EP 48 Joseph Buchman

Episode 48 with Joseph Buchman is out now! He is a former professor and census volunteer, who details his transformative journey within the Burning Man community. The narrative follows his transition from a grieving, skeptical Scout Master to a dedicated participant after a religious-like experience at the Temple helped him heal from a family tragedy involving suicide. Central themes include the healing power of communal art, the logistical complexity of the Black Rock City Census, and the environmental ethics of Playa Restoration (Resto). Ultimately, the source serves as a deep dive into how the event’s Ten Principles, specifically gifting and participation, can fundamentally reorient a person’s worldview and facilitate profound interpersonal reconciliation.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show.

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. a burning man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Is that an alien? No, it's just that Andy. Today our guest is Joseph Bookman. Pronounced that right? Hey, man.

Got it. Now, it's funny cuz we actually before we got on the air. I should probably do this more often. It's like it's like how how do you pronounce your name? I was like, I know how to pronounce your name. But, uh, yeah. So, welcome. So, okay. So, let's start at the beginning. What was your first year at Burning Man? What got you to go to Burning Man?

I I believe I'm unique in this. Um, I went to Burning Man uh because I got fired from a volunteer position as a scout master to take a boy scout troop to the 100th anniversary of the founding of scouting in the United States Jamberee.

Oh wow.

In Washington DC and and I I'd been running that troop for a year, year and a half. Uh we actually got so many members we split into into two different troops and um it was here in Salt Lake City and I'm not a member of the of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Uh and I think that was the only uh troop where leadership um wasn't part of of the LDS church. And by by the way, I heard your uh your um Hawaii regional that on the day of the event.

Oh,

I guess you discovered the land was or you knew it was owned by

Yeah. So, that kind of a thing happened to me. That felt really familiar.

Ah, okay. So, a little background story for the I don't think we ever really talked about this on the show. Um that was cuz I started the Hawaii regional 2002 and then uh retired around 2012. And and so the last event that kind of swan song for going out was going to be we we were looking for years and years like for 10 years for a suitable place to do a festival on Aahu. Like we had done some on the big island,

right?

And it's Hawaii is just a difficult place because it's it's everything is just so expensive and

it's so transitory like people come and people go, you know, it's it it's hard to kind of like keep anyone here, you know, and so we found this amazing property and uh and we work with them and we signed a contract and everything and we knew it was on like a LDS, you know, land. Uh but um we were assured everything was fine and all the eyes are dotted and the tees were crossed and you know we we were doing our due diligence and we you know made some uh publicity about it and we had some interviews and so I think it was like 2 3 days before the event started like you know there was like a article in the paper about it and then like the the the the LDS church was just like wait what now Burning Man and they you know the click click click tight went to quickly went to like you know YouTube and then they they saw some some you know unsavory videos and they were just like oh this here our land no basically said you know it's like we don't care that you know you have a contract we they don't care. It's like if you let people onto this property, you personally will be arrested,

right?

And I was already kind of like bowing out at this point. Like I've been attempting to retire for a couple years. Like my son was a couple years old, like four years old at that point. And I was like, I I just don't need this kind of a****** anymore, you know?

That's uh covered, I believe, in episode two where where you tell your personal history, the the hourlong uh interview you do of yourself. So, I listened to that and that caught my attention because it felt familiar. And I, by the way, let me put in a disclaimer up front, too. I love living in Utah. There's a lot I I I like here.

Um, what happened to me with the Boy Scout Council, which by the way, is now gone. You know, that the church dropped scouting and all those professionals that I felt betrayed by or I believe unemployed or or or working for scouting elsewhere in in a different career.

Um, I actually have served as a non-member volunteer in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church service mission and and what got me doing that was digitizing um history. So their their family search library, formerly known as the family history library, formerly known as the church genealogy library. Their family search library is an extraordinary gift to everybody in the planet. They they started sending missionaries out over 120 years ago to photograph county records all over the world. And then a lot of those records were destroyed in floods and fire and so that they have preserved history. I am an unreserved fan. So I want to put that out there up front.

But but what happened was I had a Buddhist as an assistant scout master and his son and a couple other non-Christians and and my assistant scoutmaster, one of them, the other one uh was LDS and he insisted that that the troop have prayers to Jesus Christ. And and I said, "No, we do not all say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. So we're not going to have prayers that end in we say these things in the name of Jesus Christ cuz We don't we we are not chartered by a church. This is Jambre troop. And I was on solid ground nationally. Well, not so much in Utah, apparently.

So, this guy went to the the parents of the scouts that were members of the of the church and said, "We can't have this non-member doing this thing." And and so I got a call that said from from the scout executive, um, "If we fire this guy, uh, we will lose more scouts than if we fire you." And I said, "The fear of loss is not a moral touchstone. I learned in scouting for making a difficult ethical decision. That's a direct quote. I I remember that just boiled up out of me. I was grieving and angry in that moment and I said, "Are you sure you want to do this?" And they said, "It's already been done." So, I didn't have a chance to plead my case. And um and I was hurt. I I I had actually um uh been awarded the National Distinguished Service Award for Scouting. I refused to go accept it, but if you go Google me, you'll find it out there.

And so scouting was a big deal to me. And so to have this happen was just um an earthquake. And um I was shaken and upset. And I had had friends for years saying, "You should go to Burning Man." And um 2010 about a week before the event uh out in Nevada, Black Rock City, because Burning Man is so much more than Black Rock City.

Mhm.

Um I bought a ticket Now, if it had been 2011, I never would have gone to Burning Man. We wouldn't be having this conversation because that was the last year until recently that you could uh get a ticket during the event, right?

Up up up up till co man, wait lists and bidding and aftermarket and all that. Uh so it's kind of a miracle that I went if those two things hadn't happened. So I um I started packing and packing and packing and delayed and delayed and delayed and and I didn't get out there, I think, until Tuesday of 2010. I didn't want to read about it. I I didn't want to look at the who, what, where, when, what happened guide. I love people call it the what happened guide because you read about all the stuff you missed when you got home, right?

And um I just wanted to get lost in the desert. And um I had told friends earlier, yeah, I don't want to do Burning. Why would I do Burning Man? I I I don't like that kind of music. I don't do drugs. I'm h I'm Joe Eagle Scout, right? What are you Burning Man? Are you out of your mind? Um and they're like, you just don't understand. So I thought, okay, I'll and I I wanted my wife to go with me and she said, "No, no, you go check it out on your own first." And so I got there either Tuesday or Wednesday, I don't remember. Found a little spot. I did not know about 2:00 and 10:00 and subwoofers, but I I learned about that because I got cold, right? You didn't want to know.

I think it was at 9:45 and my van just shook for the next six days.

So you went by yourself? Like you you went by yourself?

I went by myself. myself. No theme camp, just open camping. Wound up at 9:45 and somewhere I can find it on the satellite image um of that year. But um and no idea what's going on. I was camped across from Camp Hot Mayo. Do you know those guys out of Reno?

They just live to serve Irish car bombs. And this is how sheltered I was. They they invited me to come to their free giveaway of Irish car bombs. They're like, "We're doing Irish car bombs later." I thought it was fireworks. I I had no idea that was a drink. I didn't drink. I I discovered I quite liked an Irish car bomb a few hours later. But um I'm just there and I thump thump and the whole thing and and I'm like what what am I doing here? I don't want to be here. Um this isn't my tribe. I I you know and I just got on my bike and and uh thought I'm going to get lost. And I headed out into Deep Play, not knowing that was Deep Playa, not knowing anything about the city or street design or anything.

