EP 39 Debi "Crackerjack" Mansour

Episode 39 with Debi “Crackerjack” Mansour is out now! Meet Debbie "Cracker Jack" Mansour, a dedicated leader in the regional Burning Man community. The conversation explores the tension between Black Rock City purists and those who find deep meaning in smaller events, ultimately arguing that being a "burner" is defined by embracing the culture and ten principles rather than geographical location. Mansour recounts her transformation from a sheltered background to a "neurospicy" community leader, highlighting her creative contributions such as mandatory virgin tours and "complimentary heckling." Her journey illustrates the life-changing impact of radical expression and the vital role of volunteer leadership in sustaining the global network of regional burns.

Being a burner is so much more than just going to Black Rock City, there is a whole world of global Burners. Debi’s story is one of the first dives into this world, please give it a listen and learn how far Burning Man culture is spreading.

https://portalburn.org/

http://cosmicburn.org/

https://www.notyourmominc.org/

Please visit https://shadowoftheman.buzzsprout.com/ for all of the details and links.

Email shadowofthemanpodcast@gmail.com if you want to be a guest or if you have any concerns about the show.

Please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, it REALLY helps the show to even appear in search results.

Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Forget about it. That Andy. Today our guest is Debbie Crackerjack Mansour. Is that how you pronounce your name? Yeah, that's how I pronounce it.

Sure. So, you go by Cracker Jackack.

I go by Cracker Jackack or people that know me well have shortened Cracker Jackack to CJ.

Ah, okay.

So, my clo some of my close friends also call me CJ.

Yeah. So, months ago, I heard you were on uh um Accuracy 3 podcast. I guess they had someone who went around to what was was one of the New York like regional events and they were like interviewing like various people and this part you know because my show is all about like how Bernie man has like influenced people like over the years and and clearly early on like you know like when when in 1990 when they first went to the desert you would probably have to say 100% of the people were from San Francisco.

Right. Right.

So like the entirety of Bretty Man was about people from San Francisco going to the Black Rock Desert, you know, and then slowly like over time, you know, like people started coming from like here and there and then somewhere around the end of the '9s, uh, you know, the regionals kind of started up, you know, people started going back home and like bringing back there and then and then now like the more last 10 20 years of Burning Man has been more like the growth of the regionals and so there's been so many people that have experienced Burning Man that have never been to the Black Rock Desert. So,

yeah.

Yeah. And and so that's I've been wanting to to interview more people like that. And so, you're you're probably the first in in my series. Hopefully, I want to interview a lot more. Um cuz like one of the questions I have is that like say you've been going to like a a regional event for 12 years and then you go to to Burning Man like the plier the Black Rock Desert for for three years. That makes to a 15-year burner, right?

That's what I think. That's what I think. Although, I've had I've definitely had people tell me that if you've never been to Black Rock City, you cannot call yourself a burner

really.

And I highly disagree with that because I think being a burner is about embracing the culture and the ethos and, you know, understanding and trying to embody the 10 principles and, you know, joining that community. So, I definitely disagree with the idea that you can't be a burner if you've never been to Burning Man.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's silly.

So, where does your journey begin with the whole Burning Man world?

Well, your introduction was about people who have never been to Burning Man, but my very first burn ever was Burning Man.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

That's how I found that's how I found it. So, um

uh my very first burn was was cargo cult in 2013.

I was 44 years old and um I had lived in Sacramento uh for 14 years. I left Sacramento in 2004. And that whole time I didn't know anything about Burning Man.

Didn't have no no clue.

And then in 2013 a friend of mine from Sacramento My buddy Jay was like, "Hey, I've got this extra ticket. Do you want to come to Burning Man?" And at the time I was living in New York in Rochester, New York. And I said, "Yeah, why not?" And I flew out to Sacramento and Jay and I drove into Burning Man. And uh I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Didn't know anything. Didn't know what what it was. Didn't understand the principles. Did had no clue. And so I, you know, arrived on Playa. I was greeted. I jumped out of his truck. I whipped off my shirt. I, you know, got down into the Play. I did, you know, a a dust angel,

right? I rang the bell

and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is crazy. I've never, you know, I've never done anything like this in my life." And um and I had a great time. We camped uh we camped I want to say we were on I and 7:45 so we were kind of in the outskirts a little bit

which is like open camping.

Um no we camped actually with a guy who worked in the accounting office at Burning Man.

Oh

yeah. He has since passed away. I think I want to say his name was DJ maybe. Um but my buddy Jay it was him and his brother and his his sister-in-law and a couple other people and this guy DJ and the camp was decorated with penguins. I I don't know. It was it was like a theme camp except we didn't do any activities really that I recall. There was no organized, you know, events or anything. So, um Jay and I just kind of spent the whole time wandering around. It wasn't his first time at Burning Man, so he was sort of my sherpa. And you know, He took me around. And uh we did a lot of bike riding. I remember that. And um I got naked. I realized that I liked being naked. I I ran around Burning Man wearing nothing but flip-flops.

Wow.

Um for many days. And you know, people talk about, oh, ply of foot and oh, the dust and this and that. And I it didn't bother me. So I just ran around in flip-flops and And um I you know what I do recall distinctly is I loved picking up loop. I don't know why that leave no trace principle just really struck a chord with me. And I remember t you know walking around naked in flip-flops picking up people's you know batteries that had fallen out of their um lwire lights off of their bikes over the night and whatnot. And one day I pack I packed a bag up of m walking from where I was to center camp to get coffee. And I got to center camp for coffee and the bag that I had been collecting all the moop in was full. And I thought, man, I really want to like keep picking up mope cuz this is such a good thing, right? And I kind of was looking around. Where could I empty this bag, right? Like there's no garbage cans, right? Where do I where do I put this bag of MOP?

Empty it out. so that I can collect more moo off of the streets. And I wandered into this camp that upon reflection must have been like some organizers or something cuz it seemed to me like it was kind of behind some walls.

Huh.

Okay. Um, so I I don't know where I wandered into. Somebody pointed me and went, "Go check in there." And I wandered in. And I walked in and Somebody was like, "Can we help you?" You know, like, "What are you doing here?" And I was like, "Um, I was just looking for a place that I could empty this this um garbage." And they were like, "Excuse you."

Yeah. Where's your question?

Who are you? Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, "No, you take your garbage back to your camp." And, you know, they kind of scolded me a little bit. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, wait, wait. This is n't my garbage. This is like all the moop I've been picking up walking here from my camp. And they were like, "Oh, okay. They let me

still go take it back home."

They let me empty my little poop bag into their into their camp garbage and they were very nice. And then they sent me on my way. And uh yeah, that I I remember that distinctly because I was looking for a garbage can and they were kind of like, "Who are you?" And Where did you come from?

Yeah.

And what what do you think this is?

Was one of the first questions just like it's your first time here?

Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I might have been I might have uh might as well have been walking around with a giant sign that said Virgin Burner.

