EP 32 Kay Morrison

Episode 32 with Kay Morrison is out now! Meet Kay Morrison, a long-time Burning Man organizer and founding board member of the nonprofit Burning Man Project. The conversation traces Morrison's journey from her roots in non-violent direct action protests to her accidental discovery of the festival in 2000, illustrating how her background in activism shaped her appreciation for the event’s gift economy and communal values. They discuss the evolution of the culture, specifically the rise of regional networks and the role of theme camps like the Iron Monkeys, a blacksmithing collective that creates interactive fire art. Ultimately, the source highlights Burning Man as a "culture of permission" that fosters human connection, creative resistance, and joy beyond the physical boundaries of the desert. Note: the Flaming Lotus Girls hoax thing never actually happened on the playa this year, but it was a good laugh!

https://www.ironmonkeyarts.org/

https://ignitionnw.org/

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. a burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Is that a ghost? No, that's just Andy. Today our guest is Kay Morrison. Welcome.

Hi.

Hey. So, by the So, this is going to come out November 1st, a day after Halloween. Uh,

spooky.

You know, but it was funny cuz I was thinking I was like, "Oh, you're my first like uh board of directors member, but then I realized it's like, oh, no, actually my season premiere on August 15th is Danger Ranger, and he's a board member." So,

he sure is. Yeah.

Number two,

right?

So, what was your first year and like what got you go to Burning Man.

Why? Uh my first year was 2000. I feel it is an esteemed class of Burning Man people. The class of 2000. There are a whole bunch of us who are still around doing stuff. And uh I had no idea what Burning Man was. I had um so I'd been really involved in non non-violent direct action protests and in the fall of 99 was the WTO protest in Seattle. And so I'd been doing a lot of protesting in Seattle prior to that, but that was like a huge deal. Um, in Seattle, I was dating a guy who was one of the organizers, so I was definitely like involved

in that protest and I ended up getting arrested on the second day of uh the protest. Yeah. Did not plan to was not trying to get arrested. I was trying to leave downtown, got coralled up with about oh gosh, 150 other people and we all got put on Seattle Metro buses and taken to uh uh old military based and process and then I spent four days in jail.

Four days.

Four days. King County Jail. Yes. It was quite an adventure. I was in my early 20s.

So full of

It really is. It I mean it completely changed my life in so many ways. This being one of them because I met on the bus going to jail a guy named Jerry who uh I as soon as The day I got out of jail, I went to a meeting to like talk about what had happened to all the people who were in jail. And I saw him after that. And he invited me to a Christmas party and we became very good friends. And on a a hike up to Tiger Mountain one day, he said, "I went to this thing called Burning Man last year and you have to go with me. Promise me you'll go with me." And I was like, "Okay, sure." Uh I was I was a sort of a party kid at the time. I like to go to All Night Rave, uh Dance Fest, and I was like, "Sick, this sounds like a really cool thing in the middle of the desert. I haven't been to the desert. Let's go to a big party with a bunch of people. And I remember looking at the website in, you know, 2000 just being like,

"What in the actual f*** is happening here? Flying carpets? How flying carpets and like mimosas? I don't like it just didn't make any sense to me. I had no context for that kind of creativity or participation. I was very much like a consumer. culture person of like, you know, you pay the ticket for the party, you go to the party, you listen to the DJs.

So, what was your original conception? Like, you mean you think it was just want to kind of like a music festival or

Yeah. I thought it was going to be like a really big rave and I thought that sounded pretty fun because I was 23 and

got in a bunch of trouble. And

we do.

Uh, it was uh so it was great. So, I went with Jerry and a handful of other people. We rented an RV and uh drove from Seattle to Burning Man in the year 2000. So that was my first year.

So where did you camp? Just the two of you. You guys just had your own camp.

Uh there were about I think eight of us all together and we camped at 6:30 in Sex Drive. I remember it very well. It was the year of the body.

Sex drive.

Yep. So it was all the chakras.

The streets were chakras.

That would be ass.

Yeah. Something I don't remember. I just remember being very amused that we were at 6:30 and drive and we drove in and camped there. Like it was like open camping.

I remember God, what was it? I think it was my second year. It was 97 and we were like, we got to get there early. We got there on a Wednesday. Right.

Right.

And I think we parked at like something like what would be 7:00 and like 8 or something and there was literally nobody there. there was like maybe like a couple of people actually on the esplanade and then you know like as the days went by like every time we like you'd leave and you'd come back there would be you know be like more and more people and was one night you like we we went out and we went for a while and we came back cuz you know we turn off the generator and everything like

we we couldn't find our camp I mean we're literally like standing our camp and we was just like we had no idea was like all these other people just arrived

it's such an interesting mile marker to have that experience to have been there like a time So that was a thing I remember so clearly in 2000 because I wanted to go dance

uh going out on like I mean we must have gotten there on Tuesday or Wednesday but going out on Wednesday night or Thursday night and just looking for somewhere that was playing m anywhere that was playing music and I remember like finding one DJ, one sad DJ with like one person standing in front of like a like half shredded like popup tent and we were like this this isn't a this place is really big but where's the party at?

Was that 2000? Really?

Yeah. cuz they had like the city layout then, right? I mean, didn't they have like the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock?

Yep. But things didn't like Bianca Smutshack was out on the edges. That's where we first found like actual music. Uh but you know, it was my first year. I didn't I didn't understand the city layout. I didn't know where things were. I mean, maybe I read the survival guide

all over the place for music and you didn't really go

Yeah. I had no idea. I was I was the I was the first time burner that I warned people to not be.

Oh, well, we we all were there. I mean, my first bra in 2000 or no, 96, it was Yeah. like me and my brother and this other guy, we we drove up in it GTI and we had literally no idea like what this was about. And so it was just we you know, we' done plenty of camping,

you know, you do when you go camping like, you know, we brought a bunch of firewood, you know, we we dug a hole in the ground, we put the s*** in the ground. We evade a fire, you know, and then when you leave, when you're camping, what do you do?

You put the dirt over it, you know.

Uhhuh.

You bury your fire pit because that's the responsible thing to do, you know.

Uhhuh.

Yeah, that sounds I didn't build a fire pit, but there were many things because I'm a Northwest camper, so you know, very similar. I'm like, sure, you just, you know, you bring your like wool like sleeping bag and, you know, I don't know. that I'm I'm amazed I survived.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then I remember one year it was uh super hot. So then the next year like like we're not, you know, we're just bringing hot weather stuff and then it was super cold.

Uhhuh.

We're all like like huddling together like we were like in the middle of the day at noon it was like 40° or something.

Like crazy. We were like was like why is it so cold?

My god. I remember that first year and it rained in 2000. on Friday night, I think. And uh being like 23 and like a party kid, I was wearing like a minikrt and like 4 inch platforms and was way out at like somewhere near Bianca. Somewhere near like five or two or 10 and it was raining and I uh I didn't I was like it's the desert. It's going to be hot, right? Like I'm going to go out and look super cute and like dance all night. It's going to be so great. And it rained and the pio platforms on platforms that I already had like a little mini skirt, a little shirt, and I remember just being like, "This is awful."

How did you walk?

I didn't. And it was freezing. So, I'd like ply the the playa off of my platforms and try to get to the next fire pit. There were fire pits all along the esplanade. And so, I just like went from place to place to try to warm back up to get all the way back to 6:30 in Sex Drive from like 2 o'clock in the esplanade.

