EP 38 Tex Burner

Episode 38 with Tex Burner (aka Tex Allen) is out now! Meet Tex Allen, a longtime member of the Burning Man community who shares his journey from a "weird kid out of suburbia" to a prominent performance artist. The conversation explores the transformative power of presence and radical gifting, specifically through Tex’s two major long-term projects: distributing over 50,000 clown noses to bypass social barriers and founding the Church of Hugs to foster human connection. Tex describes how these "social experiments" originated from personal moments of frustration or grief, eventually evolving into global movements that emphasize synchronicity and vulnerability. Ultimately, the source serves as a testament to the Burning Man ethos, illustrating how the principles of the playa can be "graduated" and applied to the default world to create a more compassionate and magical reality. I apologize in advance if the levels are a little off in this episode it was my first recording with some new equipment

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Transcript

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. a burning man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Boy, howdy. It's that Andy. Today our guest is Tex Burner. So is that how you want to be? known as?

 Tex Allen I've had forever. Let's just use that and I can tell you why later. How about that?

Okay.

Thanks, man.

Well, welcome to the show. How you doing? So, uh

yeah, thank you.

What was the first uh your first Burning Man experience

and when do you

Well, let me ask you this and I I think this counts, but I'm going to count Jupa and living within one of the founding like community housing places in the mission, a house with people uh that was filled with burners. So I'm given all that I'm going to count you palea as my first quoteunquote burning man experience because

that was that was our entry to the community at least out in the playa we were living in a we had moved to San Francisco um quite kind of you know not by accident because you know I'm sure it was it was all orchestrated by the universe before but um Immediately after moving into a house filled with burners that more of a community housing situation, we found ourselves at Jupla in 2006. And this was, you know, during the heyday of Jupya where we had, you know, you had to shoot, you have a shooting range out there with like, you know, 40 or 50 guys and gals with various calibers of weapons, you know, shooting whatever DPW left. I mean, this was Juplaya, so it wasn't quite Burning Man, but uh I'm counting that as a Burning Man exp. experience.

Yeah. Yeah. So, 2006 Jupy

2006.

Yeah. I never actually made it out to any of those Jupiters.

Ah, I think they're still going on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. My first bra experience was like 96 when there was what, like five 8,000 people or something was kind of jupy.

Okay. Okay. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's what I saw in Wired Magazine and Look other things, you know, looking in at the culture from afar, even back in 96 and 97.

Yeah.

Was, you know, those were the days. Those were the seinal the seinal moments.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, back in 96, from what I've seen in 97, back those days, Jupya is awfully similar. I mean, you've got two or three thousand burners spread out across miles and miles of ply with, you know, very, very few rules and and no organiz So even even though I missed Plan B, I think Plan B was probably the purest burn that's happened in a couple of decades.

The the Renegade burn from what 20 what 21 was that?

21. Yeah, 21. Plan B. I've got I've got the big ticket here somewhere. The M It's You know, it's about it's it's massive. It's like four times the size of regular ticket. It's It's hilarious.

You were living like down in the mission and some friends who were like, "Oh, let's go out to Juplaya." And that that was your first introduction.

Yeah. Well, the thing is, um, we had gone to San Francisco to work ostensibly just for a few weeks, maybe like five or six weeks. We came in, we were in Colorado at the time, for over a decade. And um, we went to San Francisco to work on some tech and worked with a guy who was um, kind of a magic wizard, kind of inventor type. And you never really knew what he was about, but he had a lot of hand and everything. And he was working on hybrid car technology and while we were staying in hotels, Santaon came up

and we were previously cosplayers of a huge degree for years. We love dressing up and we said, "Well, this sounds like a lot of fun. Let's go check that out." Because we knew from checking out places like Laughing Squid and Boing Boing what the history of it was. We said, "Well, you know, f*** yeah, that's for us." Like, you know, sign me up. Let's go. And we went out, made some costumes from Chinatown. out and and halfway through um Shan Con the next day and we as as as everybody had stopped in North Beach at a series of bars, two women came up to us and kind of said, "Hey, we've been watching you guys. You seem like you're our kind of people." And we're like, "What the what? Okay, this sounds like a cult. Tell me more." And uh we got invited to the afterparty at the Santa Con, which was this location in the mission where they were having the afterparty and it was a community house and it was um hidden hidden in the mission. You never even know it was there. But when we showed up, our door the doors opened up to us. You know, the three or 4 hundred people in various states of Santa, reindeers, elves, undressed, whatever it was, fire burlesque, all that going on. And we didn't know what it was, but we knew we wanted more of it because we' never seen anything like it as a weird kid out of suburbia. And fast forward a few months later, they actually invited us to live at their place because they had an open house, an open room and you know we didn't know at the time that that house was filled with people who literally had created Burning Man in every various department you can think of and everybody that came through the doors every other weekend for the big parties were Burning Man. So we got magically synchronistically you know incredibly dropped into the f****** center of the community and never looked back.

Wow. So that was 2006, huh?

2006. But 2009 was our first burn. And funnily enough, like because we were living in that place for well over a year and having helped him clean up and get ready and get breakdown and get, you know, all the things around Burning Man all the time. For the first two, three years, we said, "Fo, we're never going." Like, why would we ever go on and do that? Like, Julia is enough. That's awesome. We see how you people come back. We see how it tests your relationships, your body, your spirituality. Everything is f*****. Why would I ever want to show up to that? No thank you. And of course we changed our minds and you know uh we only missed two burns between 2009 and 20ou 2019.

So what

but we did a total of 60 replies as well.

What what changed your mind? Like

um what changed our mind?

Yeah.

Well, we actually you know because we were in the community for so long and every day was essentially Burning Man around us anyway. Um We just got I think we got comfortable with the idea and after a few duplas we knew that we could handle the environment and we knew that we we knew that we didn't know anything even though we thought we knew a lot going in. We knew that it was going to be you know what we see versus what we're going to experience would be two different things and we were honestly scared for a long time because again because of all the troubles and hardships that people go through. So we finally said you know if we're about it and we're in the community and the community has been so beautiful and supporting us we're we're growing, you know, like this is a magic time of our lives. What could what could possibly go wrong? You know, really it's like what could go right? Let's just try this out. And of course, everything was different than we ever thought it would be. You know, the scale, the magnitude, the intensity, you name it. It was so it was so different than what we thought it was going to be like. It got to us immediately and it just changed us. And then, you know, there we were. We were in the shoot every year, just living it every day. you know, getting ready for those 13 or so days on the fly every year.

So, how did you uh like where did you camp like your first year in 2009? Because you said you were living in a house that were just filled full of experience.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We had we had moved out had our place and we camped our first year with uh Unicorn Ranch run by Polly Whitaker, Polly Superstar out of the Bay Area. Uh and Unicorn Ranch was inside of Illumination Village, Ilville. So, we were village idiots our first year and which I what I still believe is the best the best village out there, you know, the first the first real big village full of fire artist and fuckos. I mean, it's it's it's a great it's a great village and we landed there. We had a $500 janky RV that my wife fixed up beautifully inside, but barely made it to the ply back but spent 500 bucks on an RV in Oakland. So,

our first year we actually made it there in a small, you know, unit.

