EP 31 Paradox Pollack

Episode 31 with Paradox Pollack is out now! Meet Paradox Pollock, an artist and performer who reflects on the experimental origins of Burning Man. Pollock describes his early involvement with Desert Site Works, a collective that staged deeply immersive, 48-hour rituals on the Nevada playa long before the event became a mainstream phenomenon. These performances, which explored the human life cycle from conception to death, served as the foundational creative blueprint for the large-scale operas and ritualized theater that defined the festival's artistic identity throughout the 1990s. The conversation traces Pollock’s journey from underground punk theater to Hollywood choreography, ultimately highlighting how the vast, empty landscape of the desert allowed for a radical transformation of the self through art. By contrasting the raw, anarchic spirit of the early years with the more regulated "walled cities" of the modern event, his story captures a historical shift from visceral community experimentation to a formalized industry.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Which Andy? That Andy. Today our guest is Paradox Pollock. Is that how you pronounce it? Pollock.

Pollock.

Paradox. Pollock.

Par. All right. Well, uh, let's start at the well almost the beginning. Uh, so how did you get involved with Burning Man? Like what was your first year like? Uh, what brought you to that?

Well, the first the first time that I experienced Burning Man was in 1991.

Oh, wow.

Uh, we were on the Playa um as part of Desert Sight Works.

Desert Sight Works was created by William Benzen.

And William Benzen was a crazy artist that um basically wanted to, you know, was was tuned into the fact that the man was existing.

Uhhuh.

And decided to do an art installation to develop his photographs. And he um reached out uh by I magazines and all kinds of things to get people to come and participate. And essentially uh a director of mine that I was working with, Lane, saw his um saw his ad and came on and I was one of three directors that created a 24-hour immersive No, it was a 48 hour immersive life cycle. story. We went from conception to death over 48 hours.

48 hours.

Continuous hours.

Continuous hours. Pepe ozone

was uh one of the people that uh participated. There were probably about 60 people that came out

and we created

you said there's 48 hours.

Oh, it it had no title. It was just part of Desert Sight Works.

Oh.

And uh Basically, uh, we created a witness chair because we realized that, you know, 48 hours some people would have to sleep. And so Pepe made a um a chair that was like if there was only one person awake through the whole thing that that would be still the performance was going on. So we had the witness chair and that person, you know, there was there were several times across the 48 hours where someone had to sit in the chair just alone. and stay and wait until other people woke up. But essentially it was um the concept was from conception to death. And so like conception was we made this massive bonfire and um we had everyone run and count to 300 and basically they they ran as far away from the fire as they could and then the fire was the egg and we were the sperm and we were running to basically, you know, conceive. And it was we we we spent probably 2 months in development of what the rituals would be and what we were going to, you know, what each stage was going to be. And uh they were like 4hour immersive events. And we did this at TGO hot ditch which was um um you know and the Bordello hot springs which were very close to where the man used to be. And so yeah, essentially every 4 hours we would you know for 4 hours straight we would do one type of performance and so you know the conception and then we did you know every stage of development and the ones that really stand out was birth was through TGO hot ditch and every person was was was born through the through the uh you know fallopian tubes of this heat uh you know this this you know hotring little uh ditch that was there and

huh so they go in like uh just naked or clothed and they come out covered in mud like

they would actually there would be one person that would kind of carry them through.

So each person was given a guide and then Eventually, there was just two people left and they each gave each other a ride down the TGO hot ditch and it was very slow. Again, everything was because it was so many hours, everything was very slow and deep and immersive and you know, so there was birth and then and then we had a thing where two parents cared for one person as the in the infant stage

and then we had um

you know uh There was a period of time during the the the ritual cycle where the men um the men separated from the women.

Mhm.

You know, and the men went to the uh to basically a junkyard and hammered on metal and played bull in the ring and uh shot guns while the women went to Bordello Hot Springs and put like, you know, mud on each other and cared for each other. And one of the highest moments really was when um the men and the women came back together

and the men were like covered in, you know, covered in dirt and hot and sweaty and and the women had all been like in this idyllic kind of beautiful space. And when and the the tension when the men and the women came back together was insane.

Wow.

Insane. And uh you know it it ended in a in a ritual of um oh yeah then there was marriage. Pepe ozan made the first lingum which was kind of the ground for the uh the uh operas was he made a um rebar and chicken wire and um plyam mud lingum.

So for listeners who like haven't like weren't didn't experience that or had never been a brain man. Like what what would you describe a lingum as?

The lingum was basically just a a tube of clay and metal that we put a a lot of fire into and uh once we lit it up it, you know, the flames went up the top and it was just a conception of his and it became kind of the the conception seed uh in his mind for what turned into the Bernie man operas which went from uh 1993 until uh 1993 until 2001 every year. It was what

yeah 2001 was was the last one and it basically took the Saturday place where the burn of the temple used to be. It basically uh the the temple burn replaced it but basically Saturday was a burning man um uh Burning Man, you know, full support and uh was, you know, was a part of the event.

