EP 51 Cab Spates

Episode 51 with Cab Spates is out now! Meet Cab Spades, a long-time participant in Burning Man and a community leader in Hawaii. Cab talks about his history with the event since 2005, detailing the logistical evolution of the festival from a seamless, low-tech gathering to a complex operation involving massive shipping containers and permanent infrastructure. Cab explains the concept of Buddhist economics, a holistic worldview where value is measured not just in currency, but through human relationships, environmental impact, and personal satisfaction. He connects these festival experiences to his work in Hawaii, specifically his Optimistique festival, which integrates permaculture, wellness, and sustainable agriculture to foster local community resilience. He shares his experience of how the principles of resourcefulness and communal effort found at Burning Man can be applied to create lasting, regenerative systems in the default world.

https://optimysstique.com/about/

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show.

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Aloha. It's that Andy. Today our guest is a very good friend of mine, Cab Spates. Welcome. cab.

Mahalo. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

So, yeah. I mean, how long have I known you for now? It's like cuz uh you're a friend of mine here from in uh Hawaii. Uh God, it's been like many years. So, like when was the the first time you actually even heard of Burning Man? Like when was like what was your how did you ever get like hooked roped into going into Burning Man?

So, I think it was uh 2005. And it was um what was the year of that? That was the um Psyche. I think it was the year. Um and my friend said, "Oh, you got to go. You got to go. You got to go." So um I bought a ticket and went. So um back then it was really easy. So

Oh yeah.

It was like 2005. So they they already were there. and they just said, "Oh, you got to go. You got to go. You got to go." So, and they're great friends and and we, you know, done music and other stuff together. And

were you living in Hawaii at the time?

I was in Hawaii at the time. And I was also putting on I think that was I was also putting on the Optimistic Festival. I think I need to double check what the dates are, but cuz I usually put on a wellness, education, dance, music, art, yoga, like sustainability uh festival. or andor events that have those components and you know farming and stuff like that. So um so they you know these are friends of mine and they said oh you and I might have seen them out in you know clubs or other places and and they were friends from the Northshore too and they said oh you got to yo you got to go so so they convinced me to go and I bought a ticket I flew in later than them and I flew in on a Tuesday or like a Wednesday I think.

Mhm.

I flew on a Wednesday, rented a car, brought a tent with me, and it was just cake. I know. I just rented a car, rolled up to the gate on a Wednesday, bought a ticket, and went in. I was like, "Oh my god, this is amazing." Just so so much fun. I mean, I was just like,

"Did you fly into Reno?"

Flew into Reno. Uh rented a car from the airport, of course, and then flew in flew into Reno, rent a car from the airport, and then drove straight into um to Black.

Well, back then 2005. Did you get like any kind of flack at all? Like did anyone ask you like where are you going? Where you want this car for? You know, you

that was so early. I don't even think they were checking. Um I don't even think they even cared cuz I think they rented a maybe they rented a lot of cars at that time. Um but it was it was super seamless. Um and I think I I I did clean the car, but it wasn't like super meticulously clean, but I think it was still okay. I didn't get charged.

Well, how many people were even at Burning Man in 2005.

It wasn't huge. I mean, I could look it up on my phone and see.

But um but it wasn't like, you know, that was before it got um got really popular. Like I said, people were still half building their camps on a Wednesday.

Mhm.

You know, that's when it was like that where people would like start building their camps and hang out and then, you know, party and then and then they would um they would continue slowly, you know, building their their camp until Friday or so or even sometimes later and then um and then and then break it down. But I think the I think back then the build up and the breakdown were there was more time.

Mhm.

I mean more people stayed on the player. So I think there was more time for for people out there just building and then breaking down. So um that's what I personally remember. Um I think a lot more people were just on a slower I mean things were a little bit slower then too you know pre I mean the the phones weren't as fast and um and

I don't think the phones even worked there like but also like I think that like we're saying there's probably like 20 30,000 people or whatever you you know like uh it's not like you know now it's like 75,000 people and like everything is completely set up by like Sunday like Yeah. But uh so yeah. So who'd you camp with your first year?

So I think my first year I was probably with the Hawaii camp, the Tetris camp or Tetrion. I think

Hank Rogers and and those guys. I think it was those guys, but I think I'm pretty sure it was that crew because it was like a Hawaii Hawaii crew.

So yeah, it's like explain who they are.

So I think Hank is a uh he's a big you know, was a tech guy into sustainability also. And um I think he he did something with the Tetris video game. Um

yeah, I think he was he went to like the Soviet Union. He was the guy who like brought it back or or I don't know. That's how I think he made his money was like in Tetris, right?

I think it was part of it. But you know that's I don't want to get the cuz I don't really have those details, you know, you know, dialed in. So, I don't really want to,

you know, explain that and I'd rather people research that cuz it's it's out there.

Yeah.

But, and then get the the facts, but but yeah, he was involved with that and they we actually had the Tetris video game set up for a few years um on the Playa. So, it was like um that that was kind of amazing.

Was that like they had like a whole bunch of scaffolding and like lights and stuff and so it was like the the just was like at the was actually the camp itself or something.

It was it was I mean it depends on what year. So there's several several years and several incarnations of the Tetris or Tetrion camp and um so some years they had more of a um that video game thing set up and uh than others. But yes, that that definitely happened.

So when you went in 2005 was that was that was that the first year that they did that or they've been doing

Oh, I have And there's so these are deep 2005 is so long ago.

Yeah.

I mean I was cuz a lot of the years kind of bleed together. I just know that was my first year

and you know I was camp with those guys but I was like running off doing all kinds of fun stuff. So I don't I don't remember exactly what was at camp. Um

were they how many people? Yeah.

Oh god. I there was a fair amount. For sure. Cuz I mean cuz a lot of cuz that's when um when I mean it depends on the year. So that first year that I went you know I didn't ship anything over but those guys you know they get a container and they they ship thing they were shipping things over.

Yeah.

Um regularly. So they they had to bring a lot of gear. So some years the camps the camp is bigger than others. So they have to ship a lot of stuff. So they needed a lot of people to help set up infrastructure and it was kind of a big deal. So they they needed a big camp. And I've been with that camp and camping with them when they've had a you know a lot of people you know 50 maybe 80 I mean yeah so a and it was also connected to another camp um one or two or more years so um that's kind of fun so there was there was a few years when the camp was tetrion or tetris was was pretty pretty big

um

so how many years Did you camp with them?

I never count this stuff,

you know. I'm so bad. But yeah, I I I don't I mean, but for a few, you know, for my first few years for sure and I was cooking, doing the chef thing for the camp cuz I was that was kind of fun for a while. Um then it got kind of hectic, but um especially when the camp is just ginormous.

Yeah.

And um but it's it's um Um, I was camped with them for a while. Um, for, you know, a few years in a row and then I

How many years have you been going to Burning Man? You've been going like every year since.