I see this thing thing over there and I and I bike over to it. Um I didn't know there was a temple. I I knew there was going to be a man that got burned, but and that was the was that the temple of holiness with a W that year? It was designed by women and it was the first temple, I think, to be designed by women, but it was kind of a an open mountainscape. It wasn't anything ethereal or fancy. It was a bunch of sticks kind of in a pile, very very rustic and and beautiful in that way. And I got off my bike and I thought, you know, what the hell is this? And I'll never forget this. This moment began to change my life in a profound way, which which I have not gotten over and don't expect. Oh, sorry about that. Don't expect I ever will. Um, I walked up to the temple and I read, "Dear Danny," on the wall in Sharpie, "I was only your dad for 18 months and then you died. I wonder if I will ever live again. Man, I'll never forget that. Um, and I I wonder to this day, how did Danny die and and what happened to his dad and is that guy okay? And and I stood there um thinking, you idiot, you're upset that the Boy Scouts hurt you? The Boy Scouts hurt you? I mean, what a stupid sentence, right? I don't have any problems. And then I I walked in inside the temple and started to realize what it was. And I sat down uh cuz I my knees were shaking and um just listened to the whispered conversations of people passing by just sitting there thinking, "You judgmental a******." Um you thought Burning Man was loud music and drugs and random sex and orgies or whatever bias you and I used to teach media. I'm a professor of marketing. I I know how that stuff gets distorted and how people reposition others to make their

their worst characteristics get highlighted because that's what gets eyeballs and eyeballs get advertisers and all that crap

or the news me. Yeah. So, I knew there was likely distortion around Burning Man, but I was just in a numinous sacred space like I had never experienced with just the sky open above me.

I don't know how long I sat there, but a lot of the grief and pain just vanished as I tentacles of empathy reached out to connect with other people who were sharing about dead parents or grandparents or one year I remember there was a wedding dress in the temple and it's like you left me standing at the altar in this dress.

Wow.

And I'll never forgive you but when the dress burns up I'm gonna forget about you. Something like that.

And you know there's anyone who's been to Burning Man that's encountered the temple

has probably read 10,000 messages. all moving these these tattered threads where you wonder what the rest of the story is. I I really do hope someday maybe this podcast will do it for Danny's dad to reach out and and and finish that story. So, and then I walk out the other side of the temple and I have no idea if it was an hour, if it was a afternoon, if it was 15 minutes. I don't know. Time stopped. And I walk out the far side of the temple and there's the art car, the porch.

Oh, yeah. Well, describe For any listeners, you might not know it.

Oh man, it's indescribable. I mean, this is why Burning Man is a religious experience in the sense of it can't be communicated in words, right? It's got to be experienced. The words only hint at the tapestry and the depth and the light and all of that. But but here is a Appalachian house from East Tennessee, right out of Beverly Hillbillies. Front porch, rocking chairs. uh being being pulled by a I don't know 1890s tractor if they made them that long ago, but rusting for at least a hundred years, chugging along and and then it's towing an outhouse behind it and there's people on the porch sitting in the rocking chairs and it's blasting uh Dolly Parton.

Oh, awesome.

Might have been take this job and shove it or work 9 to5 or I don't know what. And I come out of the temple in this deeply moved emotional space of what have I got to feel grief about? I I have a I have a an easy life and and I haven't had a child die and we have four children. How would I ever get over that? And and thinking this, you know, and then here's the porch and I'm just like working at 95.

Where the f*** am I? You know, it's like what? What? So I go running I run around the outside of the temple. I get on my bike. I catch up with the porch and I see the other side. Uh, so one side of this moving art car is a porch. The other side's a working Appalachian kitchen. They've got an oven going running on propane and they're handing out chocolate chip cookies.

Wow.

Like somebody just gave me a warm chocolate chip cookie in the middle of nowhere. Like mana from heaven if you want.

Well, nothing tastes as good as like when you're just out in the middle of nowhere and everything. the kindness of the gifting.

Like if you ever been gifted fine dining, like that makes it taste better, right?

Oh, yeah.

In that state of gratitude and wonder. And then um and then I fell in love with Burning Man. I mean, that was it. I'm like, I've got to I got to search out every nook, every cranny. What is this place? Who are these people? And and then I wandered across a camp I've never seen again called Laam the Flambe in French, the burning man.

And it was a uh It was a five-star Michelin rated restaurant

with like a 16 course meal

and they had built this huge dining room with a fireplace and a a somalier and and servers all decked out in tuxedos.

Wow.

And they were picking four burners at random. I think it was four four burners at random every day to serve this ridiculous meal to. And then they had the matrae standing at a at a podium who was rudely turning everyone else away for not having a reservation. That's awesome. That was the art. like go away you not to welcome him you did to not have your res. So I said and then they were serving free derbs. So I got like a toothpick with a single pee on it with maybe a bit of wasabi or something just these ridiculous tiny portions and I'm laughing hysterically and I'm like are you guys culinary artists or are you actors? I couldn't tell. And eventually one of the guys came out. We had a conversation and they were from Vancouver and they were a troop of actors and I've never seen them again but I'll never forget them.

And And um

that's a great bit. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

I didn't get invited in uh for the for the big dinner, but but they did candidly tell me that this was performance art. It was right near Center Camp, too.

So, um without telling every detail of 2010 because this will be a 20our podcast.

Skip ahead. Laying I'm laying in my camper van and and thinking, what do I have to write at the temple? I don't I don't know what to write. I don't know what to write. I found a Sharpie. And I thought about um writing about my mom who had passed away or or other friends. And um I didn't know but I knew I wanted to write something on on the wall of the temple. And and have you ever had this experience as an author of feeling you're reading the words on the page as you type or or or scribe that you're more the reader than the author? Like you're in that state of I'm not really creating this. I'm just in the flow. Right.

Yeah. Yeah,

Richard Bach writes about it and and um Ray Bradberry wrote about it. Like you get in this state as an author of feeling you're more the the witness to what you're writing than the than the creator. Like if you're in that in that state. Well, I was very much in that state at Burning Man. Now, I was pretty sleepdeprived from the thump thump thump and the shaking of the van, the subwoofer,

but no drugs, no alcohol, none of that. And I go out to the temple and I just stand in front of this blank space. And I watch my hand write, "Dear Mark, when you committed suicide, you didn't just kill yourself. You killed off whoever I would have become if you had not done it. Now I'm married to your widow, and I'm dad to your two little girls, and I love all three of them more than I can say so much so I wish you had not done it. And then I just stood there and started to sob.

Wow.

And I meant it. And um um then I wrote, "God damn you and God bless you." And then um after a while I biked away and um Like the next morning, I woke up and I thought, "What did I write at the temple?" I couldn't remember exactly what I wrote. Right.

So, I go back out there uh to get a photo because I know they're going to burn up the temple. They're going to block it off. I think it was Saturday by the time I went out there. And um there's people reading the wall, right? And so I think, well, I'm going to stand back and watch how people interact with with what I wrote. And some people walk by and I want to grab them and go, "No, wait. Read. You can't just walk by the temple. Read the temple."

What do you think of this one right here?

Not just mine, but all of them. You know, and um and other people were there. And then I got chills because I I I wondered if Danny's dad had been standing behind me 3 4 days earlier. How how dry was that ink? Was he there doing what I'm doing now? And so I got this like who's standing behind you thing going on.

Mhm.

And Um, I don't if you read Carlos Castano back in the day.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Castenega wrote, "Always live as if death is about to reach out and touch you

from behind on your left shoulder." Just

that's empowering. Death is empowering.