Well, it's it's funny because um I was doing this project on the Playa this year called uh the Shadow Shorts where I was basically I I set myself up between like the man and the temple and I was like interviewing people like you was doing like little five minute interviews and you know but the same theme as my show it's like what's the Bernie man's impact on you and

in order for there to be some excuse me there be some sort of impact it's like there has some sort of time has to pass right like you can't just be like oh I just came through the gate and here I am it's like well how is it made an impact you like I don't know I've been here for like a half an hour you

right right I had to kind of like me and my brother were like looking around and all these people going by and we had to be like that one. No, no, that I don't know like and then we just at first we were just like any person that came by we would just kind of like hey you want to do this interview and we we quickly began started this like sort of profile that we kind of learned. It was like there were a couple of factors you could tell like who's like just looking like if someone's like a first year burner or not. It was like the first one was like they're too clean.

Uhhuh. Like

it's like anyone who's like dirty, you know, dusty or like looks like they're wearing old clothes or whatever. It's just like ah they they've been around, you know. It's like definitely someone who's like it's like looks like they just sort of like, you know, put on some fresh set of clothes and it's like everything's clean. It's like

no.

And then also there was like a certain kind of like like uniform like people had, you know, like if it was like oh are you the the sparkle pony? Are you like the rave kid? You know, do you have like the the sparkly captain's hat or the fur jacket.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've never done the captain's hat. I've never done it,

you know. But if you look up if you try to Google, you know, Burning Man outfits, that's the first thing that comes up is the sparkly captain's hat.

Yeah.

You know, it's it's the it's the iconic Burning Man uniform.

Well, what's his name? Mark Day. Like on on social media, like he does these like AI like videos and like pictures of things and

Oh, yep. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember was it last year, a couple years ago, he did something. It was like a was kind of like action figures and so there these like it was like box sets, you know, and so each one was like the the different like archetype, you know,

right? The different Bernie band archetypes.

Yeah. Like the pony and like the raver and

Right. the DK chaser. Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

the crusty old burner who's uh burnier than them. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there's definitely, you know, generational change in Burning Man. I mean,

something that I noticed that like looking at the census, like if you kind of go back and look at like each different particular year, like I mean, clearly like the earlier you go, like the population was kind of doubling every year. So, it's like by just statistically half the people have to be going for the first time, right? if it's doubling like at least

could be 75% who knows you know like

not everyone keeps going back every year and then the other thing was that it seems like quite a lot of people are like like the biggest bulge is kind of like the 20s and 30s

like perpetually like over the years I mean maybe now

in Brett man's like almost 40 or something you know I think that it's like it's starting to like tend a little bit like older you know but Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting to think about that half the people would have been new because nowadays um you know the regional network they kind of have this um benchmark that 30% virgins is probably a good place to be.

Right? 30% or less virgins is a good place to be. Um and you know I don't know who came up with that but that is sort of

what's the reasoning behind that?

I think it's I think it has to do with um you know acclamation to the culture and um if you don't have enough experienced burners then uh it's hard to maintain that that culture right because there's not enough people that know what they uh what they want um Burning Man to be like.

Yeah.

And then get all the you know not that new ideas are bad but when you get too many people who don't know what the norms are then you know your culture kind of gets very watered down.

Yeah. Yeah.

And back in those early days, the culture was still, you know, developing probably every year, right? Like it, you know, it was it was still in so much flux.

Yeah.

So, principles and all of that.

Yeah. So, you didn't really know much about Burning Man. Your friend had a ticket and was like, "Oh, just come on out." I mean, that's pretty adventurous. I mean, like, you really had heard nothing about it or kind of

I mean I had a vague very vague idea. I had never been to any kind of a music festival or anything like that. Um you know I grew up very conservative um very sheltered um and yeah it was it was a big adventure for me. Um you know I I was not exceedingly welltraveled. Um not that I'm well traveled now but I would like to think I'm a little bit a little bit more worldly. Um yeah. So um so yeah, he he just invited me. I remember um that I definitely was a bit of a spectator. You know, I def I embraced the pick it up moo. Um I I didn't drink um very much and I didn't do any kind of drugs. Um so I was pretty straight laced and uh you know I I just did a lot of spectating because I wasn't really comfortable just kind of jumping in and participating in all the things that were happening.

So, I kind of stood back and I watched other people having a lot of fun.

That's a good way to go about it. I mean, this is your first year and you're kind of going into it not knowing. Although, I do have to say like, "Oh, you didn't jump into it." But you did get naked.

But I Yes, I did get naked. You know, people thought people were surprised that it was my first burn. Um,

somebody said to me when I was walking through center camp naked. They said, "I like your outfit." And I said, "Oh, this old thing. I've had it forever."

No, no, cuz I remember like early on did Burning Man like before there was like, you know, there's no like Wi-Fi or there's no cell thing like

like most people would be naked and it would always be some sort of form of like body paint, you know, and

y

but then as like years went by and there was then there was more connectivity, I I I would notice that there would be like less and less like public nudity and so this basically cuz like everyone has a phone and every phone is a camera and you know I think that a lot of people were like oh I you know I don't want to be caught up I don't want the whole world to see me you know I mean

exactly

it's like you're going to this place where it's like oh I want to have like radically express myself and it's like you know I don't want I want to follow up back home

right yeah you don't want yeah you don't want that uh coming back out into the default world with you

yeah but I I definitely caught the bug in 2013. I came back to Rochester and uh I basically like ditched all my old friends. Um found the burner community um in Rochester and and it was funny because I came back and I started looking. I'm like there have to be people here that know about this, right? And so I got online back when, you know, this was back before all the other social media. So Facebook was the king

and um you know I started looking around and the first person I found was another Virgin Burner from 2013 who also went out to Burning Man with a camp that was based out of LA and she was trying to find the re the local burners and so her and I found each other.

Oh wow.

And then in I think February of 2014 um the regional contact in my area hosted a meet and greet and that's how I found the local burners. They I found the little meet and greet online. Um Pat, the other virgin, her and I, you know, went to this together and we met, you know, kind of the core local Rochester burner scene and uh and you know, they started talking to me about regionals.

They were all getting ready to go to Plaid Del Fuego. Spring Pluego.

Where's Pluego?

Pluego at the time was in Delaware.

Yeah.

Now it's in Pennsylvania. They've moved locations, but at the time it was at this um Veterans Motorcycle Club um in Delaware and they were like, "Yeah, we're going. We're going." They had a theme camp. We're all going. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's you know, that sounds amazing." At first I was like, "How can it be as good as Burning Man if it's this like tiny little regional thing, right?"

And uh and they were like, "Oh, no. I don't know. It's great. It's great. I'm like, "Okay. Um, sounds good. Uh, I think I want to go." They convinced me to go. I'm like, "Okay, I want to go. Can I camp with you?" No. Can't camp with us. We're full.

Full.

They were full. They were full. They had their placement. They only had x amount of square footage. You know, this this

space is very um premium at a lot of regional s because they're in these much smaller places, right?

And so their theme camp only had, you know, this much space and they were full. They didn't have space for me. Um, is what they told me, you know, I I kind of took it real personal and I was like, you know what, screw you guys. I'm going to make my own theme camp.