Well, because they used to burn the man on Sunday, right? Like back then

and then then now now they the band burns on Saturday, but then nowadays on Sunday it's the temple that burns. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was the it was flipped. And so the the Saturday was the the Burning Man opera and then Sunday was the Burning of the Man. And so this was kind of the seed of that. It it was what like the his he was like, "Oh, I can do something with this." So um when we burnt the lingum or when we create when he created the lingum, we we had the archetypal man and the archetypal woman getting married, you know, and that was I was the archetypal man. There was a woman was the archetypal woman, you know, we did this intense ritual and we spent the night by the burning lingum,

you know, and so and it was right there on the Bello hot springs. And so there was the water of the you know the water of the springs and then the the burning lingum and you know so it was it was uh yeah we had our marriage tent. It was it was you know it was it was we went through you know uh every stage of life with you know um adolescence being pure imagination and we did this very deep journey into you know people's uh people's archetypes and you know it was it was it was a crazy beautiful uh experience. Leen Savadov was the director that was focused on the theatrical aspects. I was dealing with the more ritualized elements and this woman Angela Bosch was uh kind of a body mind centering person who was dealing with the somatic elements

and yeah the final ritual of death was, you know, there were people screaming like, "It's too real. It's too real." You know, like like, you know, just we were just piling people on each other, you know, like we basically made a a pile of the dead and everyone who had gone through the entire journey was just lying there like in a pile on each other.

And it was very, you know, very ritualized, very immersive, very powerful. And um That was my first experience on the playa. We did not burn

like since like you know the birth started with fire. I was like wow what are you going to do for death? Like

it was he it was there was a there was a text I can't remember what it was whether it was Bertold Breck or whether it was Anton Arto but there was a text that was read through the entire thing that was all about death and transformation and

um very you know uh It was a text that was written during uh the worst parts of World War II. And so there was something like very visceral and intense about it. And as it was being read, people were being piled in, you know, one by one into onto like almost into like a mass grave.

Wow. Wow. Okay. Another question I have because like in 1991, this 48 hour performance, I mean, uh I don't think there's quite that many people back there at that like I mean, so it's not was it

was we didn't didn't go to Birmingham like we didn't go to

in terms of like a performance like was there like an an audience or is like the audience like the participants like

the audience was the participants it was it was it was an exploration of the paradox of performance ritual

and um if I'm if I'm actually correct I think it was 92

because I had I had just arrived I had just arrived in San Francisco so it was 92.

Oh okay so 91 you went you're part of Desert Sight Works. So, Desert Sight Works was uh cuz who well who who who went to Black Rock Desert first? Cuz I know it's like um the Cacophony Society had their like their zone trip number four thing and I heard stories of people playing like a giant croquet with cars and and stuff like that. Uh and so the cacophony invited Larry to bring his man out as part of their zone trip, right? But um was this just like the just kind of independent groups that were kind of converging around the same area, same time.

Yeah, I think I think uh Ed Holmes, who was part of uh San Francisco Mime Troop, if you can get an interview with him,

he would be the person to know the histories. Um he was there and I think that there was just an understanding of a whisper. There was a whisper through San Francisco that was basically like this is the thing that is happening. And so when you know, Cacophony Society and uh on law were doing their thing. There was a whisper that brought Larry Harvey out there and then William Benzen caught the whisper and he did desert sight works.

You know, Pepe Ozan was, you know, it was like a whisper amongst the artists and people like heard the whisper and traveled what from San Francisco. I mean, it's like six hours. He traveled, you know, it was it was a it's a pretty insane thing. It's obviously before the internet. was really there. You know, it was it was you know, it was like when when visceral art and visceral living were still a part of the everyday uh you know, everyday life and the artists were pushing the edge of, you know, how to experience and San Francisco was just, you know, on the verge of so many things and it was just kind of a perfect timing kind of situation. You know, there were two deserts uh there two there were two Desert Sight Works experiences. The first was this one and then the second one was the one that I the first time that um I went to Burning Man, but I actually don't think I went to Burning Man. Most of the people who were uh a part of the second Desert Sight Works went to Burning Man, but I did not.

Um the second Desert Sight Works uh which was 90 must have been 93 and my my brain is tilting. I I may be it may have been 94 actually

cuz I think the first Burning Man opera was 95

which would make sense because this this sorry to be fluid with time but you know we're looking back

um but essentially Desert Sightworks number two Ape Theater was a group that was formed also in San Francisco a bunch of serious punk uh you know artists that had the DNA of circus in them decided to um you know at my you know because we had done Desert Sight Works before I invited this team in.

Um it was a man named Tim Picarel uh Felicity Perez um Greg I'm forgetting Greg's last name but Greg Greg is also a really good resource. Um

but essentially uh We took the Cababala and the tarot and we spent a number of months researching and developing characters to create a roleplaying interactive live performance on the playa.

Wow.

Uh with Desert Sight Works that was um and also again Pepe went there and I think he was really inspired by this you know these sets of experiences that we created. Um Um, and we did it as an interactive performance, the same type, the same number of people. It was maybe 60 the first year, 100 the next year. And um, we took the Cabala and we basically made site points on a map and we used the space between them as the tarot, the tarot cards. And we each rehearsed and studied and de developed interactive characters. that would basically stand in on the pathways between the 10 sephero of the of the cabala.

Yeah.

And um we did this two days in a row. Uh the basically people had station points like Felicity Perez who uh unfortunately passed maybe 12 years ago

um and was a a profound circus performer. Um someone who was able to go into like extreme psychic states. You know, she played the devil, you know, and she had like a uh you know, an oil an oil barrel, a set of bones that she had collected, cowbones that she had collected, and three uh you know, three uh bottles of whiskey.

Wow.

You know, and every person that came into her zone, she would just engage, collect,

mess with you. No. And you know and and then you know they every person was given purpose and reason and uh objectives and tasks and um you know the high priestess you sat and meditated or you were given specific frames of thought. Um you know at the waters of mem they had you know we you were immersed in the waters. So that was the hanged man. You know there was the hanged man and the waters of mem and you'd have to go through memory and you know at the And at the devil card, you know, it was it was like she would just the crulest, most sadistic journeys. And, you know, she'd have you go and get bones, collect bones out there and come back and then smash them and get drunk. And, you know, I mean, it was just really raw interactive performance that there was no no frames, no real rules, just improvisation with really highly uh talented but slightly unskilled um you know experiential you know creators and

it was madness.