Every year since, but I didn't do the um I didn't do the uh what are they called? The um

the Renegade and the COVID years. So, I didn't go to those years, but all the other years I've been um been going. I was tempted to, but I didn't go

during the uh co years.

So, basically You're talking almost 20 years, right?

Yeah, it's 2025 and I first started going in 20 2005. So, and then you subtract the co uh renegade year. So,

23 or so.

Yeah. No, you uh 18. Oh, yeah. 23. Yeah. No, no. 2005.

No. 20 minus 20 minus 2 is 18ish. Cuz it's 20.

Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 20. Yeah. Yeah. 18. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um ish I always put the ish down on there.

Have you ever gone to like any other like regional events?

Oh, we did that one in on the big island. That was kind of fun. Remember?

Oh, yeah. Our regional. That's right. Rebirth.

That was so am and did we do one at um at Camp Timberline? Was that us two?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was uh there's at least how many? Two of them, right?

Two at Timberline.

Well, cuz there was the first one And God, what was that? 2012 or something? And then cuz uh remember we were supposed to do uh like Gunstop like EA.

Remember that?

I remember. And they freaked out. They said, "No way." And I was like, "Oh, backup plan." That was classic.

Well, for the listeners, yeah, I mean, it's a long sorted story where it's like we had a contract with them and we had it set up and advance and and we had portaotties, we had like everything like we'd staged all this stuff and the gate was about to open. We had people flying in from foreign countries and uh the Church of Latter-day Saints basically came in and said, "If you know you'd let anyone in on this property, you personally will be arrested." And we're like, "But that's illegal." And they were just like, "We don't care." So we had to scramble and then that's where we found Cam Timberline, right? And so we had a a kind of a smaller event there. And then did they did that with the the next year? Was it just one more year after that?

It's so bad with uh I don't remember, but maybe

maybe one or two. I'm not sure the next year was if there was one the next year.

Yeah, this is on the island of Aahu. And then um Rebirth was our thing on the Big Island because that we did that 20067 and eight, right?

That was fun at the Shire.

Yeah.

On the mud. That was fun. Oh, man.

So, that was uh out of the jungle. It was this old like cane field, right? And uh which was like on top of like a old like lava field, right?

It was amazing. I love that. It was good. It was like so magical. I mean, there's so much space out there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's hopefully, you know, people can get together and do it again. I don't know.

Yeah, there's a lot of options. Um there's a lot of options. I mean, that's the fun part. And just getting the right people together. Um and even on Aahu, there's some great places. It's just about coordinating. Um and and

I mean, I also I think you need to have the the landlord kind of buy into it, you know? It's like I mean, if if you I mean, there's there's different events you can do, you know? It's like you can do kind of small events, you know, and not worry too much about like liability and permits and things like that, you know, like originally like when we first started up in 2002,

like we were going out to Makua like on the on the west side and which

it took us a while to realize that it's like it wasn't actually legal to camp there, but it was just kind of like a first come first serve, you know, like I think there was like the cop would come through like once a day or something, you know, and you know, as long as he weren't like causing trouble, you know, it means it's like, hey, you know, people would just kind of go out there and camp, you know. I don't I haven't kind of been there in years, though. I'm I'm sure it's entirely changed by now.

Oh, yeah. But people used to um camp there just to wake up and and check out the swim with the dolphins in the morning and

Oh, yeah.

That was just a kind of Uh, Makua is like this go has been I think historically been this go-to okay camp place for a while and especially during that time.

But uh but like you said, I think that things have gotten more strict um over the years.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, also I think that the homeless population has uh kind of expanded as well, you know, and uh I'm not sure what Makua is like now, you know. But yeah, I mean we we had like I don't know 30 40 50 people. I mean, and with no generators and just kind of like acoustic music and we'd have like a bonfire. We'd do like beach cleanups and stuff and it was it was great. It was fabulous. You know, I think like what blew it out of the water was like eventually at some point like the uh there were some like DJs who were you know like in the the dance kind of crowd who were like it's like you know you need to like do this bigger and you need to have like generators and power and and like and I think like we were going to have like another event. It was going to be like a couple of hundred people or something and then that's when like the state like I don't know I got like some random email from like department of like land and natural resources and they were just like you will not be holding this event at Makulla again. It's like you know you will be arrested and I was like oh I guess I guess we won't do that you know.

Yeah. Yeah. When you get too big um yeah, you need to be at a place where um where you're you're not going to be um you know uh targeted. Um and once you get that big, I think it's kind of hard cuz if you open up that to that many people, then there's going to be people that are going to be irresponsible and and not

Oh, yeah.

do the right thing. So that

it does make sense. I understand. Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like Bernie man. It's self, you know, it's like when 1990 there was what, like 80 people. 91 was probably like 200. I think it like it kind of doubles, you know, so it's like 200, 400, 800, you know, like I mean, so I think it's like once you kind of reach a certain critical mass, you know, it's like it's like is this still just like a bunch of friends just camping or, you know, it's like, oh, now we have to have like year round infrastructure, now we have to have like permits and we got to like liaison like with the government and have like liability insurance. And like, you know, smash cuts to now it's like, you know, 75,000 people and it's like people, oh, the bureaucracy of Burning Man, you know, it's like, well, how do you think you're going to do it with 75,000 people?

Yeah. All that many people flying to the airport and um yeah, being people dying and people being born. Um but yeah, it's

it's yeah, it's definitely um in an airport. I mean, it's it's definitely there's a lot going on. on.

Yeah. Well, I mean, so you've been going almost 20 years or 18 years or so. Uh you've seen a lot happen at Burning Man, you know. Uh so you so you first camped at Tetrion. Like where have you camped since then? You just kind of just each year kind of gone like camped at a different place.

Um sometimes I do uh like the walk in or the free camping. Uh randomly I I camp with um I think I was supposed to camp with Mac call. One year I think we couldn't find camp,

so we camped with Camp Walter. That was cool. That was a classic camp

camp Walter. They have the VW bus and um and um for some reason we couldn't find that original, you know, with Mac and Dave. So, I was going to camp with those guys, but we couldn't find them. But we just, you know, the Walter guy said that we can camp there. So, I camped there. That was a cool year. Um past couple years I've been camping with Massage and Joy. a massage,

body work. Um,

what else have I camped? Um Um, and then just random spots um in the in the open camping world. That's that's kind of fun. Um, so where else? I mean, there's probably a couple other places I just can't remember off the top of my head, but that Walter year was amazing. It was such great weather. and just phenomenal. Yeah.

Yeah. So, have you ever like uh volunteered?

Oh, no. What's that?

Oh, no. What were you going to say?

Oh, yeah. I did camp with um another group that's kind of popular. Um what's the name of the camp? Camp. Um what's it called? Just had a top of my tongue. Uh tip of my tongue. Um

it called um maybe it'll come back to me later.