Wow.

And it was It was uh both a really amazing experience and also a really incredibly horrible experience. And it's uh it is it's one of the things that really makes me wonder why I went back. Like

isn't that kind of the common first year experience for most people though?

It almost killed me, but I'm definitely coming back next year and I'm going to build this, you know, like

Yeah. I you know, I didn't know so because I was so involved in the non-violent direct action protest movement and I was I was a street medic for protests at the time. So, I would go to protests and do street medic work. I uh I actually left Burning Man in 2000. Came back to Seattle and 5 days later flew to Frankfurt because I was going to do trainings in Prague for an IMF and World Bank protest uh there and ended up not being able to enter the country because because of my arrest in Seattle. I was on an international list.

I was going to wonder ask about that. Yeah.

So, yeah, banned in the Czech Republic for for a while. It was pretty cool. Um, but

that's you have a band of

No, but it's a really good it's a really good story to tell when you get into like have you been to jail, have you been kicked out of a country conversations that happen in my life with some regularity. It's a good story to tell.

Yeah.

Um, but that sort of took over my mental space. So, I didn't really have time to think about Burning Man because I was in Europe band in a country trying to get to a protest to meet a bunch of my friends to do this work. So, it wasn't until Well, I got back from that and about six months later did that I really start thinking about what Burning Man was like the in in the context of like anti-globalization and anti- capitalism work just like wait a minute no money wait a minute gift economy wait a minute a redistribution of what value means and that's when I was just like oh wait this is more than a party and I'm curious

this is before the 10 principles were kind of

it was

chiseled into stone like Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That was 2004 when Larry wrote the principles, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So certainly before that

because

so I came back and started organizing that's what I did like finally when I figured out Burning Man I was like I will organize all the things.

So then by the whole time you were like in in Europe and going through all these adventures it's like was Burning Man coming in the back of your head or was it just kind of completely out?

Totally gone. Completely gone. Uh Yeah, I came so I came back from that experience kind of broken and my friends my friend Jerry and the couple other friends that I went to Burning Man with in 2000 were like, "We found a theme camp." I was like, "What the hell is a theme camp?" They're like, "We found a theme camp. We're going to Burning Man with a theme camp. What the hell is a theme camp?" And they found the space virgins who are a Seattle camp. And uh I remember going to their first meeting having, you know, just come off of a long period of doing pretty intense organizing and the meeting was an absolute s*** show and I asked if what and I asked the folks running it if I could run the next meeting and I showed up to the next meeting with a stopwatch and a whip and was like we are having a meeting it is timed we are going to stay on agenda and then we can drink rolling rock and smoke weed on the porch but we're not drinking rolling rock and smoking weed on the porch until we figure out how the f*** we're getting in Burning Man this year and that's how I started organizing

an incentive Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Carrot. Carrot stick. Carrot stick.

Wow. I'm sure they were just like, "What's an agenda? Why why are you holding a piece of paper? And what's this pen you're holding?" You know,

who is this woman?

You're making a list with like little bullet points.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Exactly. What happened?

Space Virgins. Was that the first year for that camp or they had been going before then? Like

No, they started in 96 actually. Uh out of I want to say LA, but I'm not sure if that's right. Somewhere in California and then the or people who really organized it sort of moved to like, let me say that correctly. It had been organized out out of California and then the people who were organizing the camp were in Seattle like you know how the leadership changes sometimes in camp. So it moved to Seattle. So

well how many

I met the folks

you're talking

let's see when I went with them in 2021 it was probably

2001.

Oh sorry 2001. Thank you. Um, what is time, Andy? What is time?

Uh, there were probably 30 30 or 40 people.

That's a good size. That's nice size.

And then the following year it was quite a bit bigger. Um, and then years after that, we joined up with Flight to Mars and Alien Monkey Love Nest and um did Area 47, which was the first village I'd ever been a part of. So, it got a little crazy there for a while. Lots of people, big generators in the early 2000s. was it was ambitious.

Yeah. So, what was some of the other camps you part of? We were part of Flight to Mars.

Oh, I was not part of Flight to Mars. No, no, no, no. So, we were a village together. The Space Virgin Flight to Mars, Alien, Monkey, Loveven Ness, Campen Isle.

All formed a village at some point in time in 2003, 2004.

Oh, okay. What village was that?

Uh, area 47.

Oh, I remember.

Flight tomorrow had a fun house. The space ra had a big replica of the front of the parthonon.

Was Flight and Mars the one that made that rocket that kind of like flopped or was that a different thing? I think that was

No, I think that that was I think that was a different thing.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

I love that one. I can't remember what year that was, but it was like it was like one of this big spectacle like like all week long and people like J built this rocket and there's this. It's got to take off and there was like a couple thousand people around it like Yeah. Yeah. And then it like took off like and then it just went off and reached the edge of the ramp and just belly flopped and just exploded.

Yeah, that's

that's awesome.

Yeah.

Classic classic Burning Man.

So, how long before you started because you got into uh the regional stuff in the Seattle area, right?

Yeah. So, goodness gracious. So I think it was probably about 2005 2004 2005 when Seattle started doing some organizing um uh in terms of how to manage the money from the events that we were running. So we were running critical it was called critical massive at the time it's critical northwest now and then decompression which is the Seattle decompression event and they were becoming substantial events substantial enough that you needed to not have the money in a shoe box under the bed. So, uh, there needed to be some sort of business structure around that that allowed us to get insurance, like those kind of real world things.

You need insurance. I mean, there's all sorts of like legal

Yeah, you could you could skirt with the money under the bed for a little while if you're like on a buddy's land to do your event or whatever, your friend's warehouse. But

yeah,

when that when that uh when the infrastructure needs the capacity

like Yeah. No, we have the same thing here. It's like if you want to do I mean, it's it's pretty much the same thing. everywhere. I'm sure it was like if you want to keep like a small tight just kind of almost like friends group kind of thing like we're just camping it's under the radar you know it's like do whatever you want wherever you want you know but as soon as like yeah you involve like money

y like and then as soon as like somebody gets injured

yo

that's exactly right

liability like

that's when it's like the you know the alarm goes off and it's like time to wake up you know it's like I don't want to wake I have a button on a hat somewhere that someone gave me will chase maybe that says rules make fun more fun and I think that that's that's part of this that like we really needed to have some infrastructure some boundaries around doing crazy s***. Um so when Seattle started doing that organizing in 2004 2005 um we started a a nonprofit called Ignition Northwest which still exists to this day which um manages is the financial and logistic sides of the the events um here. And it was through like it was through running the space virgins and then helping start Ignition Northwest that I um got into being a Seattle regional contact which I did for seven or eight years.

So five or so like

Yeah. 2004 2005.

Were you the only regional contact there or Were you guys like a couple of people?

No, there there've been a succession of regional contacts through Seattle. Uh David Peterman, uh Dave Dia Martinez,

Matt Conlin, Jack Off.

Yep. Matt. Yep.

Yep. So, I think I I think it was Matt Conlin and I who were seasoned at the same time.

Oh, and Michael Holden.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember Jenny Kay moved up there for a while. Like,

she sure did.

Yeah. Was she like helping you organize? I'm sure She wasn't like a well she wasn't like an RC there but uh

no and that was more more recently she says but that was probably

I don't know seven or eight years ago maybe 10 years ago.

Yeah.

So all this stuff was before that.

