EP 44 Erin Douglas

Episode 44 with Erin Douglas is out now! Meet Erin Douglas, the visionary creator of the Black Burner Project. The conversation traces Douglas’s evolution from a hesitant first-time attendee in 2017 to a prominent community leader who uses portraiture and storytelling to increase the visual identity and inclusion of people of color at Burning Man. Central to her story is Douglas’s transition from a career in finance to one in creative photography, a shift that culminated in her landmark 2022 installation of thirty-foot-tall sculptures on the playa. By documenting hundreds of personal stories and organizing massive word-of-mouth group photos, Douglas has successfully challenged the perception that the event is an exclusive space, ultimately fostering a diverse supportive network for future participants. Erin has taken some of the most iconic photos in the last few years and has a wonderful and inspiring story, please give it a listen.

https://www.erin-sha.com/

https://www.blackburnerproject.com/

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Don't panic, it's that Andy. Our guest is Aaron Douglas. Welcome.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

No, it's funny because like each time I have like a different opening, you know, for like a, you know, the whole that Andy because people ask me it's like, "Oh, you know, what's your player name?" And I was like, "I don't I never had a player name. It's just Andy." You know, people talk to me, they like, "Who are you?" And they'd be like, and they're like, "Oh, oh, you're that Andy." I'm like,

"Oh,

okay." So, you gave yourself one.

But yeah, but since this is actually episode 42 and your last name is Doug, I was just kind of like, "Oh, don't panic." You know, like, "Hey, check this guy to the galaxy." So, yeah. So, when did it all begin for you? Like, when was the first time you ever did any kind of Burning Man thing? Went to the Ply or any regional event?

I have never done a regional uh event. No. Um, I went to PIA the first time in 2017 and I think I'd heard about Burning Man, I guess around 2010 because um it was a friend who I lived in New York City at the time and a close friend of mine um we used to run in a really cool run crew together um and she was going for the first time and so she was telling me about her preparing for this thing but she didn't she didn't really explain too much about it um and I had never looked it up and it was also 2010 um and so um so I just knew that she was going to this thing and then Once I heard her say it, I just happened to overhear it in other spaces that I was in um randomly and was just like, "Oh, that's my friends going, you know, to that thing." Um and she was going every year and she's very I always call her she's like a very particular intentional person. So I also knew like I don't know what this is but if she's giving her time and effort towards it, it must be like something. Uh and then in 2017 I had moved back to Maryland. I Yeah, I had moved back to Maryland just then and um she just called me up and was like, "You're going to Burning Man." And I was like, "Oh, am I?" You know, I don't know about that. Um and I I was definitely unsure. It wasn't something that was on my bucket list or that I was interested in, but you know, I trusted her. She had become a very good friend by then. Um like I said, I knew that she was intentional about the spaces and the time that, you know, spaces that she was in, the time that she gave or things that took her time had to be very valuable. And so I think my knowledge of or my understanding of who she was as as a person, you like I fully trusted that she felt like I was I should be there. I didn't know why. And I still don't know to this day really, but um she felt like I should be there and she was going to gift me the ticket and I didn't know how much they cost at that time, but I knew it was like a good, you know, that was like a nice gift and so I would never say no to to her because she always challenges you in a way that like you might give her the side eye but you're knowing you know that she's making you a better person in the end. You know

the tickets were kind of hard to come by then too

and they were hard to come by way harder to come by then. Um so yeah uh and she gave me a ticket and she made it really hard to uh say no. Like every time I said something she's like well I have your tent. I have a bike. We can set you up. Just get you know get your get your food here and your flight and like your you know like nothing else. So I didn't even know camp dues existed until I wanted to come back the next year you know because she covered it all and it was with her camp too. So I had I knew people because they were her friends that I had met over the years. So

So she made it easy for you.

She made it easy for me. Yeah, for sure.

I was going to say like coming from the east coast I mean it just logistically I mean I mean I know I have friends who like like oh yeah they pack up the van they drive.

Yeah. It's very very easy for those West Coasters and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, most of my campmates um were from the East Coast uh and if they weren't, they had just moved from the East Coast to the West Coast. But

I know that like a couple of like Boston, New York, a couple places, they they do a container.

Yeah. I know New York and DC do um they do a container, but I didn't know about the container at that point.

Wow. Well, that was really nice of her. I mean,

yeah, they made it very easy. So, what you just like flew into Reno? Did you like did you rent like rent a car or did you pick you up?

Flew into Reno. Um, her were they married? I don't think they were married at the time. So, her her husband now um he had friends who were coming in from Korea, Jap I don't know. It was Asia

and they it was their first time also and I had I had not met him um them. and they had like a small RV and so they they agreed to pick me up and we all went in together as as virgins and um so that was fun cuz I got to know them and they were great and we're all still friends and um yeah and we have that that nice story together as is going to Burning Man for our first time and then picking me up from the airport and so that made it and they also because they had gotten there they picked up my water at we found like a water distribution company so they were going to get theirs they picked at mine. So it, you know, it all just like worked out. And

so, so going into this, your friend was like, "Okay, I'm going to take care of you. I got your ticket." Like just your own research. You like like what did you what what were you we think you were expecting?

I don't I don't remember doing a ton of research. Maybe I went on the website, you know, she sent me a bunch of spreadsheets that was like, "Hey, these are like must have and these are the good nice to haves and like you know I went to the store my dad took me and we went to Costco we went to this place and that place and um you know everything was laid out so but the experience part of it or like visuals I don't know if I looked a ton but I did somehow know that or figure that I wouldn't see a ton of black people or people of color and so

although and that that made me nervous even my friend was Latina but um um that made me nervous in a different way because I was a solo traveler. I traveled around the world by myself and at that time there was not I was rare I rarely saw other people who looked like me when I was traveling which is a lot different now. Um so it was interesting how I felt different because this this environment felt like it was different and it felt extreme. Um and so I was just like I don't you know I don't what am I going to do with my hair you know my my my friend didn't have hair like mine and um her skin is lighter so she didn't you know like so um so I think that was the biggest biggest thing was like am I going to see people I'm probably not and what do I do and I don't have anyone to talk to about it um until I found someone. Yeah.

But in all your travels around like before that I mean I'm sure it wasn't like it's like oh I'm going to this like remote desert.