And um so um so the man burns. It's this incredible party and I'm just like, "Oh, wow. What?" Indescribable. And I'd got right up to the line. I got there like 2, three hours because I wanted to be right there on the on the rope and you know and the rangers there looking at me not looking at the thing and there was I think a delay that year from the dust but they burn the man and the fireworks and the whole thing and I'm like this I've got to get my wife out here I got to get my kids out here I got to bring everybody out here the boy scouts need to learn from a burning man

how to run a camp this is this is incredible and um the next night is the temple burn and uh um absolute silence that year. 40 maybe 40,000 people. I think I think the city was 50,000 in 2010.

And um I felt like my wife's first husband, the guy who committed suicide, Mark, I felt him behind me. Like I had the sense he was just there. I was afraid to turn around cuz I was afraid I might actually see him. And um What I felt or almost heard in words, so hard to describe, was I was overwhelmed with his gratitude. I also felt like it was a commissioning from him, but I was overwhelmed with this sense of commissioning for my wife's first husband um that we would work together to minimize the effect of his suicide on his daughters. And I'm I'm thinking that watching the temple turn to ash and um I had hated him. I mean, who does that? Cindy Cindy um had told him uh she was pregnant with her second child on Valentine's Day and and he kills himself on March 9th. And I'd spent my whole time I did not know them. I didn't meet Cindy until a year and a half later. Um and um I hated him. I hated him. I hated him. Um, we got married. We lived in the house where he had killed himself out in the garage. We sold that house. We bought the house I'm talking you from now. I I just I wanted didn't want to look at his pictures. Didn't want anything around, you know. It was awful. And um, the gift I got from Burning Man was I left with all that hate vaporized. And and and to be a little bit extreme, feeling like I had a guardian angel who was my wife's dead first son. man. And I I just remember driving home thinking, "You need to find a psychiatrist.

This is what happened to me.

How am I going to tell Cindy about this?" I stopped at the Buttonpoint rest area. It's now closed on I80 headed back towards Salt Lake. And there was a couple there. He was from France. She was in Australia. They had bought a u 1980s Subaru uh couple months before they were touring America with their child who was 18 months old, a little girl named Ala, a beautiful name.

And um I'm like, you went to Burning Man with in a in 1984 Volvo? Like, how how do you even do that? So, we got to talking and I invited them to the house. He needed a place to to replace the clutch and I said, "You're welcome to my garage and my tools and my driveway." And so, I gave him my address and then I came on home. Uh but I hadn't made any other friends corporally. Uh uh during the event in 2010. Oh, and by the way, I stayed until the Tuesday after. I didn't want to leave.

Mhm.

And um I I'll back up to a funny story. Um I think it was Monday afternoon. I'm sitting on top of my camper van in a in a camp chair and this guy comes biking up and says, "Where are the tuna guys?" And I'm like, "Tuna?

Out here?

I know.

Never heard of the tuna guys."

And he's like, "Yeah, I'm trying to find the tuna guys." And I'm like, I have no idea. And I thought he was spoofing me. It was out of my realm, even after a week at Burning Man,

that there could be fresh tuna

out on the pla. I should have followed that guy. I have regretted this ever since. But I didn't know they were there. And then by the time I kind of learned about the tuna guys, you know, that that had all changed. But um huh. So I hadn't made any any friends. You know,

that was Monday afternoon. I mean,

Monday afternoon or maybe Tuesday afternoon after the event. That's a little bit late to be looking.

It was I mean they used to do a big party at like in between Exodus and and um the strike week there was a big they'd give away all the tuna that was left I guess rather than take it away in the truck. So yeah it was it was

Yeah. So for the listeners the tuna guys I think they're fishermen out of I don't know if it's like

Oregon I think

Northwest somewhere. Yeah. And so they fill up a refrigerated truck. They go out and catch like just a crazy amount of tuna. And I think I'm not sure if they're even allowed to come back anymore. I'm not sure if there's

Well, the the guy died. His ship he he went down with his ship.

Oh.

So the guy he he had all this extra the story as I've heard it is I don't know in 2005 or between five and 10, maybe earlier. But he had all this extra tuna and he heard about Burning Man. He said, "Well, I'll go out to this this big rave thing out in the desert. I can sell all my tuna." And then he said, "Nothing's for sale out here. He's like, "That's chill. We'll just give it away."

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And um

so 2006 um we used to have our Hawaii camp and so we that we had something I don't know we had like almost like a walk I think it was like almost like a village and we we'd do this like Friday sunset lua and my friend Greg who now is the god now I'm blanking the name the the big ship. Uh he's the captain of um not Contessa but uh It's going to kill me if he hears this.

But uh you know like the the big sailing ship that's uh

the double articulated bus with the

Yeah.

on top.

Um

I know Contessa doesn't contest they burn down, didn't they?

Or well somebody burned it. Yeah.

Somebody burned it down in the middle of after the event.

But uh so anyway, like he had like this big pig roster. We roasted like 120 lb pigs over like 9 hours. Like all these people we had a line that was somewhere between 750 a thousand people along and like that pig that pig just literally evaporated in like 15 minutes and we were like there's still a whole bunch of people on the line you know and it was like a potluck thing and you know we everyone had kind of brought like stuff and then that's when the tuna guys show up and they're like you want some fish and then they just started just like cutting into like oh yeah

I in the world of gifting in terms of tonnage they they gifted a lot

so I'm not sure well you said like one of them like went down with the ship or something right and and then Yeah,

it was some sort of like Nevada Department of Health issues or whatever.

I I didn't hear about that, but I I heard he went down with the ship because they had a they had a burn in his memory and it was a daytime burn.

Oh,

I forget the year. It all sort of runs together.

So, back to the the other strag at home and and my wife says to me, "Um, make any friends at Burning Man?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, one

you're not going to believe who

what

you're not going to believe who it is."

And so, I tell her this story and we're both crying because uh

I don't know how you ever get over over that in life.

Yeah.

And um and it opened up a whole new realm of communication and and intimacy between the two of us that this was a subject that, you know, I wasn't afraid of asking her about. She wasn't afraid of bringing up with her second husband. And it just freed all of that um imagined tension and fear and open up a space place where we could talk to each other, you know, about it. What was it like when you found him and how on earth did you manage and, you know, who are you, you know, and and then her parents, my in-laws, they they thought it was too fast. We got married about a year and a half after he had died. And so they had all sorts of concerns and and whether I'd be a good dad to these two little girls. And um I met them when they were um four. Uh and a couple of months old and 10 months old. So, you know, he he dies and Cindy gives birth like six six months later. He died March 9th and she gave birth to alien October 15th. And um now those girls, the oldest is a medical doctor. When she was four, she had a toy medical bag, wanted to be a doctor.

My my dad was a doctor. And um Haley's uh you know, Magna Kumladi at the University of Utah, validictorian of Park City High School. I did okay.

Not bad.

So my my in-laws finally let off the pressure after after after

18 years. It's like, you know what? It turns out you're okay.

Yeah. So it never it didn't clear the space for me to talk about Mark with them. But for Cindy and me, it it really Burning Man was a a a tremendous healing on our relationship. Can you imagine from going from judgment and hate to like a sense that that you're receiving gratitude and and direction and and um I don't know, life is a mystery. And then uh this couple I I met, they came with their their Volvo and their little girl and and uh uh uh his first name was Laurent and Claire. Laurent and Clare. Laurent from France and Claire from Australia. Uh and um he comes into our kitchen and goes, "Oh, you have an oven. I have not done any baking in so long. Would you mind if I take over your I'm like let's go to the store by no budget buy you whatever you want. So he made ah we ate it was u

wow

we we ate well for a couple of days with authentic French cooking.