Yeah. So you did that so you became RC and you did that for like about seven years. So why did you step down from that? What happened after that?

Uh well I it's through all of those questionable life decisions that uh I eventually was asked to join the Burning Man project board and it and I was also a meta regional contact. So I was like my litany of volunteer titles uh was just unnecessary like other people get get to do things and also I can only go to so many meetings before I lose my mind.

Yeah, it's a good it was a good time to step aside.

So when did you become a a meta region?

I was one of the first group of meta regionals which came out of

or 10 or something.

Yeah, I think that's about right. It came out of a a global leadership conference conversation about um where is the in between point between the regional context and the burning men organization like is there like an advocacy group or a Peter Durant and I call it a council of wisdom cows of like people who've just been around and through you know you're outstanding in your field. It's a movement. There are all sorts of pens that go along with this.

That's awesome.

Uh but there just needed to be another step between being an RC and like going to the organization. So I think you're right. I think it was 20 somewhere between 2009 and 2011 that the Meta Regional Committee started.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. So then when did they ask you to become a board member?

Couple years later. I think I've been on the Burning Man project board. since 2012. I'm one of the founding board members of the nonprofit. Like I certainly not a founder in the ways that like Michael Michael or Crimson or Harley or Marian are. Um but I'm I'm one of the first but people who was on the board for the nonprofit. That was 2012. I believe

you weren't there at Baker Beach in 1986.

I was nine.

Larry, this is how you burn a Man,

here's an agenda. This is a P. We're going to go through the step by step.

Well, you know, if we can only reccon history and go back,

but

yeah, cuz like one of my previous episodes had um Dan Miller, you know, who's uh roommate. And so he was telling me like all sorts of stories and like one of them like I'd never realized. He was like, you know, 1986 wasn't exactly the first year. And I was like, what do you mean? And he was like,

"Love this."

I think it was like 1976 they went to some rac like like you know Rau like the the pottery in Paluma Beach there was like a multi-day Rau like kind of camp out and so they like had these fires at the beach and so Larry and I think Dan I think they both were there but they didn't know each other at the time and then later they and so he was like oh that was like the first seed that Larry kind of saw like oh fire camping you know community you know which kind of like led along and I was just like, "Oh, wow."

Yeah. It's all sort of a a pop, skip, and a jump of questionable decisions that get us to to where we are.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, if they weren't so questionable, would would we be here right now? You know,

absolutely not.

Yeah.

I don't think normal is what any of us default to for too long.

Yeah. Uh Let's see. It's like you're also involved in other stuff like um

tell me about the whole like Iron Monkeys like how did that come about and what what exactly is Iron Monkeys for?

Yeah, so that's that's my crew, my current Burning Man crew. Um I've been with the Iron Monkeys since 2007. So did Space Virgins for quite a while. Started doing a lot of organizing. Sort of stepped out of Space Virgin leadership. Uh and when that happened I met the guy who's my partner, Tabasco Mills, who's a blacksmith. And he had just started a group of metal workers, uh, and blacksmiths to start doing art. And they did some sort of light things in 2006. I met Tabasco, the end of after Burning Man 2006, and uh, went with Iron Monkeys for the first time in 2007. And we've been building relatively largecale blacksmith uh, steel pieces ever since. Uh we pipe them with propane, light them on fire. Our whole jam is to build um gathering spaces. So we want to invite people to sit down, to talk to other people, to hang out for a little bit. So all of our things always have benches. They have interactive fire pieces. They're warm that some they offer shade sometimes so that you really have a have a have a moment of calm in a city that can be so go go go go go. Um it's it's just a quiet reprieve space. and we really we really love to do it. So, I've been doing that ever since. We realized that we're we're getting close to 20 years of doing that, which is absolutely f****** wild. I'm not old enough to have my second like career steam camp career be almost 20 years old. It's almost old enough to drink.

Yeah, I know.

Right.

Wow.

So, is this just stuff that you like place like around the Playa or you have like at your camp or both or?

Uh, yeah. No, we place it out in the playa. We've been fortunate enough to be honorarium artists a number of times. Many times. So, uh, we have a piece going out this year called Rerouting, which is a relatively large armalary, fiery armalary. And I know,

I mean, look up what Armalary is right now. It'll be faster for you to look it up than for me to describe it, but it's a map of um how the it's a map of how the Earth moves in relation to the sun.

So, it's a big globe. It's got an arrow that comes out the end. It's like you'll see them in like Harry Potter movies or like like on the desks of like important lawyers in Law and Order. Like it's a really iconic image.

No one knows what they're called though. So, we're bringing that this year along with some fire pits, some sun gardens, some benches, some big glowing gems from the piece we brought last year, which was called Glimmer and with a big 37 foot wide crown.

Did you look it up?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know exactly what it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Are you Are you going to have a second version for the flat earth? You know, I'll propose that I'm after this. I'm gonna go down to the shop and pack up that project to take it to Critical Northwest on Monday. I'll ask the monkeys if we can make a flattered version just for s**** and giggles.

Yeah, you'd always spent like months and like thousands of dollars and all these like hours, thousands of volunteers. Let's just quick quick quick just make just just chop chop pick one.

Oh my god. How do you do that? I'm just now imagining putting the whole thing in like one of those massive steel crushers like Yeah. Just really funny, you know? I mean, it' be like I don't know what would it be like a big pizza kind of thing or like a

It's a pizza pie.

Yeah. With like a like a mobile kind of like over it or something.

Oh my god. I'm here for this idea. We'll we'll ponder it. We'll get back to you next year. Maybe you'll see our pieces like armary flat earth edition.

Yeah. With more corners.

I don't know. Maybe the armillery will get some protesters.

Oh, maybe.

Yeah. Or maybe you guys the protesters. You have a history of protesting.

I do. Oh, this is hilarious. I'm really glad that this episode is coming out after Burning Man because

see people, this is how you know conspiracies are made.

Okay, I'm going to Well, if if you find a flattered protest at our art project this year, you know, the seeds were planted right here today

because Oh god, I was listening to um my sister podcast, Accuracy Third, you know, and uh

Sure.

I can't remember who it was, but there was a art project It's really spacing the name, but it was a the whole thing was like it was a it was supposed to be like a like a half-built amusement park kind of thing and they had these like big like walls around it. And so then I guess they had some sort of puzzle you can get like in the inside and they like fake like OSHA posters and things like that. But then like on the outside of the walls they had like all these signs saying post no bills post no bills and then all week long they would put up posters of different bills like like Bill Murray like Bill Cos the cat you know. Bless that reminds me of speaking of protest at Burning Man. That's I haven't thought about this story in a long time. My first year, so going hearkening back to 2000 when I was heavily involved in the protest world. I remember sitting in center camp writing uh trying to figure out what the actual hell was going on when uh this group of people came through and handed me um a piece of cloth like a maybe two foot wide piece of like fuzzy cloth and they were like, "You need a snee." And they handed me this piece of cloth and I was like, "I need a snee." Okay.

Okay.

Huh. Right.