Right. Right. I mean there were still you know place is that not you know not a lot of people would at that time have traveled by themselves you know like

going to Asia for two like I had never traveled before that was my first time traveling um you know some people won't even go to Mexico by themselves still at this point you know but it wasn't a definitely wasn't a remote um desert and I did also didn't know what I was going to find out there that felt like was me you know

um so Well, you at least you knew that you have like a a good friend who was looking out for you, right?

Yeah, definitely. You had a good friend. I was just like, what am I going to do out there? Like, I don't do this, I don't do that. I'm not really a partyier, you know? So, um but it was helpful once I I actually um another runner friend, I don't even know how he wound up going to Burning Man. He was a black guy. I don't know how he found out about it, you know, New Yorker.

And I randomly remembered that he went one year. And so I reached out to him and his girlfriend at the time. He connected me to her um so that I could get just some insight about hair and what she did and clothes and you know he kind of really helped me just relax a bit. Um so that was that was helpful.

Yeah. So what did it feel like when you when you you know you you got there? I'm sure you got off the plane and you met some you these new people and you get an RV and you're like okay this is an adventure. and you're driving up the the 447 and you're like, "Oh, it looks pretty pretty remote." And

you're on the gate road and they're like, "Oh, come on out and roll in the dust." I mean,

yeah, the I mean, by the time we was it dark, I'm sure we were in line and when it was light, you know? I remember changing my clothes and my shoes once we got on the dirt road from like my airport clothes and put on I had Tim old Tims that I hadn't worn in forever, which were like perfect to actually Um, and I put them on and stepped out there for the first time and, you know, we had a lot of time um, in the line

and I remember, yeah, rolling in the dust, not being sure about it and then getting to camp and just being, you know, trying to take it in, trying to understand what what I was looking at. Um, you know, nervous about setting up a tent because I didn't, you know, I didn't know how to set up a tent. I was very jealous that they were just like going to sleep in their RV. didn't have to do all that. Um, and yeah, so I think it was it was the tent was small. Um, it was probably like a twoperson tent that you couldn't even stand up in. So it was really I mean maybe it was maybe it was a little maybe it was a threeperson tent but um so I think that was probably a big frustration that year. Um you know like trying to stay organized and you know learning how your body respond and your mind respond to just like all the different things happening. and you know forgetting something in your tent when you just tied up your boots and you don't want to take your boots off but you don't want dust in the tent and like it that drove me crazy you know

um so I would try to be like okay let me put a basket where like my lights are here these things are here by the front door so that if I forget them I don't have to like you know walk across

I think you kind of like learn by doing stuff too I mean because people like oh they research and they watch all these YouTube videos and stuff, but it's like it's pretty much like you once you kind of get through you figure out it's like, oh, what what routine like is is good for me.

Yeah. What's good for you? Cuz that might like somebody might not care and somebody might just walk into their tent with their dusty shoes on and that's not a problem with that for them.

Yeah.

You you learn what becomes triggers for yourself

and then like problem solve around how to fix those. So,

um but I you know I I would say I still am in my head but probably less in my head. um overinker and a little bit, you know, like closed and so it was a lot, you know, like I couldn't loosen up and um it was overwhelming. It was beautiful and also, you know, overwhelming and I didn't have real words and I was like, I don't know if I like the I I didn't know how I felt about it, you know. Um and it it likely once I kind of got my groove and felt, you know, in the groove of it, then like we were taking down the the the camps. Um,

so yeah, I don't remember a lot of details from the like my first year like what like my daily things, but I remember just the feeling of like

overwhelm. I think my first my first night

um you know everyone was doing their thing and trying these things and we walk across Playa and it was like way too intense. And I walk back with another person and I think I was the only single person in my camp. So everyone was couple and I got in the bed at like 9:30 on the first night like you know earplugs in wasn't working. I was just like what's happening and

when does it get quiet around?

Um yeah

yeah yeah. I mean, so okay, so you get there, you you set up your tent. I mean, um, so how long before are you like wandering around? I mean, were

um,

you can like stick to camp for a while or like

No, I grabbed my I grab a bike uh cuz they had a bunch of bikes that they had just like brought over the years and then someone got a new one and so I grab a bike um and another friend who was my friend's like one of her best friends and my friend's husband were like, "We're going to go ride out to the man in the temple and it was his first time but her like 10th time and he had never come. Um and so we ride out and I just can't like the bike is just so hard to ride and I'm and like at the time the roads were a lot more like kinder, you know, like they were easy to ride on. They weren't bumpy and they weren't

Yeah. The past few years have been treacherous to me. Um um you know they were soft but still some like firmness underneath it. So it wasn't a hard it wasn't hard to ride but I was like why is this so hard you know I was athletic so I was just like okay I run all the time why um and then like you know I was nervous about everyone saying like you might pass out if you don't drink water it gets hot you don't know you're sweating so I was really like and I take my water pack straw thing and I'm sucking and pulling and nothing is coming out so now I'm like I'm going to pack pass out cuz I don't I'm hot and I'm trying to ride this bike and why is it so hard and my friends were like way in front of me and I'm like standing up, you know, pedaling and we get to I don't remember which one we got to first and then I you know I don't ride bikes every I know how to ride a bike but I don't ride bikes. So I had this epiphany to go and check the tire and realize my tire was like completely like it was flat. It never dawned on me. So, I had rode out, you know, 10 minutes one way, 10 minutes, whatever amount of time it took to ride. It was just not a short period of time. You know, you're riding a good amount of distance. And um yeah, I was on a flat, but I was I was in it by then. So, I had to just keep going until we, you know, so they were like, "We're going to go to center camp and we're going to go here." And I rode on a flat the whole time. You know,

where's Aaron? I don't know.

So, I think that was a funny thing and I was just like Oh, okay. It that made me just be like, okay, I understand PLA, like the challenges that it brings with, you know, and

how you handle them and, you know, all all the things. It it's always going to challenge you. So, that was kind of my first,

you know, challenge, I guess.

So, are you I always kind of think about like u burners as like either like daytime people or like nighttime people. Are you like a more of a

Sounds to me like more day. Yeah, I would say day. I mean, I I stay out at night, but um I would I on the norm I would get sleep at night time at night.

The older that I've gotten, the more I've come to really value getting a good night's sleep.

