EP 41 Joshua Martelli

Episode 41 with Joshua Martelli is out now! Meet Joshua Mortelli, who explores the deep intersections between Burning Man subculture and his professional life as an off-road race promoter. The conversation details Mortelli’s evolution from a "digital burner" studying online forums to a seasoned theme camp leader for a collective known as Camp Zoom, emphasizing the importance of year-round community and ancestral creative draws. Central to the dialogue is the concept of knowledge transfer, as Mortelli explains how he adopted the Burning Man organization's operational protocols, safety logistics, and Leave No Trace ethics to improve the management of the Mint 400 desert race. Finally, the source transitions into a serious reflection on the future of the event, advocating for a community-led shift toward a stronger culture of consent and a move away from sensationalized, superficial depictions of the festival.

Joshua has some incredible stories and a lot of thoughtful insights especially when it comes to consent, give it a listen today.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Oh, yay. That Andy. Today our guest is Joshua Mortelli. Welcome, Josh. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure to be here, my dude.

Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, how did you first get into Burning Man? Like, what was your first year? Like, how did you, uh, what got you to go?

Yeah. Well, I actually came across Burning Man sometime in the early 2000s. I think I just, you know, stumbled across it online. And I think for me, I remember it initially it was like a visual gut punch, right? The the images looked like something between Dune and Mad Max. acts a little bit of a spiritual undertoe. Um I just had a sense that it wasn't just a party in the desert, that there was something more to it and that was in intriguing, you know. Um I come from a long line of artists and freethinkers and nonconformists um in my family. So the pull for me wasn't just aesthetic. It it kind of had almost an ancestral draw to me right out of the gate. Um, so I started digging into it. I found the old eplayia forums, which to this day I preach as like a wealth of knowledge way better than anything you'd find on social media. Um, I found all the weird, you know, subthreads and just spent like hours and and days reading trip reports and packing lists and subcultural manifestos and how to, you know, how to turn a five gallallon bucket into a swamp cooler, right? Um

because Yeah, exactly. Um because at that time, you know, living in San Diego, I I didn't have proximity to the culture the way you would if you, you know, say lived in the Bay Area. So it was sort of like baptism as a digital burner before I could make it back. Um so life for me was really full between uh 2000 and 2009. I was building a marketing group in San Diego with my brother. Um, my daughter was born in 2006 and so, you know, like a lot of folks, it was on the radar for almost a decade before I could really get free and and make it happen. But in 2009, I finally got an invitation from a high school buddy that was living up in Berkeley, um, who had been a few times and and loaded up my gear and and drove up and met him. And we came in on, uh, Wednesday of burn week. Um, super excited, very hungry for it. But what I didn't know is that he hadn't told anyone in camp that I was coming.

And we're talking Yeah. surprise. Um, and this was a really wellestablished theme camp, uh, placed on Esplanade, a very tightknit group of of folks, uh, with about a decade underneath them, you know, serious infrastructure. Um, and it felt like I basically was crashing a family reunion, you know.

Um, so I kind of found a spot in the corner of camp uh next to the pile of rebar and the generator and made that my home. Um, but I very distinctly remember that afternoon, that evening, climbing their fourstory scaffold at sunset um to just get a sense of of the space and and watched the playa come alive for the first time. And I just broke down. Like the the the feeling that I had in that moment was like, "Holy s***, you know, thank God I found this. Um I'm I'm so lucky to be in this moment at this time in this place." Um and that night, the entire camp went out for a group walk and we ended up at Opulent Temple.

Now, at that point in my life, I had spent about five or six years working in live sound and studio engineering. Um, so I knew what good production was. And that experience just completely rewired my brain and and and really my heart, right? I remember thinking, you know, whatever the f*** I have to do to keep doing this, I'm going to do it, you know? Um, so So I spent the rest

your like expectations like because you said you've been spent years like like seeing stuff online and reading it and then you're finally there. I mean

it was so far beyond what Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was seeing things with, you know, two or three different sets of eyes and ears, experiencing it as a newcomer for sure, but also watching, you know, the DJ trigger fire in sequence with, you know, musical drops and watching the eb and flow of the energy between the audience and and that artist. Um, I think it might have been Carl Cox that night. And I had a I had an appreciation of electronic music at the time. I was a huge,

you know, fan of of Chemical Brothers and sort of the earlier, you know, Ax Twin, those guys. But, but I wasn't very familiar with actual house music or dance music. Um, and man, did I get an education that week, that night. um that has you know kind of stuck with me um since then. So I spent the rest of that week kind of just observing and helping and um really became close with those folks pretty quickly. And after that first burn, I came back to decompression. I came back a few weeks after that for bunny jam. Anything that camp was up to, you know, Halloween parties, thanksiving, giving New Year's. Um I was all in, you know, travel based out of

Um that camp's based out of Oakland. Um

so you'd go up from San Diego to Oakland and go visit.

Yeah. Yeah. Racked up a lot of a lot of frequent flyer miles that first year.

Um and by the time 2010 came around, I was pretty fully integrated into the camp. Right.

So were you like like a kid in a candy store? Because it was like, "Oh yeah, I went to Opulent Temple. and I saw them. But then it's like, but then next door there's these people and then next door there's these people and look and there's like robot heart over there and like there's this and there's that. Like I mean was it

Yeah, that's it. It it it did that's exactly the effect it had on me because I you know what the mutant vehicle scene blew my mind. Um not just the dance clubs but the small little bars back in the city. I've found endearing. You know, I discovered the the Golden Cafe and the French Quarter. You know, it just seemed like every corner that you would walk around, there was something um fantastic and you could see the, you know, the weeks and months and years worth of hard work and blood and sweat that were put into that thing to bring it out here for you to enjoy. And importantly, one thing I learned very early on is how easy it was to just walk up to the people involved in that and just talk to them, you know, just strike up a conversation and the value and the meaning of those exchanges and how those could lead to friendships became apparent to me very quickly and that's exactly how I became, you know, so well integrated into into this camp into Zoom. Um, Zoom is the name of our camp. So, um,

was that the same camp that you you first went with in 2009?

Yeah. Yeah.

So, talk about Zoom. What What is Zoom.

So Zuma is a a collective of folks based out of Oakland and I would say the the underlying thread there is is fire spinning. They were part of Conclave for decades and the founders um John Dickinson and and Marian Boris are absolute wonderful people who I think really understand the value of community. Um and so you know They they participate in Renfair. They do all this neat stuff. They're just they're just big they're they're amazing leaders and they're they're really good at at at sort of organizing and building community. So, they've got this neat little compound in Oakland that um they host, you know, fire jams and fire spinning and u art making. Um they've got a full-size LRA. Um and it's just a it's just a neat space and that's really been, you know, the the backbone of this camp because these folks, especially those that live up there, gather every couple weeks, you know, they also go to concerts together, you know, fire drums, regional burns. So, I think part of the secret of of the magic of our camp is is the community and and what we do together all year round. You know, we don't just show up once a year and throw a camp together and go our separate ways.

Yeah.

Um it's a family, you know, it's really family.

Who you said? This is started by John Dickinson. And who else?

Um Miriam Boris, she goes by Shimmer um is is his partner. Um and um John and some of his rough neck uh friends started coming to the burn I think probably around late 1990s. But the camp itself we discovered or or identified this year. We celebrated our our 20th anniversary this year. So,

congratulations, man.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, between 2011 and 2013, I did a handful of solo burns. Um, so I wanted to experience what, you know, what that what what the event, what the city would be like if I wasn't in a camp. So, um,

we just camp like open camp.