So I mean the Black Rock Desert I mean it's like this just blank canvas. I mean you guys can do anything like out there. Um one question that just keeps coming to mind was um did any of the locals ever show up?

No. No. It was so Who would they think of all this?

Well, at the time, I mean, Gerlac Gerlac at the time was literally, I think, like an ex-mafia guy who had figured out how to leave the world, you know, Bruno, like this little this little motel out in the middle of nowhere. I think, you know, I'm sure he's long past and I won't get, you know, whacked for this, but I think like somehow he must have pissed off someone in in Reno,

you know, and just they were like, "Yeah, take a couple take take a couple $100,000, build your thing and never come back, you know. That's like, you know, so Bruno was there.

Uhhuh.

And and then it was just a, you know, empty

really. And who lived in Gerlac? I mean, like

I think Gerlac was like population 800 and something, you know what I mean? It was like literally

that big.

That Yeah, it was. But it was it was 800 people.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like that that you know, it was out in the middle of nowhere. And so Uh, this was before BLM gave us any permissions. This was just, you know, like

show up.

You just show up and and and there was a guy actually who live who lived on the hill of uh the Bordello Hot Springs, you know. I mean, we went up to his place and he had, you know, uh, taxiderermy uh creature, you know, animals he had killed and

Yeah. story about no because um you know um coyotes I don't know if you read his book but um there was some hermit that kind of like lived out somewhere that I remember they I don't know if it was him that they helped like they had a well and they had to like like reprime the well and so like they got he came and I he threw like dynamite or he did something you know but uh yeah there was somebody I remember some story of some herdy type guy the tax attorney that was just like don't

bother me I think I think that guy that guy had been out there for a really long time and he was just, you know, again, how do how do people get to the edge of nowhere

and then you show up?

Yeah. But but but we we showed up we showed up like out there, you know, we showed up like it it was it was hardly, you know, once once you I mean, you've been to Bernie Meny. Once you walk, you know, maybe, you know, once you walk like a hundred yards out, everything behind you becomes just a kind of you know, possibly a dust moat that you're mistaking for something, you know. So,

well, just imagine being like this like hermit up on a hill and you used to like every day, every night just look out. There's nothing there and all of a sudden there's some lights out there and there's some fire and then you're just like, hm, what's that?

Yeah, let me go check it out. And and and you know, and and right and around the bordello are, you know, new nymphs and you know, and saters and demons and all manner of archetypes showing up, you know. So, it was it there was definitely, you know, this sense of uh the strange entering the empty. And when when the empty is so empty, the strange can like really go to its limit, you know, and try to and that's that's what we experienced out there was, you know, we were we were urban punk like immersive theater innovators that basically as soon as you went out there the imagination stretched so far and everyone was so transformed almost I'd say you know 70% of the people that went out there became like real like legendary circus performers you know there's this woman Harvest King who has done burlesque in New York City for the last 30 years based on those experiences is legendary there. Um you know uh Felicity was on her path to becoming a legend until she unfortunately had a

um fatal circus uh accident.

Who was say what's her name? Harvest what?

Harvest King.

Oh

uh Harvest Moon is her is her uh burlesque name.

Oh

and she's she's actually you know pretty legendary in the New York last scene. Um, you know, so a lot of these people, a lot of these people kind of went to their limit inspired by this spark. Um, I took it and uh created Dream Circus which toured uh nationally and into Canada and then Dream C uh Mystic Family Circus which had over 300 performers um opened for the Cirus every time they came to San Francisco. You We we performed their opening parties. We did all we did performances for probably 12 years. Um I wrote and directed a lot of the pieces for that for that for that company. And it was that was dedicated to you know there was a man named Tequantu who uh initiated it but then kind of partnered with me and we um you know made a 300 person like the the point was really to do all colors all like it was really a multicultural uh interactive circus that kind of came out of

you know that is that's that founded in like 1999 or 19 Yeah, 1999.

This is Dream Circus.

Uh Dream Circus was 94.

Okay.

Uh we we formed right after after right after uh this uh Desert Sight Works event,

but Mystic Family Circus was maybe 9798. Again, I'm going to be fluid with time on this. I'm not going to I'm not going to have any clear numbers for you, but but essentially it was um you know, in that in the late 90s was Mystic Family Circus and

uh Mystic Family Circus inspired Lucent Doseier. Um I don't know if you're familiar with them out of Los Angeles. So, there was a certain legacy of circus that came out of that one moment.

Um, because it was, like I said, the strange goes to the to the to the vacuum, to the void,

you know, and it it birthed monsters and beautiful things. Like,

for instance, you know, like on the the death card, I spent six hours digging my own grave. And then um there was a shaman who was there uh who had found two dead ravens on the land.

Mhm.

And they put those ravens on my chest and then piled dirt on top of me but gave me enough air to breathe. And then they all went the entire troop went to Burning Man and left me with two people to oversee me. And I stayed there until they got back from Burning Man again. There was No rules.

12 hours later.

Wow.

And then they dug me up and put me in the Bordello Hot Springs. You know, it was like

ritual for ritual, experience for experience. It wasn't performative. It was for the group by the group to go as deep as we possibly could,

you know. And of course,

I'm no expert in tarot, but like isn't like I remember people the death card like, "Oh, Does it mean that the death it means like change or something?

Transformation.

Well, all things Yeah. All things have different I mean I got to have the experience.

Yeah.