Yeah, I think mine has been that way. I mean, I'll I'll stay out sometimes, but most of the time I'm I'm getting a few hours.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, your your first year maybe a little bit overwhelming at first, right? But then by the end, you're you'd be loving it. So, then how'd you feel at the end? Were you Were you just like do this again? I think

No, I I wouldn't say I was loving it. I knew that um there were some some interesting like things that I didn't really understand. And I think also having the knowledge of travel and experiences made me realize like I don't know how I feel about this, but I do know that stepping into new things have has always opened up something for me.

Um whether that's people, skill sets, mind expansion or whatever. So, I did know that like although I couldn't put my finger on and I couldn't tell how much I liked it or not or if I would go back that I knew that okay well I know it's a unique space and it's different than anything that I've experienced and you know any kind of travel and experience is I think um beneficial good thing. So that's all I had you know like That's as as much as I I had for it. I was like, I don't know how I feel about that thing. I don't know what that was. Um and uh but you know, and the decompression was real. Like I didn't want to answer my phone. I really didn't know. I didn't really didn't believe that it was a thing. And then like you know, my phone would ring and I would just look at it and be like no. You know, especially if there was someone, you know, if it was someone who had just gone to Burning Man, then it was a little bit more appealing to to answer the phone. own, but um because I didn't have the word for what I had experienced and I knew that's what they were going to ask me and I was still trying to process everything and so I didn't have any like talking to anybody who hadn't gone.

So did you feel kind of like a disconnect when you came back here and it was

a little bit I Yeah, I guess I was just like in my head about you know what what it was and how I felt about it and trying to get the words to explain it. Um So yeah, that's that was that was how I felt which you know I honestly I really appreciate that story because I've also interviewed a lot of people and I you know I think people can find some solace in my story where I wasn't someone who was jumping right into it or who was like this is home or always wanted to go and still you know find myself going seven years later and have done so much within the community. So when people say it's not my thing which everyone says you know, or people say, you know, I'm not sure, then, you know, I share my story because I it wasn't something that was I was super excited about or that I, you know, felt excited about afterwards, you like I don't, you know. So, um,

so was it the friends that you made or your friend or did they kind of pull you into or or was it that you kind of like went towards

you mean after Yeah. or

like in terms of like going back to Burning Man, you know? Oh, you know the there was two things I you know I did start to to process it and think of some things that happened there and you know you start to reflect on how those things impact you in life and you know I started to say well if I do go back then these are the things that I would do differently if I do go back then I'm going to do this instead or I'm not going to do that instead you I'm going to go out on my own or you know so there were things where I'm like oh why do I do that next time you know I'm I'm going to focus on this. Um, so that was one thing I started to say and then you know I I started posting you know my photography on my Instagram page and that is when a I got a lot of um, you know, inquiries man was and um, not only that but they didn't know that black people were out there and it wasn't that my photos all had people of color in them. They were diverse, but it was me that they had tangible access to that they could ask. And so after many, many of the same messages and DMs and po, you know, um that all said the same thing, then the idea Black Burner Project, which I didn't have the name for, started to like come into place. Um and so that's really what took me back the next year. Oh, okay. So, the Black Burner project, I was I was born like between your first and second years.

Mhm. Yeah. Yep. I was born it, you know, the like I said, I was still trying to figure out how I felt about did know was that with the influx of people who were reaching out to me all feeling like it wasn't a safe space for them or feeling like it um they weren't invited or they weren't allowed or that we weren't doing we weren't you know, we don't do those things that that shouldn't be the reason why people decide not to go.

Yeah.

And so I was like, I don't know how I feel about it, but that shouldn't be why you're not going. Especially for those who are like, I've known about it for 10 years or I've known about it for 20 years and I've known about it for and I've always put in my back pocket because I didn't think we were there. I never saw anyone. I didn't think we were invited. I thought it was invite only. I you know, like I didn't know if it was safe. Um and so I mean tons and tons of of it and And there was uh a gentleman, I don't know his name, and I I I don't know if I I've always tried to go back and find his um message to me, but he me and told me he had known about it for way longer than I had known about it. And he said he never went because of all those things.

And I was just like, man, I was like, I really don't know how I feel about it still. But like, who would he be had he had gone? Like he's someone who actually wanted to go.

What would have expanded? Who would he know? Where be now what would have opened you know like all those things that I know happened in general with travel but like obviously this take place like what would have what would have happened you know and to me that was really sad that those were the reasons why he didn't experience that and didn't get that opportunity for himself and so that was kind of the the moment where the the concept of it started to come into play but the moment where I knew I had to do it was like after his message. And so I just started to, you know, I was like, well, I know I don't know what this I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I want it to be bigger than my Instagram page, which means you have to put in a proposal for media. Um, and I knew that, uh, you know, I was just like, if they say yes, the proposal is pretty extensive. Um, and then if I can get a ticket and you you know, if those work out, then I'll go back. And so I started to work on the concept and the proposal and what what it meant to me and stuff and um and they said yes to it. And so that's what kind of that's what took me back my second year.

Yeah. So like when you people were like asking you questions and you were thinking about all this like would were there other resources that you'd found like other like forums or or groups of people who are already like talking about these questions? No, I mean they were looking they were literally looking for someone who looked like them to tell them it was okay. Like that was like people would say, "Is it okay? Will I be okay?"

And I understood it and I understood why I had to go through the feeling myself even though I had experienced travel. Like that's why I was so confused. I was like exper I go to I travel by myself. I'm never I never see other people who look like me. But I was having this experience feeling nervous and feeling you know, but I had to feel that in order to relate to the people who were going to one day reach out to me

and um you know, I just gave them my my perspective and um you know, I think that's all they really really needed, you know.

Well, I think the first step in any kind of like community organizing is just like it's starting a conversation, right? That's why like like 2017, 2018 was like there's not I mean There's not even like some like Reddit or some sort of like chat group or something.

And maybe there was, you know, but I think, you know, there wasn't

Wow.

There wasn't any visual identity out there.

Mhm.

Um, one and so it's likely that if you're going if there was a Reddit that there was likely weren't people of color

and um and you know like there was more more people out there than I expected, but it was still a small small group. group and um yeah, you know, having the the visual the visual aspect and the storytelling even though I was just telling a general, you know, environmental people I I met in my camp meets um allow for a different perspective and trust and you know, people just asked questions and I just, you know, answered as much as I could and was honest with with them, but it was also I could I could relate and could share how I felt going in and you know all of those things. So

I think that's where it all starts. Yeah, it's very powerful.