Yeah, kind of open camping, you know. Um, there were There was a handful of years in there where I I was completely solo. Um there was a year that I camped with the French Quarter. Um and then there was a wild year where I camped with Giggsville. Um and shout out to those guys. They are they are a wild bunch of whiskey drinking, you know, fastpaced folks. And I loved it. Um I actually met met Smoke Daddy and uh some other amazing people while camped at at Gigsville. Smoke designed the neon for the man for years. I think he did this year again if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, shout out to to Bustin and and Cat and everybody at Giggsville for inviting me in there. That was that was wild. Um then in 2014, I got this weird Facebook message at midnight from a guy named Jim Graham. Um

at the at the time, um we had just bought and were operating ing uh the mid400 off-road race. We'll get into that, but um suffice to say, I I was working as an off-road race promoter, and Jim uh was a class 11 Volkswagen bug racer. Uh believe it or not, there's a wild group of of wacky weirdos who race stock Volkswagen bugs in the desert, and Jim was one of them. And uh

buggy version, just like the stock

stock like they make zero modifications other than a window net uh and a fuel fuel cell.

Um and Jim was just trying to ascertain he was he was he was basically lobbying for these guys to have their own class and not be lumped in with like vintage vehicles. Um so I was like, "Yeah, sure. We'll we'll we'll pull some favors and make that happen." Well, what I didn't realize is Jim was known as Ron John and at the time Ron John was the head of PR for the org. So we struck up a friendship that was rooted in off-road racing but very quickly um connected that that next year or that year in 2014 at the burn and that led to me having this very unique opportunity to meet everybody in media mecca and and start to learn about some of the mechanics uh behind the curtain, right? like BLM logistics and safety protocols and inter agency choreography. I had a real strong interest in all of that because um our races used um a lot of the same working pieces and parts like we rent land that's BLM land. We bring a s*** ton of people out there. We have to keep them safe. We have to clean up the trash

and organizing the full 90deed. name it every the only thing the only thing we have we have a distinct advantage in that our our our our scope of when we're open is two to three days not you know we don't have to be out there for a month and then host

like all of this infrastructure and stuff right

it's all kind of it's a it's much more temporary um thank god right so um yeah so meeting Jim was a real pivotal moment for me because You know,

when did you meet Jim?

I met Jim in 2014.

2014.

Um, yeah. Yeah. And so from 2014 to about 2016. Um, I essentially would go up and still camp solo, but go hang out with him and and and you know, hang out with all the media mechco folks and um just run around and see things from more of like an inside perspective. Um, so it was it was a cool experience that I don't think a lot of people have the opportunity to, you know, to go through and I I I recognized very early on the value of that. And also so many things that I could potentially take back, you know, to my own.

So were you world

volunteering with them or helping or were you just kind of like a

I was a cler on uh No, volunteering up there uh never occurred to me because it was as as much as I was gleaning things from it, it still was important to me to disconnect from work mode, right? Um but you know, it's it I I think we'll get to this because I lead a camp now, but I think my calling was going to be different in terms of how I was going to find a way to give back to the community. And uh

but I love those years. Those were great years. Um

yeah,

about 2016 is when I reconnected with Zoom and I camped with those guys from 2016 um through 2022. And in after the 22 burn, that's when our founder John sat all of us down and said, "Hey, life's kind of taking me in a different direction now. I've got to young daughter I need to focus on. Um,

how that happens?

Yeah, I think you you actually said it right uh in one of your earlier podcasts. There was no big reveal, just a quiet vote of confidence for us to become the doers, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Life, you know, just one day it's just like, nope, we shall be doing this now, you know.

Right. Right. And and so when we had that camp meeting, it wasn't like um oh some big important decision-making moment for the camp. We definitely wanted to keep it going, but you know, I just kind of quietly raised my hand and said, "Hey, listen. I've spent the better part of 15 years working on, you know, operations plans and cgraphy and maps and movement schedules and, you know, I developed spreadsheets uh for seven or eight different departments. You know, that's my day job. So, when it came time to sort of appoint somebody to lead the camp, You know, my attitude was, well, hey, I will do the paperwork. I'll be the intermediary between us and the org and and make sure that we deliver everything that we need to on time and and um keep this whole thing going. And also, um this shouldn't be about some sort of hierarchy, right? Like we all need agency and ownership in this. This is a a family effort. So, let's just understand that everybody's opinions are valid. We need need shared leadership and and shared ownership of this thing. And so

so after you made that speech where everyone just like, "Okay, great. Yeah, you got the job."

Exactly. They're like, "Okay, you're the lead. I just got through this whole speech."

I know. I know. But but uh Yeah. So 23 24 and then this year 25 officially is is as is camp lead. And uh and I love it. It's it's incredibly fulfilling and gratifying. And you know, it's a it's an amazing group of of wonderful people that that have very eclectic um backgrounds and to be able to spend that time with them in that space is is incredibly rewarding, you know.

So I I did an interview. It's uh well for the viewers, we're now talking what is this September 20th,

right?

I mean this well by the time people listen to this, it'll be like January. Um

right.

Um they're I recorded an interview with with Wolfie and so she's the the mayor of u Illumination Village or Illville.

Okay.

I'll tell you the same thing I told her. It's like you need like a sash, you know, like from uh Night Before Christmas. It says like mayor.

Yes.

Hat, you know.

Yeah.

Well, the the funny thing about it too is so um we're referred to as TCOs. theme camp organizers

and there is a TCO Facebook group and I'm sure there probably was a mixer, you know, this year or there's been some sort of official or unofficial gathering of TCOs, but um that Facebook group is pretty wild and and funny because the stories that we swap about the things that we go through.

Oh man.

Um and just sort of trying to corral and mind you like for us we're a camp of anywhere from 30 to 40 um We sort of eb and flow.

Yeah.

Um mainly out of Oakland, but we have a a wonderful contingent of folks from England that come over too. Um anywhere from 8 to 10 folks from from the UK. So to me that's like doable and manageable. When these guys are talking, guys and gals are talking about managing a camp of 100 or 150. I I have I simply have no it see you would it would have to be like a full-time job. Yeah. You know

like with the camp like 300 and like I'm like are you the same you know like

Yeah. Yeah. I mean Gigsville had a neat way of doing it like they had the village style and so there were a few shared assets like you know the carb and you know I think they might have had a portal or two but mostly you had you had you know you had a small village of your close friends within the larger camp and

I actually saw a lot of value in that too. Um still tight still people Yeah. The difference between a village and a hub then is the

dude. You got me. I the the takeaway I think is if I'm not mistaken, hubs are about sharing resources. Maybe it's water, power, you know, things of that nature. Um, but I think a lot of us kind of scratched our head when it was announced officially that, you know, villages are no more and now we're calling them hubs or or whatever. Um, it's It honestly has never really affected us as a camp because I think we're small enough and nimble enough to just still be a traditional theme camp. Um, and we like that, you know. Um, there's something about like knowing everybody in camp really, really well. Um,

like we eat dinner together. Um,

we go out two or three nights uh together as a camp and people break off eventually and things like that, but um, we put on two or three different nights of of fire spinning and fire performance while we're out there, too. Um, and have a wonderful compliment of the sketchiest playground equipment you've ever seen. So, so that's that's our gift back to the community is is, you know, when you're walking along Esplanade and it's, you know, bar sound camp with a million LEDs and, you know, bar and then sound camp. We're like the one playground that you come upon that's super fun for you, for the kids, um for the families, um an amazing kush lounge to sit down and relax in, you know, and just friendly people. And you show up at the right time and we're going to we're going to teach you how to spin poi. Um and you come by at night and we might be, you know, we might be doing um fire jump rope, right? So, um it's it's Uh, it's neat to be kind of rooted in in more of the old school, you know, theme camp vibe.