Haley's fire.

Yeah. Yeah. But that that was kind of I I still think that's an extension of of Tetrion.

Yeah.

Which is like a Hawaii camp. So

yeah,

I always consider that under the umbrella of Hawaii Tetris.

Yeah.

Um even Yeah. So um

did you ever did you ever camp at the the Capulina camp?

Maybe. Is that your camp?

Well, only like years ago like we used to have that like uh first Friday or the the Friday sunset luau. We had this like this big pig like on a rotisserie and like I think 2006 there was

with Seth.

Yeah, Seth was there. Jeff like Mike Mong

maybe. But if that was that early I was probably I mean because there it sound you know it sounds like so there's more than one Hawaii camp. So um

yeah

but I I was with play for years a couple years one year two years every one year that's another camp. But, uh, that's like an established camp that I was with one year. That was great. You know, those guys are cool.

Everybody's so different. They're all just so um, unique at how they they do stuff.

Mhm.

What you what you learn at the camp and, you know, setting up, breaking down, participation, the people involved. Um, yeah.

Oh, yeah. So, all these years it's like you've just been kind of traveling like you going from Hawaii, traveling by yourself just what like flying into Reno and just like getting yourself out to the playa and camping and just different camps.

Yeah. Well, different camps and the beauty Yeah, I usually go to the Yeah, it's been fun. Um cuz years ago I I linked up with the um going to the hot springs um before and after. So, it's nice to fly in and hit the hot springs before and I I usually teach yoga there at the hot springs before um Bernie man kind of get the uh get the you know get grounded on the the the west coast mainland.

Well the which hotspring you talking about like on the pio there like

No no no it's uh it's a lodge Sierraville

um yeah in the border of um California Nevada.

Oh

yeah. So um so I I like to go in and kind of um fly in there and just get comfy and cuz you know just you know you don't want to go straight from Hawaii straight to the I mean it's just too much straight from Hawaii straight to the uh PA is a lot I mean depending on how much time you want to spend but it's it's nice to uh because I do a lot a lot of stuff here at home so it's nice to take a little little break um and then um re

how does that like work logistically for you like coming from Hawaii I mean do you just come in with like a couple of bags or or like have stuff like staged there.

Well, yeah. Luckily, um the Sierraville people were so gracious to let me store stuff there um over the years because I' developed a a nice relationship with them and they're super helpful and um so and they've got a lot of space.

So, um so I've stored some stuff there and and it depends on how you know how I do it. So, before like when I first to go. I, you know, just bring a little tent and jump on the plane. And I could even bring my plane on the tent. I mean, my tent on the plane and then, um, get a rent a car and just, you know, go in and buy stuff and go in. Um, and then sometimes, you know, I have friends that are camping and they would, um, bring stuff in for me. And in the early days of uh, the containers being shipped over for the Tetri Tetris camp or Tetrion camp or or the other camps, they would um they would have the shipping containers from Hawaii go to, you know, go to go to Reno. So, I would pack stuff into the container and they would ship it over and then they would just drop the container on the play and we'd just grab our stuff from there and then um

the container go to Reno or the Playa?

No, the the Playa or maybe both. Probably both. But um but yeah, actually I think both. I think sometimes I think you might be able to get a container to take it from here to to the playa. I think a lot of people do that. A lot of those camps, New York, a lot of these places are far. I think I think that's what they do. U maybe

Oh, yeah. I know. Like New York, Boston, like a number of places. But I mean, it's easier for them. It's like, you know, they could just like put it on a truck and drive it out there.

But yeah, they put it on the ship and it goes I mean, I guess from from the ship,

I'm still amazed like from Hawaii. I mean, like God How expensive is that?

Yeah, I mean it isn't it? It isn't. I mean because those guys were putting up a lot of big infrastructure. Um and they were doing a lot I mean some of the some years the camps were pretty then there was a lot there was a lot of stuff in those camps. Huge tents. It was ridiculous. Yeah, there was a lot of stuff. And then they they might do that and then they might store some stuff. Um and they they did have storage in Reno but um but I do remember you know packing stuff to get shipped um in the container.

Yeah, because I think they did have people kind of contribute, right? So, it's like you could

for a certain amount of money. It's like the individual people could like send stuff like on the container and then it would, you know, and then also the container would come back too. It's was like it was a round trip, right?

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um

I remember like I don't know I just have this funny memory that they you know it's like Hank Rogers and he you know he was fairly wealthy you know and he I think he kind of forwarded money for like a lot of this. And there's a couple other people who like, you know, they put in a lot of money for this. And I remember they had like some sort of like some scaffolding and some some lighting stuff and like shade stuff. And I guess that's how like the the Tetris kind of thing like worked or the part of the camp. I remember someone telling me they were just like, "Oh yeah, you know, we rent that scaffolding in Hawaii. We put it in the container. We send it to Burning Man and then we bring it back and then we like you know we bring back the rental and I was like what the hell why would you like rent it and then ship it you know it's like why not just like I mean especially if you have money like why don't you just buy it in the mainland and then just leave it there you know but it was like a specific size of of scaffolding or something you know

but but I mean I get you know I guess there's always pros and cons um and that's the beauty of if you do have if you do have resources and or whatever then it's and then developing the relationships then it's like you can build it and see what it's going to look like before you ship it out there.

Oh yeah.

Because building it at home you're comfortable at home. The people that you know that are renting it to you um they can help you assemble it. They can tell you what's going to be best for what and then you can practice with it. Um and then and then maybe I think another benefit depending on how you look at it is you could you could um once you get it back here then you can replicate your setup that you had out of the playa in Hawaii.

So so you know I mean it just depends on how you look at it. So

do they ever do that?

Well I just thought of it. I mean I was just thinking that we need to

that would be a great idea. I mean I'm not sure they ever did that though. You know I was like huh.

I don't think so either. But I think that that um that would be really helpful in terms of um creating that interactive art thing and then making that connection of Burning Man and Hawaii

and then allowing people to really see, feel, and experience what it is. So, um

so I think that would be kind of fun. Um

like you're uh you're itching to organize a container to go from Hawaii and I'm just joking. I mean, that would be a great idea, you know, but I mean I I don't know. I mean, what do you think? You think like people here like on at least on Aahu? I mean, because like I'm not sure you could have a container like go around all different islands, you know, or each island have like like the Maui container or the big island container.

Oh, I don't know. Um, it depends on how many people, you know, and what they're doing. I'm not sure the rate, but you know, it does get it does add up when you're going and shopping and buying stuff and then and not just the the you know the the cost of it you when you're doing it but also um the time.