There you go. I didn't think

Right. Thank you. My nose is running. And I didn't think about it very much. And then five or six minutes later, a whole group of protesters came in. They were the like they were the Lorax. We are the Lorax. We We speak for the trees. Like you don't need that snee. That snee is coming from the forest and it was like an environmental protest based on the um Dr. Seuss story

of the Lorax and I was sitting there in this like early 20s like existential crisis of what I was doing with my life at Burning Man in the middle of the desert having gotten there because I had gone to a protest and wrapped up in this like take this kneede the snee will do everything for you it's everything you need all you need in your life is a snee and then the Lorax is coming the port of the Lorax like no you have to find your own happiness. You can't get happiness through consumerism. And it just exploded my brain. I was like I think I'm in the right place or I'm in the very wrong place. I can't tell. I haven't thought about that story in so long. But like protest like creative f****** protest at Burning Man is a really it's a really cool thing. Like multiple layers of of social commentary.

Oh yeah. Well, I'm sure the people in the protest probably like why is she taking this Seriously,

why is she crying?

Just having fun. We're like, I'm sorry.

I get it. Oh my god, I get it. It's so complicated.

It's like I'm questioning everything about my life. It's like I just fuzzy piece of paper, you know?

Exactly. That s*** happens out there, you know. It's like little things can become these massive moments out there. That was one of them.

Well, no, I just finished um read ing, you know, caveat magic, one of magesters books. Um, God, I don't know, he's going to hate me. Totally flood the name, but the one about like the magical experiences and like, you know, like I'm doing magical experiences. I mean, that totally sounds like that, you know, like uh

what would seem with like a circumstance or whatever, you know, it's like someone just like hands you this thing and then, you know, this protest comes along and you're just like this is actually super pertinent to me like right now. Like it's like, yeah, I'm just having fun. But, you know, uh I don't know. It's it's like you can't really engineer those type of experiences. It's like no one's going to be following you around and be just like here's this woman K Morrison and here's her background. Here's her file. It's mission impossible if you choose to you know it's like you you you make this whole parade and she's going to be there at this time and you know

Yeah.

It's just kind

you can't I mean I guess you could engineer that kind of thing but but there's something about like there's something about the cultures of possibility and cultures of permission. And I think Burning Man is one of these cultures of permission that allow some of the hard walls between where I'm living in my head and my experience to get fuzzy with where other people are living in their head. And that living out loud that like like being in center camp, there are no walls. Like if I had been in

a university or if I had been in a farmers market or somewhere else where there was more constricted space, it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have impacted me.

But because I had such my my my vision was so long. My experience was so broad because I could be and see a part of all of what was going on around me. Those those walls of of individual experience or or um encapsulated experiences go away and and there's more opportunity to be wowed or confused or mad or or brought in or upset or hurt or like all of those things increase in a context like Burning Man where

Yeah.

where those walls of of staying individualized are gone.

Well, it's kind of I think for many people kind of painful for those walls to dissolve too, right? I mean I guess part of your identity even is kind of part of that and I don't know then it kind of brings up whole issues of just kind of like like even like consent and stuff you know it's just like oh you're going to break down my wall.

Yeah.

And it's like Yeah. I mean I mean it it it's like the people in the parade are not like intending you you know to to you know break down your walls you know but it's like but in effect it's just like through their performance or interactive art you know, it just it just gonna happen.

Art's dangerous. You know, art is dangerous. Uh and and you never know how it's going to be that way to people. Art art is dangerous. There's a sign outside of the I work at a industrial and fine arts complex and we have signs that I'll actually put out tonight for our open studios that say art is dangerous. Art saves lives. Art will challenge you. Art will make you cry. And you don't know when those things like art an art's purpose is not to The art art's purpose is to do something to you or to do something to the creator. It's about telling stories. It's about bringing people together. It's about making you mad. It's about learning a new skill or working together. So those folks art of the take a snee. We are the Lorax. We speak for the trees. Like it wasn't their job to to have it affect me in a way. It was their job to do what they wanted to do to follow their curiosity. And what happened from that is that beautiful ripple effect of of again being permissive uh being participatory, having um having creativity, unbounded creativity, like the ripple effects of those things have a tremendous impact. Be it in Black Rock City or in like guerilla art movements or in um protest movements or in like a concert in a park that you didn't know you were going to come upon. Like all of those things impact us and the people who create it don't know how that will happen.

Yeah. Yeah. It just made me think of a funny like just like oh for someone's performance art to go around the ply with like a little like sticker says my name is like my name's like my name's Art okay like why is everyone's calling me dangerous like I change lives like what the hell you know it's just like I just come here to have a good time

that would be a really fun piece maybe art will show up at the protest the flat earth protest

you're protesting art you're protesting me what the hell

what did I ever do to you Uh so you got to hate

that maybe because like the Iron Monkeys uh what relation do you guys have with the the Flaming Lotus girls kind of uh niches, right? I mean well they're like they do a lot of metal but it's like mostly flame arts, right?

Uh it's so it's so funny. So we have um we have a control panel at our pieces which control it's like the main manifold for all of our our flame effects.

Uhhuh.

And for many many years it was a big trunk and you'd lift up the lid of the trunk and on the top of the lid of the trunk we keep tallies of things and one of the tallies is um asked if you were the asked if you were the flaming lotus girls because people do it all the time. Were you guys the flaming lotus girls? Just like it's gone on for 15 16 as long as we've been around because

when you say no are they just like a

well Oh,

we get asked it so much that we no is just too boring of an answer anymore. So, but we'll make up stories. We have a we have a fake feud with the uh Flaming Lotus girls.

Like our people will go and tag all their s*** in camp with our stickers. Like we'll put stickers on all their things and then they'll come into our camp and sticker all of our stuff um flaming lotus girl stuff. Sometimes we'll dress up in um jumpsuits and hard hats, which is how they show up to their projects. So, we have a very light feud going on, but um we actually we we have no direct relation to them, but we we are very supportive. We will loan each other propane pieces. We actually staffed their project um a couple years ago because the fire concrete council wanted to do um a photo shoot out there and their team didn't want to work. But Tabasco, who's my partner, who runs the Iron Monkeys, is also on the Fire Conclave Council. So, he negotiated with the Flaming Lotus Girls at the monkeys would work would safety their project. So, we really had a very hilarious time at their project where people came up to us and said, "Are you guys the Flaming Lotus Girls?" And we got to say yes.

For one day only. Okay.

For one day only.

We have tons of respect for them. We They do They're very different than we are. They are They're um they're more metal workers. We're more blacksmiths. Uh they do a lot more complicated flame work.

What's the difference

than we do?

Um worker and blacksmith. Yeah.

So, Blacksmiths bend and move steel. So, we heat metal and we bend it, move it, twist it, stretch it, compact it, punch holes in it. Um, metal working is is more cutting and welding. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but like we do metal working, we weld, we cut steel. Um, but what we really like to do is more of the detail work of of hammers and um really doing sculpting sculpting of metal opposed to cutting. like performing like Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

And they also take on much more many more volunteers than we do. They have a much bigger shop than we do. So they have a really great culture of people being able to come in for four hours and volunteer or for a season and volunteer and we unfortunately can't do that because our shop is so small. We have a really tight crew.

So Iron Monkeys is it like I mean okay you're a theme camp you started in 2006 2007 right? But uh I mean your own like organization like or nonprofit or or

uh yeah, we have an LLC.

LLC. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, it's like no, we're just a small collection of friends in a couple of garages, you know? I'm like, uh I I don't know how you could do that. It must be a big garage you'd have, right? I mean,

well, most of our s*** is stored in Tobasco shop down at Equipment Studios, which is a fairly large space. Uh it's also where we work out, and it's where I'll be later tonight. Uh, so it's stored there and lots of lots of pallet racking.