Do you remember, I don't know, this might have been uh like early on, but uh I remember there was like um what was like a flaming soccer kind of thing and basically it was like you you you light a like a toilet paper roll on fire.

Yeah.

And moopy as hell nowadays people be like, "Oh my god, what the hell are you doing?" You know, but

Yeah. We we've done um fire kick ball um that was not toilet paper, was an actual ball and um had many arguments about whether that was movie or not. Um we did fire baseball one year. Um and uh yeah, I mean, you know, it's like it's it's it's always like walking that fine line between like, hey, this is how we used to do things and and hey, man, that's not cool anymore. You know, like we run into that occasionally. But

so are you always on esplanade?

Um in in in the 20 years that we've been out there, I would say probably 15 of those we've been on esplanade. We've asked for for years off occasionally like you know 23 wasn't a hard year for us with all the rain because of the rain. Like we're a very seasoned camp and we kind of go into it with this attitude of like from the second we hit Gate Road to, you know, Wednesday morning if we have to of of post event, post burn, we need to have the the equipment, the food, the water, and the resources to not just survive, but to be comfortable. So, there's a few of us in camp with RVs and, you know, when s*** hits the fan, we help our friends uh, you know, out of their tents and their shift pods. Um, it's it's a sort of a do or die, you know. Goonies type of attitude. So, it wasn't the rain that year that that stressed us out, but we were on esplanade that year and we had between like 20 and 30 people wander into camp um really in kind of mental and physical distress. Um and that was a interesting twist because we were sort of, you know, stuck in camp because of the mud. Um drinking all of our beer. We made our own mini man effigy that we were burning and suddenly realized, oh s***, there's actually a lot of work to do here. Um, rampart's full, rangers are, you know, spread six sheets to the wind. The the, you know, there's not a lot of good intel coming over BMI at that point. So, we kind of went into triage mode. Luckily, we have about I think we had five nurses and one uh physicians assistant in camp that year. So, we were sort of uniquely um pos position to help a lot of those folks. But it took a lot out of us, you know, after three or four nights of of helping people overcome mental distress and, you know,

like all at once, like a crowd of 30 people, but like

Yeah, it it wasn't all at once, but it was a steady stream from like, you know, s***, Thursday afternoon through, you know, Sunday night. Um,

why why you guys like or were the people just kind of going to everywhere other camps? Yeah,

I think it was happening all over. I think at that year I think we were at about 8:45. So I think it was people coming back from, you know, the 10:00 side who had gone on some mission to see some DJ and, you know, lost their shoes and their jacket. Their bike obviously wasn't going to work in the mud. Um, and by the time they got to us, we were just sort of like the front line, you know. Um, so which was fine. I mean, we all chipped in. We made it work. And and and we've had people reach out to us since then and say, "Hey, you guys really saved our you saved my life, you know, for one thing." Um, but yeah, we've taken a few years off like here and there along the way to to just, you know, have a little bit of less uh pressure, let's say, to to be as interactive and performative as as you sort of feel when you're when you're on Espenade. There's this sense of like, hey, get your s*** set up early, you know, make it dope and and really um interact with the people coming by and and and that's our gift back to the city is it's part entertainment, but it's also part just like authentic interaction, you know. And it's neat because some of the best conversations and some of the coolest people I meet, you know, are like they've gone on our swings and then our teeter totter and we've talked them into climbing on our LRA and they're hanging upside down on our LRA and they feel awkward, but we're like cheering them on and then they jump down and it's like a like a post Olympics performance. They throw their hands up in the air and they laugh and smile and that's neat. And then they come over and they start talking to us and then it's like, you know, this is, you know, Jason, he works for NASA or this is, you know, uh I met a guy named um Bob this year from Arizona. And it it it started out as the most casual conversation and an hour later we were hugging, exchanging contact information and he's one of those people that I will go seek out off play you know

um in the coming months because of that that chance encounter you know

okay one thing before we go too far you mentioned a couple times what exactly is a lera and it's not the Italian money

it's not the Italian money so uh a lera is a a large uh 30 or 40 foot uh triangle it's it's sometimes four-legged but most often it's a triangle like with a rope hanging with a giant um you know three it's about two and a half three foot circle hanging in the middle of it. So it's a piece of of performance uh equipment and it's it's free floating so people who are good at performing on the LRA and this kind of delves into like more of like acrobatic cirto sole type of stream right

yeah

yeah so it's it's the way that you climb on this uh free floating um circle and move your body in and around it. That becomes the the performative art art form, right?

Um and it's wild to have that in camp because yeah, people will just stride right in off the playa and hop on that thing

and you're like, you do this professionally

from like far away and they're like, is that is that guys? Yeah, we're going there.

Right. Right. Um we have another one that's sort of on the uh we call it the lollipop. It's It's a little bit less intimidating. It's about three or four feet off the ground with a bunch of pads underneath it and it's sort of sitting on top of what what would otherwise maybe look kind of like a stripper pole. Same thing. It'll spin. It's just that it's not hanging so you have a little bit more control to sort of practice your moves and then and then work your way onto the LRA. So, do

you guys like like does somebody kind of hang out there? Like if somebody like try show them the ropes like hey like does that work?

Yeah. Yeah. We've got three or four people in camp that are really good at it. Um, and it's always neat when somebody comes in and they've had a little bit of experience with it, but just want the opportunity to learn.

Um, and so you'll see that that interplay between um our campmates and and these folks. And it's it's a really fun thing out there to build people's confidence up and get them to try things that they wouldn't maybe otherwise try, you know, especially in the default world where you're you're always so pent up. and and shy about looking, you know, silly, right? Um I feel like out there it's it's uh you can shed that a little bit under the right circumstances and with a little bit of encouragement, you know,

and do people get like injured? I imagine like when you first said, "Oh, we have a playground." My first thought was like,

"No, no." Uh Andy, we never we never injure anybody. We've never had any serious injuries. Um,

all I all I'll say is this. We have five nurses in camp. So, if things happen, we are prepared to to patch you up. And thankfully, this year we were about a half a block away from Rampart. Um, it's uh it's not as dangerous as some of the stuff we've seen out there, you know.

Oh, clearly.

We try to make it safe, but yeah, I mean, you know,

play at your own risk.

Thought I had with um you're talking about 23 when like and all these people kept like winding up at your camp. Like it's funny cuz I was like why are they winding up there? But then I was like a thought came into my head was like you know when the marathon like we hit the wall.

Yeah.

You know I'm sure people like like I'm going out to deeply and I'm going here and I'm going there and then on the way back they're like okay I'm just a few blocks from my camp. Then it's just like

Yeah.

I've hit the wall. What's here? Yeah.

Zoom. Let's go in.

Yeah.