There you go.

Right. So, so I made my own theme camp. called Cracker Jackacks Booty Camp. And I brought, you know, a bunch of virgins with me. Um, other people that didn't know anything about what they were getting into and I like recruited them out of my life. Um, a woman that I work with who's still one of my very closest friends and she brought somebody and she brought her husband and you know, there was a couple other people that I found and we all went to this regional event and We did Cracker Jacks Booty Camp. We like to say we have a little something for every booty and we just did we like set up popups and we put out a couple of massage tables and we offer booty services. So you come into the camp, you can get your butt rubbed, spanked, massaged, tickled, and then we did branding, what we called branding, which was actually just like ink stamps, right? So we would like decorate your your butt for you.

Yeah.

And we would tell people, you know, you can you can leave your pants on, you can take your pants off, whatever you want to do. And people loved it. People loved it. And it was it was um it was really funny because uh I don't even remember how the idea came up to create this camp, but it was genius because it's like, "Oh, um hey, why don't everybody come over here and let me touch your butt? Right.

Well, I think it helps that you're not like like a older older man. You know, I'll

put up a sign to say butt touches. Free butt touches and people come and they're like, "Yeah, touch my butt."

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, also just just

genius.

Yeah. But just looking at you and I'm sure like I don't know who your friends are, but you know, it's like if if they were like middle-aged or older like men who like come on in here and let me touch your booty. It's like might have got a slightly different response, you know, people.

Yeah. And well, and we did have we had everybody of every gender

um working at the camp and we would usually work in shifts. And so um we would try to make sure that we had, you know, um

good representation, right, whenever we were working in case there was somebody that was just like, "Oh, I prefer, you know, this person or I prefer that person."

Yeah. Yeah.

Um Yeah.

Was that 2014, you said?

That was 2014. Yes. spring play delue 2014 my very first regional Burning Man event and then

how many people was were there I mean how big was it

um I want to say at the time it was probably around a thousand people maybe 1,200 people something like that

size yeah

yeah it's a good size um and and then I just started going you know spring and fall they did both a spring and a fall event um and started going to that. Um, and at the same time in 2014, the same people that I met at the at the um, meet and greet we're starting a new regional burn called Portal Burn. So, Portal Burn started, the first one was in 2013, but it wasn't called Portal Burn. It was called a day in the life.

And then, uh, a group of the Rochester Burners who went to that event kind of took it and turned it into Portal Burn. And so the first event called Portal Burn was in late summer 2014. And um and because I was local, they recruited me because I was, you know, I was uh excited, right? Like if you meet a new burner that really uh drinks the Kool-Aid, they're very excited. They want to help. They want to get involved. That was me. And so,

well, that's the thing with the crusty old burners. It's just like you kind of need to feed off of the energy of the young burners.

They have all the energy. Bring it.

Yeah. So, just something for my listeners who, you know, might not be in the Northeast or in other countries. So, we're talking about the difference like in New York State like the upstate versus the city, right? Meaning, so like like NYC, New York City has like a a whole scene, but you know, so upstate New York. So, portal burn is probably more like upstate New York.

Yes, Portalurn is in Western New York.

Um, and so it's it's, you know, drawing people. It is drawing some people from New York City. Um, but it's, you know, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, New York. Um, some some people from Pennsylvania might come up to it. Um, so yeah, it is it's definitely in Western New York. I don't think I don't like to say upstate because the people in New York City consider, you know, something that's like an hour north of them is upstate. Meanwhile, we're like uh you know a fiveh hour drive away, right? Like

you know what I mean? So

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. As soon as you go over one of the bridges, you're upstate, right? But yeah,

much further west.

Yeah. I actually I grew up in um Anglewood, New Jersey, like just over the George Washington Bridge. And and so yeah, I mean Yeah. Upstate was literally like you know, 20 minutes away.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Like Bare Mountain, whatever. You're like, "Yeah."

Yeah. But we're we're um we're out in Western New York. Portal burn is. And um and so that started in 2014 and uh you know, I was involved every year. I was in I was either you know, the health guide lead or I was the art grant lead or something. Um for many years. Um and then I was taking um Cracker Jack's booty camp also to Portalurn. Um we started uh our famous event was the annual booty pageant. So we would do a booty pageant and it was such a simple concept. I was the host or the MC of the pageant. People would we would uh the camp would actually have these like golden tickets like Willy Wonka golden tickets, right? Mh.

would um hand out golden tickets to people that we thought might want to participate in the pageant. So, we kind of made it exclusive, right? Like you had to get a golden ticket from one of us if you were interested in the pageant. And um and then I would choose three people to be judges and they're the ones that had to make the decision of who the winners were. And um and we would also uh allow bribing. So part of the pageant was that if you were a contestant in the pageant, you got your friends to bribe the judges while you were performing.

Oh, is this like a public bribing? It's just like the bribing has to be

Oh, yeah. No, totally public.

Private bribing.

No, no, no, no. So, like the judges are sitting up front, right? Uh the music comes on, the performers doing whatever, shaking their booty, trying to, you know, show that they got the best booty. And their friends all come out, you know, run up to the judges and they're like rubbing the judges feet and they're handing the judges cocktails and they're offering them chocolates and they're giving them shoulder massages and you know whatever it is

to try to like influence them that they should they should vote for you know their candidate, right? Um and I loved it because picking the candidate that's going to win or the first, second, third prize was probably incredibly difficult and so I never had to do that which was amazing for me because I'm like how would I decide, right? So I would I would make the make my friends the judges and they would have to decide and uh but you know they also got all the bribery stuff too. So

were there like different categories of booty or or like it was just like for second third place?

It was just first, second, and third. And um but I used to tell people that you know it it doesn't have to you don't have to win because your booty is maybe the the um you know most classically um attractive booty, right? Like you might have the hairiest booty that anybody has ever seen and your personality, you know, carries the the contest and so that's how you win, right? It it could be anything. So, and a lot and people would get very creative because they would know this this pageant was coming and they would have costumes, they would ask for certain songs because they wanted to, you know, have a theme for their performance. They would have decorations. They did. It was all kinds of crazy stuff. One time we had a couple, Quinton and Heidi. They're they're kind of famous uh burners out here in our region. And Quinton came out, joined the pageant as a last minute contestant. Even though he didn't have a Bullman ticket, we'd let him in. He was dressed as a Amish man. Quinton was dressed as an Amish man. Heidi was dressed as his wife. Quinton gets up onto the stage and starts, you know, taking his suspender, just d dipping it off of his shoulder, right? I mean, he's wearing a full shirt and the pants and the suspenders and the hat and everything. And he kind of is doing this like very shy little cutesy dance playing to the crowd. Dips his little suspender down like he's showing his shoulder. And people lost their minds. It was one of the best performances I have ever seen.

That is

And yeah, meanwhile, Heidi's there dressed in her acting like she's, you know,

uh, do you ever have any like people come up dressed as pirates and have like a little leather bag and be like, "Look at me booty."