You know, I got to have the direct experience of what that is. And yeah, it was it's um everything is a symbol. You know, tower is about transformation and rebirth. Even though it's a tower falling, death is about transformation. You know, the the the hanged man is about remembering. You know, but there there are so many layers to what that mythology is as the 10 sephro are the you know are the planets plus um the you know pl you know plus the ineffable at at one two and three. God being you know the the ultimate unifying of all things the male and female forces

and then the then you know the planets

and so you know uh There's there's a pathway between each of the planets between each of the two planets and that pathway the 22 um you know archetypes of the of the tarot are the journeys between them and so there's so many different ways to interpret it.

We had our you know youthful punk rock you know way of interpreting them and playing with them and then getting people to walk onto the field of our interaction and just go, you know, like have each one of the performers take someone on a journey,

you know, and so that was that that for me was kind of a really foundational thing because I grew up um I grew up performing theater and it was comedia and it was, you know, being able to be fluid in multiple types of characters. Comedia delarte, which was, you know,

the, you know, in the Italian um you know basically it was like Greece with the gods and the the Greek dramas and then it was you know in in Italy uh in in from Greece to Rome and then Rome was debaucherous and they would do all kinds of crazy rituals and then you know that that theater basically went you know Greek theater to Rome's uh spectacles into Italian comedia and that's where all of the archetypes from the gods slowly distilled into these kind of comedic characters. So I was playing with that and I was you know doing research on uh Gratovski Jersey Gratovski and his um crazy experiments with uh the what is ISA International School for Theater Anthropology where they brought performers from every culture to basically distill what is the essence of theater and performance.

So they had people from Bali, Italy, France all masters, you know, and I was like, this was my this was what was inspiring me as a kid. And so all of a sudden, I had this sandbox, you know,

to play with these, you know, really young punk kids who wanted to f******, you know, figure out the unknowable stuff, you know, and so,

um, so my first interaction with with at Burning Man was being in a grave while everyone went there.

Oh, that's hilarious. No, it's funny because it's like people always it's I always hear people talk about Brady Man. It's like ah it's a bunch of hippies or it's like like a rainbow gathering but it's like no no no it's more punk than than hippie. Definitely.

Oh, for sure. It's it's it's hippie with guns and and and you know and Mad Max. It's you know there's there's there it was such a fusion at that time because again the next night we went to Burning Man and and uh I did go that year because I remember there's a few photographs of this um Pepe did create a lingum.

Mhm.

You know, he had been inspired the previous year and so he made a lingum the next year on at Burning Man and uh it was maybe 30 30 ft high.

Okay.

And uh Uh the dream the what was to I'm wrong. I'm wrong. We did not we we did not go to Bernie man that year. I did not go. The following year was the first lingum of his and that that was 90. Time is fluid but you know but basically basically Dream Circus Dream Circus the company that I founded after this experience this desert site work experience

we went the following year and that was the first lingum at Burning Man and I remember we just did a a continuous performance around it.

There's some video some photos of that that still are preserved but it was really improvisational and really um based in I can't remember at this point but basically based in Dante's Inferno and uh I'm I know I'm riffing and I'm just going off but um So, uh,

the foundation of all of this, all of these experiences became Pepe's Opera.

And Pepe's Opera, I believe the first year that it was official was 95. We did something on the Playa at Bernie Man in '94. And, um, 95 was Empress Zo, I believe. the

yeah

trying to remember because like 96 was my first year and I remember I remember like passing by the opera during the day and then coming back later and it was all burned and like I kind of had missed it. That's a whole other long story. But uh was that Empress Zoe? I don't know. The things all kind of blend together after

Yeah. I mean again again I really wish that I had done a little bit of chronological. Let me let me break this down and do the memory. But I think um you know the the main the main thread that I'm carrying and I'll and I'll cut it and let you ask a question or

ruminate um was basically that Desert Sight Works. Those two years

Mhm.

of Desert Sight Works inspired Pepe to create the operas and he saw the potential potential of deep immersive performance and he created the lingum which was kind of the blueprint for his stages um you know his performative stages he created out of

uh rebar chicken wire and

yeah

lia clay

yeah I remember some of the characters that they'd made too not just the lingum the rebar the chicken wire there's like it was like it was like it was like a collie you know like like the mini arm like like oh it's incredible incredible art.

So Desert Sight Works was probably what like probably like 93 94 and then the first opera like 95 something like that.

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

So were you involved like from 95 to 2001 were Pepe's operas. Were you in collaborating with him involved like that that entire time?

Yes. And uh the first two of them I was the principal director of those operas in terms of performance.

Mhm.

Um Um, and then Christopher Fueling came on

uh as the director and I became the chorus leader or you know kind of chorus director.

Um, and Christopher like there was let's see let's see there was the Empress Empress Zoey which was essentially the journey to hell um of a you know there was an empress who travels down to hell and basically we created uh uh choruses for all of the seven deadly sins. So we had a chorus of wrath, a chorus of sloth, a chorus. And each of the choruses um essentially were people that we we created this structure um a system or you know a code that basically throughout the man we would bring people in and initiate them

into the cult of

either you know, fire, uh, you know, like sloth, um, you know, we brought people into the choruses.

So, by the end of I mean, and I think it's on my web I I have it on my page. Um,

the video of the stuff is it's it's epic and crazy, you know? I mean, it's like hundreds and hundreds of people that had been brought from the man just like, "Hey, I'm going to go to Bernie man." And then all of a sudden, like, you know, They're indoctrinated into this cult and then they become part of a chorus and then they perform, you know, in front of all of the man, you know, doing these, you know, crazy crazy uh experience. You know, uh, a lot of people were obviously on psychedelics and just out of their minds, but like there was enough containment of the performance and we got fire performers from Vancouver to to play with us and Yeah. was it was it was it was networking.