Well it's it's also like uh the knowledge and the wisdom that you build up having having gone for so many years, right? Like, you know, I I made all those same mistakes early on. I left camp without clear goggles at night. I left camp during the day on a bike riding into the city just thinking all I need is my cup and maybe my ID and then, you know, a dust storm hits and you're like, "Idiot." You know, I have nothing to cover my face, you know? And

so, I think we're we're we're all, you know, know, uh, guilty of being sort of caught off guard by the weather and and those other circumstances. Um, and hopefully you learn from that, right? Because it's it could be dangerous out there. You know, I've been in art cars that stop suddenly and discover people crumpled up on the ground with no lights and no indication, you know, with like a halfass jacket over them. And it's like, dude, you look like a brownie. Like, you look like a pile of dust. out here like you can't just lay down in the middle of the playa

like pass or they're just like I'm the stars or

a little of both like we've you know um so yeah I think to your point it was a lot of that it was a it was a lot of people who took off to go see something and didn't realize you know that's a six mile walk from you know F Street to 10 o'clock you know and needed help on the way back you know. So, yeah, I mean, again, I think a lot of that wisdom and knowledge is is is still um available for people to read about on the e-plia forums. And I find myself constantly on on some of the Facebook groups, Burning Man Facebook groups, when people ask like, "Hey, what do I do?" That's usually the first thing I say is, "Well, don't ask this group of like snarky, crusty burners. you know what to do. Um, they're just going to s*** talk. Go read the EPIA forums which started I think way in the early 2000s, right? So,

even earlier maybe.

Yeah, I think maybe even late 90s and, you know, s***'s changed a little bit, but I think a lot of that cultural wisdom is is is really sort of sitting there. Uh,

it's amaz like buried treasure cuz yeah I mean I remember like like the late 90s early 2000s you know people like oh yeah you know that's how people would like discuss and it's it's a it's a message board I mean oldfashioned like message board and you know you can go like hunt through it and there's all sorts of hidden gems and things you'll

there are yeah there there really are and and and I think there's again it's it's a great allegory for for Burning Man versus the default world right like

if if if in the default world um you've got an edge to you because most of our interactions, let's be honest, are are transactional and on the play you let go of that and and and feel a sense of uh security about being who you really are as a person. I think the the the forums were that for a time. I'm not on there a ton anymore. I don't know if they still are. I mean, social media has certainly trained us all to be assholes. I'm sure that I'm, you know, but for me, when I was trying to get the the basics and the wisdom from the people who had been there at that time the longest, you know, since the the '9s, the first generation of burners, it was a treasure trove for me. You know, I still had to learn a lot of things the hard way even even after reading that stuff. But, um, I think think you could piece together a a first- timer's guide from a lot of that stuff that would go a little bit deeper than what the ORC has time to produce and and publish each year. Oh, yeah. You know,

I mean, there's lots of different groups. I mean, I know there's one my sister podcast, Accuracy Third, is like, you know, they have their annual kind of uh, you know, tips and tricks for people, stuff like that. And I know the official Burning Man podcast, you know, it's like they do. I mean, I think there's probably various people YouTube and whatever, you know, like they all have their then there's always like the survival guide. I mean, it's amazing. People today like, you know, new newcomers to Bernie man are amazingly like wellprepared. Not like when I went,

yeah,

he got to get there and that was about it. You know, we're like, okay.

Even even that I heard was was was rough, right? Like, you know, Thomas Brothers Guides and you know, turn left when you see the floppy sign. at mile marker 12 or whatever, you know.

Yes,

it's changed.

Are like, okay, put your compass in this such and such a degrees and go 12 miles. And we were like, compass.

I know. That's that's that's proper orientering, you know.

I know. Oh, yeah. I did orienteering in school, too, you know, like years ago. But I remember like we got there, we were just like, "Oh, we should have read this thing."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's I think out of necessity and just the the growth of the event, right? Again, they're I I think if people had a an insight into the uh the stakeholders like the like the BLM, the state, uh law enforcement, um you know, they have books like thick ass books. of of their you know stipulations they call them

stipulations. Yeah.

Yeah. So like you know we we we get these same stipulation packets as well and ours are tiny by comparison because we're not you know sort of guaranteeing the the safety of 77,000 people for you know 7 to 10 days but it's similar. Um you know we've got vehicles that are moving upwards of 150 miles an hour and we have to, you know, accept the liability of the safety of both the competitors and the public and our volunteers and the media. Um, some of our races will have 40 helicopters in the air at the same time because these helicopters follow the the race vehicles, the the most expensive like high-end trucks. These are, you know, like $2 million trucks that

that can move across the desert at 140 miles an hour. Um, what makes sense is for them to have their own personnel helicopter above them essentially spotting for them and telling them, "Hey, up ahead there's, you know, there's another truck." Yeah. It's insane. Like the whole It's so wild west,

man.

Yeah.

So, all that is to say that like just the helicopter operations in and of itself is a whole department with a whole rule set, coordination with the FAA, you know, Um, you know, at the mint we're we're we're working with two different airports and there's a there's helicopters that are up there to film and now below them there's 30 or 40 pilots who are operating a whole um menagerie of drones, right? Drone production, drone filming. Um, when we operate the mint, we we produce a two-day live stream. It's two days of 12 hours of broadcast and we have as many as 50 cameras in the field. Some are on helicopters, some are on drones, many now with Starlink technology are on the vehicles themselves. So then that whole thing, just the live stream live stream production crew is its whole thing, right? Um, and it's all these moving parts and pieces. And again, you know, thankfully we only have to do this for two or three days. Um, I'm I'm in awe of and blown away by the people that work the burn, in particular, the folks who volunteer and you know, people at the gate, at Mecca, at uh DPW, uh perimeter, many many many of those people when I meet them, you know, it's it's a heartfelt thank you because they're the backbone of the city. Like they make all of this work, you know.

So, where is Mid400? Like where does or is it change place?

Yeah. So, the the first mint was in um 1968. It was a fundraiser for for the Las Vegas Gun Club and it was um connected to the Mint Hotel, which is one of the old hotel and casinos that was on Fremont Street back before there was ever a strip, you know, downtown Las Vegas was was Fremont. And um essentially what happened was uh late 1967 was the first Baja 1000. They called it the Mexican 1000. Um a 1,00 mile pointto-oint race down the Baja Peninsula. And that press coverage inspired the then um you know director of marketing in Vegas at the Mint Hotel to contemplate doing their own long-distance endurance racing. And mind you, at the time the the people who were into and and the the four four fathers and sisters or mothers of of endurance long-distance off-road racing These were all like World War II vets who had had some sort of experience in the war with jeeps and motorcycles and they were retired from the military or or discharged from the military now and they needed they were seeking some other kind of thrill, you know. So, this was like a southwest postWorld War II culture rooted in in in Jeeps and um the Volkswagen um culture of taking a bug and ripping it down and turning it into a dune buggy, right? That had matured into well, it's not a dune buggy. We're not racing in the in the dunes. We're racing it into the desert. And so all of that kind of um fermented and and and ruminated from about 1968 to 1972. It was a pretty rag tag, you know, not super well organized um off-road race. Then in 1972 something very unique happened. Um, an author by the name of Hunter S. Thompson took an assignment from Sports Illustrated to come cover this race. And I think most of your listeners know the rest of that story. You know, he wrote Fear and Loathing allegedly in the in the midst of a drugfueled adventure. Um, and uh ended up publishing those articles in Rolling Stone magazine. Um, but if you go back and read carefully, you know, Hunter was there to cover them in 400. That was sort of the the reason for him being in Vegas. Um, and that really put the event on the map and it started to attract um, you know, NASCAR racers, Parnelli Jones, um, famous celebrities, um, Steve McQueen raced them in, you know, James Garner raced them in, um, astronaut uh you know and

yeah it it it just suddenly became this iconic event that if you were interested in motorsports like you had to go see it or do it or or become connected to it.