You know, I've never gotten that. That's a good uh good shtick, though. Um, But we're not doing the pageant anymore. So, Booty Campus has um ceased to exist. Um I ran it for about oh gosh, maybe six years at at a bunch of different regionals. We would go to spring and fall PDF. We would do Portal burn. I took it to Wickerman a couple of times. Um which isn't a sanctioned regional. Um but is

Wicker Man?

Wickererman also doesn't exist anymore. Wickerman is now Um, what is Wicker Man called now? Summer Isle. It's called Summer Isle now. Um, and it's in uh it's like in northern No, it's in southern Pennsylvania. And um it was it's never been a sanctioned regional event, but it's a goodsized event. And um it uh it was wicker man when it was at another location and then they moved location. and they changed the name of it to Summer, but it's just a it's a regional burn. I mean, for all intents and purposes, it is a regional burn. It just doesn't have the Burning Man sanction on it.

Um, which, you know, it's not a

it's not a horrible thing. It It has all the elements of a regional burn, but the organizers don't have to fill out the paperwork.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know.

It's something because, you know, I started the Hawaii regional group in in 2002 and did it for like 10 years. And I remember like at a certain point there was uh there's kind of like a transition point because we were doing these just like these little beach burns and we would have like you know anywhere between something like 30 and 60 people and we would just like go to the beach and it was just kind of small and like you know not many people knew about it and it was kind of underground. It's like you know and it was just a bunch of friends essentially camping out and then

yeah

once you kind of passed a certain threshold then it was kind of like well Oh, you know, then like you started attracting the attention of like law enforcement and the government and this and that. So then it's like and then like people started having accidents and then people started worrying about like liability like an insurance you know and so I think if you I remember at the time thinking like if you can just kind of keep it small

you can do it forever you know but it's like but I don't know I think it's part of like the nature of Burning Man like especially with like the playa and like with so many other occasionals like there's just this just this drive to go like just bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and like the the bigger you get the more it's like you have to get official yet you have to bureaucratize. It's like you have to dot all the eyes and cross all the tees and people just like well it's it's lost that that kind of you know homegrown feeling which is like yeah that was when we were had just like 30 people camping you know like now it's like a thousand people and we have to rent out this place you know like we got to sell tickets and and guess what? There's like 4,000 people that want to go and there's only a thousand tickets, you know. So, you you know

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're facing that. Um Portal burn is facing that uh problem of how do you grow and do it in a sustainable way and the location that Portal burn is at is kind of maxing out in terms of you know how many people you can really fit there. Um and it's not the camping actually it's the parking.

Oh,

parking is what's the problem. Um because you can't fit enough cars. Um you know, because we're in we're in a in an area of the country where um if it's rainy and the camping areas get a little muddy, you can't just have all these cars driving across these muddy fields.

Yeah.

It's going to turn into a huge disaster and people are going to get stuck and it's going to ruin the land. And so you have to put cars in, you know, a parking lot. And if you don't have enough parking lot fields that are accessible that aren't going to turn into mud pits, um then you kind of have to limit how many people you can let on site. Um and you know the there's There's pros and cons to growing, right? There's, like you said, there's the more bureaucracy when you get bigger. Um, you lose some of that homegrown, but you also can attract larger art and more exciting, um, you know, performances and different things for the community. So, um, you know, it's a trade-off, but you also need more people to do more work. You need more people on DPW to set the city up. Um, you need maybe more money to to you know rent the land for a longer period

uh stuff like that. So yeah.

So what's now your position? So you went to Burning Man 2013 2014 started going to some regional events. So uh

so so you're part of like the organization now, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I

guess for Portal

so so I am currently on the board of directors for Portalurn.

Um I'm the secret to the board for the Wordleberg board of directors. I also started my own nonprofit in 2019 called Not Your Mom and um so I'm the president of the board for that and I'm getting ready to get off of that board. I'm ready to sort of pass that on. It's my baby that I created and it's time to turn it over to the community, which is a little frightening. Um but has to be done.

So what's uh not your mom about

yeah not your mom. So not your mom is a little um nonprofit that I started. We or we run a Bernal Equinox event in Rochester and we also run the cosmic burn which is in Ithaca. So um the Bernal Equinox event the RC that was in our area started it in 2016 and then in the summer of 2016 she moved to Reno. And so there was nobody to run it in 2017 and I said I'll do it. And so I kind of picked up that torch and I started running um an annual Bernal Equinox event in Rochester, a one night, you know, Burning Man party and uh did that in 2017 and 2018 and it it was very underground and then I started getting concerned Right? Because it's like, oh, there's 150 people in a warehouse in Rochester like basically raving all night and I am in charge of it and I have no legal protections. If something really bad happens,

I don't want to lose my house. I don't want to lose my retirement. You know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh, this is this is scary."

Yeah.

So, I started I basically started a nonprofit to kind of protect myself. um so that I would have an entity to run these things through. And then um so it was originally just to run Bernal Equinox. Um but then in 2020, some friends of mine started Cosmic in the middle of the pandemic. They started Cosmic. It wasn't a burn because it wasn't radically inclusive. It was an invitationonly Burning Man outdoor camping event.

And the first one probably had like 75 people and this was in early summer 2020. So if you remember anything about it, this this was prevaccines. This was when we were taking everybody's temperature. Remember the everyone was crazy about getting their temperature taken. Yeah.

Right.

And we were wearing masks and um and testing was I don't even think testing was as readily available then. Um maybe maybe it was

people even like let you get together like you're going to have a group of 70 people get together in an open field. My god crazy.

Oh. Oh yeah. But we were uh we were ordained ministers and so we were having a religious gathering.

Ah there you go.

And which is what we told the local police to get them to leave us alone. Yeah.

Okay. I'm sure they like looked around and were just like,

"Oh, it was Yeah, it was very risky. It It was It was crazy." Um, but yeah, so it was uh they did it the these guys, these three guys did it in 2020 for the first time and I was on the invitation list. So, it was invitation only. It was all seasoned burners. Um, no virgins, right? It was just this kind of you know, we need our community. This this pandemic is crazy. We're all isolating, but we need some community. And uh and we got it together. They got it together. I went and then they wanted to do another one like six weeks later. And I looked around and I was like, "You guys need help." Um and so I joined the team. I'm very I'm a freak in the sheets is what I am.

Love a good spreadsheet. I am very organized. I'm like the admin backend person that everybody wishes they could they could have.

Yeah.

And so I helped organize the second one. Um and then in 2021 we created uh a theme camp out of it and we took the theme camp, the cosmic lounge theme camp. We took to Portal burn. That was our inauguration of the of the theme camp version. And then in 2021 We had um we also had two events in 2021 and I think the first one was just another kind of uh you know invitation word of mouth kind of thing and then the second event in 2021 was when we opened it up um and we were able to have open invitation and apply for regional status because now it's you know radically inclusive um and anyone could come and we sold tickets and And then uh Cosmic's been going on ever since.

Was that like 22 or so or late 21?

It was the second event in 21. So in 2020 there was two events. In 21 there was two events. And the second event in 2021 is when we got regional status.