So So what 2018 you went back with the with the Black Burner project or

I didn't have a name yet. So it was just me that it's only been Yeah,

it's just been me. Um I went back with the idea and the know and the knowing of Um, okay. I'm going to take photos of people and I don't know how I'm going to do it and where am I going to see people. And so I just kind of I usually take a few days before I take my camera out um because I know it's such a intimate although vast space. It's like

um you know special and everything. And uh yeah and I took my camera out and it just so happened that I met some guys down the street and there were like ble three black gentlemen who I met And so they were like some of the first ones. Um Hank Willis Thomas was taking his afro pick out there and so I was really eager about going out and taking photos of that. So actually they were the first ones I took photos of him and team

uh once I found the afro pic. And then you know and then I would just walk up to someone and just be like hey I'm taking photo you know really nervous and scared um and tell them what I was doing and ask if they would be okay with me taking their portrait and then I would get their information and ask, you know, tell them I would reach out to interview them later. And that's kind of how it went. I just and I was to bump into so many people. Um maybe in my years of doing it now, there's been like one or two people who have said no, but like um

that's nothing. I've photo, you know, I've photographed hundreds of people at this point. So um so yeah, that was of how it went and I just and I got you know more comfortable as you know the days went on and

the group photo that was the first year of the big group photo um that happened I was rid I remember riding my bike and I said oh my gosh I want to do a group photo and then I completely just disregarded it because I was like that can't happen like who's going to come you know I'm going to tell people who's going to remember by the time they get two blocks a block down the street, you know, like who who's going to remember that

make like a date and time, right? You know, you're just like, "Ah, whoever shows up, right?" I mean,

but to me to me in my my head, I'm like, "No one is." It's like there was no, you know, text reminders. And I I I just assumed like, "Nah, I don't I don't think." But I was at my camp happy hour and I just I don't even know what made me mention it to to a group of people who I had just met um about this idea for a group photo uh and I forget his name, Javon or something some somebody who I just met was like do it and I was like oh you know and he was like you should totally do it like we'll come and you know and I was like will you tell people he's like we'll tell people we'll spread the word and just come up with a date time location and I was like okay and so I Friday, I think I said the man Friday the man at 6. And so they were like, "Okay." And so, you know, just left with that and, you know, went around and as I took photos of people, I did say like, "Hey, I'm doing a group photo." Um, you know, come. And that, you know, I remember leaving my camp that, I don't know, 5:00 and being really nervous that no one was going to show up and telling myself like Aaron if five people come or three people come like that's that's success you like exactly be proud of yourself you know

yeah

and yeah uh and even to the point where I saw two people walking I took photos of them and convinced them not to come because I didn't think anybody was going to go I was like you guys look like you're on your way somewhere like you have a destination like I'm doing this thing but there's probably not going to be anybody there so you know keep keep doing what you're doing

like a few yards away there were like 20 people waiting and I was like what? Um and so and you know someone was like oh let me go see if there's anybody else at the temp or at the temple and so people went and grabbed people and the same guy who who said you know who was encouraging was in film and so he helped me like we were like figuring out the lighting which direction what the formation I wanted it in. Um and I think about 35 people came with a few people who came afterwards and that was the first That was the birthing of it. And I think

it was special to watch everyone interact afterwards because people were so like, you know, they didn't know each other and it was obviously a special moment for them.

Yeah.

Way more special than I even knew. Um, and so I captured that and that was really when I was like, oh, it has to be this way every time. Like I have to just

come on Playa, not tell anybody where it's going to be and it's going to be through word of mouth because it's really special that how it how that all came together. Um and how people made it a priority for Friday at six, you know, for Friday,

you know, several days after they found possibly found out. Um and so that's that's when I was like, I'm doing this again. Word of mouth only. And that's it's been

Yeah. No, that's really good. Like do at the end of the week because if you're just like, we're gonna do it on Monday at like

Oh, yeah. No one's there one. But yeah,

way later, right?

But Yeah. But no, it's it's funny because like that's just kind of how like burner like organizing like works, you know? It's just like just

throw something out in the wind. I mean, when I started the Hawaii regional group here, it's like, you know, we like, "Oh, we're going to do this like this camping trip on this this beach." And I would be there by myself for like the first like four hours, and I was like, "Well, at least I'm having a good time, you know, and if like even one person showed up, I'd just be like, "Well, it's a success. There you go."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's it's funny like sometimes we like self-sabotage ourselves. It's like, oh no, no one's going to show up. Don't go. You know, but it's just I I don't know. It's sort of the nature of brain just to just throw it out there just like whatever happens, it happens, you know? And I guarantee you like

things are going to happen that you don't expect, right?

Of course. Of course. Yeah.

Now, I don't know how I would have felt if three people like I was telling myself that because I knew how I was going to feel. that I wish I had like the way my brain and my heart are like it just doesn't it's not that easy for me to let it go or in my perfectionism probably and you know and it also me putting myself out there in a way that I hadn't before you know so this this was you know not just a gathering it was my art it was my vision it was like all these things and at once that I was just trying to be you know being vulnerable and actually putting out there and so I wanted them, you know, I was hopeful that it would be more than what I might have thought it would be and it I definitely didn't there would be 35 people.

Yeah.

Um so so yeah, it was really beautiful to to witness that first one.

So it exceeded your expectations that it uh

Oh yeah.

sounds to me like you know lit a fire.

It did. It did. Yeah.

So how did it grow from there? What uh

uh Yeah. I mean you know when I got back and you know I wasn't even sure if I if I captured anything that I was going to like. I was like who knows what the what these are going to look like and you know I was able to I was I was happy with a good amount of the photos that I took and um I was like well I guess I have to make an Instagram page and what is the what is the name going to be? And so I went through that whole process and I'm not I'm not really great all the time with coming up with the name of something you know that's like I can have all the context and everything but the name game is what like keeps me back. Um but uh so I just thought of something quickly before I did overthink it too much and um

that's the best way to do it

and then you know and then posted it. Uh and it went through the year of editing and interviewing people and you know um talking to pe more people who would reach out. So it definitely started to take up a lot of time but I you know I was enjoying it uh as So the next year, you know, I was just like, I'm going to go back and do the same thing, I guess. And I didn't come up with the the, you know, where I was going to do the the group photo until I got on Playa again. And um I was like, I'm never going to share it on social media or beforehand cuz also it's it also has to do with like I want to get a feeling about where it's going to be. So um sometimes it's maybe a certain art piece or sometimes it's because the man is the easiest and it's just like how I feel. Um, and so I didn't, you know, I realized that things had got taken a turn when a lot of people were coming to is it that year? Yeah, 2019. A lot of people were coming to me to find me. And so I spent a lot of time in my camp because I almost like couldn't leave.