So that was a gift from Burning Man and then Cindy saw these people. So 2011 uh Cindy and I go out together and that was the year where the temple was a completely different design. This would looked like it belonged on top of the Himalayas with the subtemples and towers and arches and I don't remember all the names of all the temples, but u Cindy had a personal experience out there and and um wrote wrote a letter and and put it in between the cracks of one of the walls and I've never asked what's in the letter. I don't need to know. It doesn't matter. We had a really good time uh together. And then in 2012, I went back uh with our oldest son. I pulled him out of the first week of his senior year in high school. Said, "You're going to learn more at Burning Man than you are in high school." And uh and we had a blast. Um and then um the next year 2013 I started looking for where I could give back

like

how do I how what do I have to gift? Where do I go to gift? And so I got a PhD and and I taught college and all this crap and and I I had heard about um the burning nerds and PIA school and um this kind of set of academics that go to Burning Man and they write peer-reviewed research about city planning and um temporary housing and law enforcement interaction and adult play and all these fields of study and out of that discovered the census team. So uh there was a a a participant who went by the plan name of count tests countest counting census had a conversation with Larry Harvey. Larry said yeah we need to know who's coming and so they did what's called a convenience sample over at center camp where they just had these journals and forms and people would fill it out and they called it a census, but it wasn't generalizable to the population because it wasn't random. Uh there's a bias in terms of who fills it out and who doesn't and whether they go to center camp or not and all that. But it was the beginning of what then became a more rigorous version of the census at about the time I joined where we went out on gate road and we interdicted people on their way in randomly. We asked them to fill out a simple nine question form that gave us some social economic status data that was truly random and then we could take the data from Gate Road in that random sample and we could use it to weight the data from an online survey that we we did census.burningman.org census.burningman.org. If you haven't gone to census.burningman.org and you were there in 2025,

go fill that out because it's a form of gifting and it's a way of sharing and it assists the org.

Oh yeah.

In fighting with people who are opposed to Burning Man because they get Here's data. Here's how much money is generated. Here's how much

Yeah, go ahead.

Um, so what did you get your PhD in?

Uh, today it's called the media school at Indiana University. Back when I got it, it was technically a PhD in mass communications, telecommunications track, which at that time meant broadcasting and cable, not not the legit telefan stuff, although I did do one course in that that was fascinating. We can talk about Theodore Vale and the founding of 18 T at length anytime you want.

Another episode.

Judge Green and the whole consent decree and the creation of the regional bell operating companies. Fun stuff. Thank you. Professor Herb Terry taught media law. Best academic mentor. I just incredible. Him and Roland Johnson.

The census.

But back to the census. So, so I joined in and I started proofreading and and helping develop the instruments that we use both in the communion sample and on the online and on the and on the random sample and and going out to Gate Road and interacting with participants on their way in and and if you get that, please stop and please just fill out the nine question form. To the degree that people just blow that off and go on by, it becomes less generalizable. We don't know who you are. We know we miss a lot of the oldtime burners because a lot of DPW and key theme camp people get in there before we start sampling.

And so I've tried to reach out and and gather some of the old time folks, hardcore, you'll appreciate this.

Okay.

I got up at DPW morning meetings out at the depot and encouraged DPW to go fill out the census and got death threats as a result of giving that announcement out there. I mean, kind of lighthearted, but he came up and said,

"I don't want anyone to know I'm here. What are you doing trying to collect my data?" Well, there's a couple of

I know you got a warrant out for your arrest somewhere, but I don't need you to know that. We're not collecting names and addresses, right? It's anonymous.

But yeah, I was We'll know your face. We'll disguise your voice. But I mean, a couple of questions because yeah,

when people are on their way in, well, also on their way out, I think Gate Road is a very kind of transitory place. It's like when you're on your way in, people just like, I don't want to stop. I'm going home, you know, like you're preventing me from going there. And then on the way out, they're like, "I don't want to stop. I'm home."

We we don't gather any on the way out. Um I've argued for that, by the way, that because of pulsing, we should just go where the traffic stopped for 50 minutes. We'd get a ton of data on the way out. I think it would be more random.

Arguments against that are uh we don't have volunteers that want to stay that long. I'm like, I could do it. I could get all the data we get

on Gate Road going in uh uh going out. Um

I got I got an idea for you.

Yeah.

Gate express lane, but it's the census

lane. We capture people.

Oh, yeah. It's just like you really don't you really don't want to piss off your mind if you do the census.

Well, we really don't want to piss off the resp Uh, and I know some people spoofed the census. There was one year back with Countess where I think half of Burning Man were Republicans. And I I got to imagine that was somebody going around to their buddies saying, "Yeah, let's have some fun with this stupid survey that they object to."

Well, maybe there could be they actually were the respondents, the people who actually did respond were like, you know,

all my like conservative friends and then all of the liberal people were just like, I'm not doing your survey. I'm here on my vacation and I'm being These are hypotheses that we need to find a way to test.

So, I had a lot of fun though. But there I am at DPW and oh my gosh, I I learned that was a culture clash. Joe Nerd um trying to encourage I mean I I do feel like we miss the first 5,000 people to get in. Uh

it sounds almost like a farside like cartoon, you know, like the professor stands up in front of DPW. It's like, "No, I really need your data."

Yeah. So, I I learned and slow to learn. Well, then Um my son came back for the first week of his freshman year in uh in college or no it was his sophomore year in college. He took a year off and then he joined the census team with me and that was so fun. And then uh by 2015 um I uh I didn't want to leave. So I'd been out there for early man or early burn or whatever it's called. And I don't know if your listeners are aware of early uh

well that's like when because DPW's out there for like weeks if not months even you know and but the last couple of weeks beforehand like they're just building building bill building and I think it's what the the Saturday before

it's a week before week and a day before gate opens and the various departments of the org can if they choose make an effigy census did it one year uh we had this horrible gate entrance and I'm like let's go burn that at early man and then that became a thing I think we it took an extra year to do it and we burned up a lot of our own data but they they'll build small effiges and it's a party while the hands being built, the temple's being built. We've now got this 8, seven, 8 day deadline to when we know the gate will open. Period. You can't change that if there's rain or or white out.

We can't change it. And um and so it's kind of a and it used to be the artists could invite their family members in to kind of see what they were building. That got changed a couple years ago, I think, but it was sort of a okay, we're going to have this one big party now. There's no more partying. We're going to focus on task until the gate opens, right? And so, um, so I would stay, so I went then, uh, alone and I think by 20 2014, 2015, and went early, as early as I could get out there, stayed for last supper on the pla, which is the big deal at the end of the strike week right before they tear the commissary tent down. They put on this huge meal.