So you know efficiency and all that other stuff if if you want to

get practice you know setting up what you have or or using what you already have

and then shipping it over whether as opposed to you know going shopping and then buying it and then

yeah

if you're talking about like like you like a pretty large camp, you know? It's like you don't want to be like experimenting around with like, well, I wonder how this is going to go together. It's like you don't want to be doing that like as you're setting it up on the plier, right? Like you want to you want to like have that like figured out beforehand and then disassemble it, then put it in the container and then be like, "Okay, as per like, you know, when we had set it up before, let's set it up here now in the play." Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's time and and you know, you know how the weather gets out there and it's like you want to make it as seamless and as easy as possible. I mean, Just think about this year

and people setting up their stuff and having it break and and if you if and if you never set it up before,

you know how actually, yeah, I had people come over to cuz I was doing massage and they just needed a reprieve because they were just kind of been out of shape because, you know, some of the stuff it wasn't labeled. They've never put it up before. They didn't know how to put the stuff up. They've been traveling. It's hot.

It's windy. It's been raining. I mean, you know, So, so yeah, you want to make it as easy as possible and and basically preassemble before you you you you know, you you you get out there because it's like, you know, once you get out there, you want to you want to um you know, have have some leisure, but also not to be stressed and building infrastructure. Um

well, you don't want your entire experience to be just like toiling and then then all a sudden it's like Labor Day and you're like, "Okay, now I got to like pack it all Right.

Yeah. The time is like Yeah. The time I mean, so so that's it. I mean, the bonds that people make while they while they set the stuff up or or the, you know, or the bonds that they break, you know, the fights they get into, you know, setting a stuff up where people have meltdowns or people just leave, you know. So, um, so yeah, you you want to make that easy because there's so much to experience and enjoy and um and learn and you know you know there's just so much that you can experience and you don't want to um yeah you you don't want it too complicated um because you could burn a lot of you know mental capacity uh uh trying to set up infrastructure um

oh yeah yeah

so um yeah even if you've got experience doing it it's still you know it's still you know can be a chore you know um Yeah. I mean, uh, so you can see yourself to continue doing this year after year. I mean, it's

um, yeah, it's still really fun. It's still, uh, really rewarding. Um,

you like just kind of being at like different camps or or I don't know. I I find it like very adventurous when people just like, oh yeah, I'm just going to go by myself or like camping like open camping and stuff. I'm like like wow, you know,

I'm I'm used to doing that. I mean, but I have friends that camps all um around. Um and one year I camped at uh inflation station, too. Um

what's that?

That's where they um Christian uh Christian's camp u Christian u he's in Hawaii now, too. You should interview him. Oh.

Um he's got a great camp where they um they help people with their um tires. So they, you know, it's a air pressure,

like uh air pressure, you know, they've got pumps, they've got tools

where you can fix, you know, just flats, but also put air in the tires, repair tires and and other tools. And they got he's got skills, too. He's really savvy.

Um bent rim. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Um

yeah, that's a really key. But I don't I think this this might have been their last year. And they they actually, you know, they they really did it up this year where they had uh I think they had a DJ and they had um they had a wardrobe area where they had a boutique where you can get clothes

and they had and they had the um bike repair so you can get you know your bike repaired and styled out and you know pick up some fashion

um and you know have a have a drink. They got a good bar and then um listen to some music. So you could you know you get a lot, you know, have a great experience in in their little in their setup.

Well, how do you feel like about like going by yourself and doing this like kind of solo adventure thing like so many years? I mean, like I don't know. I mean, does it ever feel like lonely or do you ever feel like kind of like afraid or you know, it's like like at first I mean were you just kind of like what the f*** am I getting myself into? Like who are these crazy people?

No, no, I loved actually I grew up traveling um like going on sort of trips and sometimes I would go on surf trips alone. And then um but I've got a lot of friends though. I've got so many people that I know. I mean it's just like realistically it's the opposite. Um cuz there's so many people that um I do know out there.

Well now, but like when you're first going I mean

Oh, when I first No. Well, those are the glory day. Oh my gosh. Those are the glory day. I mean because you meet so many So if you don't go alone if you if you don't go alone, you go with the crew. And this is this goes I've learned of traveling um you know surfing and going other going surfing in different parts of the world and then if you go with a crew you hang with your crew. If you go solo then you're going to meet all these different uh amazing people um that you've never met before. Um because it's like it's kind of built in. You kind of you kind of you kind of you kind of have to.

It's kind of like built in. But my first year, you know, I did I I camp with my my friends from here. So I I did I went solo. I flew in solo, but I saw those guys there. Um

just like open camping. It was just like you and him or maybe a couple other people or something.

I mean, and you meet people and sometimes, you know, I've gone with a couple friends. Um few friends that I met. Um I've gone um kind of Yeah. gone with them. Kind of. Yeah. Gone with those couple people

before. But it's it's it's the magic. I mean, because you because you meet so many people there. Um,

well, I think also you're kind of a little more unique. I mean, you're not your average person. I think I think like most people would just be like, "What?" You know, I'm going to go to this this crazy festival in the desert with a whole bunch of people I don't know, don't look like me or anything at all, you know? It's just like, I don't know. You know, I mean, like just I don't know. I think it's a lot of especially a lot of younger people nowadays probably like have a lot of anxiety and stress. Yeah, I I think at that time it was um it was a lot easier that time because I mean Burning Man's that way too. I mean that's the beauty of it. It's just so welcoming. It's just like you you want to go alone because there's so many great people to meet and if you're with the crew, you're just still you you're it's like you're bringing your home with you.

Yeah.

And your habits or whatever else instead of being open to meeting all these these other different people. So that for me it's just like

I I just love it. Um so many people over the years it's just been and they're still great friends now. I mean it's just like

any Yeah. So actually this year there was a lot of people that I wanted to see and I didn't see but um I'll see them at some point. Um

does it get a point where there's just like there's too many people in like I can't see everybody. They're all spread out.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Oh. Or I mean it's that ply of magic where um you just think about the person and they just show up, you know, it's like boom. Oh, there they are. Oh my god. Um so or or you get a message from them later saying I saw you but you were too far away. I mean I saw a person this year.

Uhhuh.

Said they saw me out there but I was I was too far away.

So what like when you're on the ply like what's your kind of schedule like? What do you do? Because you said you were at uh what' you say you're now you're you're massage and joy. So like you do like is that you're kind of gifted for people to give massages? Yeah, I was doing body work out there, massage out there, and um yeah, so schedulewise, um kind of daytime, I mean, it used to be night. I mean, it depends. I kind of mix it up, but day I love the daytime party action, daytime traveling, going to see people out there,

traveling around the city during the day, and then

um and depending on the weather, you know, that's always um

Well, yeah. a a factor. Um but but it's the same thing. It's like it's never really exactly schedule schedule. Um

but because I was doing body work, I I I was usually there, you know, noon to 3 4ish. Um

but uh it depends. Um and then you can go out, you know, late or um or early. Sunrises, you know, we as we all know is such a special time. Sunset is a special time. We hours in the morning too can be just magic. Um,

you got to sleep sometime.