So what kind of race is it? Is it it's not like just like a single track

like like a NASCAR or whatever I mean or is it like a is is a course you go like 400 miles.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's so it's interesting in the in the 50 for 55 years that it's been around, it it's operated, I think 36 out of those. There was a 20-year hiatus where um the Mint Hotel was sold, it became Binyans, and it just sort of u drifted off and into obscurity. But the the course has changed radically like 15 or 20 times in that 53 year span. The way we operate it now today is we have a 100 mile loop that starts in finishes in Prim, which is at the California Nevada border. And um this 100 mile loop takes you out into the Ivanpaw Valley um which is on sort of the west side of the 15 freeway there. You're still about 45 minutes outside of Vegas. And it's it's a long 100 mile loop that takes you around and through this valley. And it is some of the roughest, nastiest desert that that you've ever seen. it it's a really really difficult course. What makes it even more difficult is we race on it for two days. So on Friday we start with the smaller lighter sort of vintage slower vehicles um intermixed with modern UTVs which is a whole other ball of wax. Um and so there's you know 14 hours of of racing. Some of those classes will only race one lap because they're going so slow that if they truly were trying to do 400 miles, we'd be there for weeks, you know, like like the Volkswagen

Yeah.

Yeah. Like the Volkswagen Bugs we were talking about, right? Like those guys are averaging like 22 to 25 miles an hour, you know, for 100 miles. So like

So are you gonna class of K trucks next year or like

Yeah, lower.

It could be it could be anything. And we even had uh Rivian show up and and throw down a lap uh in in one of their electric trucks. We've had over the years uh I think we had an RV out there one year. Um we're down to let people try as long as it's safe and and we've expanded the amount of classes that we've allowed out there um over the years. Um by Saturday that course is very torn up. Like we don't go out and groom it. There's no Zamboni for desert racing, right?

Um and so you can imagine By the fourth lap on Saturday evening, it's like a wasteland out there. The ruts are now four to five feet deep. Like you and and you're now racing towards the end of your race in the dark, which makes things insane and complicated as well.

So, you know, when people finish on Saturday afternoon and Saturday evening, just finishing our race is is a monumental

accomplishment. Um, Yeah. So, but you know, it's it's interesting. There's some wildly wonderful corlaries between that culture and burner culture. And because of my introduction to Jim and my exposure to uh a lot of wonderful folks that work behind the scenes um at Bernie man, um we've gleaned a lot and we've borrowed and and shamelessly stolen a lot and and it's and everything from recruiting rangers and establishing our own crew of of 20 to 30 kick-ass rangers. Um, you know, thank you Bustin for the help with that and and shout out to Creech and everybody on the on the Ranger crew because having just like at the burn, having that first line of eyes and ears and problem solvers um at our event, it has been pivotal to its its success. Um, and then operationally, like if you looked at my current current operations plan, which I'm actually writing for next year right now. The way that it's structured and and the um questions that we're answering and the issues that we're addressing prior to them happening and and biting us in the ass and becoming, you know, a a potentially disastrous problem. I learned how to do that by by seeing the way that uh the Burning Man organization set that up to, you know, to sort of coordinate and communicate with state and federal agencies. So

that's Interesting. Yeah. I almost look as like like a mentorship kind of thing, you know, and it just makes me think like, you know, how many because you're I'm sure you're not the only person to have this experience. I mean, how many other people have kind of like been along for the ride and just kind of like slowly been like or been there quietly in the background or just kind of hovering and just like soaking up all this stuff like a sponge and then gone off and then like I mean how many other like events that we know about? They're like, "Oh yeah, you know, Coachella like took their ideas and or you know like they're or whoever.

Yeah.

I mean Brit's influence like yeah it goes far and wide.

I think it has you know um in in in 2020 when COVID shut down uh live events in in particular in Nevada. Um we were very fortunate to get a call from from Marne Benson who works in the with the legal team for the ORC and she was putting together a advisory panel and wanted to um really pull in anybody who was working in the live event space in the state of Nevada. And it was a incredible group. I mean, it was we're talking um you know, the folks that run EDC, Insomniac, you know, multi multi-million dollar live outdoor event, obviously, right? Um but also folks like the Rodeo and uh uh the Reno Balloon uh uh event and sort of like uncommon uh bedfellows, let's just say, all suddenly on the same call. And what we realized very quickly is we represented billions of dollars of revenue to the state of Nevada. And at the time, they were only allowing, you know, up to 200 people to gather outside. Meanwhile, the casinos were allowed to operate, I think, with 50% capacity based on their fire code, which was, you know, utter b*******. So, it was really just, hey, let's all get together. Let's let's craft a um you know a sort of set of of of points that we want to communicate to uh Governor Sisilac's office and see if we can't get some some change happening by 2021 so that we can all operate. Um and I I just was thrilled with that experience and and to this day I'm still in touch with a lot of the people that I met there but um really appreciated Mar's leadership in that in that moment. And so, you know, she and I became friends and um we're constantly even to this day swapping notes and information as special recreation permit proponents. Um that I think have been instrumental and helpful to both of our groups. Um and uh you know, s***, we should probably even formalize that. I to your point, I guess I'm agreeing I think that there's a lot of value in in the way that um certain aspects of the event are run. Um and certainly in the people that that are in those key positions, you know, um it's become apparent to me the longer I go that, you know, whether it's it's in placement or uh the folks running.

Yeah.

Yeah. You So, you know, like those Yeah. Those people whoever's running gate, whoever's running perimeter Like those are like my unsung heroes. Like when I'm at the office party on Thursday, I'm like looking around going, "Is that who I think it is? Let me buy that that cool ass person a drink because I don't know that they get um the acknowledgement or the love or the support that they should. You know, a lot of them have full-time jobs and lives and kids and stuff and um if they decide one day not to do this, like, you know, that could be very troubling."

Yeah.

You know,

so

well uh if Um, I don't know any of those people you think of and maybe, well, let me later on. Uh, if you could introduce me to them, I'd love to have them on the show because that's kind of part of the reason, you know, I do the show. It's not just, you know, the shadow of the man like, you know, like what Bernie man's influencing, but it's also to kind of Yeah. shine a light on on people like this. We're talking about people kind of like seemingly kind of like in the shadows that that make everything work.

Yeah. No, and I that that's what drew me into your podcast straight away. I mean, you know, Um, I'm great friends with nurse. Um, you know, um, really good friends with JK and and again, these are the people that I've met um, over the years, I I would say if I've developed one really important skill for being out there, it's like being in a a a casual whatever conversational moment out there and realizing like this is a neat f****** person that does a really cool thing and if you're smart, you'll just shut the f****** and listen to what they have to say because there's probably some wisdom and knowledge that's about to get dropped.

Um and and if and when the opportunity presents itself, you know, find a cool way to acknowledge their commitment of which you benefited your entire this entire community has benefited, right?