You bought it for 500 or you rent

You bought it for 500 bucks. Yeah. I thought that Yeah, it totally funny. Crazy thing is like it was losing oil, but we didn't know it. And when we when we got on Playa like very next day, someone said, "Man," you know, it was it was immediately like a do you're doing it wrong situation because we had this puddle of oil underneath the thing and had to climb up under there and turns out we had also like run over something and like ripped a hole in the gas holes. And it was like our first year was like, can we even get this thing all fly and be good responsible citizens.

That's hilarious.

And then came back to Oakland and and and the place we're out of Regge and it got towed and we never saw it again. Like the city of Oakland took it and it still had some of the great things from Bernie after our first Bernie man. It's like a someone got those costumes. Someone's got that bullhorn, you know. $500 disposable RV. Not bad.

Yeah, I don't think they exist anymore.

No, no. Nowadays, honestly, I I've only ever been like in a tent, you know? It's I've uh I've never had uh the the luxury of being in an RV.

That dream one of these days, but

no, we didn't have it afterwards. You know, the ice tents are great, right? The ice tents like what a what a fantastic We did that last 2019 was an ice tent. inside of a 10 inside of a 10 by20 Costco and it was it was paradise. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh so 2009 your first BRC. Um did like did you volunteer? Did you get involved with any of the organ?

Yeah. You know, come to think of it, thanks for asking. Uh yeah, the first year out I I did greeters because uh I was already, you know, an outgoing, gregarious, etc., etc. guy all the time, you know, performative generally in public, especially in the community that thought, well, you know, what's the best place for me to volunteer? I need to do something. And I was out there on the front lines and greeters and uh that yeah, loved it. Every time I still have such mad respect for the greeters to be out there in the elements just welcoming people. But yeah, later volunteer to Arctica, help her in the ice line at six o'clock, the main the main igloo. So that's been a lot of fun with the bullhorn and making sure people park their bikes and the pluck out of there

or whatever. Like you get 400 surly people in the middle of a day wedding brides.

Yeah.

So, have you been volunteering with the greeters from Arctica like ever since or?

Uh, no group once at Arctic a few years, but really once the the Why the No Project started along with Church of Hugs, I really didn't have time to volunteer anywhere because, you know, Bernie and is an instant canvas for every kind of art I do as a performance artist. So every every every second I'm awake, there's something ready that I could be doing out with the community, you know, out making experiences out experiencing things and and um turning those into art and meeting people and taking photography and it's like uh no, I'm a bad burner. I haven't volunteered nearly we do so much we do so much in the community every day. It was almost like, you know what? I'm gonna do my art out here because 365 we're in the Bay Area supporting Burning Man, etc. I didn't just do I've got this one little window of time to make this kind of this specific kind of magic. That's what I want to do.

So, what kind of art were you doing that day?

So, the quick story went uh is I the universe gave me something to do after being in the community for few years in 2000. Well, just before 2000, just before the burn in 2009, we were getting ready for Jupla um down in the South Bay, San Jose area, going to the big malls, shopping for things we knew we could use, you know, socks, underwear, t-shirts, costume type things, whatever it was. And after a day of that, being in public where everyone's on their phone looking down, bumping into you, not looking up, we went to the mall of America So the big one in

Militas

and uh you know being surirly push pay you know I'm putting over $200 worth of clothes whatever hey how you doing nice afternoon what's going on here here's here's what I'm buying and this basically you know get the f*** out of here you know not no one's giving me presents so on the way home we stopped at a Starbucks and on the way in I just said you know what I'm so angry at the world and I did something I grabbed a clown nose out of my dashboard there was a party previously a week before a circus theme party where at the end of the night there were a few dozen clown nose on the tables and my wife said we should grab those because we'll use them for something and I was like you're absolutely right sure like we're burning we'll do that something will happen with them and I took a clown nose out put it on my nose dress in t-shirt jeans and Chuck Taylor's and just went into Starbucks basically daring people to you know say something m*********** I dare you so angry I just I did this just treat you. I come come with it. And instead I was met with, "Hey man, that's really funny. Why are you doing that?" "Hey man, did you lose a bet? That's awesome. Hey man, are you a doctor?" And people were asking me the question, "Why the nose?" And I didn't expect that. You know, I was met with presence and kindness and joviality and humor. And it really hit me. And when we were sitting down uh for about 15 minutes, uh an older lady was sitting next to us. She asked me, "Why the nose?" She said the words, "It's why the nose." And I told her, she said, "That's really awesome. It really," when I looked over, it made my day. I wish I had a couple of noses because a friend of mine's in the hospital and we're going to go see her. And right after the coffee shop here and I said, "You hang on. I'll be right back." I ran to the car. I got two noses. And instantly, I was gifting. There was presence. There was immediacy. There was radical expression. Everything was just rolled into this one little thing. And when we got home, my wife said, "Get the domain. Why the nose? You're on to something." Fast forward to every day for seven years, I wore it on my face when I left the house. If you ask me why the notes, if you engage with me, you've got one. I personally gave out over we gave out over 50,000 in seven years. At Burning Man in seven years, he gave out over 50,000. You know, famous there's so many. It's millions of stories, but that was the raison on detra every day for Bernie man in real life because suddenly I was thrust into something that nobody had done that nobody even thought about doing that of course nobody would even think about doing say what are you going to do I'm going to wear clown nose every day for seven years okay that's a great idea no but it turned me into a photographer because I would start taking pictures of people who were wearing the nose and the photos were magic they were beautiful they were so full of life and joy and wonder and I realized pretty quickly that I'm not the guy taking these photos. There's something working through me. And I learned that even more so one day when Will Chase and I'm sure you know he's on your list. U Will got a hold of me via email said call him and he said that we love what you're doing at headquarters. He's a burning man in action. I'm shortening it, but he said that you're doing your thing as an artist. And I said wearing condos is my thing as an artist. This is what I've been waiting for. He's like, trust me, it's it's a path. something else, but you're doing your thing. Keep it up. And shortly after that, it's when I got the Burning Man journal post about why the nose. It was in the official documentary as a joke when a friend of mine put a clown nose on the man. He's on the man crew. The man has a clown nose on its face. My wife had a dream before that happened. She woke up one in the morning and said, "I had a a vision, a dream that there was a burning man in your heart and a clown nose on a man." And I was like, "Well, that's awesome. That's that's beautiful. Six months later, there's the condos on the man in and the documentary Spark the Burning Man story. So for seven years, I lived that fire every day, every way. Always ready, always present in public, always ready to meet someone with the story. And ultimately, they were coming to me and they were the messages. You understand? I'm sure you get this. They were the messages. Every time I put it on, I knew that once or twice or three times I was going to get a a message. download someone who was a messenger to come and tell me whatever their story was about why they're engaging with me. I have a clown nose on but it happened a thousand times. It's so that's you know just the short about how Bernie man opened up and changed that and created a project that went around the world that got stolen by Red Nose Day in America who aed my why the nose in the Walgreens commercials they were doing and we took 5,000 noses and ruined their white red-nosed day grand opening in New York and made videos and have I mean it was just so Bernie man opened up so much magic you know that's why I stayed in it so long because every day every second when you're in that vibration you're open to every if and you know this every single possibility is out there and um I still use you know the little hand clickers when you count people