Yeah. There's also something about being out there like at a certain point it's like you don't really need any chemicals or any substances. It's it's psychedelic enough just the experience, you know, of everything.

But it's also again it's like it's strange plus emptiness, you know, and when and and the effects of psychedelics out there are just so much. There's no distraction. It's just you and the void, you know, and or you and the void plus a few other people who are also in me plus the void, you know, and so there is something that happens there that is

um it's a different veilance. It's a different level of uh engagement with the unconscious mind with the with with the direct experience of oneself and you know these these events and these um structures that uh Pepe and other architects created um you know was a vehicle for journeying on that path.

Mhm. So how did

how did it all end? I mean I mean you said like the operas went to 2001 like uh

why did it uh

yeah here and and here enter the politics? Um essentially you know the One of the things that was very crucial I felt about the transformation of Bernie man was interactive, immersive, ritualized performance

was a key element of what made it engaging uh for a theme for from theme camp to you know uh Burning Man approved performance. There was a there was something that was a through line, a thread, a weave, you know, where the goal was to create something that was for interaction. People would come from one, you know, you go from your camp and walk out and there was a theme camp that was interactive and performative and weird and strange and you'd go deep into there, you know, and essentially around 2009 2000 there was a a a radical shift where Crimson Rose essentially was like we're going to do the fire uh conclave and that's the only performance that will be at Burning Man. There are no performers. There is no audience. And it became a doctrine

that essentially negated Burning Man from funding engagement uh that was designed theme camps. could create whatever they wanted and anyone could create whatever they wanted. But this idea that there was a conceptual frame that was encouraged by the funding of Bernie man for immersive ritualized performance was cut entirely in in large case I believe because Crimson wanted to own performance

on the ply. And you know there there over the years you know I witnessed I I was I was in my early 20s when um when I started with Bernie man. You know I was pro I was 20 23 the first time I went out to the playa and most of these people were in their late 30s

and Pepe was my age when you know he was 50.

Yeah he was 51 when we did the first man. you know, so these were older, you know, really kind of already engaged artists who were looking for their, you know, this they were they were grasping for the ring, you know, in terms of in terms of what this meant for them and their career, whereas I was just an experimentter. I was just playing,

you know, I was these people were like, "Oh, this means something like this is my career. you know, and I think that that that middle ground for artists to realize that they could have a career

became very highly political. And and and when I when I say that I, you know, when I look at someone like John Law who, you know, he's not an artist, he's not a professional, you know, he would never want to be framed in that way, but but he was like, I want I have my purpose,

you know? Indonesian we say tujuan and it means purpose and it means you know kind of like all of it it it means both ancestral and where you're going and it's like he had his cacophony society his purpose was to kind of break systems down and and not let anything calcify or codify you know and so when it started to

that's when you know there was major breaches and these kind of moments where people were like, "Oh, this isn't just a career or profession. This is an industry, you know, like a business." You know, six, right, when it kind of transformed from more of the,

you know, looser gooser kind of freer kind of like anarchctic kind of thing to be like, "Oh, no, we need to incorporate." And, you know, it's like we need to have like like the get the permits and the rules. I mean, I'm sure they they, you know, they had a lot of that stuff before, but it became, you know, with it the LLC or whatever at that point because wasn't that the year like like John Law said like he was he was out and then

I was there in the room, you know, like that that's actually an interesting, you know, piece of history is,

you know, because because I was playing with the big boys, you know, and because I was there with Pepe and Like I was very close with Flash. I was very close with John Law. John Law and I drove up in 96 or 95 together uh from San Francisco to the man. Um and he and he left me at the plot, you know, he left me at the spot where we were going to be working with like just water going, "Someone's going to come and collect you, kid." You know, like

don't worry, you'll be fine. You know, but but it's it's like um that that breach was really I don't know how I got to be in that room but it was you know one of the things that I got to witness was actually when it happened that John confronted them and that there was a massive fight and um I think I was just traveling with John and um you know it was it was just really it was for me it was it was almost like a psychic trauma point because I could see how adults I I'd always you know I'd always questioned older people obviously my parents were divorced and trauma occurred in my life and I was like wait these aren't adults aren't what I think they are you know they're not the people in charge really you know

um but then to see my the people who were kind of creating the architecture of what I was inhabiting and and creating within to to have this massive breach right in front of me. It was like,

oh, huh, no one's really trustworthy. And it was it was bizarre. Um, like the details of it again is like marked by memory in my own retelling of the story numerous times, but this idea that they just um chose one person to uh basically like they called an attack dog on John at that moment and he just bered him bered him and it ended in violence and you know they yeah it was it was a physical fight between one guy and John Law and then they were he was out and then John Law was out

you know 96 you're talking about right

it again fluid time somewhere in there, you know, but when whenever that happened.

Um,

but yeah, you still uh were still involved for a couple years after that like or how?

Yeah. No, I I I still I just I didn't I tried I basically I went from being right there at the top

of decision making and like for whatever reason, maybe it was because I was young and bright and and had a weird name and was, you know, really, you know, getting closer with these people that they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can come in. Yeah, yeah, you can come in. Come on in. Yeah, yeah." You know, just like they were they were welcoming me under the layers. And then when I witnessed that, I think for myself, I was like, "Okay, I don't want to be near the top."

And I was like, I just want to stay with Pepe's operas and do the these immersive performances and, you know, create a legacy that way and and do my work of directing and, you know, creating.

So, when the operas ended in 20 one it's like is that was your participation ended at that point too?

Um I think I went yeah I stopped going in 2001 went in 2005 um with Oh no no no no no my my participation shifted from the Burning Man Opera to uh one people voice Grady Cousins. Um,

who I had met in 1999.