Yeah. I mean, well, and that's why I'm saying you with the weather. So, when it's hot, you know, depending on how your your living situation is, then um if you have AC, then you can, you know, sleep, you know, during the day or or sleep in later or If it's hot, then you know you maybe you can sleep, you know, in the early morning till till, you know, 10ish or something depending on where you are, how much shade you got.

Have you ever like been in an RV or it's like you've always just kind of tented it?

Um, sometimes I actually when the weather got really bad this year, I've stayed in my friend's RV and then I never really get an RV and go that's just too much to do.

Yeah.

But uh and then Yeah. It's been rainy. I've I've you know stayed it and and friend and you know my friends are RVs I've stayed there. Um and uh but the thing is if you have your your infrastructure too comfortable, you get lazy is what I found.

Yeah.

And you're less likely to go out and you're just going to be like

Yeah.

You're too comfortable and and you just you just kind of revert into into your into your default life. Um

default fire life.

Yeah. Or or default regular, you know, it's just like you would do what you would regularly do, you know, wherever you live. So it's like

to go out is like, you know, because it's it's out there. Or if you've got, you know, your really nice setup, then you're just inviting people in. But it's just I mean, you you know that there's no way to see everything. It's impossible.

Oh, yeah. But that just kind of reminded me like I had a number of years there before because uh I took like 13 years off. I went like 2011 and then I went back in like 2024, right? And so there were some like the late 2000s. I remember just kind of getting like stuck at my camp like I mean there were some years where it's just like I barely I mean because we we had like a like a bar at our camp and I mean we like I said it was like it was very comfortable like everybody came to us but then And I mean, even though I had a bike, like I barely even like used it, you know? Be like I mean, I'd be lucky if I like went out to the band and came back, you know? And I remember like just like a couple of those years just like sitting at the camp of just like it's kind of one of those things those creeping feelings when you're just kind of like what am I doing, you know, just like why am I here?

Yeah. Yeah. Because you you can be complacent. Um Yeah. Christian was saying that too because he's because he you know he had the inflation station and there was a lot that goes into setup and breakdown and you're just there at the camp and you know people need you at camp or if you're there they need you. So it's like and then I think a couple years ago then maybe two years ago he he didn't have the camp and the responsibility he went out and it was like oh my god what have I been missing you know I finally got to go out and really soak up um soak

I kind of like what you talk about doing like the massage thing is just like have I mean like the schedule, you know, it's like there's no like set schedule. It's just like, oh, every day from like, you know, 7 in the morning until maybe 7 in the morning, you know, it's like every 15 minutes a schedule. But like, you know, like if you say it's like, okay, I I know I'm doing like from like 1 to 3 I'm doing this or then from 6:00 to 7 or whatever, you know, like and then in between it's like, oh, it's open like I can hang out with some friends or I can go explore.

Yeah. Yeah. I try, you know, so that's the thing. I kind of need to make sure that um I don't have too many obligations out there because I do I do drum with the ambient drummers um for the fire just fire spinners around the man.

Oh,

for the man burns, but I also um

we also I also play with the um some of those guys uh Luke and Donut um at uh at Sunset at center camp sometimes. So, I I like to have time to go do that, too. Who is it that you play with at the

uh Luke and Donut? They're part of the ambient drummer group.

Um and um and Devil Six Dave and and um so so um

you bring drums with you too?

Yeah. Yeah, I bring I bring a drum. Yeah, I bring a drum. Um it's part of stuff part of the stuff I bring.

I know. I just imagine like how much you travel with because it's like I brought like two duffel bags. I think one was like 50 lbs, one was like 60 lbs or something and like and you know I was camping with people who like you know they had water and like power and stuff and I just had like dehydrated foods and stuff like I was like it's like how do you do this you know like especially coming like from Hawaii like if you're just going to be traveling with like everything.

Well I mean the rent a car makes it easy. So one year I I brought my rent a car back um and and then took the burner bus in. But

really,

that was Yeah, that was when I saw you online.

Remember I saw you online and

I was like 24, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that was

So you got a rental car, brought your stuff to Burning Man, went back and then

No, no, no, no. I No, no, no. I took the rent car back. I returned the rental car

and then took the bus.

Then I took the the burner bus to the to the PA.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow.

So I did my shopping with the Rena Car. And then uh

so we just rent it for like one day or something.

No, no, cuz I I I went to the hot springs. I'll go to the hot springs before. So

Oh,

it was like

Oh, wow.

So, um

So, yeah, it's not just Yeah, cuz it's Yeah, you you got to get coming from Hawaii. It's f you know, you don't want to just fly. Yeah, just flying it. A lot of people do that. They just fly in and go to Burning Man and come home. It's just It's just Well, you got have some kind of support system like you're either like camping with like you know a plug-andplay camper or like or you have like friends who are just you know like they're going to like bring stuff. It's like you know I mean

but there's you know the beauty is and you just got to trust it but there's so much out there. I mean the farmers markets out there

um there's so much out there and and that's What was beautiful this year is that I forgot to bring clothes for the for the uh warm weather. Um cuz I was still like I'm still got to kind of traumatized from the earlier years when it got really cold and I was just thinking as long as I bring clothes when for when it's cold cold just in case then I'll be fine. Um but then I forgot to bring clothes for when the weather's warmer and then um

and the lingerie lounge is right you know on And it was like, "Oh, just get a wardrobe, you know, just get

get some new clothes." And then and that's what they offer. So, I mean, ideally, there's so much and costume cults out there. There's so much out there. And that's the big part of participating is like and and the people making food and um it's just

there's just so much out there that you don't you know, you know, the saying the ply provides is the ply provides. you know, it's like

there's so much out there that if you go with with minimal stuff,

then um it's it's really helpful. I mean, because a lot of people come with too much stuff.

Oh, yeah.

And then it's like and that's historically what you know that's happened um with a lot of people. Um so that means you gota um I mean it's great to drop it off to the DPW guys.

Well, especially towards like the end of the week, you know, like everybody's all just like just like rapidly giving away stuff, you know, like it's like like please take it.

But but people offer, you know, so that's part of what people do. They're offering all the stuff and if they don't use it, then it's like they got to deal with it later. So it's like

it's it's overabundance.

You know what uh my brother and I did this year because we brought these like dehydrated foods and we're like

yeah, it's like do we want really want to be eating that all week? And I was like this will be like an incentive for us to go what I was calling foraging. Mhm.

So it's like it's like yeah just just I mean we just could just like wander around just like wander up and down the street and it's like and it was like oh you see a big line of people and like oh get on that line like see what they have and it's like oh look they're giving out cheeseburgers. It's like oh you know like you know I mean there's people giving out like all sorts of stuff

you know. Well that's the beauty. And then you get to taste taste what people make like the midnight poutine people.