Yeah. Okay, I started giving those away after I stopped giving out notices because I started using those count synchronicities in life every day. Like you might you may get this when you see 111 222 whatever your magic number is or you pull up you get a parking space and it's the right parking space and it's all magic and beautiful or whatever these things are that just show you that pass the veil which is what Burning Man does for us. I count those on my clicker and I started giving away at Burning Man teaching people just to do this because The more you do it, the more presence you have, the more synchronicity happens, the more that's drawn to you. And in 2019, from the start of the event on Sunday at noon to the end of the event a week later, I counted 385 clicks of Burning Man.

So,

yeah, I think because it's one of those things where that, you know, people just kind of experience these odd synchronicities. It's kind of cool to kind of quantify it, you know, like uh Yeah, I mean it'd be cool if you had a clicker and afterwards like how many clicks do you have today?

It really is, you know, because like you can start the day off great and happy and shiny and full of affirmations and singing your songs or whatever you're doing, exercising, and then at five o'clock, you get a freaking flat tire on the 280 or wherever your local highway is that's full of people at five o'clock and you're broken down and you're angry and you're cursing at your car and all those things are happening and you can't get a break and then you look down and you have 25 clicks and it's like okay you know smarty you can't go up all day you got to come down at least a little sometimes this is the balance let go you know you're already 25 clicks up this is just one click down and no joke I mean that attitude I keep a clicker with a carabiner on my uh on my mer every day on my shoulder holster and so it's always right there. Something happens like I click. Yes. Thank you. And you say thank you. It's like thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because you're putting out a vibe and only if you say thank you, the only vibe that's going to react to that vibe is something you're going to be thankful about. And it's such a simple point of presence. And I would give way more clickers at Burning Man, but I can't get them below a buck 50 or two bucks a piece.

Yeah, that's It's worth every penny.

Yeah. Well, you got to make each one worth it, I guess.

Oh, yeah. People. Yeah.

Go ahead.

Clown noses. How many years? You said for you gave away over 50,000 clown noses at Burning Man. Like over how many?

Yeah. Seven years.

Yeah. We had a we had a basket in the middle of center camp cafe with a big art banner talking about the piece about what I'm doing. Paper pictures pictures with noses and a big digital display screen. This is a long time ago when they were expensive. Um running my videos and photos 247. And then below all of that was it was an it was a red IKEA laundry hamper that was transparent, you know, mesh. And inside I would load 500 or a thousand noses a day first thing in the morning. Like at six o'clock I'd be up anyway. So I just bike over to center camp with all these noses, load up the basket and then just and I had a notepad um a big chunky notepad where people could leave their messages and emails and every day I would check it again by like maybe noon or one o'clock and they'd all be gone

really.

But yeah, but over the course of the week I would almost everywhere I'd look I would see a nose all because I had 5,000 to 7,000 noses among 70,000 people. So if I look around. We would see notes everywhere. And then other people started bringing them who were following the project. One guy brought yellow and purple and green ones. That was his colors. One guy was bringing 5,000 in the uh 5,000 like I was, but he was bringing purple and we knew it because one day we're driving, we're biking over in the middle of six o'clock in the esplanade and there's a purple nose and then there's another purple nose and there's another. We're like, wait, what's going on? Because our noses are red and these are the same size noses we have. an inch and a half, the professional like quality noses.

And the guy said, "Oh yeah, there's this guy with purple hair and he's giving out noses and he wears one every day. He says, you know, the artist that does this and he gave us noses." I'm like, "Okay." It took me four years later to meet that guy. And then somebody else who turns out he was from the bay and he had his own three colors and that was his way to contribute. He was doing the same thing. So it's interesting how you know like art some people art inspires other people like inspired me and then you just know that someone's out there doing it exponentially and they're doing and they're giving away. So we gave out well more than 50,000 noses I think and seven years of apply and the stories you know they could come back all the time about people wearing it and it just changing everything when they just decided to try it out for a day and just go out and just be brave and put one on in public and see what happened what transpired.

How would you collect those stories? Was it was it just this like

people email me every day I would wake up in those seven years and I'd have in the course of a day five or six emails a day from all over the world. Um people if you emailed me I would send you noses anywhere in the world. One guy from the Philippines asked I was like wow this is interesting. He wants a he wants like 10 noses in the Philippines. I was like sure no problem. I hear back from him a year not a year a month later and he was just finishing building his own house in the Philippines. A guy and his wife and like seven kids and they needed the total of 10 noses for their family to bless his house, man. He wanted him to bless his Hey, he he found me on on like Facebook, YouTube, you know, he'll never go to Bernie, man, but he loved the project and he wanted a nose to bless his house. And so, and I had those stories almost every month. There was this new something new every time, something different, something wonderful.

Well, how did like the guy in the Philippines even like find out about you, or was it just like kind of the network? Um, it I think it was late enough where it might have been that that was after Red Nose Day uh copied some of my stuff and used it for their for their very fraudulent campaign they do every year. And we took 5,000 noses to New York and ruined their things and made music videos and gave out 5,000 noses in Manhattan and Harlem in 24 hoursish. And uh I got some press on that. because because of because of the stunt, you know, getting kicked out of NBC's properties and having a it was a Huffington Post article about the exploits and I think he saw me and I was also we were on a right this minute TV about that stunt as well. So that went national syndication for we were on there three times for that for for noses. So I think maybe he it could have been one of the news articles, the Huffington Post or Right This Minute TV and since right Minute TV is a US, you know, syndicated thing. It's probably going to the Philippines. I don't know. I should have asked him, but it was wild. I was like, I just took the thing. I said, absolutely. And he came back later with a story about why he wanted him. So,

so this all started with just like going into like a Starbucks with like clown nails

with a bad attitude. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the universe like, "Oh, really? No. I'm going to show you what kind of power you really have. I'm going to make you wear that seven years

and just but it was it was full-time presence, you know, because when you have that on, you have to be present fully and you have to generally have a pleasant look on your face, not a frown. And you have to be ready for anything anyone comes up to you with. And it could be, oh, my my husband was a clown. He died last year. He reminded me of my husband every year he did this. Or my husband was a shriner. Or I used to be an insane clown. Poss. jugalo, but I reformed myself and now I'm a good clown. And really this guy, one guy did that and he showed me his ankle and he had a cover up from a jugalo over to like a really happy clown face. He but now I'm like a happy guy and I gave up my lifestyle and for seven years every time I left the house these stories would come in. So

wow. So what happened after the end of those seven years?