Uh, basically we did uh an Atlantis opera. There was a massive uh pyramid. We did initiations inside the pyramid. There were sunnakes and um moon bulls. Come here. Come here. Come here. Sun snakes and moon bulls, you know, were the was the archetype of choice for that particular thing and um we did initiation rights in the pyramid. Um and there was a a full uh orchestra that was doing music for these initiations and Eric Oberatoller um Christopher Fueling and Grady Cousins had all gone to um the Disney the school that Disney created in Los Angeles for uh performance. Um And so they had studied gamlon and uh there was some gamlon elements there but Grady did a version of the ketchack and when I was in Bali in '91 I had studied the catch. Sorry I'm going to let I'm going to let the dogs bark.

Okay.

Um I had I had done um I had done the the Balines experience Uh I had done a ritual immersion in Bali in 1991 where my teacher my teacher brought me into um

people are arriving. Hold on. Give me a moment.

Sure. Sure.

Um so uh yeah and this is kind of an interesting transition. So Eventually 90 1999 Grady Cousins uh Oberller and Fueler had all worked had all gone to school together at this Disney uh performance school.

Okay.

And uh Grady was just insane about the catch and I had done the catch uh the the monkey chant the Bologanese monkey chant in Bali

uh as part of like when I came here in '91 I studied. I wanted to do learn the dance of Hanuman, who's the monkey god, monkey, you know, son of the son of the god of wind and and uh a monkey general and the Ramayana. And I wanted to learn that dance. And so I went to this teacher and he was like, you can't. You have to learn the first dance that the children learn. It's called the bar. It's like a warrior dance. And it's, you know, very, very intense and physically rigorous. And as every day I did it, he was like, "Ah, you can't do this. You're a frog, you know, he would insult me and and challenge me and it was great. But then at the very end of my stay, he grabbed me, he took me to this big odolon, this ritual that was going on, and he grabbed the scruff of my neck and basically put me into the center of like a full-on ritualized monkey chant. And I was there for three hours.

Wow. and just right at the center of this thing that was going on, you know, and so when I heard it on the playa in 1999, Grady was doing it,

I was like, I know this, you know, and so like, you know, so I I I went right to the center of it and me and him had this very intense uh communion and then he created a group called One People Voice, which was essentially elements of the Gamlon and researching catch and researching the Balines monkey chant. And um I did that at Burning Man from 200 from 2001 until 2005.

Okay.

So every year, One People Voice, which eventually became Gamlon X, would participate in the marching band uh battles. that would happen at center camp.

Huh.

So there were basically there was March 4th from uh Portland and there was Gamlon X and there were a bunch of other groups that I can't remember. I apologize to them for

not recalling their history. Um but you know basically there was there were marching band uh competitions in the center in center camp from 200 I think it was 2000. This was something that um what's the bunny guy's name with the long beard?

Raspa.

Yeah, Raspa. Raspa was central to like this kind this whole thing, you know. And so, uh we had a full gamlon. We had, you know, and we were performing, you know, as part of the marching band competitions.

Wow.

So, that was Yeah. So, the trajectory was um Burning Man Operas till 2000 or 2001. I have to ver Right.

And then

uh cuz let's see

One People.

Yeah. Then One People Voice and then

X

um

Gamlon X and and I stopped going to Bernie man in 200 five I believe.

Ah

and didn't go back until 2015.

Ah would you think about going back again uh in some like future year?

Um honestly I'd more enjoy hosting a regional in Bali.

Oh.

Than I would trying to go to Bernie man again. I I I was really um

going from Bali must be incredibly expensive. I mean going from Hawaii is crazy enough as it is. But yeah.

Yeah. I mean it's less about the money and it's more about like I'm in a culture that's doing immersive ritual and performance all the time

and I'm not as interested in Um, I don't know. I think I think I've witnessed the quality of it change. Even when I went in 2015, I was like, "Okay, I don't really need to come back."

Yeah. Yeah.

And and and it was interesting because I was driven around by Tony and Jason Durelli and uh these were the guy these were the cats that like, you know, in my off time when I wasn't doing ritual performance, you know, as my Burning Man profession, um, you know, These were the guys that I was traveling with. Marlo Basset, um, uh, Jason Nurelli and and Tony. We were we were we were, you know, Playa Playa driving and having our fun. And, you know, they drove me around in 2015. They were like, "Look, it's pretty much the same." You know, they were like, "Look, it's just it's all about neighbors. It's all about the neighborhood. You know, it's all about people drinking beers together at the, you know, in their lawn chairs, you know, and and you know, it's he they were They were really I was like, "This is f****** this is different. f*** this. f*** this. f*** that." You know, cuz because there were there were the there were already the walled cities,

you know, of of the tech bros.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, that that you couldn't you couldn't get in.

Like Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Well, okay. Well, um before we get uh my final question of the impact,

uh just briefly, it's like uh what was your life like uh before Burning Man? Because you said you first went in like your early 20s. It's like uh where where did you grow up? Like what was your your life like before all that?

Yeah. Uh let's see. I ran away from home when I was 14. Grew up in Philadelphia. Um I was I grew up in Philadelphia to a middle class uh household, son of a psychologist and a and a housewife. Had an older brother. We ran away uh after their you know, madness and kurfuffle divorce and decided we were going to make our own way

together.

Um together.

Yeah.

And uh I almost died in a fire when I was 14. Um living in a abandoned house with a bunch of junkies. That was our that was our default.

Wow.

You know, so

um you know, but we were straight edge and it was a punk rock world and we were you know, after the fire. Uh we founded our own squat house and became low-end celebrities and uh in the punk rock world and then um got kind of adopted by a uh a mad man um who became a mentor of mine for seven years. Um and we did theater.