So it's a it's a pretty new burn. It tracks um probably around 150 people. Um it's it's set up sort of like a large um it's set up almost like it's just its own large theme camp.

So there's a center camp area and we ask everybody to just do all your stuff essentially in center camp. So there's not really theme camps per se.

Um some people have started to kind of bring a little bit of a theme camp element, but the original ones were more like the vacation burn for the burners. who normally take big theme camps to other events. So, it was like, okay, you can come to this event. You don't have to bring all your camp infrastructure. We have a giant center tent for you. We have a stage for you. We have a sound system for you. We have a a gift bar and you can just come. If you have things you want to do, do them in our big tent. You don't have to bring your own big tent. Yeah.

Right.

So, um so yeah, that's how it started, but I think it is headed in the direction of becoming a full-fledged regional with beam camps and you know

I mean do you have the space for that or

all of the trappings? Yeah, there is pretty good space. Um the location that it's at now I think we we're bringing in about 150 peopleish. Um but I could see it being as big as like maybe 400 people on that site.

You know how sites are just like we're going to go to 15,000 in and we're going to like it's going to be crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, we don't have the population um we don't have the population of burners out here to create an event that big. You know what I mean?

It's too far away from places like New York City and Philadelphia. Um and they have other things that they're going to. And a lot of burners, like a lot of New York City burners would never even set foot at a regional. They're they don't consider it worth their time.

They just like just do city events.

They they do they do their Burning Man stuff in the city and then they go out to the big burn.

So New York City, is it mostly just kind of like like decompression, pre-compression, like like big parties?

Yeah, there's like little meet and greets, weekly things, and there's but there's no um there's no like actual sanctioned regional event based out of New York City or or close to New York City.

It reminds me of like Boston because I think Boston has a lot of like meet and greets and things and I'm not maybe they do like a decompression or whatever, but their big thing is Firefly which is actually Vermont.

Yeah.

Actually, I went to school in Vermont and my my wife like grew up there and so I go back there almost like every year and I remember for many years just being like my friend Amy Bunker like she was the regional contact for Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine for the longest time because it was like there wasn't really anybody. And I remember like in Vermont it was just like

there were like scatterings of burners here and there, you know, but like no real Vermont burners or Vermont burn and then it's like well here are these Boston people coming up to Vermont and it's like

Right. Right.

Hey, like what about Vermont? Come on. You know, like but

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean we we definitely um get burners out of New York City and it's actually kind of funny the the portal burn board um is shifting more and more to people that are based in New York City because I think we've kind of cycled through all the local people that had enough time and energy to be in leadership

and we've kind of exhausted our pool which is really interesting.

Um it's like you know how do we get some new young for people coming in um that actually want to step up into leadership that are from our local area.

Yeah.

And yeah, it's, you know,

it's got to be sustainable. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. So, um you know, and I'm I'm burning out. I'm like, I'm getting exhausted. I've gone two boards and uh you know, helping to organize three different events and I'm I'm just like, okay, I something's got to give, you know. So, I'm finishing up my term on the portal board at the end of this year and then I'm gonna I'm actively working on my exit strategy out of the not your mom board. Um and I'm going to turn over, you know, those events to the next gen of leadership and I'm I'm looking forward to it, but I'm also um

nervous.

It's also like it's the end of an era, you know what I mean?

So, I don't know. I I'm not gonna walk away from any of these events. though I plan to very involved, you know, I plan to do special projects for them because there's never enough time to get all the things done, right? There's always stuff that that it's like, oh, wouldn't it be great if we could just get this this handled better and nobody nobody ever has enough time to really devote to get, you know, like a special project done. Like I want to work on uh this sounds silly, I want to do signage for Portalurn. I want to be their sign lead. I want to get all the signage, you know, squared away and look good and usable for year after year, consistent, you know, clean. So, yeah,

it's like identifying a need and then there's just, you know, you come up with like, hey, I'm I'm kind of famous for like coming up with ideas and it's like, hey, how about this? Everyone's like, yeah, that's a great idea. How about you do it?

Yeah.

I'm like, surely someone other than me could do these things, too. You know, but Yeah. And you can get it going and then other people can take it over.

Listen, being a theme camp uh running a theme camp and being on the board, I have learned um because I've never wanted to be in, you know, management, right, in my in my outside life. But I've I've learned that when people come up with really cool ideas, my response to them usually is something like, um, that's a fantastic idea. I want you to let me know how I can support you as you're implementing that.

How can I help you?

How can I help you?

You do it yourself.

A reality.

Yeah. Exactly.

I'm not doing it for you.

Yeah.

I want you to do it.

Another thing that um a frequent kind of truism and all these things that and something here in Hawaii we're kind of having this problem of everybody wants to go to the party but like not very Many people want to like throw the party.

Yeah.

You know, like

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I I mean, I remember years ago when I was doing stuff like I would be like, "Hey, anyone want to do a thing?" And they'd be like, "Yeah." I'm like, "What do you want to do?" And they're like, "I don't know." You know? So, I'm like,

"Okay." You know, I would just kind of just make it up just out of the out of I say out of the top of my head and out of the back of my ass, you know? How about like this such and such a date such and in such a time. How about we just come out and this make up some crazy thing and they're just like,

"Okay."

Yeah. I'm like,

"Oh, yeah. It's it's cats all the time and somebody's got to be the one that says, you know, this is what we're doing. This is where we're meeting. This is what time we're meeting. Here's what I need you to bring. You know, somebody's got to do all that organization." And um the people willing to do that are kind of few and far between.

Yeah. And then there's always like, you know, some Johnny come lately, you know, where like actually at the meeting and they're just like well I didn't want to do it today or I don't want to talk about this you know like like where were you when I asked people you know it's like what do you want to do you were silent and now you know as we're doing it you know like

yeah

then it's like okay well for next time like I will write down well you will be involved and and we'll do this in advance

yeah

yeah it's it's interesting being uh in a leadership position um I've been accused of being a cult leader

Uhhuh. Ah,

I've been accused of being in charge of the mean girls club that you know I didn't like somebody so everybody else didn't like that person.

Um I've been you know and I'm like what I that's I I have nothing to do with it.

Primadana egotistical

you know first of all I you know I'm not a cult leader. Um I don't think that people follow my every word. Um, if they do, they're crazy because I don't know what I'm talking about, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't I I realize that I do have, you know, it's it's interesting to realize that you do have some sway or some influence on people. Um, especially when it's not something that you really looked for, but you kind of realize that that has somehow happened.

Mh. um and that you know you maybe have to have to pay attention to what your influence might be. Um yeah, it it is it's an interesting thing to find yourself in a in a in a quote unquote leadership position.

Yeah.

Yeah. Part of that um I've used to my advantage though. Um so I I have made myself somewhat famous on purpose just by pretending that I'm famous. Right. Like, right. If you if you tell people, basically pretend to people that you're a big deal, they will think that you're a big deal and then all of a sudden the next thing you know, you're a big deal.