One day it just it as quick as it pounds it goes. Um, other artists may have that story because like previously from 1999 to 2003, I built the World Stormtrooper organization, all the cosplayers to the point where we were working with Lucas Film in an official capacity and we're in episode three, the 50irst, the long story, but after that died after essentially and you know and gratefully and miraculously, you know, like no No pride here. Like I I was in in awe that I got to help create something that is still going and has changed Lucasfilm cannon and cosplay in one swoop. But back when I died because of a lot of reasons. I was wondering like I've done everything I could do in life at this point. You know I'm 30 whatever, right?

I did this big thing whatever you know this big thing. What's next? And then Burning Man comes along and after a few years in the community around the community I I get given this gift of presence in another way to go out in public dressed up ridiculously like a storm trooper and only now got a clown nose on and I'm affecting people in a very similar more meaningful way and one point after seven years one morning I woke up and it was like I've done everything I can do and this is it I'm done it just the muse turns off and shortly after that this thing with a church of hugs with free hugs as for now seven years almost eight That's that's the new thing. So it seems my path is one where I just follow whatever the universe, God's source, you you know, whatever you want to call it, tells me to do as doing something performative and public that nobody else is going to do to this extreme and I just follow it. And yeah, one day I just woke up and it was it quit, but shortly after it was replaced with the hugs.

So you did the noses from what 2009?

Yeah. Yeah. Till about 200 I mean little even on and off till about yeah 17 18 and after 18 it was I was already hugging in 2017 massively

but they kind of they overlap a little bit.

So you're still doing the church of the free hugs now?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What's that all about?

Um well when I first when I Sorry.

And how did that come about? Yeah. Um, well, I grew up in Texas, hence the name. They thought it was funny at the community house we were living in. They named me Tex. And, uh, that was nothing. I didn't think it would ever stick to my wife, but it did. H, but growing up in Texas, you may know it's the McKismo in Texas is pretty heavy duty. And men don't hug. You know, get a firm handshake at a distance so you can protect yourself from the other man, right? And hugs. don't happen unless you're in church and then you get the church hug and it's like you know the bend over tatt tap oh bless you honey I love you and then they turn around and it's you know whatever gossip's happening and I said that's how I grew up around hugs so I wasn't a hugger and being around the community for so long I started doing it but reluctantly after a few years but fast forward to about 2000 this is seven years ago so 2017 or so 2016 Actually, a friend died in a motorcycle accident overnight and he was staying in a uh at a friend's house with us. It was his fiance, our friend. She was traveling in Europe and uh he was met us at a party out in the park in Oakland to uh just to hang out post Burning Man. Everybody getting together. He was going to go to another event afterwards and hang out with that camp of people he knew as well. When he left our camp, he said, "Yeah, I'll see at home later." He never comes home the next the next morning we don't know where he is. We finally through our investigation learned that he had an accident and we were s we had to suddenly take care of a lot of people including this person in the community and after a week of that I was so rot and raw that I had been watching and thinking about doing the free hugs thing because it seemed like it could be a thing I decided to do it and I got a post a p piece of board poster board and I wrote hug me question mark I trust to you and I was going to go into the city into the tenderloin and for those of you who are listening not San Francisco this is the unfortunately you know the easiest act thing to say is that Skidro name the city but very distraught always been this way for about decades and I thought if anyone needs love more than me it's probably these people that I need I'm going out here because I need connection so I went to the tenderloone with a blindfold on and stood the middle of the 101 for three hours with the sun. You know, I just dove all the way in with the most ridiculous thing I could do at the time. But it healed me and the number of people that hugged me. I I don't know. It was easily over 103 hours. But the stories and the emotion and the love and the presence and giving them what they needed because they don't have a lot of human contact is generally not adversarial or violent or, you know, whatever it is out there. So I did that and once I was I was walking back to the train station and as I was getting on the train leaving uh the area, a friend who was also a deep burner like me was coming off the train with her boyfriend and said, "What's going on?" I told her, she said, "Give me the sign and the blindfold." And she took the sign directly back in for another two plus hours herself. And that changed everything. I was like, "Here we go." I knew it immediately like that was the moment. And shortly after that, was the uh the next big down welcome universe to do this every day as much as possible was Trump had recently gotten elected and the very next night there was going to be protests in downtown Oakland and I convinced a friend of mine to go with me with two signs that's free hugs in the middle of 25,000 pissed-off people and really pissed off and uh we had more hugs than you can count because people you know on the other side of their angst and hate and whatever for their feeling, their anger. There's a balance to that and it's a huge hole in the heart where love needs to go. So, we became a magnet point immediately. And unbeknownst to us, a lot of video was being taken, but we didn't know video was taken of us until later when the Academy Awards were on during the Academy Awards that year. Just a couple months later, Cadillac had a commercial called Together where it's basically It's a commercial about, you know, hey, look, we're all to get in this together. We're all Americans. This is the best car company. Let's all work together. You know, history, all those things. But it's a beautiful commercial. They've never done a political commercial in the history in the history of their brand adage and 25 other news outlets covered this two minutes worth of love fest about taking care of each other. And the first 20 seconds they show black and white protests, horses, cops, people, firebombing, smoke, saying, you know, this is what there this is what they want you to believe but here's who we really are and when they make that statement you know but here's what it's really like the color comes around like the Wizard of Oz everything goes to color from black and white and the first thing you see is one of our hands up with our free hug signs in the middle of the Oscars and I looked up at that moment

wow

and I was like all right you got me this is a good one you know like really the Oscars and we're the turning point of this commercial that talking about being together from Cadillac and the next day I got thousands of emails about that and talk people messages like man did you plan that how'd you do that I said we're just doing our thing you know we're following the music we're following the universe we're doing the love thing and yeah so it's just been weird thing and beautiful thing one after another with the hugging thing and so yeah and those just got taken over and you know they get replaced by something even more meaningful.

Oh, so how many people are involved with your church free heights?

You never know. I mean uh I've sent out dozens and dozens of signs around the country but um it's really mainly it's just me unless I ask other people to participate. I'm living currently in Mexico and the uh in San Miguel de Yende which the brand of this city is the heart of Mexico. It's got a flaming heart as its logo and I stand in front of the main church in the middle with the center. Hang on. Sorry about that.

Um the uh so I'm down there and typically I'll take a few signs with me because people always want to join me.

Okay.

You know if and if I I'm out there for an hour on a Sunday in the afternoon and usually I'll do it well more than a hundred plus hugs in that time because it's a very loving it's a very loving culture here. So, you know, they're all about the hugs. But some days I've had as many as seven people join me and use up every extra sign I've got. Like no joke

really.

So, you never know. But more more importantly, I think is that since I got the download, you know, the universe doesn't give any one person a message. It's rare that only one person gets an opportunity.