What's more to hear yourself talk or or like

let somebody like you kind of like throw them a bone and be like here tell me about yourself and like you're saying like the artists like you know going up and like here this what you made is incredible tell me about it like that's what they want you know people like

yeah you like let me tell you

yeah I met um I'm going to f*** this up forgive me Johnny I met British Johnny it's either British Johnny or English Johnny the the the dude who designed the um amazing lighthouse sculpture a few years ago with his son

on the Uh oh. What's that?

Not the lighthouse on the car, but like the station.

No, the the the the massive wooden ones that were tilted that had the C. I mean, they're and and they're they were they blew my mind because I have a connection to to lighouses having grown up on Lake Michigan. I met this dude this year um so casually on on the on the on the media mecca patio during a volunteer appreciation party. And what started out as just a hey, how you doing? What's your name? conversation, like 45 minutes later, I'm hugging this dude and and and learned learned a lot about his experience. Uh, you know, 25 years in. Um,

and it it's those conversations that sort of restore my faith in humanity,

you know, and then I come back here And I'm just less of an a****** about the parking spot and the guy bagging my groceries wrong. And you know what I mean?

Yeah. It's like it's just takes that chip off your shoulder because now in the back of my head I'm thinking

that might be a neat person too, but for this weird transactional interaction that we're forced to have because of this.

Yeah.

And also sometimes it's just like someone's just having like a bad day. It's like it's not just like oh everyone like you're just an a******. It's like And sometimes just making that human connection, you know, to just be like look someone in the eye like thank you or you know how you doing like it means all the world. I mean I to people I've even heard some people they're like I went up on the bridge and I was about to jump off. I was just waiting for one person one person to come up and then one person comes up and it was just like and they just say don't jump somebody loves you and they're like

and they stop and they and they don't jump you. And then I've seen other ones where people leave like a suicide note. where they were just like, I went up on the bridge. I waited for half an hour for someone to talk to me or even look at me in the eyes. No one did. And so then I jumped, you know, like how about this that it's it's free personal communication contact, you know?

Yeah. No, dude. It actually happened to me last night. I got a I got a I got a flat tire coming home uh from dinner and I have a I have a big Toyota Tacoma with large oversized, you know, wheels. Of course, it's it's like the work truck, right?

And it's it I can't just carry around a full-size spare. They're they're monster vehicles. Luckily, I'm only a few miles from home. But it's this interesting psychological experiment where I'm sitting on the side of the road that the hazard's on, waiting waiting to get a ride from my cousin to come back to our ranch to get the tools we need to go change the tire. It's like, how many people drove past us and didn't stop? How many people made the turn and and turned right in front of us and didn't stop? One guy, you know, this one dude pulled up and and was ready to hop out of his truck with his wife and help us change this tire and was going to go home and get tools. And it's like that's that's what I think the world needs more of right now. And I think that's what what we can learn out there is to stop thinking so often about um what do I get out of this and um what am I going to sacrifice in this moment and a little more of like what is the opportunity here,

you know.

Um, one of the people that I met early on in in my camp in Zoom, this wonderful human being, Warren Tresant, Warren's, uh, an amazing artist in his own right. He he was an animator for Pixar for years. He worked on a bunch of of Peter's sculptures um, and did a lot of the animation um, for for Peter's pieces, like the the skeletons that were rowing on the giant disc and I'm bad with names, but like people know like Warren's Warren's a a really accomplished artist in his own right and now volunteers and works at the artery. Um Warren taught me the value of of those lessons about how easy it was to walk up to an amazing piece of art, look around and probably guess who the artist was, and then just go ask them to explain to you what their what their art means to them if if they want to. A lot of times they're like Well, you tell me what it means, which is cool, too. You know what I mean? But just that

conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Just getting over that hump of like being nervous about engaging um and then, you know, the the neat things that can come out of it, you know. Um when I camped with Giggsville and met um Smoke Daddy, there was a night I I didn't know who he was, you know, and and he looked just like another Crusty Burner to me and there was a night where he invited a few of us out, took us to the man um told us for s***'s sake, don't light anything like a cigarette, and then this was like the night they were packing all the fireworks and the diesel. Dave was doing his thing with the fireworks.

So, all these guys are scrambling around. He he flashes his hard card, brings us inside the man, and shows us what everything looked like both from from the neon wiring perspective and the fireworks perspective.

That's incredible. It

was just insane the amount of like of effort and detail that was going into this thing that in within 24 hours was just going to be blown to high heaven and, you know, burned to the ground.

And and that that opportunity to have that experience came from um you know, striking up a conversation with this dude in camp

and and finding finding something in his storytelling and my storytelling that that we could bond over.

And in our case, it was, you know, skateboarding and punk rock music. You know, we were old skaters. So,

you're you're one of me. Yeah.

Right. I can see the scars on your knees and I have those same scars, you know.

So, this kind of gets to the last question. So, yeah. So, the the impact or influence of Bernie man in your life.

Yeah, it's it's it's been profound and I think I think I could probably you know divide that into you know professional and personal right like so on the professional side I've talked about this a bunch but like meeting Jim um gave me this incredible unique opportunity um to not just show up as like a wideeyed participant but to to sort of be ushered in behind the curtain and and meet folks working within the organization many of them vol tears. So whether that was like the legal team, the safety, you know, media and communications, I got this cool backstage view of how culture can be scaled and sort of safeguarded at the same time. So that was that was phenomenal and and and I took a lot of the things that I learned from that and and as I've shared like applied them directly to our business today, you know, whether it's like rangers or you know, um, you know, things that we've incorporated into our event. It's it's always been what can I what can I borrow from this or steal from this and apply, you know, into our world. One of those has been the leave no trace aesthetic. So, when we go operate these events in the desert, we have we're we are trying to overcome a similar stigma that that that burners have, which is It's like you guys, you know, make a huge f****** mess and yeah, you say you clean it up, but you're just putting the trash over here or whatever, right?

It's like you're going out into this pristine desert and you're bringing, you know, gas like, you know, smoke spewing like vehicles and you're going up the ground and you're you're all the wildlife is running away because you're making all this sound. It's like, don't tell me you're not disruptive, you know? But,

right.

No, no, we're leave no trace and like take a look after we leave, you know.

Yeah. Uh so so we went a step further about six or seven years ago. We decided that before every race we're going to organize a desert cleanup event. Um we're going to invite our racers, our sponsors, local media, and importantly the community. So we reach out to, you know, the people who ride mountain bikes on the roads that we use, horses, they run on them, uh the tough mutter groups, um the rise festival folks, anybody who's utilizing the Ivanpaw Valley for anything. We consider, you know, hey, you guys are your fellow stakeholders in the in the environmental stewardship of this land because if it gets f***** up, the federal government will either sell it or they'll close it. So, every year we we conduct these cleanups um and pull, you know, tens of thousands of pounds worth of illegally dumped trash out of the desert. We're talking everything from couches, refrigerators, tires to we've pulled entire RVs out. Um, it's rad because off-road people have like crazy vehicles and and they love this. They none of the people that are part of our off-road culture want to see trash and and s*** out in the desert any more than, you know, than we do as burners. So, you know, that's that's been something that we've been able to do. And and and over the span of six or seven years, we've now pulled uh close to 800,000 pounds of trash. out of Nevada, Arizona, California, right?

Like the DEA like ATF like display where you have like it all kind of lined out and be like on the podium like this is what our volunteers have found.

