EP 28 Monique Schiess

Episode 28 with Monique Schiess is out now. Meet Monique, a pivotal co-founder of AfrikaBurn, the largest regional Burning Man event. The conversation explores the evolution of the burn movement in South Africa, detailing how Schiess and a small group of "renegades" adapted the desert festival model to a landscape defined by extreme economic inequality and a history of activism. A significant portion of the dialogue addresses the philosophical tensions between grassroots anarchy and the "corporatized" top-down structures that often emerge as these events scale. Schiess shares her personal journey of professional burnout and organizational conflict, ultimately advocating for the burn as a transformative tool for social change rather than mere entertainment. She concludes by highlighting her current project, a documentary titled "From Ashes," which aims to capture the authentic, non-commercial essence of the community she helped build.

You can contact her at monique.schiess@burningman.org

https://www.afrikaburn.org/

The documentary about Afrikaburn:

from.ashes.story.of.afrikaburn (Instagram)

afrikaburn documentary crowdfunding campaignBackaBuddyhttps://www.backabuddy.co.za › campaign › from-ashe… (crowdfunding campaign)

fromashes2007@gmail.com 

Please visit https://shadowoftheman.buzzsprout.com/ for all of the details and links.

Email shadowofthemanpodcast@gmail.com if you want to be a guest or if you have any concerns about the show.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Good day. It's that Andy. Today our guest is Monique Shice.

Oh, pronounce it Sheece. Ah. Okay.

Yes.

Sorry. So, we were just talking offline. Um, so I'm in Hawaii and she's in South Africa. Like, you are actually the the the farthest distance from on the planet from me. This is my farthest guest so far. Um, I did record um Paradox Pollock and he lives in Bali. The timing trying to figure out the time zones was was was fun. That'll come out in October.

But, uh, and actually this episode, this is supposed to come out uh September 1st. So if anyone's listening to this in the Exodus line, it's okay. You're going to make it through and you're gonna have a fun time listening to Monique Shice.

So welcome she like cheese.

It's fun. People make mistakes. Shice actually means s*** in German whereas she means shoot cuz my family from a line of hunts people. Yes.

Yes.

Okay. So Uh what was your first Burning Man and what got you to go to Burning Man? You said you were actually in Hawaii like when you decided do you wanted to you first going to go to Burning Man?

Yeah. Um so my first Burning Man was 2004. Um I I'd been working kind of in the in in the kind of creative field in Cape Town and and a friend of mine had returned from America and he'd been to Burning Man and he told me about this thing called Burning Man, a friend called Ralph Boland. And so, so it was kind of in my peripheral kind of vision um sitting in the back of my head. And then um I met I met a man who I was later to marry and we were traveling in he he used to live in San Francisco for a while, South African guy. Um and he yeah we were traveling and um he had said yeah he'd been to Burning Man a couple of times and He said, "Yeah, no. I'm done with Burning Man." And I was like, "Well, I'm not. I'd like to go." So, so we extended our trip and went. Interestingly enough, though, being the youngest of five, there's a certain amount of kind of optimal neglect that happens of the fifth child. And I'd never learned to ride a bike. And I was like, "Well, I'm going to be Yeah. I mean, I could fly an airplane before I could ride a a bicycle." So,

Wow.

Yeah. So, so we went and hired a a crappy bike in Hawaii. And I learned how to ride cuz I was like, well, I'm not going to Burning Man without knowing how to ride a bike. So,

yeah.

Yeah.

You wouldn't want to like break your ankle like the first day either, you know?

Yeah. No,

no. Suboptimal to break your ankle on the first day.

Yeah. It was It was quite a It was a heady experience riding on my in my glitter catsuit on the on the plier for the first time.

Wow. Wow. So, that was 2004. I'm trying to remember it. Yeah. And I'm

the man the man was on a on a geodeic dome.

Okay. Yeah,

that was what the man base was. Yeah.

I'm not sure that that was either the year I met Jenn Well, you know, Jenny K, right? We're good good friends. Um,

absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm trying to remember it was 2003 or 2004 I met her. It might have been the year. I don't know. Anyway, side note. Um, yeah. So, and you've have you How often have you been since then?

Well, to Burning Man.

Has it been six times? 04, 08,

you know, 04, 06, 08, 16, 13, 22. Yeah. Six times. I've been to Burning Man six times. But, but then obviously there's been a fair amount of Africa burns in between.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, talk about, you know, I know it's difficult coming from Hawaii to go to Bing, but South Africa, how how long a flight Is that you mean you

Well, usually if you're getting the the cheap flights, there's about three stops on the way and so it kind of takes about, you know, a day or two to get to get to the states. Yeah.

Wow.

Um and then obviously the the um the challenging exchange rate is is not something to sniff at either.

Yeah. Yeah.

So So when you first went, was it just you and your boyfriend or like do you have other friends you camp with?

Well, no. He had a he had a fantastic crew in San Francisco from when he lived there. They had run a camp called Camp Juicy. Um but that year in 2004, everyone had kind of clubbed together to make an um a mutant vehicle which was called Night Juice. Um yeah, and which it was an old Cadillac and you know we painted and mounted a moon on the top and a chariot and you know it was it was a it was a fun little project.

Um and we had a lot of fun. It was great. Wow. Um,

so, uh, what happened after that? I mean, you said it was a couple years before you went back to Burning Man, but, um, how how did Africa Burn come about or what did you do when you got back?

Well, when we when when I got back, I I actually recently found a diary entry that I wrote in my in my diary in October of 2004. And it was I I kind of had felt that that I was a little bit bored of what I was doing at the time and wanted to try something different. And so number three on the list was try and start a burn in South Africa. Um and and so by 2007 it had happened you know it was kind of also again sitting it was just it was just dating in the back of my mind. Um and then Paul Jorgensson arrived in South Africa who and he also wanted to do the same thing and then a kind of a loose a loose grouping of kind of weird renegades as it usually turns out with these things um clubbed together and started Africa Burn.