You guys do like does Iron Monkeys do like things like outside of Burning Man? I mean, or or like you said, it's like an LLC. I mean, uh,

not so much. The Mon the Iron Monkeys really focus on doing large scale sculptural fire art for events.

Tabasco himself is a full-time blacksmith, so he does lots of other things. And Iron Monkeys will help him if doing like a big gate or a big railing or a big armature for a huge art project somewhere, we we'll come in and help him, but we sort of the Iron Monkeys proper stick to doing big stupid fiery art.

Oh, so you don't have like like Nike or some corporation come up to you be like, "Oh, we really want you to build something for us like a flaming basketball or something?"

Not yet.

That Nike, they're open for

you. Send us an email on our website.

Yeah. Wow. And does Iron Monkeys bring anything to Critical Massive or or do you guys like um

We are this year. We uh we went for many many years to critical uh and then took quite a few years off. We haven't been back for about 10 years after going for a long time. Uh but we are bringing we're bringing our piece parts of the piece that we're taking to Burning Man we're bringing up uh on Monday. So the Armalary itself, a bench, some fire pits, some like propane fire pits, uh we'll bring up on Monday and run throughout the week.

And how big is Iron Monkeys? Like like the camp like on the play we have

um I mean you came by last year I remember had a good setup there. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's nice. So they're on play. The actual working iron monkeys are about generally about 23 24.

Okay.

And then we have a bat camp called the scrapyard which are a bunch of our friends who do who work fast or artery or our regional contacts. So Our whole camp is probably about 50 55 people, but half of them are working iron monkeys. The rest are are friends and random people I meet in bars and invite to cample.

Couple meta regionals here, too.

Couple meta regionals. Yep, that's right.

Yeah,

the former regionals. Some former meta regionals.

Yeah. Oh, speaking of former meta regionals, regionals. Um, are you going to make it to the alumni reunion?

Oh, I guess I am an alumni.

Yeah. Yeah. No, because so last year my first year back, right? And I was like, well, I'm an alumni, you know. And I was like, I'd love to, you know, meet up with some of my old, you know, oldtimey friends, you know, and I was like, let's do a we're alumni. Let's have a who's where why don't we do an alumni reunion, you know? So, so last year, I think uh was just me. God, who showed up? It was just like three of us.

Oh my god, that's my favorite kind of meeting.

Well, also the the the slot that they gave me was like right at like as the the billion bunny march. was like bringing taking off. It was like I was like uh you know like how is anyone even going to find this you know? So this year it's actually Wednesday. Well by the time this comes out it's going to all be over but uh it's like it's 4 to 6 at center camp uh pavilion. So it's right before the cacophony like cocktail hour. I think that starts at 6.

All right.

Leads into that. So So 4 to six.

Maybe I could maybe I could do both because I think the regional network mixer is Wednesday right around that time of the well

Wednesday could do maybe I could do both

yeah

started the network mixer like show up with my met regional hat on come on over with my RC alumni hat on to alumni

yeah it's funny because I actually made these t-shirts last year I don't have any around but um this year I might just make the stickers but uh it's basically it's a it's a Bernie man with like a little like cap like and and diploma and then it just says graduated.

Oh, blessed. I love that.

Yeah. So, I think I'll have I'm gonna have like a banner that, you know, that has that. So, be like, "Oh, yeah, that's where it is." You know, but I'm going to give out some some stickers. But, uh,

no, it's funny concept of like graduating Burning Man because I remember like I I put I made that little logo thing and I put it up online. I remember like Marian was just like she started getting mad like graduated and I was like No, it's like I know some people think it's like, oh, that's a bad thing. You know, just like I'm leaving Bernie man behind. I'm never going there ever again. I'm like, no, no, no. It's like another way that the way I interpreted it is that it's like you, you know, you go to Bernie man for a number of years and like life intrudes and you, you know, you move on. It's like and so then

you take the lessons that you've learned and you bring it out into the outside world. It's like you've graduated, you have your diploma and now you're going to, you know, spread it.

Yeah. Absolutely. I think it is a really like putting the things we learn through burn culture out into the world is one of the great one of the great tricks of Burning Man culture is that it doesn't stay inside the event. It doesn't stay inside your theme camp. It doesn't stay inside your little group of people. Like these things these things trickle out into how we live our lives. And that's where I really get fascinated with like that ripple effect of you know we're talking about the ripple effect of arts impact on people like the ripple effect of of burn culture out to the world is super fascinating to me.

Oh yeah. Well, also you got to think about it, you know, it's the Bure of Land Management has capped, you know, a certain size to Burning Man. I mean, we've kind of burn this the the population's kind of decreased from the peak a couple of years ago, you know, but

there are only so many people that can go to Black Rock City, right? I mean, and and like we're talking about like I I skipped all those years of when it was sold out, so I'm just like, what's the big deal, you know? anyone can get a ticket and just go, you know, but um

yeah, I mean like you can't just have every single person who goes to Burning Man just continually keep going year after year after year, you know? It's like you still have to have like fresh blood come in. So there has to be kind of this churn of, you know, people coming and some people going.

Yeah.

You know, and so

in a sense, well, it usually kind of need like like almost like a graduation kind of thing, you know, and it's because like after a while. I mean, it's kind of like unless you're like volunteering or or working or, you know, making this like your life's project. It's like I mean, like what are you doing?

Yeah, absolutely. Like just the numbers on that have to have to prove true. Everyone can't keep going to Black Rockck City forever. It's not going to work. I think it's really interesting um the continual growth of the regional network and regional events. Um like Critical Northwest sold out in 30 minutes this year. I think Soak sold out in about that same time.

Oh,

um the regional events are really they're a real thing and a lot of the folks I'm actually sort of excited to be a critical this coming week because there are folks I haven't seen in Black Rockck Desert for quite a while because they had kids, they don't want to drive that far. They need to stay closer to home. They just don't like the dust. Like whatever the reasons are for not going back to BRC, but they're still engaged in burning culture. So, I think that that is super great. Like there's a whole world of like smells like burning man events. rhymes with Burning Man events that aren't official events, but are certainly inspired by a lot of the culture and the principles, which is cool. Then there's like all of the maker spaces and art centers and community gathering spaces and nonprofits that have all been started to sort of perpetuate a a side a flavor of Burning Man culture in a way that that strikes at someone's little heart chords that that are also happening. Um, I think it's more radically inclusive than the event is. Like the event is like radically inclusive for 80,000 people if you can afford it, which is a great catalyst because it breaks you out of these boxes of like normal society and allows you the ability to think bigger and to do more and to have more like onus on how you move through the world. Um, but the radical inclusive part comes outside the gate of Black Rock City in my opinion.

Well, also internationally, I mean just I mean just

for real

logistically and well look at now politically.

Yeah.

You know, like I mean just logistically of like getting from one side of the planet to the other and just the expense of that and now like going through immigration.

Yep.

Yeah.

I mean I this is I mean like we keep saying this is going to come out after Burning Man but uh this year in 2025 but I just heard of so many Canadians who are just not going to be showing up this year.

Yeah.

You know so

yeah I don't think we have at the moment we we normally have one two three four five or six Canadians in our camp but at the moment. None of them are coming

really.

Mhm.

Oh wow. Well, again, it's like spreading the seeds, you know, like the the dandelion, you know, spreading through, you know, it's like a where it can take root in other places and, you know,

I would love to like go to like Africa Burn or Nowhere.

Have you been to any of any How many other regionals have you been to?