Oh yeah.

And then the what's the uh what's the cheese uh grilled cheese people? What's the name of that camp again? Moon cheese.

Moon cheese is so good. Oh man, the moon cheese was

Man, it's so I mean the people that make they made this fkaca bread. They actually I met the lady one of the people

in in California um when I was um near Tahoe I think and that was her camp. But I mean that's the experience you know if you just have your stuff it's like it's so so but if you go out you know it's just like going to a restaurant you meet all the or a bar you meet all these people and Yeah.

You know, not just for the food, but your your the whole social connection. So

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then and then you know, so so it's it's magic. Um and then Yeah, cuz then you know, if you're stuck at camp making food for yourself, it's just not the same as going out and then having this experience with

I think it's good to have like a mix of this. It's like I wouldn't I wouldn't go to pretty just be like I'm going to go with nothing and then just like, you know, just spend my entire time just like like looking for food, you know, but at the same time it's just like ah I'm not going to bring like, you know, a ton of stuff and make everything. It's like I think it's good kind of was like, oh, you bring some stuff and then you go get some stuff, you know? I mean,

you could make things and share and then you can go and have other people share with you.

Yeah, that's fun. I mean, it's really fun um to share food out there. I mean, especially at your camp, you know, it's just you're bonding um with what you know, with that food, you know, or with whatever you're sharing. It's like um and it's just so communal. Um you know, it's just it's just a thing to do. Um

so um tell us about Optimistic. How long have we been doing that for? Because so Optimistic is an event you've been running here on Aahu now for God, I don't know how long.

Yeah, I'd say it's close. I think my organic sun day and Optimistic. Uh, I think those were I was doing those before I was going to Burning Man,

the early 2000s.

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I was doing those before I was going to Burning Man. Um, almost positive on that one. Um, yeah. So those are um that's like cuz I do do permaculture uh studying permaculture and permaculture I mean there's lots of different ways to look at it

but uh it it permanent agriculture might be one way of looking at it um and and what you're saying about foraging that's that's great um but building infrastructure um with uh food force um uh so that you're you're connecting with the the land

and the plants that are growing there. So, um and then you share those with the community. So, um so that's one component, the permaculture component.

Um you're sharing the food that grows and the plants that grow on the land. Not just food, but it's food, it's medicine, it's building materials, and um those things can be um intertwined. into the um modern um community.

So um so I have an event that infuse that's one component of the event.

Yeah.

So permaculture component is one and then I usually have the the wellness component, you know, the uh natural medicine and the um holistic medicine or holistic healing

and um yoga stuff and the spirituality component

and Um and then even the even the um one year I really promoted the modern um business component with um cryptocurrency and Bitcoin.

Oh, really?

Yeah. I had a um my friend Ed was uh he hosted a Bitcoin seminar in 2017 at Camp Mccclea. So

Oh, really?

Yeah. That was an epic year. Oh my gosh. So yeah, he hosted a cryptocurrency seminar uh uh gathering at the event. So So in the schedule of events. It was a crypto uh Bitcoin seminar. Um so yeah, that was just phenomenal. So

So optimistic because you have permaculture, you have wellness. Uh you also like don't you do like like food like cooking too or uh

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the permaculture part where permaculture. Yeah. Yeah.

Part of because it's like the food that's I mean that's the beauty of it. The food that's growing on the land or in the and the animals on the land um to the people. So it's like um that one year that I think that was that was a campa where that we had a hunter person they brought a pig that we

they killed they they

hunted a pig and they brought that out there. That was an epic year cuz that was happening. We created like a permaculture garden on the property there at Camp Mole. and their property adjacent across the street. So, we had a lot of build time, a lot of lead time so like months so that we could um you know make these gardens and have those gardens ready for showtime. So, that was a super um amazing year. We had sound healing with uh Sarah Supernova and um an acupuncturist. So, it's yoga and sound healing. in the chapel at that was

Taimmani Gardner played a quadrophonics played

Tommy Osuna played we had like loads of music we had four it was four days four days and night um Josh Jaffy played we had like a little quasi like hot tub out there people that made bamboo bikes were there the king of Hawaii Uh, Lance a lot actually blessed that event that year, 2017. That was that was a phenomenal year. Um, but all the years were magic. Um, so I've had so many um amazing musicians rolled, you know, uh, amazing musicians and people. Paul Isaac's played over the years. Elon Mir's played at the events. Um, the Chance King's been, you know, DJ Jerome James has always of course been there. there. Um, and amazing yoga teachers. Root Hub's been there. He's a big part of um or Aloha. He's a big part of Burning Man setting up infrastructure. Burning Man, he's been um you know to been part of Optimistic over the years. Um so there's a there's definitely a crossover. Um but the Optimistic thing is it's a little bit more um more connecting with the environment because you're here and then working on this whole quasi permanent thing and um and with the you know really focusing focusing on the sustainability component where you composting the you know the waste um even though they do it at Burning Man

and then um and then planting the gardens. So this is something that I can see that's you know possible. I mean I'd love to um to do it at Fly Ranch and just help those guys you know partner with those at Fly Ranch where you're making this permanent thing um so that each time you do an event, it's like you're building infrastructure.

Yeah.

You're making it more sustainable, making it easier um to to do it. And um and then it's like you, you know, you've got fruit trees, you know, that are producing or, you know, spinach bushes or other things that are basically there because you you you put those um put those there in the first year. Actually, you know, right down the street um at one of the venues and and historically I've had have moved it around to different farms and like here at the end of the street where we had it one year, there's a giant maringa tree that we planted. It's huge now.

Um and my other friends t uh Tim and and Kiki, their farm, um we had an event at their farm and we did a permaculture opening uh event and permacult So, it's part of the event and we planted trees there. Those trees are still there. So, it's just, you know, a lot of the stuff is is like permanent. Um.

Wow. Well, all you have to do now is start your own cryptocurrency. You can have a cabcoin.

Then you can sit back and relax.

Uh,

yeah.

No, I I I agree. That's a good idea.

So, where does it all begin for little baby cat? Like, where'd you uh were you always like Are you from Was born in Hawaii or like where did you

No, I'm from Virginia Beach.

Oh

yeah, Virginia Beach. Um yeah, the East Coast.

So like what uh what how how what got you to Hawaii? Like I mean how because you said like you traveled around. I mean you're surfer like you

Yeah. So I grew up surfing. So that was my you know still surfing. Love surfing.

So surfing. What's that?

You learn how to surf in Virginia?

Yeah. Yeah. So There's a coaster there. Actually, now my friends made a wave pool. There's a wave pool there. They got the waveguard there. So, one of the best on the east coast, they say.

So, my friends have the wave wave garden there and uh it's just opened this year and um so I grew up surfing there and there's and one of the longest uh surfing competitions in the uh in the world. I think the ECS is there in Virginia Beach.