Yeah, we we absolutely do. We shoot content around it. We get sponsors to chip in on it, you know, um to to, you know, people like Republic Services who are the definitive, you know, trash and recycling group out of Vegas. They get behind it. So, it's Yeah, it's 15 40 foot, you know, containers full of trash and plastic and gross s***. And mind you, this is all like recreational shooting territory, too. So, most of it's been shot to high hell with bullets. So, we've got microlastics and stuff to contend with. And and we do that because we're operating in um in a space that is is the habitat for an endangered species of desert tortoise. When we race, they're dormant, but it's still the impact that we can affect, right? Um, and then there's just the cultural side of what we've borrowed. You know, we've had we've hired fire performance. We've had uh some of Henry Chang's amazing mutant vehicles come out and and get put on display. So, yeah, literally on the professional side, it's sort of been any little, you know, influence or inspiration that we've been able to glean. Um, we didn't vehicle like doing the whole race.

No. Not yet. Not yet. I mean,

a different class.

If you've got a roll cage and a fuel cell, we'll take a look at it. But the the challenge is like, can they make it? You know, we've had plenty of people ask, and I'm like, you know, dude, you're not

do like the the Red Bull kind like, you partner with a Red Bull and then you get all crazy people to come out of who makes it. Yeah. Like one loop around, you know, like

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the rate of attrition is like 55%. So, less than half of the people that start our race finish.

All right. So,

before we finish, um I was going to get to the impact on you in influence on you and personally in your life.

Yeah. Yeah. On the personal side, I've been really lucky to be uh part of a core group of friends, you know, out of the Bay Area in England, like these just remarkable, talented people. It's it's a really rich tapestry of of wonderful folks. And those those are my extended family, right? Um, and that's that's been probably the most valuable thing to come out of the entire experience for me because those friendships transcend the burn. Yeah, we're gathering for Burning Man, we're going to regionals, the whole thing. But if all that went away and I still had this family of friends, that would be, you know, fine with me. That that's the gold. Um,

the other thing too is, you know, bringing my daughter out there in in 2023 watching her not not only, you know, love it but thrive um was a remarkable shift for me as well. You know, she's 19 now and just told me the other day that she wants to shift her her college focus and her major to ceramics and wants to be an artist. And I'm confident that a lot of that comes from her time on the playa and her exposure to that sort of creative freedom.

23 mud And now she wants to go into ceramics,

right?

I just love the mud, Dad. Like, I'm scared. Makes the mud hard.

It's in her DNA. It's in her DNA. She has her own wheel in the garage. Like, this is this is a young woman who who walked into the garage the other night and made a vase with her bare hands while, you know, I'm in here.

Think you buy a kiln, too? Or

I looked them up, man. They are they are pricey. You're you're talking two three grand and a lot of extra safety s***. And I live in a very crispy, dry canyon, so it's open for discussion. I'm not saying no. But um and then I I I definitely want to mention my my partner Brooke. I met Brooke in 2014. Uh and we became fast friends. I actually met her in the the commissary of all places. And it was one of those chance encounters that um change your life, you know. Um, from 2014 on, we became close friends and every year when we went back to the burn, we would carve out a night or two to hang out and it was always magical. It was like a almost like an annual emotional and spiritual grounding, you know. Um, and then last year at the burn, life kind of opened up for us and that friendship was able to grow into something much more and into a real partnership. So, this year, We celebrated 11 years of friendship and a year together as as partners.

Uh thank you. We we were trapped in an RV in the rain playing back, but but it was it was wonderful. So when I when I tell people I I met the love of my life at the the commissary salad bar 11 years ago, I I mean it. That connection has really changed me and I'm I'm a better human father, brother, and son because of because of meeting her. So, she by far is is the greatest gift that the Burns given me.

Wow, that's incredible. It's funny just another thing I just thought of um when you're talking about like friendships on the play like I just for many years one of the things like I just remember I would have some literally some of the best friends like in this world that I would only see during this one week.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You hadn't seen someone for an entire year and it's like and it's like you hadn't skipped the beat. You're just like, "Oh my god, oh my god." You know?

Yes. Yes. I Many many people I run into out there. Uh it's the same thing. I went to I actually went to Unscrews for the first time. Um

Yeah. Cruz, right?

Yeah. Fantastic regional burn. Um and I've been to Utopia. I've been to the to the LA regionals and and um it there's something special about Unscrews and and the number of people that I ran into out there. It was the same thing. It's like it's it's a group of people I seem to somehow miss every year year at the burn just because of its its size and and I'm running a theme camp, right? So, I'm I'm I'm getting pulled in a lot of different directions. Um, but it's just uh it's a wonderful community and and I think it's it's incumbent upon us to continue to work hard to preserve it and to be honest about the things things that aren't working that need to be changed and to be vocal about that

you know

because as you know

it's easy to sort of sugarcoat it and talk about the good because I think a lot of us are optimistic people and and we don't want to s*** on things without offering solutions right

and also a lot of people I think this year especially kind of for the first time maybe saw and felt some things that weren't working right that do need to be fixed Um, and it's easy to point the finger at the org and say it's it's all of their fault, but

you do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but uh I'm I'm hopeful for the future. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I but I do feel like some things need to change. Like we need to find a way to preserve the best parts of this culture and simultaneously be honest about the ones that aren't working or or even harmful

or or I think this will this will go away. You know, there's an economic part of it, but there's also like um

yeah,

you know, the the the the lack of clear messaging about a culture of consent, which

I'm now acutely aware of because I brought my daughter out there and my partners out there, right? Like there's there's deeper conversations about the future of this culture that that really need to be had.

It's amazing clearly like when you bring your teenage daughter out there and the whole concept of kids like Yeah, consent

instantly, like instantly, you know, and and it's not like we were apart for for very long and and she had a a group of, you know, 29 experienced burners around her keeping an eye on her.

But why did they have to keep an eye on her, you know?

Yeah.

And and um

well, it's funny because 17 and you know, you keep talking about like, oh yeah, I should bring to Brady Man. You know, it's always kind of coincides with school and now he just started senior year. But he has this friend this this this young girl named and uh very very cute very very cute like half LA and half like you know like how a white girl and right

I remember like talking about Bernie man and she go to break and she's like I want to go to Burning Man and I was like you not you and she was like why not me I was like you you're trouble

yeah

yeah

no it's not you it's everybody else we're gonna have around you like at all times cuz you know like like oh the the vultures will be like flying like circling above you know and around. Yeah. I I think that uh I think that the first couple years that you go out there when you're in the glow of uh nontransactional communication for the first time, it's really easy to sort of Um, it's really easy to sort of let that envelop the way that you see the city and to forget or maybe not to notice that there is another side of it like and and and I think that in so far as many of us are aware of that and we talk about it openly as seasoned burners, I don't see it very well. published, memorialized or discussed and it's certainly not coming from the org directly, you know, and that's my personal opinion on it. You know, people can argue if they want, but like we when we as theme camp as theme camp organizers, when we tell the org that we're going to have fire art, that application expands into like 13 more pages

and and very smartly, we then have to articulate everything from show me a drawing of every nut, bolt, and fastener of your fire art to um describe in detail how you're going to store your propane and how much you have. It's a very very smart way of of forcing us to be safe.

There's nothing

protocols like what if like what if this happens? What if that happens?