Uh, I have only been to a few. I went to Burn in the Forest in up in Vancouver. uh Canada a number of years ago. A number of years ago, 10, 11, 12 years ago, which was really lovely. I went to a Christmas tree burn in Utah, which was fun. And then uh I went to nowhere 10 years ago in Spain.

Yeah, I'd love to make I don't know. I I don't think I've actually painted to any other regional burn than here in Hawaii. Many many years ago They're fun. I really love regional burns.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I have a project that I'm going to try out on the playa this year because, you know, this show is it's like a long form, you know, it's like hour hour and 15 minute, you know, at the interview which is like one person, but you know, about like the impact of like Bernie man on people's lives, you know, but and so I'm trying to do this thing uh going call it shadow shorts where Oh, cool. like five minutes on the clock. And so I'm call it the shadow short challenge. I'm just like, "Okay, in five minutes, tell me Bernie man's impact on your life." Go. You know,

so I'm hoping to like record like kind of like um like story core.

Uhhuh. Sure.

Yeah. And so I just want to get just random burners. Like the only caveat I have is that like this can't be your first Burning Man. You know, you have to Burning Man has to have some impact on you other than just like I just came through the gate. This is

the best thing ever.

Yeah. I don't know.

Burning Man's so cool. stories. But then I was thinking it's like, well, maybe I could go to some like regional events with that, too.

Like that would kind of be a good excuse for me to get out of the house, you know?

That's a great idea. That That's a really good idea.

Yeah.

Yeah. Pop into some other regionals, hear what how because that Oh, I I also went to Flip Side

in Austin and that one really was the one that impacted me the most, I think, partially because Flip Side's been going on for so long.

Um, and the the people of Flip Side So many of them they are they are flip-iders. They are they are I don't remember the conjugation of how pyropyonians I don't know someone from Austin can correct me. Um but folks there are like why would I go to why would I go to Nevada? Like that just seems stupid. This is my community. I've been coming here for 25 years. These are where 15 years at that point in time. Like these are where all my friends are. This is this is my community.

Yeah.

This is my burn. Like why would I why would I go anywhere else? I don't understand. And that really got me like drinking Lonear with big like boots on like very Texan and very burner which was really different from what I'd seen in the Northwest very different from what I'd seen in Black Rock City. Like it tastes like Texas at Flip Side and and it was a really cool interpretation.

It really it really changed my mind of not changed my mind, it opened my mind to um how deeply personal and cultural these burning experiences are in different places and how they take on the flavor of the cultures that they're that they are a part of. And it was great. Flip Sid's dope. Flip Sid's really really fun.

Yeah.

Quite dangerous.

Well, this just reminds me of um again my sister podcast accuracy third uh

somebody went to I think it was like a New York like regional burn and they they were like recording stories of different people and I found it so So fascinating because like there were some people that you know the like hardcore burners been doing it for years never once went to Black Rock City.

Yep.

And I was like really cuz I mean I always was of this impression. I was like no no no you go to Black Rockck City first and then you you become a burner. You're baptized in in play and then you go to the outside. I was like there's a whole universe of people out there that have no experience of the playa at all. And I'm like I really need to get some people like some of those people like I I tried to reach out, you know, but I haven't heard anything back. But I would Yeah, I would love because, you know, the Bernie man influence on people. It's like, yeah, you don't actually have to be in the Black Rock Desert.

You do not.

But I'm just looking like how many people are there out there like that, you know? And look at how many countries,

right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Lots. And I love that. Again, that's that like radical inclusion beyond the trash fence of like it's arguably like it really is a culture. Burning culture is a culture and it doesn't which means that it's not necessarily defined to one geographic space or one definition. It is it is a

yeah

there's a throughine of what it means to be part of this culture.

But it's funny because like we're talking about like the 10 principles were only kind of codified in 2004. And so like all those years leading up to it like that was just kind of like it's like the water the fish swims in, you know? It's just kind of like the the background was just like oh no spectators, you know, beans participating.

No money. Yeah.

Like And so everyone was just kind of like, "Oh, when you go to BlackRex City, that's just what it's like, you know." And then it's like, and then Larry's like, "Okay, no, we need to codify this for the regionals to, you know, and then now that kind of goes out into the world." And so all these people who've never been to the PL, it's like, "Oh, no, we have this this this blueprint of these these these 10 rules or 10 principles, you know, but yeah, it's just kind of interesting for me from the perspective of like coming the other way. I'm just like, oh yeah, you can have that experience and like never set foot on the pl I uh I'm just I don't know. I'm just I'm really I really want to talk to people.

We have a guy in our camp, Pinky, who is one of the leads for uh DPW both at SOAK and at Critical Northwest, like a lead

for these things. Like he's been going for a long time to both Critical and um SO. And he went to the Black Rock Desert for his first time two years ago. And so we gave him a lot of s*** cuz he'd be like, "Oh, you know, like do you have any like Virgin's in your camp. We're like, "Yeah, Pinky is like look at Pinky." It's his first year in Black Rock City, but he's been doing the regionals for 10 years. He's like a he's a lead. He runs DPW for like like main lead for these events, but so he's a he's a hardcore burner. He's just never been here. And so it was really cool to watch him do Black Rock City.

Yeah.

Because he was so so skilled. That was also that was the year it rained. His first year was the year it rained.

So it was really cool to watch him

to be like

whatever. fun. We'll sit in camp and tell stories.

Wow.

It was really cool.

It is like the complete opposite of my first experience at Brit. Get there. I don't know what the f*** I'm doing, you know? Like, what is this crazy place?

Yeah.

Was a bunch of like retired people in RVs and like biker gangs, you know, and like, yeah, build a fire, bury it. Yeah. Who cares, you know?

Yeah. I remember million ways to burn.

Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. All right. Well, let's move on to our second question. Um, your background. So, where have you always lived in Seattle? Like where where did you grow up?

Uh, I grew up in Vancouver, Washington. So, just north of Portland and moved to Seattle in 1995 to go to college and I've been here ever since.

Oh, wow. Do you ever uh travel around or like study abroad? Well, I mean, other than protest, you know, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a pretty avid traveler. I actually So, I moved to Seattle to go to college, but I dropped out the beginning of my junior year to protest and then go to Burning Man and then I didn't go back to college uh really until the pandemic. I decided to try to finish my bachelors during the pandemic. Um, and I'm very close, but not quite there yet. But I actually last year I spent three months in Granada, Spain doing a study abroad, which was really incredibly lovely. Uh, but I'm also an avid traveler. Been all over the world. I love to go out and see things. I travel for Burning Man thing sometimes, but also just because the world is a magical and beautiful place.

Yeah. So, how much of the of your life does Burning Man take up between like, you know, being a the board member and an Iron Monkeys and everything else you're doing?

Yeah. A significant amount. Um, less than it used to actually, but it's still it's still the main thing that I spend my volunt time on be it building art or going to meetings or

hanging out and doing podcasts with friends or

but it's all volunteer. It's like nothing's a paid position. You're not really well board member. It's not really staff right.

No, no, certainly not staff. Uh and none of it's paid.

I used to do there was a time when the GLC had I would do little contracts like tiny little contracts to do like content development for things but That was it.

Tesla. Yeah.

Yeah. I uh I actually my buddy Peter Dan and I often talk about how much can you afford to pay to volunteer, which is a real thing.

Yeah.