DPW dresses up in tuxedos or nothing or anything or whatever. Champagne flowing like crazy. Lobsters stake the the contract and maybe maybe this is a little bit behind the curtain stuff that isn't

totally appropriate for podcast but I think it's out there enough people know about

kind of the the broader arc of Burning Man is drive the golden stake do the survey get the fence up get the heavy stuff out there the portaotties whatever and then there's the build week and then there's the event week and then there's the strike week where you pull all that off in reverse of what you just did and then there's um uh at the end of the strike week this big dinner before the commissary tent comes down. And then there's defense day and then there's spring break. People take a weekend off. Um I went off into the n the Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge and camped alone for a couple nights. Other people go into Reno and party and then the core group comes back for Playa Restoration run by DA, one of the most amazing people I've ever met. Uh the dark angel of the playa and uh he

Yeah, we're trying to get him on the show. He's a

You got to get DA on the show. It

was a hard guy to get a hold of. Yeah,

I don't know. We can talk afterwards. Maybe you could help me like get in touch with

dabbingman.org. That's all the contact I have and it's out there. It's public. But an artist, a brilliant artist, designed some of the the posters. I've got a couple here in the house. Uh designed the census logo. He was a fan of the census team. So I stayed for Resto. So one year I got early and and I did census and all that stuff. And I just didn't want to leave. So I stayed for Resto. And Resto is about what is it three and a half weeks of line walking 1 mill 600,000 square ft. That's the space that the event occurs on. 1,600,000 square ft. Every square foot gets looked at by a pair of human eyes. And uh everything that that you see that's the size of a sequin or even a human hair uh or a coin or broken bike light or whatever gets picked up. All gets picked up by human hands. And um and and it's all about leaving no trace. And and I think the playa because of man is cleaner now than it was in the 50s and 60s. Back then there was a culture just go out and party and trash the place and

throw your cans across the way or shoot stuff up or whatever. And now because of u friends of black rock and burning man and whatever certainly after the event that part of of of the playa is cleaner than it would have been in the 60s

you know that's

that's my impression nothing official.

I remember like in the early days like in like 96 97 98 like going out there and because well something I'm not sure if it's still the the case but um I think the Black Rock Desert was part of like training grounds. I'm not sure if it was like the Navy or the Air Force or something. So I remember that you used to see like like planes like fighter jets and like another cargo planes and stuff like flying around sometimes like come by like on low levels and like buzz the city. But you would find like shells, you know, you'd find bullets and stuff like 50 caliber, you know, like like like bullets, you know. And I remember just like walking around being like, "What's this?" You know,

I picked up a bullet during resto and one of the BLM guys was there, took it over to him, and he said, "You know, this is over 50, 60 years old. Put it back where you found it."

So, litter becomes artifacts given enough time. And human beings are so freaky weird about there's nothing consistent about us. Nothing makes sense on a on a macro level. But I fell in love with Resto. Absolutely love Resto. And And sometime I might go out and just do resto. And there are people who just go out and just do resto. And as Coyote says,

it it's the only only time where everybody's on the same team. Everybody's focused on the same thing. Leave no trace 100%. Uh and it's brilliantly managed and it's full of sub departments like um uh if you find something that's human waste or something you can't quickly pick up, wave your hand, they'll drop a cone and they have cone killers that come out and deal with the things that can't be done by the team. that's line walking. Uh they take care of you. They make sure you're hydrated. They make sure you're fed. If you're not rested, if if if you're having a a head cold or something, uh take a day off. We're not going to we're not going to hammer you for that. Take care of yourself. Take care of yourself. Uh also, um suicide prevention stuff because uh what what I learned and and I have had an easy life uh from what I've heard from a lot of others, there pe people in DPW who um they go out there and they're respect Ed and they work hard and they have a community of friends and and a sense of pride and and doing a job well done and partying hard and then it ends and their next step may be homelessness somewhere. They may not have gas in a car that's not particularly wellmaintained to make it back to wherever they need to go. And my experience at Burning Man and the or is they really try to take care and get a community that will care for each other. And um and yet there's there's tragic death. You know, there's too many suicides. And you can imagine how a suicide by somebody I've been working with and you hear that they died and you're like, but what can I do to stop the madness? I mean, that's why I came back.

I wouldn't have been there with I wouldn't have I wouldn't have married my wife. I wouldn't have become dad to these two little girls and had two more children with my wife and all because of a suicide. I I literally I mean what I wrote on the temple that killed off whoever I would be today. I wouldn't be talking to you. Probably never would have gotten to burning probably never would have moved west. I don't know who that guy is.

So it's just you know whatever you can do to stop that in that community. But Resto's awesome. And then there's the BLM inspection. And so my arc of Burning Man is like pre pre-build week week. man, event week, strike week, um, resto. Others are out there from survey through rehabbing the housing after all the resto leave. And some people are out there year round doing vehicle maintenance or or box build or um, you know, staff housing and and and all that. So, it is for the participants, you get the event week, but but the event uh of Black Rock City is at least a couple of months, right? And and I loved every minute of it. And then I met a guy named King Louie at Resto. Uh, and King Louie was Mr. DPW Dispatch. So, he encouraged me to join the dispatch team. So, I spent a year as a volunteer and then I actually got paid to be on the DPW Dispatch, the two-way radio system. Here's Joe, PhD in telecom, worked in commercial radio. I have ham radio operators license, and I get to experience deep PW culture as a newbie.

What year was that you started doing that?

Uh yeah. So I know I was talking to King Louie about it because then COVID came and delayed everything.

Wait, 181 19.

Uh so I I definitely worked for for dispatch and um 2023 and 2024. So 2022 I probably was the volunteer. Got the got the credential, got out there early, got the meals, got hooked up to the city power grid and all that stuff.

Did you like also kind of throw in some census stuff and it's like, "Hey, hey, you doing dispatch? Okay, I need to go over here."

It's not that kind of dispatch, but I did do those announcements. I got better at them. I actually got people laughing hysterically, set up this whole play with a couple other people and at the at the dispatch door and whatnot. Coyote actually came up to me afterwards and he said, "Uh, no, it was Leeway who came up to me afterwards and said, "Great job matching the culture." Because I had learned about what not to do, right? And Coyote came up and as I remembered he gave me a hug and said, "You know what? I think you might actually get him to fill it out this time." And uh it was something about I don't know, it was a sexual double onandre thing that one of my co-workers, a beautiful young woman did from the balcony of the dispatch trailer. And I just remember it as everybody breaking up laughing. But I don't ever want to work for DPW again. I just No. I I felt

You did your time. It was like bait and switch. I agree to do this stuff and then it's just different and things I asked for don't happen and and I don't want to I don't want to rag on it too much because I I love Burning Man, but um but come on. I I um I I I was told I had quit. I didn't quit. I went to HR to uh to to uh get a a supervised conversation with my with my boss. A conversation, by the way, I had recorded in a public public place cuz I I was getting gas lit and being told stuff that I couldn't rely on and the opposite total f***** with s***. Uh but hey, I know I know media law and Nevada's a single party consent state. One of the two parties has to know that the recording is happening. You can't go record two people without either of them knowing. And it was in a public place. It was sitting on a bench outdoors.

And I recorded this guy telling me stuff and then I did what he told me to do. And then he told me that I had violated a policy or whatever. And I was being disciplined and I'm like straight to HR. I want to have a confrontation. I want to get this guy in here. I want HR to be here. This is outrageous. And uh Cobra Commander, who had run DPW before Leeway said, "No, let's not do that. Why don't you just go keep your credential, volunteer with the census team? We'll get you out of that department. I don't think I know the individuals involved. You're not going to get what you want. This is a long-standing problem. Trust me. Just walk away and go do census. So, I'm like, "Okay, you can keep your credential. You can still eat in the commissary because I hadn't come out prepared for all that. Uh um you don't need radical self-reliance. If you're employed, they expect you to not have to cook. You just go eat at the commissary and go do your job."

So, I relied on that, right? I rely on this from HR the same way I relied on what I was told before the event and then that got destroyed or whatever. Okay, this guy in HR, man, former guy who ran DPW, Cobra Command, I can count on him. And then Leeway comes up to me and says, 'You need to turn in your credentials.' And I'm like, why? Well, because you quit. I said, 'I didn't quit. I wanted to have a meeting with my boss and clear the air. I was told I could do this. I could rely on it. And you're telling me now the opposite. I went in to to talk about how I felt betrayed and and whiplashed and turned around and and you told me you're doing the same thing again that what I was told by by Cobra Commander, I Logan is his name. I was told by Logan, I can't count on. And Leeway looks at me and says, "Yeah, Yeah, it's tough when mom and dad are fighting and I'm like, "All right, f*** all you all. I'm I am done with this. I I agree to X, get Y for doing it, and you want to change to do Q minus 7 and get Z for doing it. I'm out." And um I was listening to your interview with with um Coyote though.