Typically, it'll be spread among a few people and it's like, "Okay, who's going to take action first?" Right? And since I've been hugging, I've had a search on Google's news about hugs, free hugs. And there has been an exponential uptick the last few years of news stories and people out doing it for their various reasons, many similar to mine, where they just needed it or they knew or they needed they knew the community needed it and they decided to take a chance but there's been multiple people who have popped up where seven eight years ago nobody was but I think that now with the rising consciousness with the access to this media and the immediiacy of it that now more and more people are I mean it's being turned on in them so like when I started there might have been 10 people around the world who are dedicated to it and I was on those one of those fingers now there's multiples like you know, and I'm always grateful to see that, you know, one ripple, my ripple, other people's ripples, they all send it out and it hits a lot of people that that really want to do it.

Yeah. No, that's beautiful. I mean, is this like organized or is this more just kind of like organic kind of like I mean, you have like a website. I mean, are you like the

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. I've got the websites and the media channels and all those, but um it's really this

sounds like the pope of the church of the free hugs. I'm the I'm the reverend of the Church of H. I'm a reverend.

No, not a pope. But any and anybody's welcome. That's the thing. Anybody's welcome. That this is the when we we called it a church because people told us it was a church. I mean, we we both grew up in the church in the south and you know over the course of years finally gotten rid of a lot of that unfortunately damage. So it was it was really a massive jump to call it a church and embrace that. But embrace But you know, people told us, they said, you know, what you we've heard it. We heard it over and over and over, typically in a southern accent. It's like, honey, do you know what you're doing here is church?

Well, it's it's times what people maybe what they mean. I know Larry Harvey would say like Bernie man is like a church or you know, without the higher power. It kind of like the the fellowship, you know, it's like it's it's people like having together, you know, it's like like ah specifically like what natural things what we may or may not believe. It's more of like, you know, like in in this place it's like we kind of get together.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I I think it's interesting. I love that from my arc. It's gone from wearing a lot of armor and a helmet and all the other crap. This this beautiful uniform is a lot of work to put out some love and take your helmet off and you know hospital visits and all the good it's been all the good it did to what clown knows. still got a mask on, but it's the tiniest mask you can wear. It's fun, but you're still performing to all the way to completely vulnerable with a with a blindfold and a hug sign and anybody's welcome. And it's amazing how quickly my sign says free hugs here with an arrow pointing down. How quickly three words break down every barrier that Larry and everybody always wanted to think about. It's like if you can get down to people's hearts and you send out the heart vibe, I live and see people who sometimes don't even know why they're coming in, but their heart feels it long before their brain cognitively makes the calculations if they have any about is this person riskworthy? What am I doing? Blah blah blah blah blah. It's such an instant thing that I'm so grateful that it's come along that I can see the world distilled immediately not, you know, 5 10 15 feet away when they're coming in and they're completely open and you know that all the things going to burn man about a community and putting out that vibe where people feel that presence like you do when you're on Playa. To be able to feel that in the real quote unquote world or the outside world, whatever people want to call it default is is just been one of the biggest most grateful things I could have ever had out of Burning Man. And uh and I got I think I have to thank Hion a little bit because he inspired me to hug as well. I'll throw it I'll throw it down for Hion on that as well. and all the hugs they give out.

Do you ever have any bad reactions or people like what do you think hug anybody?

Oh, well, sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you get some you get some there there's been a range of um it's not it's not really cat calling. It's just like throwing shade or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've got Yeah. Well, I mean, here here's here's a story. Um on the embaradero one afternoon with three or four other people people hugging. We're facing the crowds walking by. For people who don't know, it's like the boardwalk of San Francisco. Thousands and thousands of tourists moving along at a brisk or not so brisk pace. And we're looking at them for like an hour. And here comes a group of guys past us almost like in a line like a wall of them about six of them all wearing Dallas Cowboys t-shirts and big statue, big shoulders, big cowboy Texas guy, right? And they're six of five of the six of them are looking over and laughing like you know, whatever they're hung uping under their breath. I'm sure I heard f***** at least once. And whatever whatever they were saying, it was gnarly. And right when they got in front of me, five of them kept going, but one of them did a 90 degrees turn and came and hugged me and picked me up and held me for a few seconds. Then he let me down, but he wouldn't let go. And I got my arms around him. And this went on for a over the first minute. After the first minute, he starts crying. under his breath a little and shaking. And within two minutes, it's over. And the reason he he came in, he said, because his father had died seven years ago, and he had never had a touch from a man since his father. He never had his dad's hugs. He missed that. And that was one of those stories that, you know, the people, you know, walking by doing whatever they do, that turned to be a great story. But you know, this is such a love vibe, so unconditional and intentional that when it hits people, if there's enough darkness in there in them,

oh f***, man. I mean, it comes out. Like when I met when I was another, we lived in San Jose del Cabo, Mexico for three years, you know, down there on the beach at an art gathering, an art walk every month on every week on a Thursday for most months. And I would stand in the middle of one of streets in front of a a great outdoor bar and hangout that had great house music. I love hugging in front of the house music was great. I'm like, "This is my spot, you know, like I want to stand here." But a lot of people in there are watching because it's an open bar. There's tables everywhere and a bar facing the street. And the comments that I would hear sometimes later when because I had a video camera video myself or later to make videos with the comments I would hear would shock you and sometimes my wife would watch and she literally heard people like a group of guys going he's be thinking this thinking it was a hook that I was out there trying to fill up women that whatever my thing was as a predator and this m*********** that and I can't believe this dude and w check and she had to call them down one time and that's not something you want her to do because I've seen her do it to people on ply is not pretty and yeah it happens because There's just so much in them that needs to get out. They need a release for it. And something gets them or they just feel comfortable letting it go.

Wow. That's incredible.

But it's it's just it's just physics, you know, and it's never happened in Mexico. I'll tell it never happened anywhere here where I am now.

Not for the last year. Never. No. This is this is hug central.

That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I bet there's probably like a lot of people out there, you know, like you're saying like they don't even know that it's something that they need and then there's going to be half across. It's like sure, I'll try it out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's easy to spread and you know there's no you can do it whenever you feel like it and there's always an audience. That's the thing. I mean it's

actually like out on the pla too or

Oh yeah. Yeah. Did it many time did it forever on the but did it for years in the ply I would say from 20 2016, 17, 19, but 2017 was Radical Ritual. You remember this theme?

Uh, I wasn't there that year, but yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Radical Ritual. And we were having we were having uh lunch with some friends at their house getting ready before Burning Man like few months before chatting about it and the theory and the the subject of radical ritual came up and uh they said somebody said, "But how do we radicalize free hugs? I mean, they're pretty radical already. What can we do to radicalize them as a ritual? And I think one of the one of the other guy there said, "Well, you know, I might have even said this. I got to remember it, right?" I said, "Well, we could do it for a day. We could do it for 24 hours. No sleep. We just hug people be, you know, one place." And someone and one of them said, "Well, it's 24 hours. There's no way you can be still for 24 hours at Burning Man. You're not gonna be in one place. There's no way you could do that. You're right. I was like, absolutely right. There's no way. My wife's like, "Yeah, there's no way. I can't keep you in one place for a day. No way. We have to be tied down." And the idea something came up. Oh, we could do that. We could tie ourselves. We could chain ourselves to the PLA. And the idea quickly evolved into a thing called love chain where we take ankle cuffs and 20 feet of steel chain and take a piece of rebar and bury those chains. So, we have a 20 foot each worth of chain or 40 foot is a freedom and we're going to be in the middle of Bernie man. End up it was 6 o'clock at like 6:10 in the esplanade where we had a popup tent and some chairs and some supplies and from dawn Wednesday to dawn Thursday we were in one place giving out hugs for 24 hours no sleep.