So, I try to balance that. And I I absolutely love it. It's a you know, it's a huge honor to be on the Ringman Project board. It's um great to get to build art. I was never I would never have considered myself an artist. I was the organizer who tried to organize the artists. So, it's really great to artist in my own sense now, which is cool.

That just kind of reminds me like for many years I've always had this concept of like it's like, oh, you you die and you go to heaven, you're at the pearly gates and St. Peter's there and it's like and he has a big book and it's just like would you like to see like how much money you've wasted in your life? And it's like what do you mean? You know, it's just like credit card fees, bank overdraft fees, parking tickets, you know, like when you went to the ATM that one time and you took out $100 and you threw the cash in the trash and you kept the receipt. food you bought to Burning Man that was like spoiled, you know, like like you spent $3.2 million. I was like what? You know, but just like are you saying that you like uh how much money like have you spent like on Burning Man or volunteering or

volunteer?

Yeah. Or even just things like we've got all this food for the playa and we ate like half of it and the rest just like oh we didn't get enough ice for that cooler and all that food went bad and we got to like throw it out. I mean

it's not like oh that's this happened one time. We try to limit that kind of food waste, but it absolutely happened.

Yeah.

The first couple years there's no way to avoid it. You're like, "Wow, was that cheese?"

Yeah.

Is it cheese or was it a Is it a sponge? I can't tell.

Yeah. No, it's

I hear

I've gotten to the point now where like last year I I I was camping at um uh Nowhere like uh

Yeah. Yeah. Center Camp. And so like Jenny was kind enough to have me camp there with her. And then uh I had to bring everything I I needed from Hawaii, right? So I had two duffel bags. I had to have like my tent and and everything including all my food. Like you know they they provide like like water and like electricity. I don't need that much electricity. But I was like all my food like I got to do that. So I was like I know you know those Mountain House like those those free dried like meals.

Oh just I'll just bring a bunch of those and then

forge around you know. And I think I I purposely brought only like threearters of the amount of food that I thought I would need, you know, because I was like, "Oh, just eat." And like I didn't even eat all of it, you know? It's like there were other like the plier provides or whatever. Like

for sure.

But um yeah. So then this year like I'm going with with my brother. I'm just like we're only doing freeze-dried food. Like that's it. Like no coolers. You know, it's like you don't have to go around to like all these different like stores. He was like it's like, "Oh, we we got everything. We got to go to Costco. We got to go to Safeway. We got to go here. We got to go there. Go to beverage and more." Like, it's like, "No, no, no. None of that." Like these ziplockc bags. You put like some hot water in it. You stir it around. And then when you're done, it's like the trash is just this little like bag, you know, and the only thing that you need is a spoon and like a kettle.

Yeah.

You know,

I dig it.

I was just like like, "Oh my god, that's like that's so much easier." Like don't have to have an entire kitchen,

you know? like the the moop the the trash you make at the end is like is almost non-existent. Nothing goes bad. Like if you anything that you don't eat, it's just like, "Oh, throw it in the trunk and use it again next year."

Next year.

Well, I don't know if you could do that for a camp of like a hundred people, you know? Like, but

you could try.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if remember like years ago we had our Hawaii camp, the Capilina camp, and We did this like Friday sunset luau and so

Oh wow.

We had a couple years there uh my friend Greg uh who now does um the Monaco, you know, the ship.

Mhm. Sure.

Yeah. So that's he's the captain of that ship.

Oh, cool.

Yeah. So he would bring this like like spit and so we would put that we had like a like a 120 pound pig was like roasting on the spit and for like you know 9 10 hour. We'd start at like a 3:00 in the morning and then you know and then like all day long people kept coming by and they're smelling and they're just and it's just it's just like people like oh my god oh my god that smells so good. And then

amazing

by the time it came around that we had a line of somewhere like 750,000.

Oh I believe it.

You know

the entire city.

Oh yeah. That pig went in like literally like 15 minutes. It was just like poof. Just evaporated. It's gone. You know we're like uh there's still like you know another 500 people on the line. or something. And then I remember like the tuna guys came around and they were just like, "We got you." And we're like, "Yay." So then they just started like dishing fish and

Wow.

heard the tuna guys.

Yeah.

One of the tuna guys died a number of years ago.

Um

I know. I think maybe during the pandemic. Uh

I don't know if the other fella still comes out and does it or not.

Well, I imagine now with like health department rules and stuff, it must be uh Not it's not like the old days it was like ah wash hands what do you mean like here just dish hands eat that you know like

yeah you know rules make fun more fun question mark yeah there's a reason there are health and safety rules around food but it does take a little bit of that like someone handfeeding you hopefully cooked fish in the middle of the night that that ambiance is maybe a little diminished ex Exactly.

But also, no one wants we call it the Norwell virus, but no one wants Noro virus in Black Rock City. Like that's that's a that's a bad day.

Well, it's like back couple days

here where I live in Hawaii. Like I tell people, you know, when they see somebody doing something stupid, I'm just like really is a trip to the hospital part of your plan for your vacation, you know? I mean, it's like when you go to Black Rockck City, are you just like, you know, how I really hope this ends up? I hope that I wake up in a bed in Reno. medical. That's how I hope it is.

Or maybe just like sitting in my tent, you know, like having to run to the porta potty every 30 minutes.

Oh god.

Like Yeah. Nobody wants that, right?

Yeah. I'm so glad I did like Burning Man when I was really young and did lots of stupid like youth was not wasted on me in any way. I did so many stupid things and so many things that could have been much more dangerous. Well, they were dangerous, but they could have been much more damaging.

And I'm very grateful now that like I don't jump on trampolines at Burning Man. I really don't climb things at 30 man because I'm not very good at climbing things and uh you know I I don't I don't take drinks from bars where the person at the bar looks like they don't know what they're doing because I don't want a 16 oz cup full of monog vodka and like

roofies

I see

or roofies that's true also like you know I'm past the point where I need to take those risks

yeah

because I want to like sleep in my own bed and not in a bed in Reno and I want to have a normal like

processing of of within solids through my system.

Yeah,

I want to not have a sun. I don't know. I'm just old now.

Well, also I found

my phone is different.

I mean,

I missed the new podcast like old burner hour.

I might No, but like one of the the the supreme joys I found in coming back to the play after 13 years was actually getting a good night's sleep.

Ah, right.

I was like I was like, God, this is so much more enjoyable. I remember this one morning I actually woke up early. I was like, I'm going to go see the sunrise. I'm going to wake up like like 4:30, 5 in the morning and like one of my actually it was jackass. It was jackass and I woke up and came out and he was just like, "You pushing on through? You pushing on through?" And I'm like, "What? What do you mean pushing on through?" And he was like, "Yeah, you're you're staying up." I'm like, "You all night?" It was I was like, "What are you?" I was like, "Well, I just got up."

And I could just see look at his face. He was like, "Oh,

yeah. I don't know." For many years, like when I was kind of in like my over like drinking and embibing phase like

yeah

this the sun rising was a sign of defeat

like whenever

like I would see the sky turn from jet black to like dark blue I was like no

oh no

not another day of no sleep you know like yeah

I know I think that you know someone who's gone for a very long time doing Burning Man different means like you know like I said I waste was youth was not wasted on me I partied I drank a lot I stayed up all night like I that's I've had that experience. It is now time to have the experience where I can wake up and it's cool in the morning and I can watch the rest of the sunrise and I can go out to the thing that's happening at 10 in the morning

because I'm awake and I've eaten breakfast.