It was big mess theater and we did theater four shows a year, original works by the by the guy Greg Giovani and Philly and you know I lived an incredibly free artist life. I was totally free from all tethers and um formulated my own ideas and opinions and ethics and you know structure of what I wanted to go for and what I wanted to go for was theater and performance. And a troop came through in 19 90 uh to Philadelphia called Contraband from San Francisco They had a studio at Theater Artto, which was where Brian Goagan and um Pepe Ozan and William Benzen uh were all connected to. Theater Artto was a was really a a churning spot for um this whisper

that was going through San Francisco about Burning Man.

Um and so uh when I saw them, they performed in Philadelphia. Contraband was their name. Paris Shelton man who still to this day lives at uh theater artto um or project arto uh they came through Philly and just super inspired me. It it was the most powerful performance I had ever seen and I was driven to um to join them. And so I went to Bali that year.

Wow.

And then um came back to Philadelphia and was like I'm done here. Went to San Francisco, studied with contraband and started and formulated kind of this alternative arts world that was going on there. Um, Cellspace.

Uh, I was one of the founders of Cellspace.

Oh, really?

Um. Mhm. And that uh, you know, Cellspace was John Ute and a a kind of crew of people at the beginning. Chicken John was had a studio there. Um, Um, you know, there were there was there was really a renaissance of weird art and experimentation that was going on in San Francisco at that time. And so, you know, that was I was doing theater, I was doing dance, I was formulating my circus ideas and then did Desert Sight works and when upon the return of those, you know, initiated circuses that were basically ongoing performance um structures for me. Uh you know went all the way through my Burning Man experiences, founding the circuses, traveling around with the circuses and performing and you know doing a real commitment to community in my way community development, community building and performance creation. And then uh I kind of we with One People Voice, we toured to Bali with a 40 person troop uh to do a version of the Ramayana. Um and and upon returning I was kind of empty. I I I was like okay that was the completion of a cycle long long cycle and I didn't know where I was going and I got a call a random call from old friends that I had done a short film with who you know collaborators from you know in in San Francisco maybe in '94 95. I did that and and then they called me in 2005 and were like we are working in Hollywood, we want you to come and do a video audition. I did a I They flew me there. Um I did the video audition. I got an I Am Legend.

Oh, really?

Yeah. And I became one of the choreographers of the creatures

and one of the stunt performers. Uh you know, I am Legends its own kind of story, but basically like you know there were I think 60 to 100 like somewhere between 60 and 80 performers stunt performers and they shot one day. They had rented Washington Square Park, probably the most expensive

spot in, you know, to to rent

and they shot two shots of us and they sent everybody home. They were like, "You're not scary." And they shot plates

and and I am Legend was one of the first CGI focused uh performance capture kind of movies, you know, that were that where they called four six people back and then the rest were stunt people. But they called four performers out of that 60 to 80 and that was one of them.

And basically in that movie there's hundreds of me in the background because they just did performance capture, you know.

Wow. That's incredible.

Yeah. So, but that was my entrance into Hollywood and then I did Star Trek. I worked on the Aliens in Star Trek um and some of the cultural design there and then worked on Thor and got to direct Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddston in creating their characters. Really? And yeah. Yeah. Worked with them directly to help create them. And there's lots of stories there. Um but back to Burning Man, you know, it was basically 2005. I was like,

you know, I'm I'm done here. And uh it was only because my friend Scott Levoff was creating something of immersive theater that I felt was Honoring the ancient tradition, you know, ancient being, you know, 10 years earlier, but you know,

definitely ancient now. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, Scott Leb created a thing called Midway Bill or I can't remember the name of the actual project, but he got funding from Bernie man to do an immersive theater thing and he brought me in and that was kind of like that was the reason why I came back. I was like, I don't feel it anymore. I'm not seeing what Bernie man is anymore. um you know after 2005 and when I was there at 2 2015 to get back to the other thing we were talking about I just saw all of the you know walled you know walled theme camps and I was like

not my not my thing anymore.

Yeah. Well yeah that's interesting because that kind of gets us to the uh the final question of uh the impact or the influence of Burning Man on on your life.

Oh

because uh yeah I mean you said you already kind I started going into that. But yeah.

Yeah. I mean like literally uh strange plus the void, you know. I was already strange. I was already on my path to, you know, wanting to explore the edges of performance and ritual and magic and, you know, link them all. That was kind of what I had composed in myself from running away, you know, being, you know, my heart stopping in a fire, you know, and and then being, you know, I I almost died in a fire and that was kind of my rebirth. And that's when I took on Paradox. I was 14, a free person in a in a crazy prison world,

you know, and it's only proved itself more and more that we're in a prison world.

And so I wanted to create a path to freedom and liberation, but I wanted to do it through ritual and performance and you know, and and magic as I understood it, you know, and and so my community were all magicians, performance performers, and you know, and and ritualists that wanted to do the same, you know, and I found that vibration and that frequency. But I the, you know, to answer the question, when I was out on the play and doing this conception to death, ritual, 48 hour immersive

conception to death ritual. Something dropped in for me that was actually I I I found it. What I'd been searching for my whole life. Okay, I found it. Now I have to keep it, you know, and the the problem to solve, you know, the math problem is how do I do that? you know, and so strange plus the void, my mind reached the horizon on my possibilities and I spent the next, let's see, 92 to 2005, 13 years exploring it as deeply as I could until the medium shifted. You know, it was immersive theater and per, you know, uh, and circus was ultimately the medium that I worked in for 13 years. And and then, you know, once I was doing film, I still continued to do the monkey chain. I would go to festivals and the rest of the troop had already broken apart and I would just go and be the oneman ketchup guy, you know, where I would enter there would be like, you know, from 20 to 400 people, you know, to beloved the entirety of the festival. So like a thousand people.