Wow. I mean I take it just start off as just Africa Burn, right? Did you guys like like socially just kind of get together or you know like little meet and greets or you know?

Well, we we we' kind of been so so we went to our first Richard and Well, I went to my first burn in 2004. uh Richard who was my boyfriend at the time, but then we got married. We've since been divorced though. Um you know, we had a group of friends and we we spoke about it a lot and we did a slideshow at a um gallery kind of educating people about the art of Burning Man and slowly it kind of we just started snowballing it because because that was the subject of conversation and we managed to get most of those friends to Burning Man in 2006. Um and the installation at the time was you know what what's going to be able to travel. So I thought that a distinctly African thing would be to have a beautiful herd of giraffes out on the plier at dusk. So we were the giraffes at dusk and we made so we made we made these giraffe outfits out of um high density foam and out and then and then we'd we'd go out as this big herd of giraffes which is a very simple thing to do but oh my god was the effect

astounding. Oh my god, I don't think I've ever had so much fun in my life. It was such fun and it had

it had such a it had such a strong effect people and the the interactions that we had. So like obviously animal control found us

and there was just all this like extended like tom foolery and play and kind of like wrestling us to the ground and us running around and anything that looked like a predator would try and stalk us and it was it was just extended. It went on and on. and on and on and on and actually at that point um the the giraffes were out on the plier at dusk and um I I'm I'm a I I used to I I grew up in the bush and excuse me I used to be a game ranger.

Oh wow.

So that image that image of of kind of like that classical African image of you know beautiful animals walking through the plains at dusk was you know a thing and we managed to recreate it in the most obscure way

at at Burning Man.

That's incredible.

But Made Marion drove past us in her cat car and she said, "Oh my god, you've got to go and speak to Larry and we were like, "Oh, okay." So, she said, "He's standing there in first camp." So, we all walked there and we met we met Larry. Um, and actually Paul Jorgensson then heard about these giraffes from South Africa who'd come to the to the burn and he um he then contacted us when he was back in South Africa and He kind of pulled res resources.

So who's Paul Hurgensson? Like

Paul Jorgensson's one of the co-founders of Africa Burn. He he then he was he was here for two years and then he moved to Australia and got involved in Burning Seed.

Oh,

Burning Seed. Blazing Swan at one of the Australian burns. Yeah.

Wow. So he just travels around the world starting regional events.

Totally. Yeah.

Wow. Where's he from?

South Africa originally.

Oh, really? Huh.

Um and He left I think in the 80s or yeah in the 80s to avoid conscription went to America.

Um you know it was the dark days of apartate. Um got involved in burning man. He was I think he was with the gamlon and yeah

gamlon x you know the monkey chanting and there was there was there was a village. Yeah.

And then yeah then in the early 2000s he returned to South Africa wanting to bring a burn to South Africa

and we had a we had a mutual friend. I used to do an an event called the Mother City Queer Project um which was celebrating our new constitution and it it was a very queer party and a um collaborative and celebratory and art-based turning waste into art and kind of occupying old part government buildings and turning them queer. And I we used to sell tickets through an obscure little um gallery called the Hennel Gallery and Robert Weinneck um who used to sell tickets for us who ran the Henel Gallery used to go to school with Paul Jorgensson. So that's how the kind of contact between Paul and I happened was through Robert and a woman called Leon Fisser.

Um yeah, so we we we just started having public meetings kind of utilizing kind of our pre-existing kind of networks of creatives and renegades and anyone who was interested obviously you know so

well there must not not have been too many people locally there who had actually been to Burning Man although I mean

there's a lot of interested people

but that was one of the kind of alchemical moments was was at the very first Africa burn where I mean I think that we thought that we'd have about 250 people and kind of 900 arrived in the desert in this extremely remote

wow

place So, so we got a bit of a fright um and had to dig a lot more um toilets. So, and and and one of one of the one of the interesting things was to see the kind of magic that happened where not a critical mass of people had been to the burn. I think there were probably about 10 people who had been to the burn out of those 900

really.

And yeah, and so for me that's that's always kind of proved the theory that You know, like the reason why these burns work so well is it's it's the model. It's our wild sides are sitting just below the surface and want out. You know,

our creativity wants out. It's not

and and it's just um you know, you don't necessarily need to be a culturated. You just need to have the the lomy and fertile soil in which that part that wants to come out of you can come out. And the burn the burn model provides that or did provide that. There are some challenges now. Although

well how did you how does 10 burners acculturate the other 890 you know I mean

I think my point my point is that they don't have to is because

yeah I think I mean look al the other thing is is that the handful of us that were that were starting Africa Burn so it was myself and my history with Mother City Que is an old handyman of the arts like you know they've done all sorts of weird renegade fake gallery these bad galleries um events. Um Leon Fisser who who was black lil who who did these things called the mole parties the mole plus mull in Africans means mad.

Um

okay

yeah Mike Sus was involved in the trans community trans party community. So everyone is very and also don't forget South Africa everyone is accustomed to living outside and camping.

Mhm.

It's a very robust grouping of people. Um

so as I say second nature to them basically.

Absolutely. And and also you know we we we started just by you mailing you know mailing our old mailing lists from our various kind of groupings of of people our little communities that of of which there was a lot of overlap and um yeah and it spontaneously combusted.

Wow. So you said like there was a very just fertile kind of ground to plant this little seed in and it just took off. I mean I mean for people I'm sure most burners listening to this but some people have never been to Bernie man. Um Africa burn I think it is the largest regional burn out there

I believe. So yeah it's been

wow I mean how nowadays how how large is Africa burn? How many people go?