Yeah, there's a whole a different group of people who are out there.

Yeah.

Brighteyed and bushy tailed and like

Yeah,

I'm excited.

It's the morning call. It's like good morning sister. Like

you you are one of the old people. Hello, we see you.

All right. Well, we got to get to the last question. So what has been the impact of Birdie man on your life? I mean you've been Jesus

let's see since 2000 what 25 years now. It's like what what keeps you coming back you know like why why do punish yourself while doing all this stuff?

Uh why do I keep coming back? Um

what's in it for you

there? There are a couple of big reasons why I keep coming back. One is um I appreciate the opportunity to be able to create things with people I love and Burning Man offers a way to do that. Um, the iron monkeys are a great way to do that. Like we spend, we may grumble about it at this time of the summer where we're like, we could be doing other things and instead we're in a hot metal shop in front of a fire like hammering things. But, but the opportunity to create something bigger than yourself and more like outside the boundaries of your own imagination is is a is a privilege and an opportunity that I really value. Um, It also is something in my life that I get to do where I get to bring people along where I can be like, "Hey, do you want to do a crazy ridiculous thing? Come with caveat actually and I hope he doesn't listen to this because I get it wrong every time I say it and he grumbles about it." But he has he defines Burning Man with at three points and my restating of those is um we are having the most fun. Having this fun is really good for you and do you want to go with us? And that that is a lot of why I keep going to Burning Man is is this permission engine, this kindness Olympic, this place where people get to be outside of the confines of a system that is built around scarcity, that is built around um hierarchy, that is built around um historically baked in systems of supremacy and privilege. And I mean, those things certainly exist in Black Rock City. It is very arguably a place where people who have a lot of those permissions and privileges get to go to try to figure out like what that means and if it's okay. They're complicated but but uh those are a lot of the things that bring me back. And the other thing is that after 25 years I mean I I know hundreds and hundreds of people in that city and it is a place to go to see my friends and uh I try to get around the world to see all of them as well but that's hard to do. So um I mean this year it'll be different because so many folks are not coming from overseas or over borders but still like I'll see you out there. I'll see Dana. I'll see, you know, Jenny K. I'll see like all these folks who I've I've done things, who I've made ridiculous decisions with in the past, who I've shared stories with or food or meetings or conferences or whatever with and and having that that throughine of look look who we are and look what we're done and look what we have yet to do was really powerful for me.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But it's just funny because like the the I don't know the through line I've been getting through all of these interviews and like what you just said was like yeah it's an incredible experience but it's not like I don't know it's not so much just just for the individual. It's more like you said like it's it's the group it's the family it's the connection. I mean I think that's the thing that like that I don't know the the glue that kind of like holds it all together because like oh you can go out to the black desert all by yourself and have this like fantastic experience.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like or you make it even like a million times better. It's just like you go with a whole bunch of friends, you know, and have this like you know, experience with a bunch of people. Yeah.

Yeah. Like it's, you know, like the often times people talk about going to Burning Man the first time and finding your people or you like letting your freak flag fly or whatnot. Like we are a we are a freak flag factory. Like we are creating the flags or we are employing people to make their own flags or we are providing them the fabric in the sewing machines. However you want to like make that comparison work, but

and steals it. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And then like the flaming lotus build you flag pole. And I could go on, but but that especially in a world that feels like like it's really trying to divide us and really trying to pit us against each other and and keep us in this like against scarcity mindset or or hoarding mindset of resources or emotions or morality or whatever. Like I think Burning Man is is Burning Man culture. Black Rock City, Critical Northwest, like whatever wherever Burning Man culture has its dusty little tendrils. um fights back against that othering, fights back about that against that divisionism. And I think right now it's incredibly important and it's always important, but it's really really important right now to remember that if we take off all of these things about how much you make and like what your political lines are and how you identify yourself and who's who wants to judge you for identifying yourself some way that actually we can all eat bacon at sunrise together and get along just f****** fine. And so what are these systems doing? to serve us and what is like how is our creativity and our humanity and our kindness all being squaltched by these things that are being laid on top of us and I think it's incred it's incredibly important to be able to take like get your head up out of the water for a second and take a breath and be able to be like oh f*** yeah bacon does taste good with everybody in the morning doesn't matter if we don't speak the same language or or or any of those things that

yeah

that are so built to divide us

the only thing better than bacon in the morning is bacon

and and homemade pie together in the morning.

Oh s***, that's a possibility.

Yes, it's called the champions. Yeah. Uh but yeah, I mean just looking at like politically and everything, you know, just right now especially like it just seems like people are so concerned about how we can divide each other off, you know, it's like my team, your team, but whereas Burning Man is kind of more like no, no, no, let's dissolve these walls. It's like how can we actually connect and come together, right? So, um you Did you read Marian's well at this point now recent article in the was it the Reno Gazette?

Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. I totally a thousand% like love that because it's exactly great

we're talking about. I mean I'm just a little sad that it hasn't gotten like you know more reaction for people more play but like I guess maybe it's one of those things where people if it's just like well yeah we all agree with that so no one's going to talk about it. Maybe it becomes like a big topic on edit or whatever, you know, people like, "No, screw you, man." Like, "I don't like that." But no, I mean, the whole gist of it for the listeners when you should go listen, we'll put the link to that in the show notes, too, was just exactly what we're talking about. Like, you know, the Birdie Man just through its essence of, you know, whether it's Black Rock City or regional events or everything, it's like it it dissolves the boundaries between people like it it fosters like human connection. Like perhaps that's

yes,

the greatest gifts, you know, in terms of like, oh, Brandon's changing the world. just like well you know maybe not directly you know but

just some small way you know it's like this is the gift that we can kind of give back you know just like hey remember we're all people and you know we're not so

yeah I think there's real power in remembering that joy is resistance that that being able to have levity creation is resistance being able to build art or make pie to share with bacon in the morning or develop a sick ass DJ set or do your ranger training or give someone a band-aid when they need it. All those things of of joy of of creating a moment. Those are all it's resistance. It's it's

um there's a great quote that's been going around. I don't know if it's going around everywhere, definitely in Seattle because Dan Savage is from Seattle, but Dan Savage uh has a quote about the AIDS the period of the AIDS crisis and it makes me cry every time I say it. I say this quote like three times a week with people and it's going to get me this time. too. It's um we buried our friends in the morning, we protested all afternoon, and we danced all night.

I love it.

And I like it gives me like goosebumps.

Yeah.

Um but I think that there's some truth to that. You you you have your feels like you sit with your feels at a point in time. You stand up and you you talk about what's important to you. You resist, you protest, you build, you create, and then you find joy with your people.

Oh yeah.

And that and that is a huge part of Burning Man. These are people I really like to find joy with.

Yeah,

because they because they're weird as hell and they find joy in all sorts of strange ways.

Oh yeah, man. The world will be saved by art. And then Art like, "Hey, what the hell? Why do I have to save the whole world?"

Like, "Oh, god damn it.

God damn it. I got to do

see him scratching out his name tag like still more." Yeah. Not hard anymore. Well, thank you so much. This has been an amazing interview. And

yeah, thank you. Thanks for the invite. It's been really lovely to chat with you.

And uh I'll see you on the play.

Yeah, for sure. Come by. Maybe we'll uh maybe we can have bacon and pie at dawn.

Oh yeah, definitely.

Awesome. Thank you, Andy.

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