So, um yeah, there's some really good surfers there. Uh West Lane was on the ASP. I think he was, you know, seventh in the world on the world world tour. So he's from there. A lot of great surfers from um a little bit further south. Uh also Brett Barley's from the Outer Banks. He's a really great surfer. There's a lot of really great surfers from um from there.

How many years you've been surfing now?

Oh, I started, you know, when I was 12. 11 12 years old I think. So

you're like 25 now, right?

Yeah. So So yeah, it's I've been surfing a long time. Um but I started surfing there and then um and then I uh you know surfing in contests and um

You surfed in contest? Yeah.

Yeah. Surfing in contests and then um I got sponsored, you know, they gave me some gear and surfboards and helping get surfboards and I was traveling. I got did get some sponsorship to travel and I built some great relationships and um and then I and you got to come to Hawaii because it's the mecca of um mecca of surfing. So I came to Hawaii and I was like wow this is amazing and it's part of the US and um so I s came here traveling I went to Australia, Indonesia, France was really good amazing Um and uh saw a lot of the world. Barbados, um Costa Rica, um West Africa, uh Sagal, West Africa. I was surfing there. Um so I've traveled to a lot of places. Uh Mexico, it's been amazing. So I've been there a few times. Um and um yeah, it's just been a big part of my life and learning um you know, these about these different cultures and and um connecting with uh people um all around the world surfing and and you have your surfing family. So it's like some of my friends that I grew up surfing with are are living, you know, still in Europe from Virginia Beach and I would Portugal. I went to visit my friend that I uh Jason Griffith that I grew up surfing with in uh in Virginia Beach. He lives in Portugal now. So I went and stayed with him and surf there. Um yeah, it's in California, you know, of course. um surfing there.

So would you call yourself a pro surfer? I mean we're like on the surfing circuit kind of thing.

I mean so so you metriculate, right? You surf your amateur contest and then you surf your to be a pro surfer you just surf pro contest. That's what the early days. So I surfed in a couple pro contests. I think I surfed in a pro contest in Cabo and um But and then it was like at that time it was to be a prourfer it's like you put all your chips into the pro surfing world and um a lot of people it's kind of hard to like you know a lot of people they might not have finished high school in order to be prourfers. So because that's kind of could be your prime time of you know 16 17 uh to to 20some um to to put your hours in or travel or whatever

um and getting your your your experience andor payday. But I saw the trajectory and being from being from the east coast like I a lot of my friends a lot of what you see is like people being pro surfers and then they they they uh they get uh they they become surfing reps and they're in the surfing industry

and uh I didn't really foresee myself uh just being in the surfing industry that I don't think that would would have done it for me.

Um so when I traveled I was like wow this is amazing to travel and then being a pro surfer is, you know, it's great and it's phenomenal. You see the world and have a lot create a lot of great relationships and do a lot of phenomenal, you know, have a lot of phenomenal experiences. But um but I I uh what changed it for me is I saw the poverty and um in Mexico is kind of a heartbreaker. Um so I go to Mexico for the first time and I'm like, "Oh my god, it was like, you know, you see the you see the sign in San Diego where they're they they they have a uh they have a parent pulling a you know holding pulling a child you know across the road and it's like caution you know people may

Oh yeah the the caution sign like uh people like running across the road Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you see this you know you see this poverty like in Tijana um and then it's like and then to just to see yourself this is like privileged pro surfer

and it's like uh even though you do have a responsibility and and and now a lot is being done with the surfing world they have definitely helped improve the conditions for a lot of people from around the world um and and also has been a gateway for people to to escape um escape you know poverty

but uh but at that time it was like what am I gonna do um with my um my uh time on the planet?

So, when did you discover Hawaii or when did you decide it was like Hawaii is for me?

Well, so so after I graduated college, um after I graduated college, Oh, no, no. Yeah, it was when I before I graduated college, like I came here in the spring of one year in college. college and I was like, "Oh my," it was spring. It was like beautiful, you know, caught some of the best waves of my life. It was like perfect weather. I was like, "Oh my god." Got some really great surfboards from um uh great friend uh Jeff Bushman. Um and he was like he he was he's the man, you know, he could shape, you know, surfboards for best people in the world. And he was saying that um I came that spring and I had a phenomenal time. And he said, and then I was telling about, you know, I want to move here. And he said, "Well, you you know," he said, "You you want to travel before you you you settle in Hawaii because you're not you're not going to um you're not going to go anywhere, especially at that time because you're in a rural area of the North Shore." And it's like,

"What year was that?"

That was 20 94.

94 95 is when I first um

God, what was it?

No, no, no, no. That was So 94 95 when I first moved here. But before that, my my before I graduated college. I was like 92ish or something around there. 91 9. It was right before I graduated college.

When did you graduate? Like 93 or something?

92ish is when I graduated. Um Old Dominion.

Yeah, I graduated 93 actually. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so what was the Northshore like in the 90s?

Uh it was kind of quasi wild west. It's still kind of quasi wild, but I mean this is like pre Yeah,

pre like internet it was like pre pre a lot of stuff. Um

and but I I yeah so so it was there was a lot that wasn't here but what was here was that's when I got into yoga and it was before yoga got kind of popular. So you know I was like one of the I went to yoga early those days and the early days and there was like I was the only student for a while. And then I got into permaculture and not many people were into permaculture and the growing stuff. I had a mentor for that too. Bill House and Carol uh Carol Dudley um was my um Campbell Dudley was my yoga teacher. And so those are the things that I was studying here because it's still kind of the Wild West even though you're surfing, you know, outside of surfing, you know, it's it's like a rural area. There's not really that much happening.

Yeah. Outside of that

living like Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, I'll substitute teaching at the um at the school cuz I have my degree. But let's rewind before we get too far ahead. So, before I um like after I came here in in my the year before I graduate, I mean the semester before I graduated and I kind of fell in love with the Northshore and Aahu and it was also springtime and so it was sunny. It wasn't the rainy season. But regardless, you know, Jeff Bushman said that you want to travel before you move here because once you get here, you're not going to go any because it's like you're living in a rural area. It could be like a almost like a a dead end almost. Um, so it's like uh depending on what you do, you know, if you're a pro surfer, then that's this is a macob surfing. So then then you could do that, but I wasn't in that world. I was into like other stuff, you know. I was uh into natural healing, uh, holistic healing in the yoga world, the permaculture world. Those were things that I was studying while I was here. So, um, so and that kept me kind of like f you know that that that's my that was my postgraduate that was my school, you know. So, and then I went to massage school. So, the and then worked with community um rural community development kind of um the rural renaissance is what I like to call it. That's part of what optimistique is. So, I helped with the Northshore Country Market. That was one of the first farmers markets on the island. And that was

that farmers market was a um that was basically in opposition to um to uh development like so. So in order to fight development um from outside developers um you know coming in and and creating you know lots of homes. Um then then there was this movement to create um uh a farmers market, create a gathering place where you're sharing information and goods and resources and education. Um so that you would foster our local community so that we will be strong and create jobs so you'll be strong enough to uh fight outside um development. So So that market actually just um is still going. Um it kind of resurfaced just a few weeks ago. Um but I was involved in that. So I was that and that kind of coincides with that vision. Okay. But uh you see going to a rural area like if I'm going to Mexico in the '9s and seeing seeing this poverty, it's like it definitely is a way to offset that poverty by improving the quality of life with um through through local sustainable agric culture.