I think the the the last event was 10,000. So and that's just been Yeah. But we we we topped out at 14. 18,000 and we we then brought the numbers down, you know. Um we the the event grew exponentially. It was just astounding. It was like like I got a big fright for me. For me when we had the first event, I was like, "Oh, well, I'm going to be busy for about, you know, a couple of months and then I'm going to get back to doing other things." Not a, you know, it was a it was quite a severe wind tunnel for 15 to 17 years.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, cuz I know in the early days of of Burning Man and Black Rockck Desert, it was like each year were just kind of double, you know, be like 500 and 1,000 and 2,000 and 4,000 like or something like that like

Yeah.

Wow.

It was it was it was something like that. And and but but the the our our team didn't have the capacity to hold too many that that you know like the event was growing exponentially and the organizational kind of capacity to do so was not And so we were run to the ground, you know, it was very

Wow. Let it let it burn out or it's

been a it's been a rollicking adventure. It was a runaway juggernaut basically.

So in 2012 was the first year that we limited numbers and then after 2017 was the year that we actually actively brought our numbers down.

We were like you limited the ticket sales or you only sell so many.

Okay. And then obviously after co there was a big knock. So So The first event after CO was in 2022. Um, and we had moved to our new site and we had gone down from like 27 staff down to seven and so we also co laws hadn't changed. So we were doing this hugely on risk to plan an event. Um, so we had to plan three different kind of like uh city layouts just in case the co, you know, in case they said we could do pods of 2,000 or we could do pods of 500. or you know and having a separate medical facility at each one of them. It was

such a nightmare. Anyway, so so that year in 2022 we also brought it down to 6,000. Um but it's since climbed.

So I mean does anybody do like I mean I take you guys you have some sort of organization right? I mean it's like a like

it's a not for profofit.

Yeah. Non for I mean does anybody actually do this year round? Like is this kind of like their job?

Oh yeah absolutely. Because I mean you would have I would imagine you know like

just the the logistics and

I because when we were doing things here in Hawaii I mean I think the the biggest we only had three events in the jungle and it was uh the biggest was like around 650 and yeah I mean it was a a hefty amount to do like in part times like while everyone's working you know but just imagining like when it's in the thousands you it's like

yeah Oo yeah that's that's a lot

well I I was the kind of first full-time coordinator of most things um and I wasn't able to do so because my husband was supporting me

um at the time so and and then and then it kind of led you know with with the exponential growth of the of the event and also South Africa being a very different climate in which a burn was growing you know we don't you know the the the economic um yeah the economic environment is completely different to that in America you know um there's radical genie coefficient I mean we the winners of the genie coefficient stakes in the world you know the the gap between the the the gap between rich and poor right

oh okay

so so so the result of that is that your volunteers were either wealthy or or extremely poor you know and and people in the were not able to volunteer as much time. You know, there's it's it's just there's a different anatomy to to starting a burn here than it than it I suppose. Not not that anyone started a burn consciously in in America. I mean, that's one of the things that I love about the burn is that it, you know, just an accident of history and different elements. It it evolved. So,

yeah.

And and you know, we didn't have any intention to grow big. We were just being experimental. We were like, let's give this a try. And it just exploded, which was um a surprise. So we were constantly trying to catch up with this exponential growth. Um and then then it reached a complete inflection point in 2011 and I like we were like we we can't actually continue doing this on a volunteer basis. You know, it's just it's growing too big. Like our capacity to do it is, you know, people are burning out, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Um

and so we had a we had a big kind of conference with um uh Steven Rasper and Holly Harley um came out.

Yeah.

And and I think it was the first time that they that they were that Burning Man was okay with um allowing a regional to actually pay people and I suppose the dime was cast, but it

I'm sure you reach a certain point. I mean, it's just you have to, right? I mean, if you're if you're investing all of this time and energy and effort, I mean,

it's like it's unreasonable to just expect it's like oh no you're just going to be a volunteer where whereas you know in San Francisco and working for Black Rock City like oh no this is a year round project and this is our job doing it

and so for a long time I mean it was it from from 2007 for me it was a year round um project I I did nothing else and you know

for 17 years yeah

and um an amazing project kind of ironic adventure, but um but you couldn't and at the time it was interesting because Burning Man was not a not for-p profofit and we were we were a not for-p profofit from 2007. That's how we started, you know.

Yeah.

And so so when they were like, oh, you know, it's supposed to be a volunteer, it's supposed to be a gift and and we were like, okay, and then why are you not a not for-p profofit and why are you paying yourselves?

Yeah.

Um

so there's always this like rich kind of argument that can happen. I Interestingly enough, I mean, I I think that that kind of inflection point mirrors

kind of an inflection point that I feel that that Burns need to look at now as well, which is if everything else is being paid, why are the artists not being paid or are they being paid? You know, like like there's these when when you know the name of your podcast.

Yeah.

But but for me, there are shadow parts of the burn which are

what what's the internal genie coefficient of burns, you know, why do some people get paid and everyone else must volunteer? And so I don't know the answer, but I do know that it needs to be spoken about, you know, especially with the extremely fantastic amazing brains that are involved in this project, you know.

Yeah. I mean, because I think that's sort of how it all started like out there in the playa in the Black Rock Desert. It was just kind of people kind of coming together and then like but like like you said, it's like Yeah. I think you need to have like the nucleus of a certain number of people who are like, you know, coordinating things like year round and yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's a it's that's a it's a it's a difficult thing because I mean it's like I'm sure nowadays a lot of people be like, "Oh, you know, you know how much long I spent building this this art car or this theme camp or I mean whatever art that they're making." I mean, it's astounding to me just the amount of like money and time like people put in these projects like

absolutely

it's it's incredible like um

like uh I remember you remember core right the circle of

yes the cool the core project yeah

yeah so I was the basic inspiration of that the first year right and so I I kind of that's kind of what I do is like I get balls rolling and then I go to a top of a hill and like I roll something down I'm like hey let's see where it goes And it it went pretty far, you know, but uh that was actually by last year, 2011. But then I heard in 2012 it happened again. But then people were telling me they're like, "Oh yeah, like individual regionals were spending like like $50,000." I was like,

"Wow,

what?" You know, like

Yeah. Wow. That's that's that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

But um

you know, fundamentally The thing is an experiment. So you can try things and then they go in that direction and then they stop or they go in that direction and then they stop or they go in that direction and they accelerate and they snowball and

Yeah.