Um, so this is what I did. I did something called the mandatory virgin acclamation tour.

I started an event that I would do at regional um Burning Man's and I even at events that I had never been into. So, I did this at um the first Wicker Man I ever went to. I put in, you know, an event. I scheduled this event called the Mandatory Virgin Acclamation Tour. And basically, uh I would just say on the Facebooks and on the social medias, I'm like, "All virgins have to attend this. This is mandatory." I would just like make up, right? As you and I know, nothing's mandatory, right? It's there's no such thing.

But if you're first time or you don't know that you might think it really is mandatory. And I would get great attendance and I would get all these virgins together. I would go through the 10 principles with them. Um, but we would talk about the 10 principles and I would say, "Name a principle." So, Andy, let's play the game. Name a principle, Andy.

Uh, gifting.

G. Oh, gifting. Yes, you're very close. The actual principle is mandatory gifting. Name another principle, Andy.

Radical. inclusion.

No, it's it's that's close, but it's actually mandatory radical inclusion.

So, I would say all the all the all the uh the uh principles were mandatory. And then I would also talk to them about portaotty etiquette. So, I had a whole section on portaotties and like the engineering that goes into a portaotti and why it's important to keep the lid closed and what you should do if you don't want to sit down and you know, all this stuff. And then would take them around on a little tour and we would walk around to different theme camps and I would organize this ahead of time with the theme camps. The theme camps knew that the virgins were coming on the tour and we would get to a theme camp. They would maybe have, you know, like a a special shot that they were doing or they had stickers for the virgins or something and I would ask, you know, one of the people in the theme camp to talk to the virgins for two minutes, give them some advice and I would make up these ridiculous introductions to people, right? So, I would walk into some theme camp and I would be like, "This theme camp, you know, was an original theme camp from Burning Man from 1996, and this person knew Larry Harvey personally." And, you know, I would make up all these outrageous things about people that none of it was true, right?

But the virgins don't know that.

That's awesome.

And then the other thing I would do with my virgins, I was I would assign them play plya names. So, you know, I'd be like, "Does anybody already have a player name?" And most people didn't have a pia name. And so, I'd whip out this big thing of sticker name tags, right, where I had written all these like goofy ply names. And I would pretend to very carefully, you know, select the player name that would most work for the person standing in front of me if they said they wanted one. And I would peel off this sticker and I'd give them a ply name and, you know, stick it on them. The my name is Now sticker. And um I bet you I've got I probably have at least 20 people out there that have a play a name that I had gave them um through my virgin mandatory training.

And I bet they're very proud of that, too.

Yeah. And for whatever reason, their play name stuck. You know what I mean? Like a lot of them, they just never stick, right? We all know how ply names could.

Like for you, it's kind of like the the fridge magnet thing, right? You know, it's just it's like I have all of these different words. It's like I'll take this one and like

that's you.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's your That's your new play name. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. Got a bunch of bunch of people out there running around play name they got from Cracker Jackack during the Mandatory Virgin Acclamation tour.

Wow. That's awesome. It's funny cuz like what you're talking about the whole like fake celebrity thing just I don't know every once in a while like when I'm doing these interviews I kind of always think of just like these ideas for just crazy theme camps and like the fake celebrity camp. Yeah. Like, well, you just put you just put that's the title. It just says celebrity camp. And people like, what's that? He's like,

this is where the celebrities are. And it's like, really? You know, and it's like, yeah, yeah, but they're all in disguise,

you know? Like, can you come on up to have like a mass? It's like, hi, I'm Channing Tatum.

You'd be like, I'm Angelina Jolie. You know, it's like,

oh my god. Like, oh yeah,

that sounds amazing. I love it. I love it. All right. Yeah, sounds good.

So, let's see. We got to move on to the second question now. We We'll briefly go into like a So, what's your your background? Where'd you grow up? Where did Little Cracker Jack uh grow up before Bernie M?

Yeah. Um I grew up in Toledo, Ohio.

Okay.

Um I moved out of my house when I was 17. I eloped and got married when I was 18. Um, we moved to California when I was 20. I got divorced when I was 22. And, um, like I said earlier, I lived in Sacramento from maybe about 1990 to about 2004. I didn't know anything about Burning Man. Um, but a lot of that is because um, my family is very concerned conservative.

Mhm.

Like

like Tea Party conservative.

I mean it it is possible to live in California and not know about Burning Man. I mean that is

Yeah. Yeah. And uh Yeah. And um and you know I had a I I mean I don't want to you know bore people with my terrible childhood but I had a pretty s***** childhood um and you know not a lot of guidance and was really just sort of flailing around as an adult. trying to figure out um you know how to make it. Um and uh and yeah, I just I you know, I was very much um I was very much in that sort of um oh, what would you say? Like trying to kind of keep up with the Joneses, you know, decorating my house from the decor department at Target

kind of thing if that makes sense. Um, and I had very conservative political beliefs, although I wasn't well researched. I just was, you know, listening to and paring

going with the flow kind of. Yeah.

You know,

um, on conservative talk radio and um, you know, didn't really have a lot of um, didn't have any deep understanding of of the stuff that I was that I was spouting. Um, and so it wasn't uh, it wasn't n't until after um it wasn't until after I went to Burning Man that it actually really um changed my life and changed my views and I've done like a complete 180. Um I've become a much much more compassionate person. Um so yeah, my my um my early years are not, you know, they're very boring. They're very boring. Very boring.

The time your friend in 2013 called you up and was like, "Hey, I got this free ticket. Fly across the country and come with me." Like, were you just kind of at that point just like ready for some sort of adventure?

Yeah, I think so. I, you know, and I had known him for a very long time and I trusted him and um and so I think, you know, and I've always um even though I was trying to, you know, I say it was very boring, but I've always been a little bit quirky and never quite fit in. I've always been a little bit um a bit of an odd duck. And um and so even though I didn't really find my people until I found Burning Man, um I never quite fit in with the crowd that I was trying to fit in with prior to that.

So um you know, so there was a lot of And I'm and I'm very I'm a very ruthless person. Not ruthless root like I have no roots.

Yeah. I don't have any roots. Um so I'm very, you know, just floating in the wind out there and um and you know had was like sure let me try this.

So you were an odd duck and then you hit the pie. You you found your pond.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly it. That is exactly it. Yeah. And and it's a it's uh it's not lost on me that um that uh the Burning Man community, at least in the regionals where I am, is chalk full of neurospicy folks.

That is not lost on me. And I kind of, you know, and I and sometimes I look around, I go, "Look at all these neurosy people." And and then I go, "Oh, and guess what? You fit right in."

So maybe, you know, h What do you think?

The spicy pond.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the spicy pond. Keeps it.

Well, I guess this is kind of naturally turning into our last question of the impact and influence of Burning Man on you. So, I take it that wasn't just the first time you went to Burning Man. You've been to Black Rockck City, I should say. You've been How many times have you been back?

I've been I've been out there four times. Um, so I went in 2013 for the first time and then I didn't get back until 2017. Um, and then I went again in 2019 and then I was there for Mudburn in 23. So that was fun.