People were coming to find me. People were like, I've been like, you've been so inspirational or this means this much to me. And they were really pouring a lot into me and it was hard. It was actually really hard for me. Um, a good handful of of photos were in front of my camp and I didn't enjoy that. I was really annoyed by it because I like going out and finding people and being in random parts, but it didn't make any sense not to take photos of all the people who were coming to me. So I would just grab them and be like, hey, let's, you know, grab a quick photo. Um, and so that's when I was just like, okay, like this is different, you know? Um, to the point where my campmates were like, she's over there. Like every minute she'd be like, she's over there. And I'm like, what is going on? Uh, and so I and then when hear more people tell me about the group photo, um, then I was like, oh, well, obviously there's going to be more than 35 people cuz people didn't know who I was, you know. So, um either you knew and you didn't really you knew of me and you came to find me in my camp and then that was the first time you saw me or you just came up to me and you had no clue that I was the person that was throwing it. And so a lot of times my friend my friends would be like, "Oh, she's doing it." And so, um I had I had put a lot of time and thought into like, "Okay, well, I had these like inspo boards and like beforehand and like you know, all these things that kind of get me inspired around it and the thought of like, okay, there might be 60, 70, how am I going to communicate to them? How am I going to direct them? You know, how am I going to make it organized? Um, and to be able to like take a a snap, my voice is low, like all these things. Um, and I think that year I said the man uh at probably the same timeish, six. And I remember there was um I think it was a face with books inside. It was something with books and I was sitting and they had benches around it and I was sitting on it and I was so stressed cuz I was like, "Oh gosh, how am I going to direct people?" And I was using the little like dry sand like little pebbles to like put places and make little formations like, "Okay, I can use these words to like direct people." And this guy was like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm a little stressed and nervous." And you know, I told him He's like, "Well," he's like, "You're going to be okay." And he's like, "You know, it's not going to work out how you want it to." He's like, "But it's going to work out." And I was like, "Thank you." And um

that's in general for just about anything on the planet.

Pretty much anything, you know, but again, this is this is something that means a lot and it's my vision and I want it to, you know, it's like building a camp and nothing works, you know, like having the vision and like you don't have the parts, you know, like you go out there to make it how you envisioned it and so but I wasn't expecting the number of people that were there. So when I got there hundreds of people

hundreds

and hundreds hundreds of people and I was like oh gosh

yeah I mean like I someone had a bullhorn and I was like um you know like follow that person and had my friend Ra wave her hand and I was like I don't know what I'm going to do and I said follow her and I was at as you know I kind of run in front and as the whole crowd was behind me and I was like okay like what am I going to do and then I turn around and everyone just at the same time just like dropped into this formation and then I was like oh s*** like this is not what I wanted but this is so perfect and I just like great and I said a few things and then like you know I was like moving like bikes out the way and I had gotten my um my campmate to help me. Bikes everywhere and all these other people who were not people of color were like in the way and the shadows were in the way and their bikes were in the way and I was like moving them with my camera and you know yelled a few things to the to the to the group to encourage them and and then took the shot. And so the the shot from 2019 is literally everyone just getting down without any instructions and that's the shot I took.

Um was um you know it was like such a energy so many more people I don't know maybe there was 300 more plus 400 people there that year um

so after you took the photo was like the crowd just kind of like okay what's next

I mean I mean they you know they it was a m it was the same thing that happened the first time

everyone connecting and everything like I said people see me but they also still didn't see me. I'm like this little person, you know, and um I Oh, that's what I did. I had asked a another friend who was in a camp if they could host something afterwards. That's what I had done. And so I did say on the speaker phone like XYZ camp because I remember the first year that that um people were interested in deeper because they had just met and just had this moment. And so um So yeah, that was they had like something and people were playing the, you know, African drums and they had some food and um Yeah. So that was something that people could go to.

Yeah. Well, I mean I think you did it right. You started small.

So they started small,

right? And then

little expectations.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean also it's like you mean whatever you plan for it's just like the apply will make something else happen, you know, and it's just kind of organic and it's sort of natural and just sort of like one thing leads to another. And then I mean I'm surprised, you know, that people weren't like speech speech speech.

Yeah. The the third year I think that that's when that happened. I did say a little beginning for the second year and then the third year um that's when I my third let's see third year was 2022 because you know, COVID happened. So, the the second the my my the second um

group photo was 2019 and then you know

22

the world changed. Um but I still did I still did a lot around Black Burner Project during that gap because so much was

so much was happening around race and all these things. So I was extra busy actually with it and um A lot of camps were reaching out, a lot of camp leads were reaching out, the org was reaching out, like everybody um you know, wanting my insight, wanted my input, wanted my advice. Um and then the opportunity or the idea to take art, I don't even know where it came from, but it it came and I uh started the process of taking art. Um and so fast forward 20 22 was at my art piece and that's also when I reached out to um Robot Heart being like, "Okay, I know this is a pretty substantial art piece and people were really excited about it and also the crowd is getting bigger. I'm going to need some elevation and so maybe one of these art cars can show up for me and that will be like my ladder." And um

I had luckily connected with someone I think maybe I interviewed him, I don't remember. And Yeah, they were open to it. And so that was the first year that we kind of planned something more. And so they showed up and I was just like, you got to with no music on and you got to show up this way and then like play then like have a DJ and play, you know, like we'll have a party after. And that's kind of how that started. Um

so you said you you brought your first art piece. What did you bring?

Oh, there were two um 30foot portrait structures that could climb. And uh one was a man, one was female kicking and um one had audio that you could listen to and the other one you could climb all the way up to the top.

Uh and it was a beast to bring to fruition.