So

Africa burn like so your participants are they all just like local or like uh like like from South Africa like how many people do you get from like who travel there?

Um so so recently well in in more recent years the international um contingent has grown dramatically.

Um yeah, a good a good 50 and I'm sure and we don't have the stats from this year but the it's been 50% for a very long time. Hovering around the 50% mark.

50.

Yeah.

Yeah. 50.

And there's a lot of expats living in South Africa. You you know the thing is is that it's because of its

size it's very it's kind of I we a lot of we we used to call them time travelers um because it's people wanting to experience Burning Man in the '9s, you know, they come to Africa cuz it's so much smaller and a little bit rougher around the edges and a little bit more kind of lawless.

Um and drive by shooting range.

No, we don't. We we we did never have that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um and Yeah. So, and and and they they participate beautifully as well. And because also the other thing is is that it's it's a much cheaper burn to come to because our currency is extremely weak. So, you're getting a big bang for your dollar or your euro or your pound or whatever, you know.

Um

I'm just wondering like logistically how that works, you know, cuz it's like like if half your participants are coming, it's like how do they bring their like theme camps and like well you can't bring an art car but or just you know

people do well because because because there's people who Africa burn is their burn. They don't and so there are storage facilities. There's art cars all over the show. There's uh infrastructure. We've got we've also got a container program um with the new land. That was one of the things is to be able to support the um creative community and also it's just far more environmentally friendly then rather than trucking stuff up and down between Cape Town and Johannesburg and back. So, so people can buy containers and then they leave them on site. And so their stuff is on in storage kind of close to the actual event site.

Um,

do do international burners like help like I I don't know if you have like like oh the international tickets are more expensive than like the local tickets or or just like container program. I mean I mean in some ways it's like maybe it will help like subsidize you know more like local South Africans who couldn't quite afford it or

Yeah, we've got what are called Mayday tickets which is a a ticket price which is far higher than the cost that it is to have people on site. And then those subsidized directly um what is called our anati program um which is which was specifically designed to um deal with the issues around radical inclusion particularly in the South African instance where you know low income is different in this country than it is you know in America. So for the first couple of years we had the same tiered system as Burning Man with low-inccome tickets but low income in this country is relative. So we designed the nuti program which sells tickets at a tenth uh 10% of the cost. Um so it's extremely heavily subsidized and associated with that there are access grants so transport to site um welfare grants so you know because there's one thing about kind of dealing with barriers to entry which very often people think are only financial um But agency while you're on site is another thing. Um then the other thing is is that if if there are projects in in the in the grant assessment for awarding creative grants for for creative projects um a very heavy waiting is on how inclusive your team is and the kind of reaching out across classic old barriers South African barriers you know

um and it's really working those interventions work. Um, and it's and and and I don't think anyone who is idealistic or any organization who think who who who positions themsself as idealistic can be passive about integration, especially if you've got a um principle called radical inclusion. Um, and we changed the wording on our radical inclusion principle um to reflect to reflect structural inequality and and historical inequality and structural and historical and current issues and we endeavor to so it's everyone can be a part of the burn

um to but but we are going to we're going to endeavor to overcome those barriers to entry.

Wow. So how how diverse is Africa burn? I mean

certainly not diverse enough. Um but it's changing. It is definitely changing. which is good and and so I think that's also a lesson to the to the default world is that proper interventions work you know

and and and we must we must con constantly strive and endeavor to do more.

Yeah. And do you guys do events like I mean outside of Africa brand like like meet and greets or other like events like during the year and I mean also South Africa is a large country too. I mean you must have like a like different uh groups in different cities or

Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, Johannesburg has got a very strong burner community. Um and they self-organized their own decompressions and um a lot of in in recent years the um temple has been built in Johannesburg and so so that's been a big kind of like pulling together of the international community. I mean the Johannesburg community but I mean you know the community is the community. I mean like there's far foreigners, there's locals, there's all sorts of people, you know, who kind of smashed together, but physically it was placed in Johannesburg and it was certainly

supported massively by the Johannesburg community

and but I mean it's the self-organizing principle. People must organize themselves. So there are and then there's now a new little burn in Namibia. There's other little burns around the country as well. Yeah.

But we almost like a microcosm of the states where Africa burn is the big one that people come to and then and then There's all these smaller ones that that kind of are around the

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we call, you know, I mean, I'm sure you know this already, but we call the um we call Burning Man the the um Gerlac regional.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's kind of interesting. It almost has like a kind of I was reading this somewhere. It's like that the Black Rock City sort of has like a gravity to it, you know, where it's like maybe if that was like the sun then all the other regionals be like the planets, but you know, they kind of

like

perhaps without Black Rock City, they would all just sort of fly off and do their own different things, but uh

I don't know. I mean, at least it was like initial like inspiration, you know, but I think it's a it's kind of a two-way street, you know? I mean, but uh

Yeah. No, it is. I I I mean, for me personally, the the that narrative, it kind of irritates me a little bit.

All right. Um yeah, you you can't absolutely cannot deny that that the the magic that happened in Black Rock City and happens in Black Rock City is magic. It's it's a thing that is extremely important. But I must say when we have a lot of discussions on the regionals and um workshops and stuff, the absolute concentration on the words burning man irritate me because it's actually burns that are doing the work in the world.