Um and yeah, and it's and every time I go out there, I end up um I've never camped with a large theme camp out there. I've always done like small, you know, just little couple people camping together.

Yeah.

You know, and um and it's interesting because I I identify as a burner. I feel like if I'm not going to if not if I'm not getting ready to go to a burn, I'm planning a burn, I'm thinking about a burn, I'm, you know, I'm like it's really um consumed my life and all my friends are burners. Um one thing that I'm actually looking looking forward to after I get off uh when I finish my term with the portal burn board is having a little bit of time to maybe do some other kind of volunt ing. So, I might meet people who aren't burners because everyone I know is a burner and I'm like, "Huh, I need to expand my friend groups here a little bit." But, um, yeah, it it so it changed my politics. Um, it taught me the importance of volunteering. Um, Burning Man taught me how to lead people, although that's been a bumpy road and I, you know, absolutely am still learning. Um, But it definitely taught me how to lead people and um and it also allowed me to express some of my creativity that I didn't necessarily know I needed to get out. Um I'm not an artist in the sense of I don't create, you know, tangible art. Um but I think of myself more like a performance artist, right? So like my

Yeah. my Virgin Acclamation tour and um and I've been hosting a variety show with my buddy Shaq and we tell dumb dad jokes in between and you know I I set up things like the no walking zone. You know my friends and I sit in the chairs and we put some cones out, right? And we put the signs up and say no walking zone on a path and then people have to get from one side to the other side but they can't walk. So they have to skip or jump or twirl or you know it's just silly stuff, right? Um so that's you know that's kind of how my expression of of artistic um you know endeavors ex reveals itself is in more of the performance and and the silliness. Um and I like to always say about Burning Man when people are asking me what is what is it? How you know can you explain it? It's it's impossible to explain right. Um

well there's always just your explanation right?

Yeah the the one thing that I find myself repeating over and over is that Bernie man is a bunch of adults who have not forgotten how to play. And I think that's really important. I think the importance of playing and enjoying ourselves. And it's not just about partying because I think partying can be a little bit different. It's about actually playing and enjoying yourself and being silly and you know um having those conversations where you come up with the crazy ideas for the next theme camp like celebrity camp, right?

Um

are we like giving you the permission to play? Cuz I mean there's clearly there's people I know that didn't weren't really allowed the space to play when they were a child. So then now as an adult on their own, they're just like they go hog wild and crazy. Now I'm going to play. And it's it's not usually very pleasant to see like you shouldn't be doing that, you know, but maybe just like a like a case, you know, where you can radically express yourself like you can, you know, it's like you you come for the party, you know, but then it kind of it's like it's like, oh, that it's the invitation, but then once the door is opened, you know, it's like, oh, you know, like I I can play or and then also like what you're saying, it's like you can develop these other senses of yourself like cuz what I'm hearing from you like, oh, like your childhood was maybe a little difficult or you know, maybe like from a political background, you know, was a little maybe stifling and so then you you you come to a more a place where you can kind of express yourself and you're around a bunch of other people who are just like yeah it's okay you know like huh like

let me explore leadership let me let me learn about this it's like let me explore my creativity and it's like it's like there's no set path it's like this is where I'm going you know it's just like let me just start walking and see where I go.

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. And um yeah and it's allowed me to um do some other creative things that weren't actually Burning Man. I mean, I say not Burning Man related, but it I would never have done it if it weren't for Bernie man. So, um, Rochester has a local fringe festival, and for several years I performed in the Fringe Festival. I was, um, Cracker Jackack, the complimentary heckler. And so, I did I did complimentary heckling. And I like to say it's complimentary and it's free because I would stand there with a megaphone dressed in like, you know, a funny costume. you know, a cute outfit or whatever. And I would heckle people, but I would heckle them with compliments. So, I would like yell compliments at people through a megaphone as they're walking by.

And um Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I would just tell people, you know, I like their shoes. I like their It would pick out a, you know, a physical characteristic that I like, but I would also tell people things like, you know, I like your smile. I like your I like the pep in your step. You know, you're having a good gym day or you're having a good hair. day or have you been going to the gym because it shows or you know your eyes

goes with that shirt.

Yeah. Yeah. Just you know I would just I would just yell compliments at people through a megaphone.

Oh that I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was it was like um I was like a a busker basically at this um French festival in Rochester and I did that for a couple of years and it was it was actually a lot of fun and you know the world is hard. Life is hard.

Sometimes we just need to, you know, we just need a little bit of levity.

Just need to not take ourselves too seriously.

Well, also I think that just kind of cuts through a lot of the divisions we might be seeing in our like social and political world, especially in United States like right here right now. Like it's like what how can people kind of cut through the chatter? for vitriol to actually kind of connect as like hey I'm a human being you're a human being like let's human beings together you know

right

like yeah so when you said like the the complimentary heckler I was imagining like you know like a comedian on stage like that was a great joke yeah that would be fun that would be fun too um some and I always had a couple every time I did it I always had a couple of people because it would be fe you know, they would describe it in the um in the guide. And I would always have a couple of people that would come to me thinking that it was heckling, like mean heckling, but that it was complimentary meaning free. So, it was like free mean heckling.

And they would stand in front of me. They would find me and stand in front of me and be like, "All right, give me the best you got." You know, and they would almost like brace themselves. And it was it was always men. Uhhuh.

And and then I would start telling them something nice about themselves and they would just kind of blink their eyes like

wait what what's happening?

And I'm like yeah no this is complimentary heckling and it would take them a minute and they would finally figure it out and I'd be like yeah and you

and you're a fantastic person.

Well that's not what I came here for.

Yeah. I came here for you to be mean to me.

Like what? the hell

my mother back

happening.

You know, like maybe you'll have to pair have a friend cuz uh pair up with you cuz like every superhero needs a super villain.

Oh yeah.

So you got to have a Nelly naysayer.

That could be a thing.

Like I love your hair. It totally matches your hoodie. Just like no it doesn't. That's pink and that's purple. Like it doesn't go together at all. Yeah,

you Nelly naysayer.

Yeah, that would Yeah, that would be that would be funny. Um, that's a good I I I'll keep that in mind.

But again, it's all having fun, right?

It is. It's all about having some fun and and just enjoying life. You know, the older I get, the more I um it's very evident how short our time here is. And

also, it's like, why be so serious? about things that are so inconsequential. Why would you look back?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely things that are worth being serious about, but um

you know, we gota we got to have some joy. Got to find some joy in our lives.

So, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Burning Man definitely taught me how to have some joy, how to not take myself so seriously. Um you know, how to not care. what other people actually think of me, you know. Um, and yeah, it got me volunteering.

It got me thinking more about my impact on the community at large,

whether that be my local burner community or whether that be, you know, the city I live in. Um, so yeah, a lot of good stuff.

It's interesting though because I do find I do find that myself and a lot of people people in the regional communities feel very disconnected from the Burning Man Burning Man community.

How's that?

Right. The So, um, many of the people that I burn with on a regular basis have never been out to Black Rock City.