Wow.

You know, where um you know, I would just it was just me at the center and I would get everyone to do the Balines catch,

you know, do do the Balines monkey chant and it's, you know, it was like that was my that was my side gig. Film was my work, you know, but film it's like, you know, I work on something for 3 months, I work on something for, you know, 6 months, 9 months, you know. Um the longest thing I ever worked on was uh a year and a half which was recent was 2019.

Mhm.

Not recent anymore. Um did Apple TV's C you know where I got to apply

basically it's it's a future just you know future world where everyone has already gone blind.

Yeah.

Jason Mimoa is the principal actor there.

Yeah.

And I got to I got to work with those people and have a chore a team of choreographers underneath me, you know, to um to basically make the blind world and the cultures of a blind world. And I helped every one of those actors to find their alternative senses and develop their characters and develop their movement and you know so that that that that TV show has my DNA all in it. So if you wanted to go like well how did

how did Birdie Man influence me? You know it's like watch season you know season one of C especially episode one two and where I got to like really be the man creating the world and

you know it's it's there. It's there.

But yeah, I mean I mean what did it do? It it it it gave me the equation of the horizon, you know, uh strange plus the void all the way to the horizon and back and saying like, okay, what can I do with my life and my destiny? And now um my life is dedicated to maintaining the thousand-year-old process of the yadna here in Bali. The yadna is, you know, the everyday rituals that, you know, when you see them going out to like they go out to the to the beach to do the maspas, which is just this massive ritual. All of Bali goes to the beach for like four hours. It's Bernie man for four hours. Really?

You know what I mean? It's like Yeah. And they bring all of their sacred most sacred items and they go to the ocean and they play the gamlon and they you know I mean like literally the entire beach is full of people for about 4 hours thousands you know if not tens of thousands of people just go from their villages to the ocean to the beach and then back and it's like Burning Man for 4 hours. It's insane. So there's a structure that supports that and that structure that supports that is the yadya and the yadya is the everyday ritual of you know making the banton you know you you make your chaang the the little offerings that you put out

and then you do the prayers with it and that's the everyday daily but then there's the community ones where everyone gathers and then there's the community of communities ones that where everyone comes and you know and it's just it's basically burning man in cycles you know this this but but something that was initiated a thousand years ago that continues to be maintained.

Mhm.

And so, you know, bringing my film acumen and my professional work to here to develop and build the film production community here in Bali, but you know, wider to Indonesia because Bali is still very, you know, rudimentary with film

besides Eat, Pray, Love, which came here whatever, you know, like

20 years ago,

you know what I mean? So, but but it still it still left an impression on the Balines imagination. Oh. home, you know, it's eat pray love, you know. So, so there's there's a certain kind of um and there's a further DNA that the the monkey chant was created by Walter Spieves because he was a filmmaker who saw an ancient ritual called the Syang and the Syang was there for people to basically face whenever there was a problem uh someone you know woman was having a problem in childbirth. Uh there was pestilence or a drought or you know they saw unseen forces where They would do this ritual and that became the ketchak because Walter Spies put a camera on it and told one artist to make a Ramayana story for it and that became the tourist attraction of the Ketchac. But really it was an ancient ritual and you know these kinds of things

you know in a way you know to wrap this up I guess in the final answer what does it did for me is there are codes that are being carried across gener ations and you're born into them and you if you're lucky you get to catch on to one or two of them in a life and see where they can go.

Yeah.

You know where what what part you can play to participate in moving that

that little crevice that thread that that that weave, you know, in the weird of of reality that you get to kind of carry through. And I've been lucky enough to carry through through circus. I've been lucky enough to carry through, you know, the Syang. I've been lucky enough to carry through film and the film industry. And I've been lucky enough to carry the the Yadna. And that's that's where I am now is, you know, seeing what I can do in Bali for skill development through the film industry stuff and and yeah, keeping it all.

Wonderful.

Wow. Well, thank you so much. This is this has been amazingly awesome interview. Um, so if anybody uh wants to reach you to or if you want people to reach you like uh

if I want people to re I don't know if I do I'd say come to Bali. Um that would that would be my my thing you know like on a on a straightup level just get here because um there's very few Americans here and a lot of Europeans a lot of Russians a lot of Indians so many Australians but but there's so few Yeah, exactly. It's their their Cancun, but there's so few Americans here. And I would say that, you know, really I would love to see more people from America. You know, if you're like, I'm fed up. I can't stand it. What's happening in America right now is so terrifying. Come to Bali.

That's how you can reach me.

And also, I think you said you had a web page where you had videos. So, what's uh what's that?

Uh paradoxpolic.com. Uh all my videos and links and testimonials from the A-list actors that I've worked on are there. Um, uh,

hey, I'll put that in the show notes. Yeah,

sure. Instagram is I I sees itself. Um, at, you know, I I sees itself. Uh, Facebook is Paradox Pollic. Um, yeah, and right now I'm I'm I'm in development in a lot of processes. So, if there's anybody who has anything to contribute in terms of funding for projects for the Bologanese to turn their trash into value. Um, I'm working very, you know, very adamantly and beautifully in concordance with these with communities to, uh, turn trash from a problem into a resource here.

Um, I'm, you know, I'm working locally to foster their art, learn everything that I can about the culture, and get the parts of it that are the best. to iterate around the world.

Wow, that's incredible. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview and uh I'm sure everyone's going to enjoy it.

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