Wow.

And everybody who hugged us got to make a chain like you do when you have a Christmas tree chain.

Yeah.

And you and you t Well, so we had a way to sea seal those with no moo and people got to write a wish on a piece of paper and it added to the chain. So we had love chain on our wrists I mean our our ankles and love chain we were creating and then that chain went to the temple got wrapped around the base with over 2,000 chains and was pieces and parts were read by tribal elders in the area and from around the world. We had 20 elders read it. So we did a massive love gift just to show people what hugs meant. to us and what they should mean to the world. And uh it was Yeah. Like 24 straight hours.

Wow. That's incredible. I mean,

would you like just do hugs at your camp too or like just wear?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm up early, so by six o'clock, I was out at 3:00 in Esplanade hugging all the people all crusty and tore up walking from 2:30 wherever back to the rest of the world. Yeah. Uh they weren't the best huggers, man. They weren't about it. They were they were they've been up all night.

Yeah. I was kind of My next question was like are there certain times of the day or night better or worse for you know for hugging people or you know

I think I think anytime you know not really. I mean we had pretty consistent hugs that whole 24 hours. And I remember many nights we would set up a uh some lawn chairs and some bull and my bullhorn and just open up the hug bar where we had a well two speaker lawn chairs and a beer cooler and just tell people, you know, whatever kind of hug you need, we got it. And they would drive out on bikes and they would stop their bikes, fall off them sometimes and run over and we had anywhere from, you know, positive and lifeirming hugs. All we do creepy hugs on the end. We had like five people. We do that stick for hours. So, I don't think there's a bad time at Bernie man for hugs anytime ever.

Did you have like a menu of like what type of

No, no, we just we all we have kind of announced what kind of hugs we had. You know, one one of my friends had love you brono homo hugs. Those were good and the creepy ones were really creepy and just whatever people needed. You know, what kind of hug you really want? Well, I want this kind of hug. All right, I got that. Well, we'll we'll provide.

It was just pure easy interaction. Didn't take anything but a bullhorn and a beer cooler.

So, would it just be like someone coming for a hug and just would they like kind of launch into like their story or like what's what's going on?

Yeah, you never know. Someone would launch into a story about why they wanted it and everything about them. Someone would just stop and give you like a quick 5-second hug and you hop out hop back on a bike. You know, we we we didn't give it any value. It was just like we put out the offer. Let's see what the universe gives us. But we meet some incredible people, incredible stories. We and talk about and gifting my God, you know, like rather giving her these crazy beautiful hugs, changing their perspective, they're just biking down the pia and then suddenly they're five people and you know Kumbaya forever and we just hear the most beautiful stories like here's my little thing I brought from Colorado. Here's the thing that I I brought a bag full of these from Malaysia. They mean this and that and it's just magic. You know, you don't need a big art piece. You don't need fire. You don't need a DJ.

Yeah.

It's wonderful when you do, but you just need the intention and the love and it's already present. It's already waiting for you.

It's a target-rich environment.

Oh yeah. It's amazing. So, uh, wow, that's that's incredible. Well, this brings us to our next question, like your background. So, where, uh, where did you grow up? Like, what's your what's your story? How did you, uh, between like growing up and getting to Burning Man or

Oh, wow. Quick one. Well, I've been an artist my whole life. Grew up in Texas, hence the name or the moniker they gave me. And, uh, but grew up in small town Texas and was always the weird kid, um, the weird artist. kid. Once the uh once the new wave came through, I was already deep into soul at an early age. You know, weirdly in a town where the only soul was on the radio much you could find at the record store. That was my jam and was going to black and gay clubs at the age of 15 and my grandmother's Buick and um so grew up around music that way but was always an artist as well. So had a lot of the new wave as um formations early on uh late early 80s all the way through the early 90s and then um went through one marriage and then and this at the start of another we were in Denver well also been in sales my whole life marketing gregarious outgoing all that love people so that you know Bernie man was a natural fit in that way uh but be we were we were living in Denver and the Riyard Dogs Road Show came through Denver. I don't know if you remember back then. That

sounds like your era though. 96.

Yeah.

Basically um a group of trouidors, burlesque, rock, music, fire, magic, inside and outside of the audience, pure performance art, immersive theater. Um they came through Denver and we learned about them from Boing Boing and Squid List. And so we were already kind of looking into the culture because we might be going out to San Francisco in a few months. So, let's, you know, really get learned about it. And we're introduced suddenly to Burning Man. And these people came through Denver with basically the entire Burning Man experience in a road show inside of a theater with about 200 people for about three hours and no breaks. Just go go performance, performance, story, lore, whatever it is, just weaving it all in and out of the crowd. And at the end of that, we looked at each other and said, "I don't know what we just saw, but we want for that. We That's it. That's us. My god. Like, thank you for letting us see this and feel this and experience this. And within a few months, we had a chance to go out to San Francisco on some work with the internet and the small car technology and hybrid engines and this wizard guy. And we got pulled in like the yard dogs were leaving a trail of that energy just like lighting up whoever they could as they traveled from one end of the country to the together and we just got left in the wake and we were turned on by it and you know that energy pulled us into the city, pulled us into Sacon, pulled us to the community and I I can see it as plain as day now. It's plain as day because people would come up to me and other artists I've talked to with, you know, hey man, I I was so glad to meet you because you're the reason I came to Bernie man because I saw your art because I saw your video. Because I read about your project and that inspired me to do ads. Like I met a guy who was on a twotory kids red trike. He built one that was two stories high. Has steering wheel has steps up the back arch of it to get to the seat he was in. He can sit eight people across the back of it. He was wearing a little kid's beanie hat propeller with some suspenders. And I stopped him when I saw this magic creation being one of these guys. And I said, "Man, what in the world is this? What? What's your name? Why is this here?" And it turns out had seen Bernie man videos and seen all the art cars and he builds custom cars and dragsters and he said I ain't never seen his Indiana or somebody man I never seen nobody with a with a red track out here I thought I'd build one like

there you go that's

you're in

Larry yeah you're in the cult tell Larry you're in the cult you get it

thank you so um yeah that's how it happened really quick But you know my life was always an artist um photographer the well since I got married I was a photographer before that graphic designer for 25 almost 30 years been on the internet since 1,200 or slower modems and you know way back when Apple was still a one piece unit. It was black and white and designer back then and so everything that I I built up to over 30 40 years of life was this became encapsulated into Bernie man. I was into cosplay performative things.

