, like, you know, jaded burner. He was like, oh yeah,

you should have seen the things I thought when I was

It's a great playground. No doubt. You know,

for kids,

kids have a great time finding them.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, and adults should Yep. Yep. That's right. Totally.

All right. Well, I this has been an amazing interview. Um

uh let's see. But uh if anybody wants to reach you, do you have uh not not a phone number, but uh like an email or anything like if you want anyone to contact you?

Oh, um I burning You don't have to.

Yeah, I have a burning man. Burning danb burning.com.org needs to become

burning down. Oh, burning dash Dan.

Yeah, I changed it one time. This was straight burning dam, but I put the dash in it because I was getting a bunch of junk and spam burning dan burning.org.

Oh, okay. Um, and anything any projects of yours or anything you want to plug or let let other people know?

There's the brain, the man's brain. Put your thought in it.

Do you have like a like a link for that or anybody can like if there's a site where they can kind of follow or be like, "Oh, that's kind of Santa Fe. I want to see that.

You know, I haven't enlisted anybody on the crew to do that. I just kind of stay away from social media generally. I don't Yeah.

You know, I just don't have the bandwidth is what I say.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sucked into it. But, um, there should be. And if somebody stepped up to run it, should get an Nani on it.

Yeah.

He's He's all over that.

Hear that, Anani? You've just been uh Shanghai.

What's that?

Hear that, Anani? You just been Shanghai.

Oh, no. He's been on the He's been on the crew for years. He's already on the crew. I just haven't talked to him about doing that. I don't know why I'm doing it. He's such a blow.

Well, thank you so much, Dan. This has been good to meet you. Pleasure. And uh

I'm glad to talk about it because yeah, I'm just holding all this story and I don't talk to people.

I know. Well, no. And it's

I get very rarely very rarely. I don't know. I I don't know. See,

yeah. I mean, I've kind of been a student of all this, you know, my whole time, my whole my Burning Man if you know, but like I I don't think I've until I talked to Inani, he was like, "Have you ever talked to Dan Dan Miller?" And I was like,

"Who's that,

you know?" Well, anyway, thank you very much. 

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