He's like, "We want people on DPW who can pivot. We want them who can pivot."

I guess I didn't pivot well. So, it's not all on them. I don't want to rag on it too much. I I can be uh somebody who expects people to take notes when I lecture and there will be a final exam later. I also had differences with way dispatch was being run. I I also volunteer for the Sundance Film Festival. I was one of the assistant theater managers for their second largest venue. We use the same radios that Burning Man uses. And there's some crazy around the difference between those two events and how the equipment's managed. And in my perspective, it's insane. uh what was going on two years ago in dispatch. So I was glad to walk away and then I just wasn't having a good time after that. I like who do you trust? Who you don't trust? I've tried to get back to Burning Man. I got this great gift out of Burning Man and I got a sense that I was complete with Burning Man. So in 2024, I left e even though my son-in-law's brother was out there trying to find me, I'm like I got to leave Flyia and I left on um left on Friday afternoon and um came home, watched the man burn on on um a TV.

Mhm.

Uh and then I flew to France and cheered on my cousin in the uh par Olympics.

She had been in a terrible accident and she became a parolympian in wheelchair fencing.

And I was trying to talk to my boss about maybe leaving a little early, but he never had time for me. Never had time for a personal conversation. Uh and so that was that was maybe a motivation for getting the hell out of there, too. But um I wanted to cheer Ellen on. And uh and then I got to the um Stad to France for the closing ceremonies of the Parolympics. It was the same music as Burning Man. It was about the same size crowd around 70,000 people

and propane explosions. And I'm like, "This feels so familiar." I'm in Paris, the closing of the Parolympics.

That's funny.

And the the flaming balloon feels like the man and the performance art and the whole thing. It was surreal. And I realized I don't need the event out on the Playa to experience this stuff anymore. And and um so the census team, they said, "Hey, we want you back. Forget about DPW. There have been other people on census who had actually worked for DPW and the man base build and other things. You know, you've learned your lesson. Here's a free ticket. Here's a free vehicle pass. Please come in 2025." And I said, "No, why don't you gift that to someone else?" And I'd been gifting tickets for census. I'd done enough volunteering year round that I gifted three or four tickets before that. I'm like, "Just give it to someone else. I'm going to take the year off. But I I got to tell you, on Thursday, once I saw the weather forecast and the rains had stopped, I I talked to my wife. I said, I could get a $950 ticket, $150 vehicle pass. I could just go out there for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Those are actually if you want to if you want to do it, go do it. And in the moment she said it's okay, I thought no, no, that's not right. You want to go out to Burning Man, you want to be focused on gifting others, you want to be part of building the city, I'm not going to go out and just be a tourist for four days.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So that I mean I've done the entire podcast is now the answer to the one question. Uh except for I will add one more thing. I I my wife and I are planning we have we haven't got the tickets yet. They don't got on sale till October 8th. But I think we're going to do Love Burn because the or uh banished Love Burn or they got a pissing fitter. I don't know the details, but Love Burn and apparently the or in San Francisco were kind of on the outs with each other. And I'm like any regional that that the Borg or says is is a bad regional. That's now where I want to go. Right.

Yeah. I don't really know all of the details, but yeah, it's um

I don't know him either and I don't care.

Official Bernie man thing. I I I don't know. You know,

apparently you can order Uber Eats delivered to the gate and you can come and go from a condo. You don't have to. So, it's a different vibe. And I get the org's point.

It's like the regionals like like Larry Harvey said like many years ago, it's like it's like it's like a hundred a couple hundred like different like petri dishes, right? I mean, like it's nothing is going to be exactly like the Black Rock Desert, you know? I mean,

I think maybe like Elements 11 or something is on a lake bed somewhere, you know? But

did it once? My wife and I did element 11 out at Star Valley Ranch. Um, yeah.

How is that? Is Element 11 still going on or

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have friends go. I only went one time. I think that was in 2011.

Okay. But like like Loveburn is like on a beach. in like Miami. I mean,

it's like a state park. Yeah. Like walking distance to downtown Miami.

Yeah. Like

I think I don't really know much about it. I just know I want to go.

Yeah. Yeah.

In part because we're going to go on a cruise out of Miami February 9th. And so I had friends saying, "You got to go on this cruise with us. You got to go on this cruise with us." I said, "Well, I wonder when Loveurn is." Loveurn's February 5th to 8th. I'm like, "All right, I'm going to do both of those things. I'm going to get out there February 5th. Try to get a ticket to Love Burn." I had had an offer a couple years ago to work for their version of of dispatch, but it went into my junk email folder and I didn't see it. So, I might dig that up. Although, I think I just want to go as a participant as I hear myself talk. No, I'm not going to do that.

Just want to go as a participant, have a good time, and then get on the cruise after.

Was it like a Burning Man cruise ship?

No, it's uh it's uh

it's funny because I remember years ago Le Harvey was talking about like someone had approached him and said, you know, where there's this I think it was something like a a decommissioned aircraft carrier and they were like,

"Oh, this would be awesome." Like, yeah. Yeah, you could put it out in international waters and you could have a a yearround like, you know, auton autonomous autonomy zone out in the ocean. And even Larry was like, "Yeah, I don't know about that."

I I I love the idea. I um uh we had a couple of friends that are going on the cruise and they're getting older and they're like, "This is the last time we're going. We'd love you to come with us." And so we've bought the tickets on the cruise. Intend to buy the tickets for Loveurn and then I'll figure out the airfare. I might even drive out there. I've got This camper van now has 400,000 miles on it. Bought it new in 1998. Spare no expense maintaining it. It's running as good as it ever has. Might drive it to Miami and back. Not entirely reliable. Any vehicle with 400,000 miles.

But um Wow.

The other thing I want to tell you is my wife and I were also in DC

and we got to go to the Kenowick uh folk folk art museum and see the Burning Man display that was there. And you know, Larry got to be there. They had the big reception, the Smithsonian. Yeah.

That said, Burning Man art is worth of putting in one of our museums. And shortly after that opening party, had a stroke and and lingered in and then passed away. So Cindy and I went after Larry was gone. But that was that was amazing. They really did a good job of capturing everything except for the dust.

Well, they didn't have like a Chuck-E-Cheese, you know, like the big circular like room you can go in with.

They should have. Yeah, they should have brought out a couple of tons of ply and just put people in a phone booth and blown it through them.

So, okay. Before we get to our last question, it's a I just want to briefly like your background. So like where where are you from? You you're not originally from like Utah, right? Or

no.

Where' you?

No, I my uh my dad was from Fort Wayne and my mother was from southern Indiana and uh they met. She was a surgical nurse. She wanted to be married to a doctor. My dad was teaching junior high school math. He always wanted to go to med school but couldn't afford it. And so uh so she uh she made him a doctor. They got married. She supported him through med school. She was an amazing surgical nurse,

absolutely brilliant. Um I I she got pregnant with me. I kind of ruined her career for a few years. And then by the time I I could go to school, she would um send me off to school, go to sleep, get up, make dinner, put me to bed, and then at 11:00 p.m. she would go over to the hospital, and she was the emergency room sup supervising nurse before they had hospitalists. So if they got trauma, it was my mom and her colleagues that did the initial trauma care. until a doctor could drive to the hospital. Often times that was my dad cuz we lived literally next door to the hospital. There was our house, another house, and then this hospital so he could run over there. And sometimes he'd wake me up and and run over there with me and drop me off in the ER to be babysat by my mom, which I don't think insurance companies allow anymore. I uh one of my earliest childhood memories is a guy coming in from a bar fight with a brokenoff wine bottle sticking out of his stomach and blood everywhere. And my mother and these nurses

saying to me,

"Joe, come over. You can watch us sew him up."