It's not it's not necessarily only Burning Man. And I think that that there's there's there's almost a hierarchy there which which I don't think fits according to the principles of what this thing is, you know.

Um because you can have an absolutely mindblowing experience at a you know at a at a 10erson tiny burn event, you know, more than than at like um at Burning Man, you know, you don't know

at 80,000.

Yeah.

I mean, exactly.

Certainly 80,000 can be quite challenging.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you'll definitely have more personal Yeah. I mean, I think that's why, you know, the the regionals, I mean, for for many years and and for for people also now who are like, oh, you know, they want to experience something like a smaller scale, it's or or kind of like you said like a time machine like kind of going back in time, but Yeah, I I think it's I I've always kind of thought like it's just one of those kind of laws of large numbers. It's like once things kind of start getting big, you know, they they start just getting out of control and or things just kind of started like going in directions or like you said your even your experience with like with Africa burn, you know, it's just your your levels of like in the organization, you know, like what people could put in wasn't matching like your attendance and you know, it's things can get out of hand. So you know so I mean these 10 100 person 500 person you know it's like it's

it's very nice actually it's more like human in level like interactions you have with each other.

Yeah.

But I think it's also it's how you engage with it and there's so so many variables that could create that transformative experience you know because at its best iteration a burn is a portal through which you leap. And it doesn't matter whether it's the first time that you put up a tent or camped before, whether it's the first time you've expressed yourself by putting a piece of art out there, whether it's the first time you dropped your kit and ran around naked, whether it's, you know, there's there's so many different ways or you found a new genre or you danced all night or you slept all night and got silly in the day. Whatever the whatever the expression, whatever it is, we can't control that. We've just got to make sure our job is to make sure that the soil is in integrity and is fertile, that there's a lot of different minerals and organic matter that you can draw from according to whatever you need to have a beautiful experience. And I think and I think that that's where my irritation with the absolute focus on Burning Man specifically just in discussion. Like Burning Man is amazing. I'm not I'm not cutting it down at all, but That's where my frustration with the the the the the single-minded focus on Burning Man, Burning Man, Burning Man, Burning Man comes in. I mean, even when I hear it in my head, I can hear it in the American accent. It's like Burning Man. It's like chanting all this. I'm just like, "Okay, God, stop that because it's burn. It's burns that do the work, you know." And Jamie Will wrote this really nice piece about the he he brought it down to three different Burning Mans and is like there's the there's the burning man that is astounding. You get to the plier and you're like blown away by big art and amazing things and beautiful scenery and this and that and that and blah blah. Um it's Instagrammable. It's you know it's pretty it's like gorgeous. You know you have some fun. Then there's the Burning Man that where where it's it's inspired you to move into like to do something else. It's inspiring you're like wow s***. That's possible. I can do that.

But the one that we should be aiming for is the Burning Man that cracks you open.

And that's not necessarily an easy thing. So that's why convenience culture is a threat to the burn projects, the the project of the burn, which is in its best iteration to be a portal as transformative space. I always just call the burn a tool. You know, Africa burn is a tool. M

burning man is a tool for change and and for me the big point the inflection point for me where I believe that burns are at the moment is the question of there's this mythop poetic moment in the history of burning man which I love it captured my imagination completely when we were starting Africa burn was where Michael they stand at the at the the black rock city zone trip where they've just taken the man art to black rock city for the first time with the cacophony society, Michael Michael draws a line in the sand and he says on the other side of this line, everything will be different.

Mhm. Oh yeah.

And 30 years on for Burning Man or 32, whatever it is, and 17 years on for Africa Burn, it's just a question. Is it not time to draw a line in the sand and say, "Okay, we're stepping back over into the default world and saying on the other side of this line, everything will be different because of everything we've learned back there." And certainly for me, My involvement in in burns in getting Africa burns started in in kind of you know being deeply involved in it for so many years was informed by that. I saw it as a tool for change not just and and revalry and fun etc. so important but it's it's it's festival as a portal not as entertainment and we've got to be very very careful about resting on our laurels and thinking that we are just there because we've got a formula that works cuz it's getting a little bit formulaic and certainly I do know that a hell of a lot of change has happened in the default world due to the experimental portals that people leap through at the burns. Um But I almost I want to accelerate that. I want to amplify that part of it. I want to challenge people that actually it's about and and that's purely because the default world is in such a f****** s*** show right now and it has been for a long time. You know, the s*** show has been building and it's crescendoing, you know. You know, and like Larry said, never waste a good crisis. But but and then there was another thing that he he pointed out is that why why is experiment ation so important and why is that creative energy so important and collaboration etc is because we because when s*** goes down we have a lot of ideas lying around and the burn does have a lot of ideas lying around and so we've got to we've got to be extremely honest about saying what about the burn is emulating the default world to the extent that it's potentially losing some of its portal breakthrough effect And I don't know what the answer is, but I know that asking the right question is about ask is is leads to finding the right answer.

And so I'm not say I'm not I'm not just like bearing down on Burning Man. I feel like I feel like every burn will reach this inflection point and every social movement reach re reaches that inflection point, you know,

and there are core questions like does anarchy scale? Does, you know, is this just inevitable? Is this, you know, and and yeah. But some funny enough some deep shadow work is important for all burns to make sure that we are doing remaining relevant I think in terms of changing the world.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry that's my sermon for the morning.

Yeah. No, I mean that's incred I mean that's totally true and I mean it's kind of what we do with a regionals. I mean like I mean I'm sure we're saying like people are sitting in Exodus right now thinking about like oh what can I do with Bernie man next year but like how about thinking of going back to where you're living and doing some you know bringing Burning Man back to

to your area or getting involved.

Uh I mean is burners borders you know there's there's all sorts of you know things you get involved with like in

your your own area. Um yeah so so what is the status of Uh, Africa Burn now. Uh, are you are you still like working with Africa Burn or like you there's no?