Yeah. So, how did you get into the whole like Stormtrooper thing? What was

really weird? Um I was back in the 70s as video will prove there were people who lined up for Star Wars in front of the movie theater, right?

I remember.

You're you and me. You remember?

And we we'd be out there for what, one, two, three days a week with a tent and a DND book and some dice and your mom packed you some lunch and you had some Cokes and some lawn chairs and a s***** little pillow along with a sleeping bag. And you did. You lived it. That's how you found others like you. You know, the other nerds, the other the others, the famous others.

So, well, episode one was coming up and, you know, terribly ultimately episode one came out was coming up and everybody was waiting for it, including me. And I said, "Well, I'm gonna be in front of the theater again. You know, let's do this again. I'm old enough. I can I can get time off of work. I can work remotely with a phone a little bit. Let's do this. And I said, "But if I'm gonna do this, I want to do it right." So I said, "I want a Stormtrooper suit. I know they exist. I've seen pictures. Dang it. I know they're somewhere." And after a few months of searching, I found a guy who trusted to sell me one who built them in the garage in LA, the supplier. And uh I wore it for a week in a tent with a C and wore it in front of the theater for a week and did T and turns out TV came by, did TV interviews, newspaper, radio, everyday radio quizzes, and worked with the Stormtrooper with the listeners asking Star Wars trivia and other geeky crap. Um, worked with Pizza Hut and others to feed the crowd so they could get publicity and had ultimately had about 8 800 to,000 people in line behind me and I was like the ring leader in a Stormtrooper suit and

and I was wore it all summer every I got, you know, flea, you know, the farmers markets, events, whatever it was. And I joined a group of guys who had the same suit. It was a list serve. It was like 52 other people that had the suit. He would text back and forth, you know, email back and forth once a month on a list would come through with all the news and updates and stories. And within a few months, the guy who started that asked me to take it over because I was doing something nobody else was doing. You know, I was living it every day. I was living in it. And And that exploded over three years to fast forward to where there were 2,000 troops in 25 countries working with every charitable organization you could think of. Still are way beyond. Um raising thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars even early on. And um it kind of culminated to Comic Con 2002 I think or three where we have been skirting Lucas film with IP violations for three years. Suits, right? Everything. Um, moving even the manufacturers are moving their operations around and trying to hide away from the CNDs and and one guy got sued to the tune of millions of dollars. So,

I was in Yeah. for selling suits for for for unauthorized replicas of I think it was filmed intellectual property. And well, and that all changed after Disney, but um I was I was having lunch at the Hilton before the Comic Con started on Thursday with on the second floor of the Hilton in the cafe with Peter Mayhew, Chewbacca, Jeremy Bulock, Boba Fett, Richard LaMier, Admiral Motty, who get the force choke in the in the conference room. And um we're having lunch and two troopers come up the escalator say, "Hey, Commander Steve suite is downstairs waiting to talk to you with the editor of the Star Wars Insider magazine. I'm like, "Oh, I'm f***** now. This is great." He He caught us here with 200 plus troopers. This is great. We're going to come and make their move while we're all here. I'll be back. I maybe I'll be back. I mean, I was literally crest falling, scared to death. And but I get downstairs and he's like, "We've been watching you." I'm short-handed. We've been watching you. Yes, sir. I know. You're doing a great job. Thank you, sir. And we want you to work with us at the troops for Lucas Snow. Thank you, sir. And we want to do an interview. That's great. And he said, "I have a surprise for you in a couple of years. You've done a really good job." I I got a surprise. You'll know it when you see it. And fast forward to two or three years later, episode three is coming out with Anakin changing into Vader, that whole transition. And who did Anakin have to go kill at the end of all of the uh after all the other judge being killed? He had to go to the temple. Think forward now to Bernie man. The parallels here. They has to go to the temple and kill all the children

being the only little bit dark for the for this

in the burning man temple. Yeah.

Exactly. But yeah, but he has to go to the temple and do this thing and he has to have backup because one guy with a lightsaber can't do it all by himself. So he he executes order 66. Emperor Palpatine. Order 66 where they go and they activates all the troops and they call the 501st Vader's fist to assist Anakin on camera in cannon on the wiki on the on the Wikipedia everything and that was the gift. So what I what I end to an arc with that it's like great we we helped we helped create Vader and we killed all the kids on film that's awesome I got that going for me I got that and then so Burning Man was just the bigger you know bigger weirder scale of all that that. So that's how that happened. And then but you know when it was over it was over. It was just Lucas really Lucas wanted us to keep our helmets on in public was one of my issues. It's like if you're working with me you got to be cannon. You can't have like you know Q Burning Man parallels. All the swag we created for our polishment with patches and boy scout things like look at all I did for the Empire. Yeeha you know hospital visits you know all the charity work we're doing. He's like you can't have that. It had to be cannon plain. And I'm like, I can't live with that. We built this helmets off loving people, hugging, coming in, working with the community. I'm not keeping my helmet on. So, for official engagements, you had to have your helmet on. And I was like, well, I've already achieved, overachieved. I can stop wearing plastic every week. That's cool.

You ever thinking your two loves, you know, bringing the Stormtroopers to Birdie Man?

No, they they do. The troopers only went to Birdie Man.

Really?

Yeah. You look at up storm trooper Bernie man and you know maybe filter out AI. I tell you they've been doing it and god bless them. Yeah, there was a there's there's been a number of types. I've even seen troops out there. I've seen a couple of guys in fullon sand trooper gear.

Really?

And you know with a dive skin under it and all that plastic and about 20 pounds of No way.

Wow. That must

that's just asking for it. Yeah, you're asking for it. You're asking for khaki and a med and and a med crew to come out. But yeah, it's all Yeah, it's good for them. You know, cosplay is one of those things like Burning Man. You know, no matter what how weird you are, somebody there's 50,000 people just as weird as you and they've all got a costume.

Oh, yeah. So, yeah. I guess this brings us to my last question like, uh, so what what has been the impact or in influence of Bernie man on you?