I was going to say two. I remember seeing the pictures of that and I was just like, yeah, I mean especially coming back from the east coast and the logistics and like

I mean you have to have like that whole camp and a team of people and

yeah I mean I didn't know what I was getting myself into and no one told me but you know I luckily I had done so much work um already within the community just by like everything I did with Black Burner Project that I was gaining a lot of access to people and people who were just willing and open to like having a conversation or reaching out to me and just saying what they felt about the Um, and so, you know, I I don't think that if I had hadn't had done Black Burner Project and I just showed up wanting to do the art piece, it would have been a different experience for me. Um, so I was I was lucky in that sense, but I had also that was 5 years of of intense work that I had been that I had been put in and you know, but I think it it showed trust within the community. And so, um, although I wouldn't say fundraising was easy at all, Um, I got a lot more support because of because of that and the trust in and just the mission behind the the piece. Um, and then I just started to reach out to people that I had met, you know, throughout the years that I was like, "Oh, he does this and oh, he does that and oh, like, you know, let me see if they'd be interested in this idea." And um, all I knew was that I needed the photos to be forward facing. Like I didn't want them inside. anything that you had to find them and that they had to be big because I wanted people to look up to them and I wanted us as black people portraits to take up space in a space that you know we haven't been able to yet. And so those were the the things that I wouldn't back down on. So you know we had a lot of team meetings. There was a lot of discussions around you know plan B's and this and I was like I just need y'all to help me figure out how to make them 30 feet. And

you know, I would say um many days where I cried and many days where I called uh you know, a a mentor that I was lucky enough to have who had taken art out there and you know was able to get support from them in that way. Um but I was extremely blessed to have the team that I did. It was really important for me to have um predominantly black team or for people of color, but you know, but it needed to be diverse. And so every from everyone from everywhere was on there, architects, engineers, I mean, I didn't even know till sometime later that I needed like, you know, an electrical person. I was like, an electrical person, you know, like, you know, and like leading a team for the first time like that I hadn't done. And you know, you're leading, but you're this is your thing. You know, you're dealing with volunteers. And so

Oh, yeah.

You're you're like the manager. of 20 departments at the end of the day, you know, and if if there's no one there to do it, then you're doing it. So, I I learned a lot. Um, and it was a extremely hot and dusty year, but somehow the plot has been on my side in so many ways, like every year. Um, and so we got it up in time. It was a huge, huge success. So many I got so much amazing like stories from it and um and there was no dust storm during the group photo which I'm like as many dust storms that there were like they anything could have happened. It's like clear as day you know photo then. Um so yeah it was it was a very like mindblowing experience that took me a really long time to recover from and come down from and yeah. Oh

yeah. I mean we were talking before like for me like I didn't I had like a big like 13 year gap so my first year back was 2024 but

just in just seeing the stuff that was publicized and on the website uh definitely your artwork was quite prominent because like you just described it and I was just like I I wasn't even there you know but it's like oh I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah.

So did this kind of also morph into like a whole camp too or or

did not that was one thing I was like I'm not going to camp. Um no so I was lucky enough again to you know meet people or be connected to people who really really wanted to support me and so um and that also meant supporting my team that I was creating and building. And so there were two camps that came together that acted as our um our um art support camp.

Mhm.

And so my team, you know, pretty much most of the team camped together within those established camps and they were very generous. I mean, they provided so much. I mean, even before we got to Playa, you know, there were so many um things that they helped us with. Um, but you know, there was food and they helped us, you know, brought food to us during build and you know, it was a nice camp so we had showers and And

it was it was a nice camp to be a part of for such an intense you know year for me. So um in terms of like just access to stuff um but and great food and you know warm showers so that was nice.

Yeah.

Um so yeah it wasn't a camp. A lot of people did think it was you know they reach out and think it's a camp but I'm being pulled into so many directions already mentally that I was I I don't want it. I don't want to camp. And I know that It's, you know, it's a lot of responsibility and even if I just hand it over to someone else, it would still be under my name and under, you know, like there have to be standards and I I don't want to I don't want to have to add additional.

I think one of the common mistakes that people make with Bernie man is just they just go like bigger bigger bigger bigger and then just bust,

right?

You know, so what you start is just like, oh, group photo like 25 people, you know, and then now it's hundreds of people. Now it's like we're doing 30 foot tall sculpture, you know, like we're going to have a camp and we're going to have a village of 300 people. We're going to have this art cart and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa like, you know, it's like it's like focus on, you know, it's like what we do well and what people like and they they come back for.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, and to me I see, you know, Black Burner Project is a separate project from the installations and so mentally and even even about three kind of angles when I'm out there.

Um, and goals and missions and like mindset. So, I'm just like, "Okay, this is what I got to do daily." And then the art piece and then like the group photo, I got to make sure that this is happening and that's happening. Um, and so I did realize how much capacity it all took.

And, you know, I wasn't really having a burn and my mind the group photo which was usually on a Thursday.

Um, and so for that year, you know, I had Friday and Saturday and then like we were taking down the art piece. So, that was like the only time where I didn't have to think about anything specifically was Friday.

Um, and then making sure I'm gathering the folks and getting organized to like take the art piece down and the logistic side of of that. Yeah.

So, the the last couple years, 23, 24, 25, I mean, it's pretty much uh what was that like or did you guys do anything new or different or is pretty much uh

so 23 I took off.

Um I yeah it was a good decision. Um and so so right so I took off you know I was still heavily you know posting interviewing people and you know all of that stuff and a lot like you said a lot of it also had to do with I was I would also be I also started helping people get to play I like getting them access to tickets and you know, spreadsheets of people and it was a lot. Um, and so I took off from Burning Man, but still actively doing all those things when I, you know, wasn't going, but I was still getting people tickets and

all the things. Um, and then 24 I said I wouldn't take an art piece. And then I felt like 22 wasn't complete cuz there was supposed to be three. And I was like, I just need to get the third one out there. And we technically had the piece, we just didn't finish it. And so I was like, he needs to get out there. And so I started the process of like what what a 2.0 version would be. Um, and it was big. Um, I had this mission of like um internal healing space and it was really about a journey. So using, you know, the senses as elements of light and sound and all this stuff. Um, and I think it was April or or so where, you know, fundraising wasn't going as well and I had to give myself a deadline on, you know, what I was going to do. And so I had a date and I told my team that, you know, I would let them know. And um so I was like, I can't do it. Have to pivot. And um I was always going to bring barber shops. The idea for a barberh shop chair, no, I was always going to bring barber shop chairs. I don't know where it came from. It came to me years ago. And I remember asking a friend like, "Hey, can you help me find barber shop chairs?" And never happened, but it was just like in the air. And so for that year, I was still going to find them. And I was just going to put them either inside the piece or at camp. I really had no like I was like maybe y'all can like have a, you know, some session around them at some point, but there was no real concept around them, but I just wanted to have them. And you know, as I started to say like, you know, we can't, you know, like this going to have to pivot, I was like, maybe we just build out around the barberh shop chairs. And I was like, you know, it still has the intimacy like I like I can make it about the intimacy and the healing and the vulnerability that I wanted in the big space, but it would actually be intimate. So the same concept and mission So, it was easier for me to give up the big piece idea because the mission was still the same and I was still going to be able to gift that vision to people. Um, and so that's how the barberh shop, you know, came about and it was also a tribute to my brother who had gone through his, you know, been going through his own mental health journey and I was, you know, his caretaker and just understanding the need for safe spaces for men, especially black men,