No, no, no. Um, I was fired from Africa Burn.

Oh.

Um, yeah. Really?

In July last year. Yes.

Oh my god. Sorry, I didn't know.

No, thank you.

Oh.

Um, I can giggle about it now. Um,

wait. You we worked for this what 16 years and

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so I mean it's for for me it's it's it's a it's it's a useful um almost mythop poetic moment where um a founder of a co sorry a co-founder of a movement that has its taproot in anarchy gets fired for gross insubordination. Um,

wow. You didn't follow the rules.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

I um I reached burnout in 20 in 2023, no 2022 after co and the move to the new land. But it had been a very very very intense um many years um and having been the first full-time coordinator of everything, there was a legacy of kind of encoded in job descriptions and kind of what I did. which my plate was too full.

And um there was this moment of trying to narrow down what I was doing but at the same time it was co so we we kind of got rid of most we we had to retrench everyone. I was also entrench sorry retrenched I was also retrenched but we were then on on a kind of but basically the workload instead of getting smaller is getting bigger. Plus, the challenges were astounding with CO regulations, with no money, um, with moving to the new land. It it was astounding. I mean, having to do three town plans, having to do all the kind of statutory anyway, I fell to my knees. I was burnt out. I was completely burnt out. Um, and I was put on a sbatical. Um, and as part of the sbatical, one of the interpretations that happened was that I was not to attend the event in 2023.

Really?

Um yeah, and I really really really desperately wanted to attend the event. So I tried I tried to comply. I I sat at home crying for a good um couple of days and then eventually I um I borrowed a friend's car and I snuck in because I obviously I knew this the security systems and I wore a big mask to show that that I wasn't there. Um, so I snuck in for 36 hours, hugged everyone I loved, and then left. And then a year later, they found out and they fired me for such.

Um, obviously there's more to the story. Um, yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, that's that's it in a nutshell.

Did you go this year?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I love the burn. I absolutely love it. I um I volunteered on the clan, which is our version of the man, and I do I do I love doing the large scale construction. I've I've done a lot of building of artworks through the years

and um

Well, is it more enjoyable actually like not being the like organizer and and just kind of like making your own art and

I mean that that was that was why I wanted to go in 23. I was just like I've never ever been to the burn without the yoke of responsibility.

Um I and and so I just wanted to have long conversations and actually, you know, dance all night and, you know, get

actually experience it and work.

Also, the other thought that might was quite exciting was actually sleeping a little bit.

I got to tell you, for everyone out there, sleeping is so underrated.

Oh, no.

So, so yeah. Um, but I mean, look, for me, the big the biggest story is that for me, what happened to me is a symptom of what I believe is a inappropriate organizational structure that was then instituted. Um, and I believe from what I know from from this the side is that I believe that that's that's the same story at Burning Man is that there's there's quite a top- down hierarchical organizational structure

that was instituted at Africa Burn and it led to a lot of conflict and a lot of conflict centered around me because I was saying I don't think that this is appropriate for a cultural movement. Um, because it's interesting finding the sweet spot between in achieving organizational kind of like just the optimal amount of structure to hold this chaotic space, right?

Yeah.

It's it's it's such a fine-tuned thing to kind of twiddle the knobs to the degree that you are not being top down because as I said earlier, the tap routt is in anarchy and those principles are fundamentally important. You know, the self-organization and Larry always talked about the the irony of like starting this thing with its tap routt and anarchy and then you end up becoming the fuzz and like policing people which is not a comfortable space to be.

Yeah.

If you are fundamentally an anarchist um and an anarchist not being the kind of like classic punk throwing a molotov cocktail but a proper one which is the governance from the bottom up you know

and so a lot of the consultative processes had started leeching out of the Africa burn structure and I was not happy about it and it led to a lot of internal conflict. Um,

why do you think that was? I mean, was it just kind of a necessary thing for because things just happened that way or or was it kind of more directed?

You mean the changing of the organizational structure?

Yeah.

Well, I think I think it's a matter of interpretation because the fundamental goal that they were trying to achieve was to achieve more accountability and more transparency. which are excellent goals. That's a that's a great thing to do. That's that's not a problem with it. It's just the way that they wanted to achieve that. For me, I could see that there were problems coming down the line in terms of accountability to the community and and consultation with the community. So, and I think you know we we did everything on committees and we had a lot of town halls and we had a lot of community consultation around everything and it's not efficient. It's a hell of a lot of work.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

But the but efficiency is not our metric. You know, that's not what you're trying to do. You're trying to create that that scaffolding that holds the space for a magical renegade experimental keep the radical in it, you know, things to happen. So not going, oh well, we create a space and we put big art and we wear blinky lights. No, that's not what it is. It's something from the bottom up. Um and so so that's and I and so so so kind of what ended up happening is that then then there was a whole kind of way of electing directors and currently a lot of the directors and I think that this played into my story is a lot of the directors don't even know me um and there was narrative built around me and so so there there are there's a lack of kind of checks and balances around these things. It's It's kind of using default world metrics for something that is not supposed to be default world and and finding the optimal amount of that like kind of

and I and I'm going to just put put my neck out on this, but I I don't think that the as far as I know the structure at Burning Man, I also don't think that it's necessarily absolutely appropriate for a cultural movement either. Like like the CEO model for me doesn't make sense. Why why is why does one person have that much power? And My disclaimer is I don't know Marian so I don't you know it's not necessarily about the individual. It's about it's in fact it's completely not it's not about the individual at all. It's about the structure um and and not having enough checks and balances within that. And so you lose things like institutional knowledge. You use you lose stuff like um yeah just kind of the the the kind of holding the cultural and and philosophical center. Um And yeah, so so that's that was my experience and it's it's fine. I mean like for me it was an extremely painful uh experience to go through but I I so I don't necessarily trust the processes that took place to lead me where I am but I do trust the universe that I need to move on to something new. So

yeah. Well, one thing one question it almost seems like there's a certain like life cycle to to Burns to Bernie man itself to like I mean people get like get involved like I mean I don't know I mean it's not quite like as simple as like overwork like and then burnout you know but but um I don't know I mean whether it's like a theme camp or like an art car or like running a regional or or anything like that like I think there's a kind of like a life cycle and then like at a certain point um you you kind of graduate you know and you move on you know you move on to but but it's like don't just like leave it behind, right? Because you you you take like those lessons with you and you just kind of evolve and make like a different opportunity.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

No, I mean it is it's as as as it's supposed to be. It it it is life-changing.