Yeah, check this out.

And I'm like,

confusion.

I'm going to sue you for child abuse when I get older.

Well, outside of the ER, guess what was right outside of the ER? It's so perfect. That was the switchboard for all the paging with all the the cables and, you know, whatnot

before before we had all this wireless stuff. And so, yeah, I didn't become a medical doctor, but I got a PhD in telecom. Wow. So,

like instead of like watching all the guts and the bloods like I'd rather watch all the switches over here.

Yeah. You operate on something that that's not going to die, you know?

Well, I mean, I work in the pathology department like in the hospital and uh just I don't know. I mean, we interface with the emergency department like a lot and you know, I have friends who are paramedics and stuff and as I always keep telling it's like it it takes a particular type of person to work in an emergency room with paramedic like because Everybody you're seeing every day is having literally like one of the worst days of their life, you know? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I I know some people that, you know, they've done it for years and years and some people like, well, I can only do it for some period of time. They're like, I I have to do something else. I mean,

yeah.

That's just a testament to your mom and dad that, you know, they could be so devoted, especially in a small community where like you would know everybody.

Oh, yeah. I couldn't do anything in high school because my dad's patients were all out there watching. I didn't know who they all were.

I'll tell you a quick story about that. to my dad had bought the house from the widow of another physician. So, this is a real throwback. My dad's medical office was in our home. Had a separate entrance. It was in the lower level, kind of half underground, partial basement. But that's where he practiced medicine while I'm trying to do piano lessons right above him and stuff. And the cat would run through the office and it was a real family practice. But his my dad's patients loved him. And he had more patients over the age of 100 than every other doctor in town. That got my attention when I was in grad school and I asked him how he did that. He said, "I don't I don't try to treat every disease. I don't prescribe everything." He's kind of a minimalist, holistic guy, ahead of his time, I think. But I want to tell you about my mom. So, one day we're walking home. She worked 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. I can still remember this. There was a hallway in the hospital with all glass and the glass was facing east. So, the sunrise is coming up. And my mom says to me, I'm maybe six, seven years old. Joe, I want you to be a surgeon. You got the hands of a surgeon. And I said, "Mom, I I could never stick my hands into somebody else's body. I don't know how you do that." I remember this so crystal clear. My mom said to me, "Oh, Joe, you don't understand. They're not my hands." I'm like, "What?" And she says, "Um, I know I can't do what I do. Every time before a surgery, I find a quiet corner of the hospital and I pray, "Dear God, let my hands be yours. And she was out to make people's lives better. They they both took their careers as Christian callings.

Mhm.

And and they didn't force me into Christianity or any of that. And I I don't attend church. I'm here in Utah. I'm not a member of the LDS church. Occasionally I go whatever. But they they were very sincere in their sense that that their savior or their God wanted them to do what they could to make the lives of other people better. And when my dad died, um, years after my mom, I I got his stuff. I'm an only child. And he had a he had a journal of all the births he had done and the date and whether it was a boy or a girl and whether he got paid or not, you know, and I think it was like 30 35% of the births he did, he never got paid for. And he never went to a collection agency, you know, and and there were people who uh who mowed our lawn and and paint ed our house to um to partially pay back what they felt they owed him um for uh for their medical bills. So, um I was raised by very good people, a very sheltered life and and connecting with people at DPW who've been on the fringes, man. I just wanted to reach out and help and and um

um

and you eventually did become a doctor.

Yeah, just PhD, you know, not not a medical doctor. And that little girl with the toy medical bag. Uh she's she's a physician now. She's 36, 37,

delivering babies out in Wisconsin. Her little sister's doing great and

amazing.

And um our son who was born uh um that we had together, he's now 30, 31, and we had a little girl after that who's 28. And so they're all they're all doing pretty well.

Yeah.

Um I've been lucky in that sense. I see other parents who've had a lot to deal with and u there's a lot of pain in this world. world. And I guess as we start to wrap this up, my experience Burning Man is a place where you can go and heal and let go of a lot of pain and experience childlike wonder. Like if you remember when you were three or four and you came down the stairs into your parents' living room and you saw the Christmas tree lit up at night for the first time and went, "What? What is that?" You know, it It's that sense of of of childlike wonder that's available out there and it and it's healing and everybody should go. I may be feeling pretty complete with the event out on the out on the pla but anybody who's never been I would absolutely unreservely you've got to go. You have to go and then you have to you have to be in a space of seeking and and seeking to give back. Maybe not for the first year but at some point you turn to giving back and then miracle happen out there. Absolutely indescribable.

Well, also like it seems like your experience kind of fits this pattern that I've kind of noticed that I mean if if for someone who like oh this is just a bucket list they'll just go like one time and like okay been there done that. Uh someone who you know if like the first they go for the first three years it's like if you don't like start participating at that point you just get kind of jaded just like well I've been to the party three times. Yeah. You know But you didn't get it. You missed it.

Yeah. But but if you start like, well, I'm going to join. I'm going to volunteer or I'm going to start a theme camp or I'm going to make an art cart or apply art installation or something. You do something to give back. That's kind of like the hook that kind of keeps you coming back like, you know, years and years and years.

One of my favorite moments out there, right about the time I first joined the census team, I did a TED X talk at PLA school.

Yeah. So, what was that all about?

It was all about UFOs and here we are with two minutes left and and a whole another subject to talk about. I helped organize the 2013 citizens hearing on disclosure in the National Press Club in Washington DC. I recruited five out of the six former members of the United States House and Senate who served on a panel in a faux congressional hearing and listened to witnesses from 10 different nations, 43 witnesses sworn in under oath to give testimony about military and government records and encounters with non-human created technology. non-human intelligence, if you want, what we call UFOs, or now the government calls them UAPs, which was unidentified aerial phenomenon, but now they've changed it to unidentified anomalous phenomenon, meaning some sort of technology that's transmedium. It goes underwater, through the air, and out into space, maybe even through solid matter. Uh, it it it lingers for incredible lengths of time with an energy source we can't imagine. Our best stuff uh has to land and refuel. This does not. It can accelerate at speeds that would turn a human body into jell-o uh in ways that we don't understand. And we've we've got credible people talking about that. Well, the 2013 hearing was uh was a tipping point in that. And now we've had three hearings recently with if anyone's following this, Representative Luna with this government transparency task force in the United States House, uh Senator Warner in the intelligence committee apparently has had private um briefings and gifts secure information facilities in the ha in the in the capital building. We've got um military officials like Lou Alzando and David Gush and others uh swearing under oath with a penalty of perjury for testifying to Congress falsely that we have a legacy decadesl long program of attempted reverse engineering of non-human created technology that's happening in terms of people saying it's happening. I believe that it has happened. I I've had friends both in the Pentagon and at NASA then in the way they refuse to talk about this subject suggests there's something to it. Those friends have told me they've had to sign non-disclosure agreements and if as much as they might want to like to talk about it or think it's important to talk about they violate their NDA uh their spouse loses all the health care and insurance and retirement benefits and they go to a jail worse than Levvenworth. Well, let's get rid of those NDAs. That sounds extra constitutional to me. So, there's a in the in the National Defense Authoriz ization act. There's been language the last 3 years for Congress to declare imminent domain over all evidence of non-human technology and intelligence and biologics and it's been voted down. Um there are forces opposed to that. So that's a whole another area of my life where I'm trying to make a difference.