um,

for healing. and for vulnerability and for support. That's really where that idea came from. And so that's what started. So we had to flip everything around and everything changed from where I was going to build to, you know, like everything changed. So it wasn't necessarily that the costs were different because some spaces that were some things that were going to be in kind were now not inind because it didn't make sense for me to, you know. So um so yeah, I mean to be able to like have a team who was supportive with it and was able to help me just turn it around and, you know, redesign everything, redo everything, you know, um with a limited amount of time, very limited. So,

wow. So, 24 and um did you go back with 25 or this year?

Yeah, but that was uh very last minute and it was a secret. I told like I didn't tell anyone. I didn't want anybody to know. was just going to go out there for myself uh because I hadn't been out there for myself since my first year and that counts. But

yeah, I I've know a number of people who like work for Burning Man, volunteered and and they work hard and they they drive themselves into the ground and they volunteer and they do all these things and then it comes to a certain point where they're just like this year I'm going to Burning Man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe next year I'll do something else, but like this year I just need one year. Yeah.

Yeah. So that was that was me and it was last minute and it was a lot of things happened where my time was cut really short but um

you got to go with the flow. I mean I think that's what how Brandy man kind of teaches us you know it's not like the uh the well planned and executed festival.

No for sure for sure. It's it's definitely not but there were some other factors in there that like just weren't going with the flow type of factor. So I I felt like it was a good I think the I was like, "Oh, yeah. You haven't been here. So, here's eight years of like lessons and learnings for you." You know, like that's what it poured on me for, you know, the three barely three days that I was there. I got a lot.

Um,

but I did bring the sunshine, so I I missed all the the weather. So, I at the end of

Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

All right. Um, well, I guess we should get to our second question.

Oh.

Uh, so yeah. So, so where does it all begin for you? It's like, uh, what's your your background?

Like, but you're pretty like journey, man.

Yeah, I well I started off in finance and then um yeah, started off with the finance degree, went into finance um you know, New York City finance role.

Wow.

And um

that's a tough life, right? Like

I mean luckily I wasn't well I don't know if I'm luckily but I wasn't you know on the floor the trading floor or anything but I was communicating with those people you know so but it was interesting and I didn't like it. Um, but I also got laid off during the recession and then found my way back in and then, you know, it was just a time for that industry. Um, and so it was kind of just in New York figuring it out and that's when I picked my camera back up cuz I was self self-taught. I taken one class and then by the time I picked it back up, it wasn't film anymore. It was digital and I was like, you know, so I just wandered around the city kind of teaching myself and you know, taking pictures of friends and um you know, had some cool inter even though I was older internship opportunities for some really big um photographer people. And that was really it. Like at some point I was like, "Oh, I would love to have like a billboard in Times Square, but I really didn't have any concept of me, you know, being a full-time photographer." Um and then it was actually that trip to the Philippines that kind of opened my eyes to storytelling and um you know travel photography which kind of encompasses everything portraiture and environmental and food and you know just the story of the environment or the experience. And so that's kind of where I was like oh you know I'd love to do that. Um and then it was kind of just rolling from there. You know when I when I was in um Maryland when I moved to Maryland I promised that if I had been chosen for this, you know, this event as an artist that I would take myself seriously. And when I was, that's kind of when I started to, you know, I had to keep my promise. So, you know, I went into weddings and, you know, slowly learned.

Um,

so you ditched finance and you just went dove in.

I mean, it ditched me is what I'd like to say. Like, it just didn't like me. So, it, you know,

wow,

that's so I was kind of thrown in was just trying to figure it out. Um, you know, It's been, you know, create the creative road is a hard one. So, um, but yeah, I just, you know, kept going and kept learning and and then Burning Man was the the thing that I think tied everything together. So, if I could have found a job that did what I did at Burning Man, even though it was one

Well, you didn't the billboard in Time Square, but you got

No, but it was definitely Billboard sculptures at Burning Man that like all of their publications.

Yes. Yes. They Yes, for sure. So,

I thought of I thought of that, too. Um,

so yeah, cuz it, you know, it inc it in encapsulated like portraiture and storytelling and helping people and, you know, um, so many different creative things, uh, travel and, you know, and then who knew I would be taking actual installation work like that was the last thing that was on my mind when the idea came to me the idea was really small you know and that's where I always tell people like it's small it has to start off small because if it was grand then

but also you had the

you know ad adventurism to to follow that right you know because it's like I started with this small thing and then the crumbs were leading this direction but like it was you that followed those crumbs right

yeah I mean I think what happened was this you know as people started to reach out the idea came and it couldn't leave. Like it just kept like messing with me and I finally was like, "Okay, like let me just give into this this thing that's nagging me, you know, and as things started to come into place, you know, like I said, um then it was I just, you know, figured it out. And in my perspective, I didn't see it as bold and courageous and I was scared and I didn't know what I was doing. And most of the time look felt like I looks like I didn't know what I was doing where other people you know, say something completely different than what my experience was in it, you know.

But you didn't say no. You didn't stop and be like,

"No, I didn't say no. I didn't say no for sure."

But I didn't know while when I didn't say no how bold and courageous and and you know that was, you know, so

um at the time. So yeah, that's that's kind of the quick quickie.

Yeah. Yeah. Well um kind of naturally guesses the last question. impact and influence of Burning Man on your life. I mean, kind of already started talking about that.