Yeah. So So how about for you for for now? I mean um you you were involved heavily involved with Africa Burn for 16 years and this happened. But uh you know what's next for you? I mean how are you going to take those lessons and transform it into something else?

Well very very initially um we've been working on a movie. In fact we we started working on the movie

um about nine years ago um with a fantastic maverick renegade woman called Janette Davillas who was a volunteer on our theme camp committee and every time kind of we were talking about issues or things like that I would be telling stories and she was like, "Oh my god, these are stories that are so great. We've got to tell the background story. We've got to capture more of what the kind of essence behind the burn is, not the kind of like mediaenic kind of festy insta look, you know." And so we started working on this movie. She she pushed that ball up a hill in a big big way. But um now that I'm set free from Africa Burn organization I like to distinguish between the organization and the actual community because I'm deeply immersed in the community. Um, which is what the real burn is, you know, like the the org is it should be a detail. Um,

yeah, I mean,

but obviously it was a huge part of my life, but anyway, so we're working on this movie um trying to raise funds for it now. Um, and so so so it's it's been through many iterations. Um, and it's It's it's currently it's a story Yeah. And this is where it is. It's a story of evolution. It's a story of what happens to social movements um for one of a better term when elements of them become corporatized. It's and it's it's not an expose at all. It's a deeply philosophical and anthropological piece. Um and we hope that it's and we're just going to we're going to ask questions basically because a good question is like a portal into another way of thinking. And And um so that's that's what the movie is about. And we've got a treasure trove of footage. I think it's fantastic.

Wow.

Um it's and it's also been quite a quite a processive time for me kind of reviewing all the footage, you know, interviews with myself and Robert and Paul and everyone from

2000 2007, you know.

Well, it's funny cuz when you're talking about the the draft thing, like this the whole time we were talking about it, my my mind was just like I hope you got pictures of that because I I know Like every time I do something right where I'm just like yeah I'm just like I never get pictures of it because it's like I'm usually the one taking the pictures you know and it just it'll just live on in memory of people like that was so wonderful but it's

it's amazing that you could you know you'd have some saved footage from that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So um I guess we went on to the second question like uh so what's your background like before you met Burning Man like uh like what was your How' you where'd you grow up? And

so I grew up in Ptoria which is the capital city of South Africa. Um during a partate um I was born in the 70s in 72.

Oh okay.

Yeah. And it's it was extremely challenging to live in a very big sea of conservatism. in the only kind of creative hippie enclave that existed in Pritoria. So my parents um my parents were in in the theater, my father was a playwright and director, my mom an actress um and so so it was a very interesting for me. I grew up witnessing art as activism. So art was in everything and I also went to the world of school so and a lot a lot of the medium through which they teach is creative and artistic. So, so for me when I arrived at Burning Man, it wasn't like, oh wow, this has opened up my creative world, it was more like a confirmation. It was like, mhm, this is how it's supposed to be, you know? It was so

I've been training for this. Yeah.

It was like, oh, look, everything that I know on scale um and beautiful and whimsical and fun and playful and be, you know, the I really, you know, I think that the the physical um harshness combined with beauty of the desert is such a key key element as well, you know, because access to wilderness is so important. So yeah, I grew up in conservative Ptoria um in the hippie enclave um watching watching people make anti-aparted statements through art, you know, the the classic trickster formula. Um but a but a desperate time, you know, watch watching structures that are not that that are absolutely brutal and and horrendous and that and I'm a white person living in South Africa, so it's easy for easier for me, but but the um watching that injustice and and you know doing whatever tiny thing you could do to counteract it. Um and certainly um theater and art was the way and you know so we were in a big kind of artist community. Um but it was quite interesting that that was in a completely it was completely dominated by conservatism. And then the counterpoint to that was that I used to spend a hell of a lot of time in the bush um in the African bush pretty much. We were there for a couple months every year and that was very so I'm very very comfortable in the wilderness. Um and and then I so when I left school I wanted to become a pilot. So I did my pilot's license and then I moved to the bush. And I was a game ranger for a while. And then um and then I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And then the local Sangoma, which is like a African shaman, she threw the bones and she said, "No, you need to move to the big water." She'd never been to the ocean. And so I moved to Cape Town. Cuz I got offered a job two weeks later. And so I thought, "Well, I should just listen to Maria." And so I moved to Cape Town. And I was just a pairing actually. And then um but also in a very Cape was always a much more um liberal place in South Africa during those dark days and um and actually it was it was 94. It was it was his liberation year. It was it was when Mandela became president.

What year was it?

He became president in '94.

94. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Um so I moved to Cape Town and I started working on a an event that my cousin had started called the Mother City Queer Project. Um and they were celebrating the the new constitution. We we had we now had the best constitution in the world. Um and while they had been marching for gay rights all these years, we were now just celebrating all the rights. So it was a it was an event again art based

and designed around all the nons non- aist, non- sexist, non racist, non blah blah blah and really pushing queer culture. Um, and so that's that was kind of that was my tap routt into into that was my foundation of large events, you know, even though I'd seen my parents, you know, organizing and mobilizing

around productions, etc. my whole life.