It's just been it transformed everything, you know, over time. It really did. Um, I always I would famously tell people that I was a 225 pound ex overweight ex night nightclub promoter with a failed marriage and you know luckily found the right woman on the second one but um that you know when it got me came at the right time when I was when I was losing you know I lost everything I had to restart and it was this big pallet this canvas of opportunity that is still limitless but even to me at that point it was just unfathomable how how big that was and you know coming back, you know, speaking of the 225 pounds, coming back from Burning Man won, our first trip, we went to do raw diet for about months afterwards when we got home. Just like, let's go raw. All those hippies, let's just go raw. Dang it. Let's try that out, too. And um I got down to where my current weight and I've been this weight for since then, 190 pounds like right out of high school. It was weird. It's like the vibe in me because it got the vibe got right in some ways, in a lot of ways. is the body reacts, you know, like you know, I went from a 36 weights to a 32 33 every day. And I and and I have to fight to gain weight. So there's like I got tuned in physically. I got tuned in from all the teachings, you know? I mean, sure, there's lots of woo, esoteric b*******, VJ, techno, trance, whatever you want to that whole crowd. That's awesome. Well, war, but everything I learned my was all sper turned because of that transformation in the community as a whole being in that in that consciousness or a lot of people being in that consciousness. You know, I wouldn't have started my studies with, you know, early on with Alan Watts and listening to that or, you know, whatever they are or Greg Braden and um all the all the teachers, the ancient ones and the new ones. I I if it wasn't for Bernie man, I wouldn't have that wouldn't have sparked in me, you know, and and certain other parts of the community. that have changed me spiritually. You know, it's all because they were there concentrated in that one that little one magic bubble bubble that that arc of the house the houseion days of San Francisco, you know, the arc of community and culture and everything in makers and fire artists and everything in this one little I mean I got pulled there and only now all this time later can I see the reason. So, you know, I I count it as it has to be. It's it's siminal. It's influential. It's perfect. It had to be. And I count myself grateful every day that I got the experience to be transformed in that way when I know that's possible for others. But I know the bravery and the amount of release and the clutching and gnawing of nashing of teeth and the the artist struggles blah blah blah. But, you know, it's so worth it. So, yeah. Yay, Bernie, man.

So, where where do you go? from here.

I don't know, man. That's just it. All I can do is have a vision. I've been doing a lot of art recently in digital art and that's I can see from the reactions I've had from that locally that that's definitely a path and I need to explore it and lean into it. So that means giving up Burning Man and this you know like this I've realized recently in the last week like not realistically because I know I want to be realistic, but unrealistically like I'm done. I have an arc, you know, from 06 to 20 I mean to to now. I mean 2021 when Bernie man got cancelled. 2020 when it got cancelled, Danger Ranger co-hosted cancelled man with me as an event on Facebook. I mean I got Danger Ranger. He said, "Yeah, I'll do that." I mean, that's one of many arcs and like if what else can I possibly do at Burning Man? at this point, nothing would get in the way. I mean, let let it let it transform and let it evolve and do what it's going to do. So, I've decided that, you know, I don't know. I'm letting go of Bernie, man. I know the hugs are powerful, but I think that's someone it has to just hit you just right. It's not one of those last movements that people are just going to embrace, quote unquote. And I've been out there thousands of hours hugging. People aren't just going to pick this up and go pick up a sign real quick. I I don't think it's going to happen. I know it's a personal crusade. So, I'm really just trying to and this is tough as you know, just being in a state of not knowing and just going every day and just working and doing your thing and knowing that it's going to happen again because Burning Man came after Stormtrooping and the nose came from Burning Man and then Hugs came along. It's like every time it's something magical that I don't expect. So, there's no way I can outthink this quantum thing. There's too many possibility. Who the f*** knows?

Yeah. Well, it's all journey, you know. But I I think there is a definitely a certain kind of like life cycle to Burning Man. I mean, I don't know. Some people think it's like, oh, it just just continually just keep going like forever and never. I mean, there clearly are some people for like 30 years, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They get really into like, oh, every year, year after year. Some people it's like a bucket list. I did it like once or three years. But

I don't know. I mean, I keep coming back to this whole like graduated thing, you know? It's just like you're an alumni

like you it it's not,

oh, I'm done with that. I'm putting it behind me. But it's like kind of like graduation. It's like

I got I learned what I needed to learn. It's like I got my diploma and now I'm taking it out into the real world and, you know, putting you know, learning your lessons and putting your stamp on.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sure, you can go out and have a lot of fun, have a lot of new sto stories and it'll happen every time you go because once you know how to make that happen and you're in the vibe of it, it's great, you know, like I got to the point where I didn't have any plans. There was no more f*** your burns, you know? It's like I don't have any plans. It doesn't account. I I don't I don't I don't accept that anymore. I don't have a plan. It's just going to go. I'm just going to let things happen as they happen. And that was the best times. But um yeah, I like I like what you said about graduated and that's fine. You know, there There there's something after graduation. I mean, I got there was the funny one last story speaking of graduating because I felt like I graduated 2017 just before 2017 Burning Man. Uh there was I used to scan uh San Francisco Craigslist for Burning Man, you know, like it's getting it's getting close to what's available for sale. Maybe something I can use. I can save some money or help somebody out. Great. And one thing came up one thing came up that said Burning Man metal. I'm like, "Bro, man, metal. Okay, is that a pendant? Like, what what's going on here? Let me go see what this person's got." And I clicked it and I It was a metal from Tai Eckley, the metal guy. He makes 250 a year. It turns out.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So, I tell him that story because the year before Burning Man in 2016, there was we were out with some friends on an art car cutting it up, making things uncomfortable for people. in the uh VIP 9:00 wherever they were parked out there in their encampments dressed as clowns on an art car. And after we were doing this for about two hours, we were cutting across Playa and a guy in a big red Egyptian uh Arabian shoe slipper car pulls up in front of us and stops us. And a guy's inside with looking like the old grizzle cowboy with a red shirt and a white hat and he has two friends with him and he proceeds to come out and pull out a scroll and reads us how we're winning an award basically for holding true to the values of Burning Man, creativity, f******, coffony, blah blah blah blah blah. And he opens up a little box, a velvet box, and inside is a metal, a metal with a with a ribbon and everything, claw baked enamel, and gives it to our driver. And we're all inside the art car about seven of us and looking around the outside like wow what is going on and the woman one of the people in the car OG burner said that's the metal guy I've never even seen him in life but I heard he was I've in 10 years I've never seen this guy now and he's gone and I learned later he's been doing it for a long time his name is Tai Equity he's online e kle y ty is the first name and we were gifted a medal he makes 225 or so a year well fast forward to I found the one on Craigslist before a Bernie man the next year. And I called the guy to get his number and I say, "What's the story?" He tells me he found it from he found it at an estate sale. He knew it was interesting and important. He didn't know what it was. I told him the story. I said, "Look, I want it, but I have to earn it. I have to know from Tyley that I can have it. I'm not just going to buy this medal from you and run around with a medal, a 2012 Burning Man medal on." He said, "Okay." I said, "I'll call you after I get back from Burning Man." No doubt. No true story. I walk we're walking from our camp out behind us to some other camps on 3:00 in the artery and I'm joking about man maybe we'll meet Tai this year I can't wait something's going to happen 50 feet are ahead of us he turns the corner in the art car in a little red shoe with his friends in the car and I stop him I said I was just talking about you I tell him the story about get finding metal and all he said well you need to go get that son this is magic you need to go get that right after the playa. And I said, "That's all I need to know. Thank you, Mr. Reckley. I I I've earned my medal and I went and I got the medal from that guy." But and that's Yeah. So incredible.

It's just stupid.

Well, thank you so much. Uh this has been a wonderful interview.

Has it? I appreciate it.

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