Yeah. Um, I mean, I think it's been super expansive in all the ways. And I think um, you know, just just the people that I I know today, you know, from that community and from people who, you know, reached out and support and people who I have access to to call is pretty mindblowing, you know, and Um, yeah. I don't I don't know if I always think about it, but it's it's been really I don't know, expansive is all the the word I can say. And I've grown in so many ways. And like I said, when I when I was going there, I know why my friend felt like I was I needed to go because she saw those things in me. I'm pretty sure that um I was too scared to, you know, to do myself. And And which is why I never start this story without mentioning her. Even if I don't say her name, like yes, I had to say yes, but it only happened because she saw something and she offered such a like a kind gift.

And um I feel like she probably knew I wouldn't say no. Like I was I usually took on a challenge, but also you know what a what a gift for someone to give and to kind of see all of that and you know Um, and so I think it just allowed me to see how bold I was and how much saying yes to the to things have ripple effects, especially the really scary things. And then also how, you know, small something might be that's really meant to be big, you know, and you might not have an idea um at all. And then sometimes I'm like, you don't have the idea cuz it might scare you triple times that amount if if the big vision was already there. So, like it takes you through the process to get you where actually the the the bigger part was meant to be. And so to me going out there to take photos seems such so small. So when the impact was so grand and having the evidence of people reaching out to me telling me what that impact was to them like that was really unexpected even though that's what I wanted for people you know I wanted it to be this thing that brought that kind of eliminated or made smaller the barrier of to Bernie man for people who didn't feel included and then to also just get real perspective of what burners were experiencing out there in general. They just happened to be from people of color but you know there there weren't that many real stories out there in a way that was done with powerful visuals and also black people you know so

actually one thing that's been um I ask you about was that you said you'd be doing interviews because so it's not just the photographs so do you

so does do you have like uh you do like audio interview or a podcast or like a written.

Yeah. So both. So when I first started I was just doing like recording phone interviews so that I could use um you know quotes and parts of their story when I posted their imagery because I always felt like that was you know hearing the human story from the human was like the most relatable. And so I would do that and I would also pull quotes when I did any like photo exhibitions. Um Um, and then during 2020 when we weren't having anything, I was like, well, let me start to do IG live. So, I started to do them weekly. Um, weekly IG live interviews that I called stories from the dust. And, um, that lasted probably up until I started maybe even through some of 2022. Um, and stopped when I needed to recover. Uh, so, so yeah. So, I've definitely done a few hundred interviews at at this point. Um

Oh,

it's incredible.

Mhm.

So, where where does the Black Burner project go from here or what plans do you have now?

Oh, I you know, I'm I'm still figuring it out. I think it's a um a cool inflection and turning point. So, I'm I'm I probably won't do another art piece out there and it probably will exist in a different capacity so that I can focus on things that are be staining. for myself um and you know work on me. Uh but I'm still figuring out what you know, Black Burner Project looks like. And so um you know, I'm taking it's not as easy. It's it's been I've been so tied to it and it's been such a a passion project and I've given so much of myself to it, but um but I think I've got it to a I've brought it to a place that was far beyond what I intended it for and I'm really happy with. what I was able to accomplish and all the other people who who jumped in to be a part of the journey and to like to be able to make me make it even bigger.

So, um so yeah, so that's to be determined. I'm sure there'll be like a book or maybe a film or something out at some point. Um so at at the very least a book. Um

well also it see

you must have like inspired other people you know that you know they've come out there and then see what you're doing. It's just like, you know what, I've got a vision, you know, it's like

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that was a part of it. It's like, you know, see, not only being a woman of color and then having a um a predominantly diverse team, I I brought on people who I was like, you know, I may I'm not a fabricator. I'm going to I'll get my like you can teach me anything.

Also, what I bring is connections. And so, like the people that I have access to because of what I was able to build prior to this you now have access to and so you know people from my team have now went on to create their own works and doing all of that and the people who helped me raise money helping them raise money the people who helped me build like all these things that you know I wanted that's that was what I hoped for um and you know that the access to people and things are are you know standing in the way or the lack of of so many people um yeah and then art piece itself, you know, not only were they bold portraits of people of color, I was hopeful and they were like a beacon for people that it was encouraging for others to like bring something to life, you know, um, you know, so people reached out and, you know, give them behind it, but also

so rewarding. Yeah. I mean, just to see like people that you've worked with or people you've inspired to go on, it's like, oh yeah, and then this person's done this and this person's done that and it's It's not just a flash in the pan, you know? It's like, well, we did this thing and it was cool and that was that.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's also really cool to like a few people from my team who have now brought pieces and are now in a totally different space, you know, like they hadn't been to Burning Man in a while. And I was lucky enough to have a an an interesting enough project that they felt like it was the time for them to come back. And, you know, so much has shifted for from them saying yes to to it. They didn't have to say yes. They didn't have to believe in it, you know, like um but they did. And and to now see where their journey because of that, because of their yes um has been really cool, too, you know, and now the the increase in people of color le projects has been awesome to see. Uh so yeah, it's it's been really humbling and, you know, magical and been really cool to

think about and try out some of the regional events or international events.

You want to bring in 30 foot sculptures to like

I'm I mean like I'm a burner, but I'm not like Yeah. I'm just like that's these past eight years took a lot out of me and I'm I'm that's all I got.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Also have to have like a a healthy like, you know, work and and burn balance or life and burn Yeah,

that's what I've noticed like with for me taking 13 years off to raise my son, you know, it's like life intrudes. I mean, there there there's more to life than

Right.

Yeah. So, now that's that's where I'm at. That that part.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a journey, you know. It's like

writing the book as we're reading it.

Yes. Yeah.

Right. Well, I think we're about almost hour 15. Um, anything else? anything you want to plug any uh any website or anything or

um you can always look at Blackunner

Black Burner Project um on Instagram uh or Facebook uh haven't been as um active on it lately, but you can still find all of the um the videos, the interviews, and the portraits there. Um and the Facebook page and um my personal um creative and photography website um is Aaron E R I N D-shaw which is S as in Sam H as in henry A.com. So Aaron-Shaw um.com.

All right.

And yeah, so you can find my just you can find Burning Man stuff there, but you can find all my other works. And

if anyone other things contact you or they can look there and like oh awesome

and my my personal page Instagram page is a photo chick so I can be easily contacted through that one or black burner project um Instagram page

all right well thank you so much this has been an amazing interview

thank you thanks for like thanks for interviewing me thanks for asking thanks for having me go back to memory lane that That was fun.

That was my pleasure.

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