Um,

is queer culture like accepted in South Africa or what's the relationship?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, look, you know, they

because you said it was kind of a conservative country. Well, at least during a part era, you know, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's I mean compared to other African countries and compared to I mean legally it's it's the foundation is laid as absolutely

100% you know on on on point. Um

but yeah, you still get you still get a lot of bigotry here and there. Um but it's but it's largely accepted. It's you know it's but people are still marching and still you know there's always work to do. There's always work to do. At the time, we were we were using the word queer as an alternative turn of thought, not necessarily about kind of gayness or queerness or whatever, like sexual preference style,

but as as as just a a mindset. Um, and you know, we would go to all the factories and we'd collect waste and we would challenge artists to make art out of waste and then we would change, you know, change the whole environments. Um, and the the key also was completely different genres. Um, so, so there was there was something for everybody. Big band music, rock, you know, trans, all the different genre genres. I mean, these days there's so many. I don't know think we would have enough rooms for them. Um, disco. Um,

so by the time you even made it to Burning Man, it's like you're a pilot, you're a bush ranger, you've been helping to organize the the the queer events, like you the artistic stuff. It's like you're you're ready. Yeah. Yeah.

And and I was and I was studying at the University of Cape Town. I was doing I did environmental science and social anthropology.

Wow.

Well, it kind of gets me to my last question like the the the what is the the impact and the influence of Bernie on your life, but uh seems like you you were kind of already kind of mostly there by the time you even stepped foot in the desert.

No, there were there were elements I mean I mean through through the 16 years of doing what I did on Africa burn I have learned vast vast vast amounts and met the best humans in the world um and it's it's just deeply deeply solidified my understanding of so many things and certainly that they're fundamentals which I know now on a such a deep level which is that the open-source model is an abundance model it's if if you if you want to if you want to make change or if you want to do anything empower people that's what you do you create the platform you create the space that's the only thing you need to do and governments need to learn that is that you don't need to start programs that do this or that or whatever I mean you can but your job is not to create jobs your job is to create the space in which stuff can flower which stuff can grow you know that that if that for me is I always use the soil analogy. Your only job it's it's a permaculture principle as well. Your job is to create the soil in which s*** can grow and don't get too attached to the outcome. Um anything anyone can do anything and there is such strength in collaboration and creativity is collaboration. It's it's different elements coming in but an but an openness to that and that there's an optimal absolutely key is that there's an optimal amount of structure that doesn't crush something but that enables it. So, so I've had a 15 year 16 year experience in creating enabling environment and enabling in a good way. Enabling in creating fertile soil um

and yeah and and no and also the strength of fun and play and fun are such amazing amplif fires and they are so fundamentally important that that that time of irreverence that time of you know also the how how important ephemererality is is that it's important for it to be a short sharp shock of that experience

yeah

even whether even if you're in the desert for a month you know because a lot of people come out of the desert they're like why can't Africa burn be the whole year long and I'm like absolutely not no ways there's no f****** chance

yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, also you don't want to be like formulaic, you know, like we're talking about like like corporate stay formulaic, you know, it's just like it's like you buy it in a shelf in a 12-pack shrink wrapped, you know? I mean,

yeah.

Is that really what you want?

So, I mean, yeah. No, carry on. Yeah.

Oh, I was going to say like even uh with like the hardships and uh challenges, it's like you you you you still come back. Like why why is that? Yeah.

Oh, God. Because it's fantastic. stick. Yeah. I mean because the the org is is just a piece of the scaffolding that holds the whole thing up. You know, the community are so important. I mean I it it's it's it's when when when when I was in that extremely challenging scenario in 2023, it was very very distinct for me. That was the learning in that moment for me was was how I was sitting there and it may sound IC, but I was feeling brutalized by the organization. I like no matter what I said or did, there was nothing I could do to change their minds and they were not able to hear me. And then the community mobilized and they were like, you cannot not let money come and they didn't listen to them. And they listened to a tiny small handful of people who didn't want me there. And and so so that was what I was sitting there. I was listening to that. But then the tidal wave of love that came from the community to me, that's real. That was the real story, you know. I um it was just it was incredible. And and and that's cuz I've worked so closely with the creative community my whole Africa Burn life. Um and that's the real alchemical gold is that when you're toiling in the desert next to each other and you're making s*** happen and it's like that That's that's the the cauldron in which that's that's where where where we make the magic.

Oh yeah, definitely.

And that's why I keep going. I mean, there's no way that I'll never go, you know. I

I love it. I absolutely love it.

Yeah. I mean, that I always kind of say it's like, you know, community is our secret sauce, you know, like that's that's the thing that, you know, I think people go through such incredible hardships. And just just like why why do you keep going back? Why do you do this to yourself? It's like it's the community. It's you know it's like when they say it's like oh you're coming home. It's like coming home to what? Like an abusive family. It's like no.

Sometimes it can be

you know but they're fun you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Um hey so if anybody wants to reach out to you or get a hold of you like uh do you have uh How would you like people to contact you if you want them to contact you? Like an email or whatever.

Um, I've got a Burning Man email address which is Monique. She that's she ss um at burning.org. Um, if you're interested in the documentary, it's called the current working title is called From Ashes. Um, And that email address is from ashes207@gmail.com. Um, also on Instagram is from ashes from.ashes.affricburn.doccumentary. Um, yeah. And my my Instagram handle is also just Monique She. Um,

so for Instagram, you said it was like ashes.africmd documentary.

Yeah,

it's Instagram. Okay, I'm just making my my notes.

Currently, there's a backup buddy campaign, but I'm sure that'll be done by the time

Well, this is going to come out Yeah. in September 1st, but um

we might even have finished the film by then.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow. Well, Well, we'll have to keep in touch because if you do, I'll definitely put that in the the show notes.

Yeah.

Thank you.

All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful wonderful interview and uh I can't wait to watch the movie.

Yeah, me too. Thank you, Andy.

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