Yeah.

And, you know, they don't know all the famous names from Black Rock City. They don't know all the famous art pieces. They don't know who who the movers and shakers are in the Black Rock City scene. Um, they don't know the big theme camps. They don't know the history. They don't know what the, you know, the controversies are, what the politics are. They're not, they're not in it. They're just not in any of it because it doesn't impact them because they've never been to Black Rockck City and they, you know, maybe will, maybe won't ever go. So, they're familiar with the movers and shakers in our scene. out here in the region. They're familiar with the big artists in the region. They're familiar with the, you know, the controversies and the and the politics of the region.

Um, so, you know, they're, you know, and it's interesting because then you meet somebody, right, and you say, "Hey, um, are you you're a burner?" I'm a burner. Oh, yeah. I've been going out to Black Rockck City for the last 10 years, 20 years, whatever. Oh, really? That's exciting. I've never been. Oh, well. And then you start trying to talk about stories and all of their stories are stories that somebody else who's been going to Black Rockck City would be able to relate to.

But my local regional burner that's never been out there has no idea who they're talking about, what they're talking about, doesn't have a concept of it, you know, just isn't invested in the Black Rock City community.

Yeah. Yeah.

But does that make them less of a burner?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's like I think the the question for our age in our time now, you know, that I mean, so much of the focus of like the regional network, especially lately, last 10 years maybe or so. Yeah. Has been kind of pushing outwards. People keep saying now it's like, oh, there's more regional events or people attending, you know, out there than than on the Black Rock Desert. It's like, what is the future of Burning Man? Like, for me, I think it's kind of a

what I'm hoping is it's always kind of just like a hybrid. It's like you'll have both, you know, why should it be either or,

you know? It's like I think we're with with everything.

Right. Right. Yeah.

But but yeah, there's this kind of like when we started off where it's just like, you know, if you've been at doing regional events for 12 years and then you went to Black Rockck City for three years, that makes you a 15-year burner. You know, it's like I'm sure people at Black Rock City it's like, no, this is your third year. It's like, no.

And then there's another level to this. It's like, you know, um Black Rockck VR VR, you know, the virtual reality.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's another thing people would just like, oh, some people it's like They've only done the virtual reality. They haven't even been to a regional event. And there's some people clearly just like, "Nah, yeah, you're not a burner." And but I know Athena, she was in one of my episodes and and she like veheminently would just be like, "No, you know, it's just like you are a burner." It's like it is a community. I mean, when it comes down to it, it's a community, right?

Right. Right.

You know,

when it comes down to it, it is a community. However, there are multiple smaller community ities within that big larger umbrella, right?

And so a lot of those small communities have have no I mean other than the concepts of being a burner and you know the guiding principles, they don't really have the other connections that um

yeah

you know to the other communities that are out there.

I think that's an important part of it is that the cross-pollination, right? I mean because you have just like all of these separate different groups that are just isolated from each other. Like if there was like a series of just like islands, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean it's like I guess you could say like overall like these are this these are the burning islands, you know, but you know like this one's like the North Island, this one's the east island, you know, like each slightly different, but like I think you need to kind of cross-pollinate to kind of like share the community, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I I agree. And and you know, I've seen a lot of things with um um regionals um talking about um you know having kind of guest um access, right? So like a lot of regionals because they have a limited um size their tickets sell out

and so there's you know there's some um moves to kind of bring leadership from one regional to the other regional

to just sort of see what's going on like how do you guys do it you know and that's something that I've always been interested in is like I would love to go to some smaller regionals that are, you know, in the middle of the country. You know, what's happening in Nebraska? I don't know. Is there even a regional out there? Can I go to it? Can I see how they run their stuff? You know, um so yeah, I think I think it's worth it if you can um to, you know, kind of visit other events and see what's happening there and and kind of take the best practices and

mean not just for the organizers but even like participants. I mean do you have many people from portal or cosmic like go it's like oh yeah you know it's like I've been to love burn or I've been to lakes of fire or fire or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the people that are um a lot of our burners definitely do the whole circuit right so they go to play deluego they go to constellation they go to firefly they go to nectar they go to summer islee they go to lakes of fire they go down to loveburn. Um, so there is, you know, I'm sure I'm forgetting a a regional that they're going to be like, "Why didn't you say our name?"

Yeah. Well,

but yeah. Um, so yeah, there, you know, a lot of a lot of our burners are are boopping around to all these different burns all across this coast area, the Northeast.

I don't know. I just thought of another idea like maybe what we need is something like the Girl Scouts, you know, like like the sash.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And so then each of event. It's like you get like the patch and then you kind you get to people just like really it's just like your your goal is to go around and and to sample like you know like the the jacer cheeseboard whatever you like how patches can you get and people like oh yeah I'm gonna go here I'm gonna go there I'm gonna go to nowhere in speed you know

exactly yeah that would be pretty cool I think you should organize that I want you to let me know how I can support you

another thing to do How can I support you in doing that, Auntie?

I'm in the business of giving people ideas, you know. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, well, we're gone about an hour and 22, so I know we can talk a little bit after this, but uh, thank you. This has been an amazing interview, and I'm I'm I hope that, uh, you could help me find some other people from like local regional brands who I don't really have that much like Black Rockck experience I can interview. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I would be happy. I know a ton of people that would love to talk to you.

Um I I have to say I was a little bit intimidated because of the, you know, looking through your past episodes and kind of thinking, well, wow, I don't really stack up to these people that, you know, have all been going to Black Rock City and organizing these giant theme camps and doing all this incredible work. And, you know, I feel like uh in comparison to your other guests, I feel like a tiny tiny fish in a giant pond.

Your episode's going to come out the third week of January. So, first week of January is Harley Dubois, one of the founders.

Second week, my friend Tex Burner. Uh, then then you and then Joshua Martelli. Yeah. I mean, it's just a smorges board. I want a sampler platter of all different people, you know, different experiences. I mean, because that's what we you know like burning man like there's no one definition you like everyone has a

story you know

with things

yeah well I'm going to I'm going to the burn after meeting uh in late November which is a bunch of regional organizers from across the country who get together and talk regionals um so there's a good representation there and I'd be happy to you know pass your name around and anybody's like yeah I want to be on a guess.

Yeah. Well, we'll we'll talk about that in a minute after. Okay. Well, thank you so much for the interview.

Yeah, you're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, rate, and review it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen. The more reviews the show has, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Also, please tell a friend and share this show with anyone that you think might like it. Word of mouth reach is quite far, especially in the Burning Man community. If you would like to contact us, please send an email to shadow of the manpodcast atgmail.com. You can also follow Shadow of the Man on social media at Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and YouTube. The links for all of these are available at shadowoftheman.com. Feel free to use any of these social media accounts to provide any feedback you might have. Your thoughts on the show are greatly appreciated. Thank you and see you soon for a new episode of The Shadow of the Man. 

Thank you for listening to this latest show. We have to make another one. So, got to go. Don't worry. For next month, we already have one in the can. Very soon you'll be listening to a new shadow of the man.