Right. Right. And and that and that is necessary obviously because people have gotten blown the f****** out there. Right. So So,

but the unspoken of, you know, consent culture, like, yeah, there's

exactly exactly where where's the 17 pages of, hey, as a theme camp organizer, have you taken the time to sit down and talk to your, let's be honest, primarily male uh virgins who are coming to Bernie man for the first time about what consent actually f****** means, you know, and that this is not an anything goes culture and you don't have the right to put your hands on somebody And by the way, if a person is inebriated, drunk, high, whatever it is, they don't have the ability to give you consent,

right? Like that that's a that's an educational thing. Like not not everybody not everybody is a predator. There are predators. Not every predator. Some of them just lack the education and the understanding to to to to understand what that means. So like if we as seasoned burners aren't aren't doing that and the org isn't doing it, then it's simply just not being done. Um, I I would I would advocate strongly for changing that because it's it's through my friendships with with women out there, I've come to understand that while they don't feel scared to move around the city, it's certainly there's still this um feeling that, you know, some conditions out there aren't safe and it's one thing if you know if you're a seasoned burner and you're you know an older woman and you know how to carry yourself but there's many many young girls that come out at 18 1920s and um yeah I think we can do a better job of sort of educating them and and and and the other people that are out there you know and

I think it's just one of those things with just like I said it's just not

spoken of and then somebody like like JK like my friend Jenny K you know who who does bring these things up. You know, I think a lot of times people just kind of just like kind of zip their mouth or you just kind of like Yeah, we get, you know, I don't want to verbally acknowledge that there's a problem, but yeah, I quietly agree with you, you know?

Right. Right. Like, don't rock the boat. And um, hey man, it's a party. Don't bring us down with your heavy discussion. We just want a party.

Come on. Like,

you know, take your daughter out there, take your mother, take your sister, you know? I think with the the nature of Bernie man, the Bernie man culture like you know these boundaries are are kind of dissolved between people and people like make these connections with with each other. It's like we should be able to have these conversations you know we should be able it's like a like a family at Thanksgiving you know I it can be rockus at sometimes but you know you should you should feel free to like bring up he was like you know Uncle Buck like you know you're an alcoholic.

Yeah whatever.

Yeah. Well listen realize we're family and we can take it, right?

Yeah. Well, there's there's some wonderful books that that touch on our inherited culture of of of of toxic masculinity. Terrence Beal, I mean, read the book Us or any of his books and listen to that guy really dive deep and and and break down, you know, what it's like to to be, you know, a a man in America right now. And in and He's he pulls no punches. He'll tell you straight up like this is the stupid s*** that you do and the way that you act and and this is why you do it. And a lot of it has to do with, you know, uh uh transactional commercial um culture that that promotes and espouses the very worst in in in a a patriarchy, you know. And so, yeah, we should be able to go out to this place and dissolve that and interact as as as human beings. And you know, if we're saying we accept everybody and we want everybody to participate, you know, I think it's okay for us to put our foot down and say, "Except for you m************. Except for you predators. Except for you people that come out here and want to, you know, um um manipulate and hurt people because they have their guard down and they're trying to be open to all this other stuff. Right. They're trying to grow as a human being and you're praying on them at that exact moment. Man, that is so f***** up.

Yeah.

Because then it has the opposite effect. Now the thing that they were told is magical and safe and and a platform for self-expression just did this horribly painful thing to them, right? And so as a community, I think we have to we have to accept our responsibility in that whether it's not talking about it and and making it more public or finding a way to protect You know, I to be honest with you, dude, if you get hurt out there, if you're if you're attacked or raped, I'm not I'm not even 100% sure what where you go, you know, who do you talk to? Do you go get a ranger? I mean, I know there there's there's rangers out there that have specific experience with domestic violence, but like

some kind of protocol, right? Yeah.

I mean, you go to any college campus in America and there's the the f****** blinking blue light and the phone that you pick up, you know what I mean? That's in the parking lot. Like, so there's just stuff like that that like I would hope that there would be kind of more of a organic com going forward hopefully there will be like more of organic community response to it. So like if somebody is speeding by Zoom and then crashes their bike, you know, and they fall down and like they broke their or whatever they skin their knee, like five or six people will kind of run out, right? And it's like, "Oh my god, let me help you out. Here come sit down here. Let me get you like a towel to stop the bleeding. Here have a glass of water, whatever." I'm just hoping that that same mentality will go not just for like phys harm, you know, but for talking about it's like if somebody comes in the camp be like that dude over there there is like is like iske out and being really sketchy that five or six people would kind of come out and just be like

call a guy out and just be like hey dude

that's not cool and you know what sit down we're going to talk about this and and you're not going to do this again

you know and everybody as a community we all kind of come together then it's like we sort of like a vaccine we kind of inoculate ourselves against it right

yeah well well we have a that that is exactly the way it should be because what I've learned is that the the the the communitybuilt and community-led initiatives in that space in particular are oftentimes way more successful than things that come down from the orc. Like don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting the founders to get together and infrastructure.

Yeah. You know, although I do need I do believe there needs to be something, you know, um but but I agree with you. I think it it it does need to be something that's that's that's community-led and also we have an uphill battle. You know what what was the what was the number one story that that came out of the burn this year? The f****** orgy dome is is broken. You know, like come on. Like I I get it. It's clickbait. It's sensational. Blah blah blah blah. You know, but there were a million other stories that are have now poured out on on on Facebook and and in the forums that were stories of, you know, camps that got destroyed and their neighboring camps chipped in and helped them, you know, people who got lost or got stuck in their car on Gate Road for 21 hours.

Yeah. Like me.

Yeah. And and and you know, got brought water in a sandwich so that they could survive, you know, the next six hours till they made it to camp.

So maybe that's maybe that's part of it is finding a way as a community to publish and promote the things that are less sensational, less uh less sexually driven, like you know, pretty half- naked women on Instagram standing in front of art. Okay. But for every one of those people in in that photograph, there's a million other stories that are happening in and around the city that my opinion have a lot more value, right? They're people overcoming adversity together. and um you know setting up art that that survived you know 55 mph winds for for three hours and so on and so forth. So

yeah man I think that's part of it.

I think other part of this is um a lot of like you're saying like bottom up I mean that that's how almost everything kind of happens at Burning Man. Talk to Ron John he like he knows all about this you know.

Yeah like

people like the or kind of recog izes things and sometimes they'll they'll incorporate and bring in be like okay now this is an organizational principle only after like it becomes a thing and then they're kind of like oh this is what you all want I mean the 10 principles

that's that came about like Bernie man was around for like a dozen years or more before like Larry ever took pen to paper you it's not like you know at the beach before he burned the man he's like hold let me get a piece of paper and write down you know like

right right I mean we're we're what uh 27 I think amendments to the constitution, right? Something like

let's not bring American politics.

Well, I Yeah, I just mean that like

threehour podcast our f****** 10 principles can be amended and updated and expanded as well as as we as a culture

tell tell the world what we find value in,

right? Um instead of instead of waiting for for you know the the the the org to tell us.

Yeah.

You know, so

so when

when are we going to organize this summit that we just agreed needs to happen, Andy?

I can take like yeah talking about something like this. But anyway, normally I do an hour and 15. I think we're almost an hour and 30, but uh I decided to go a little longer because I I thought this this bit at the end with the consent was actually quite quite important.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Agreed.

All right. Well, thank you for the interview and we'll talk to you soon.

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