Um, so so that kind of um it filled that void. That kind of kind of what I was um kind of what I was looking for um sense because it's it's like a purpose um and still so so um like

so it's also with that you know that natural holistic healing and um and then the permaculture um permaculture food medicine uh infrastructure So it's and it's sustainable farming and things like that or or subsistence farming. So it's different than largecale uh corporate like giant agriculture. So the quality is there

but um and then you you have diversity and um so so that's kind of um

so like after you discovered Burning Man like how did how did that uh influence you at all or impact you

after Burning Man? So going to Burning Man was

so It was it was um I saw the scope and the scale and um that was like okay I could see uh how big it could be uh how big things could be and then connecting with people from around the world and then um and at that time and there still is um the beauty of it is there is his permaculture um workshop still and and you know the sustainability components and and and the year the green man was was kind of um iconic. I do remember that where people were recycling some of the woods and and other materials and and people still do compost. Even in our camp I think we're composting some stuff.

Oh yeah.

And um but also um and then learning how people are living in other parts of the world. world, what people are are valuing. And they did have they did have uh what do they call it? Um like a crypto or a blockchain seminar um at uh one of the camps one year. It was like a big part of one of the camps and it was I mean the the Bitcoin and the blockchain uh my friend Ed is saying that was part of Buddhist economics

the Buddhist economics element uh uh movement. which is like and that's true economics um where you cons and that was my degree in in uh college.

So really

yeah that's what I studied so it was like so Buddhist economics you take everything into consideration so it's not just what your you know the bottom line I made you know x amount of dollars this year it's like this is you know my time is you know worth this or this is what my spent my time doing um the dollars, you know, are this amount. Uh my satisfaction is this amount. The friends that I made is worth this amount. The cost of the environment is this amount. So, it's like you put all those things into consideration when you think about um Buddhist economics. So, that's that's kind of um what I was alluding to before earlier in the conversation. Um remember, you say, "Okay, how much does it cost?" You know, what are we doing if we're renting this infrastructure from Hawaii and bringing it over. But if you think about, you know, the the time how much time it's going to take you to set up new stuff that you're not familiar with and or the relationship that you have uh you're building with the company that you're renting from year after year after year after year, then it's like you could show them things that they could do that they might not know that they could do because of your experience at Burning Man. And um they could show you, you know, that you could help that company actually about, you know, how to ship stuff to places more efficiently. Just think of how good you get or how much better you get with the experience um after doing it so many years in a row. Um

so that and then um uh so so that's part of part of the the return or that's part of the value of of what you uh get when you uh enter into this like relationship of quote unquote uh business. Like you can look at business as a money thing um or you can think of it as a relationship thing or you can think of it as a relationship and money thing and time thing or people that you want to be around um and then you know it could evolve from there. So it's like um so so yes it's just how you're looking at you know resources and then as you develop these these relationships and you realize and this is with Burning Man, you see that there's all types of resources. So, it's like everybody's got all these types of resources um that might not be considered resources in the default world, but they are like you were saying before, you know, with our homeless community, they have resources. I mean, everybody has resources.

So, it's like um just look looking at how to plug those into um places where um they can be uh appreciated. Um um and that's, you know, that's kind of um that's big been a big part of Yeah, that's been a big part of Optimistic and that's been a big part of what I've been working on over the um over the years um is is looking at that and then um coming up with um coming up with like solutions or or methods to uh share or uh what's possible. Um so yeah, that's that's that's just I'm just over the moon now. I just um because because yeah, I mean Bernie man's a great example of people being um resourceful and as we all know you know, when the weather comes down and it gets muddy and rainy and you're a billionaire, you can't

Yeah. you can't fly out. Good luck, you know, Chris Rock going out, you know, hitchhiking out, you know. So, it's like, you know, no matter how famous you are, whatever, it's like

stuck in the mud.

Yeah. So, um, but you learn so much from that. So, it's like, and then, you know, people get you never knew how valuable a plastic bag was until you could put it on your feet to go to the bathroom. You know,

well, go to the bathroom in your feet, but you might take to walk to the bathroom. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. To walk to the bathroom. Yeah. So, it's like Oh, but still still even even still if it's an emergency and you're in a place and you need a plastic bag in a bucket, then you know that PL definitely teaches like Bernie B teaches like resourcefulness like Yeah. You know, it's like like you said like working together like like in times of like adversity or or or just like on a project. I mean it's Yeah. I mean I I'd never heard of this like Buddhist economy thing but like wow that like like that that definitely applies to the playa in so many ways you know like

yeah I I I love it but yeah Buddhist economics um because yeah everything's considered um is part of the equation you know so everything and that's true that's when you talk you know with indigenous cultures that was it's part of the deal um is that everything's taken in consideration. You're not gonna um not consider the environment when you're doing something

because you have to. It's like you're going to be in that environment regardless. So you can't not So So you could assume Yeah. But but yeah, so um

so yeah, that's that's kind of um kind of um inclusive. Yeah. It's holistic thinking.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or you could call it holistic

Yeah. a good general term. All right. Well, we've been going uh almost at hour and 18 now. It's uh

wow,

reaching the limit the show, but uh man, this has been a great episode. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you. I'm over the moon, man. This is so much fun. Wow. I didn't Time flies. Um

I know it could be like could talk for hours. Well, anyway, thanks, Cad.

Thank you. Any more last clos? things, comments or anything or is this

uh anything? Well, let's see. Um, well, we got any plugs? I mean, I'll definitely I'll put in the show notes like a link to Optimistic, right? You have a like a website or something, right? Like I'll

Yeah, optimistic.com. How do you spell is it opty? M

OI opti mss tiq.com.

Yeah. Two S's. M I SS.

Two S's. Yeah.

Oh, two S's.

Yeah. So, there's Yanni with one S and I've got two.

Ah,

I'm so glad that I've got two. Yeah, it's it's tricky. Yeah, that the two doesn't really I mean that's what makes it different. Yeah.

And it was before Yanni

but uh but yeah. So, yeah. Um

All right. Well, thanks for being my guest.

Oh, thank you. for everything. And we didn't even talk about us meeting out there. Um, but anyway,

that'll be the mystery of the show.

All right.

All right. Take it easy.

Thank you.

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