I think if we're not alone in the cosmos, it's a birthright issue and I'm pretty sure we're not. It's absurd to imagine that we are given there's more stars in thes universe meter of the universe. Like, yeah.

Yeah. Who are we? There's more stars out there than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the earth. An unimaginable number in the hundreds of billions of trillions or whatever. And each star now looks like has between five and 10 planets around it. And so that's a lot of opportunity for a lot of biochemistry to have a chance to do something other than us.

So that was your TEDex talk at Bernie.

Yeah, that was my TEDex talk. It was about the citizens hearing. It was a five minute talk. I think I've just done 10 with you.

I'm really passionate about it. Yeah, I think they were. It was a rapid fire

series. It was either five or 10 minutes, but I loved that. Um, one of those

talk like those disclaimers in the commercials. It's like

Exactly. And then but you know, so you do your thing on stage, but then you you the people who are in your tribe seek you out and then you have longer conversations back at center camp or or uh you know, sitting in a a zerog chair with a libation. And um I got to wonder and you sent one of your emails before I we got on the show today wondering you know if Burning Man someday might be do a are you an alien theme they they did that

came close with cargo cult the man was on a flying

there was another I'm trying to remember there was one like years ago I don't know I can't remember but there was some sort of like outer space kind of thing

yeah they had the man on a flying saucer

yeah

I forget the year maybe 2012 um You walked up on the saus came down on slides and then the man burn they they started the burn with all the fireworks coming down out of the ship as if it was lifting off all this white

was it was fabulous but yeah I've thought if there are uh non-human uh folk around where would they feel most comfortable visiting earth

make the theme of Burning Man one year like it was like we're joking around but like I would love it for was it like the cosmic community and then yeah that's just kind of the whole joke where you know it's just like this is a like a a safe zone you know for for any like you know anyone to come into any like alien life forms and just come and you'll be home here and then

you know and then we could like you know as Burning Man loves to like joke around and play prank you know you can do a fake ICE you know be like the intergalactic customs and enforcement.

Oh yeah,

you know then you could have like the the alien civil liberties union like you know like fighting them. And

for all we know from their perspective, we have we are the invaders on this lovely garden called Earth. And they need to get us, you know, off to where we actually belong because it ain't here. I I I've often said, you know, when this life on Earth is over, I intend to have a very firm conversation with the designer of this meatbased space suit I'm trapped in having this human experience. It's rotting around. Who designs a space suit that's this poorly poorly made? it's aging out and and ceasing functioning before I do another away mission on another planet. I want to have a much better suit to do that away mission in. And that's a great perspective to have, right? And then I know I could go for another hour and a half. Uh but uh in terms of pitching anything, there's only one thing I I thought about this. Where would you start a conversation with with an advanced hopefully ethically, morally as well as technologically advanced technologically life form? Where would you start a conversation? I thought about that for a long time and I thought, you know, as a human being, I would start that conversation with an apology. Uh I'm sorry about the mess we've made of things here. We're polluting our environment. We're letting children starve to death. Why do we let any child starve to death? We're We got people dying under rubble in Ukraine for reasons that you can begin to fathom innocent people dehydrating under rubble. Uh you can imagine what the earth looks like from a a celestial perspective. I'm sorry. I don't know how to fix it. and could you give us a hand? I think that's where humanity eventually will go in terms of fixing some of the messes we have here. So, out of that, all the way back in 2007 before Burning Man, I put up a website which I need help with. Maybe there's a listener out there who could help me take it to the next level. But I own www.thepeopleofearthapologize.com. The peopleofear.com. And And I can imagine if Advanced life is here. It is downloading the internet or its artificial intelligence is downloading the whole internet instantly. And with all the garbage out on the internet, I wanted this one little website to be the people of birth apologize.com. And uh back in 2007 8 n I had people writing apologies. I published them. I learned HTML and Dreamweaver. I've been trying to learn WordPress on and off, but it's a primitive site, but it's out there. It's my towel. old in the internet for that and I think it could be an important website and I

and if anyone wants to get a hold of you like uh what what would be like a good email address you'd want to give out?

Let's do this one. Um I'll tell you how I got my PL name and maybe we can end on that with my email.

Sure.

All right. So I'm sitting around the census department. We had like five people named Joe. Right. And they're like so Joe meaning me. What's your plan name? I said I don't know. I've been out here four or five years. Haven't got a PL name. I guess I'll never get a PL name. never really like the name Joe. You know, I wish my parents had named me something more interesting than Joe. Um, I said, "I guess I could be Joe B because my last name starts with a B." And one of the other census workers looked at me and lit up like a Christmas tree and screamed at me. Uh, that's you. That's who you are. You're Joby. I'm like, "Yeah, Joe B. Joe Bookman. Joe B. No, no, no, no. You don't understand, Joe. You're the opposite of FOMO." Okay. And I thought, "What's FOMO?" I didn't know what FOMO I mean, Everybody under my age knows. She said, "That's a fear of missing out." And I said, "Well, okay. So, what's what's with the Jo?" She said, "You're the joy of being included. You always want everybody included." So, J OI, that's my plan name. It's an initialism for the joy of being included. So, J OI also works for Joe Bookman, but Jobi, Joby at burningman.org. I got Joby at burningman.org because I was doing some stuff for census that was interfacing with vendors. inside the or that was the standard as I recall for getting a Burning Man address. It's still good. Um and um you can write me a joi joybeing included at burningman.org and I'll find it. Um or you can just Google me. I'm all out on the internet. I've run for the United States House three times calling for disclosure as an independent candidate. Run for state treasurer for state house senate.

Huh?

You ever win any of those uh elections? Not in terms of the vote count, but I've won a lot of debates and earned a lot of respect. But those are stories for another time. But but in 2017, the mayor of Provo ran for the US House. I ran. It was a special election because Jason Chaffus resigned in the middle of his term or shortly into the beginning of his term. And so I got to know Mayor Curtis who then became Representative Curtis who is now Senator Curtis. And so uh I won in the sense of getting somebody who as a United States senator to be forced to listen to me for about grand total maybe nine hours and a half a dozen debates all around the state talking about the things I care about including eliminating unconstitutional non-disclosure agreements increased whistleblower protection and open hearings about waste fraud crimes and the non-human intelligence issue so I got that I consider it a win Senator Curtis has been very kind to me um I'm not a fan of everything he does, but who is? But he's somebody trying to do good in the world and and uh

yeah, one in that sense. But no,

you're not going to win an election unless you got a lot of money. And in Utah, you pretty much have to be a Republican. And

yeah,

uh I'm not that.

Yeah.

So, either going hour and 17. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful, wonderful interview.

I um I'm glad you're doing this. I'm looking forward to listening to the 22 or so for episodes I haven't heard yet and uh very grateful for

put your pants back on because in January I'm going from twice a month to once a week. So

I heard that and your yearly update. I just listened that today.

And also like did these uh series of call the shadow shorts. So then those that's another two. So there's going to be like roughly we're going to go two a month at like six a month.

Did you get a lot did you get stuff recorded out in the literal shadow of the man on play?

Well, we'll talk about that in a minute. But anyway, so thank Thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon.

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Thank you for listening to this latest show. We have to make another one, so got to go. Don't worry, we already have one in the can. Very soon, you'll be listening to a new shadow. of the man.