EP 53 Miss P Segal

Episode 53 with Miss P Segal is out now! Meet P. Segal, a foundational figure in the San Francisco Cacophony Society and the early evolution of Burning Man. The conversation traces the historical significance of 1907 Golden Gate, a massive Victorian residence that served as a creative clubhouse where artists collaborated on subversive urban pranks and planned the first desert excursion of the "Man" in 1990. Miss P details her transition from a caterer and restaurateur to a therapist, eventually returning to her roots by developing Art House, a non-profit initiative dedicated to establishing permanent housing co-ops for displaced artists. She shares a history that captures the shift from underground play to organized community activism, lamenting the gentrification of San Francisco while championing the enduring necessity of unstructured creative connection.

https://arthousesf.org/

https://journal.burningman.org/2022/02/burning-man-arts/global-art/helping-artist-communities/

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you. And now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Oh, what did you let in the house now? Oh, that Andy. Okay, today our guest is the one, the only, the Miss Seagull, welcome.

Thank you, Andrew.

So, Harley, who I interviewed a couple weeks ago, which is time-wise when people are listening to this is probably going to be what, like the end of March when it comes out, but uh Harley's going to be like January 1st, so this will be like much later. Um, so she has suggested interviewing you and she she described you. She's she She said, "Miss P, you have to you have to interview Miss P." And I was like, "Oh, you know, tell me about her." She's like, "Oh, she's the grandam of it is 1907 Golden Gate, right?"

Yes.

Um, that place really um made a lot of things happen because we brought together so many creative people under one roof. And um and of course it was the It was the headquarters, the unofficial clubhouse for the cacophony society. Uh where planning something unusual to do for our own amusement was uh what we did, you know, all the time, every day pretty much. People would just come up with ideas for things we could do that were that were really fun.

And our newsletter, which was called rough draft uh had a uh column where we talked about things that sounded like cacophony. And one of the things that appeared every year was this event that happened at Baker Beach where um uh Larry Harvey and Jerry James built this uh figure, a human figure and burned it.

So Oh, every year, you know, we thought as sitting around 1907, coming up with our own projects, we thought about, oh, we should go. And and some of the people involved with cacophony actually volunteered at that uh beach event for a long time and they said, "Yeah, you should come."

Well, how long was the Because it started, 1986, right? I mean, so how long before cacophony showed up.

I I think the first uh cacophony people to show up like John Law and um Michael Michael

Mhm.

Um probably went the second year. Oh

third year, but the fourth year uh a lot of us showed up. I came with um three of the uh people that lived in 1907. And that was the year that the um uh the park police came and said, "You can't burn it because it's a drought year." And on the cliffs over the beach there are all these very very uh wealthy uh people living

and they are afraid that u the burn would actually endanger their property. So, uh, that year there were there were a few hundred people at the beach

because it had grown in popularity. Um, and so my my uh friends and I were sitting there waiting to see what was going to happen. And there was this argument, you know, between the people who said, "Burn it, burn it, burn it."

Mhm. had the people who were actually concerned about the um potential fire hazard. So um we uh you know we just sat around for a long time while there was this discussion about what we should do next. But the people that I came with had come with me the previous year

to an event uh thrown by uh another artist friend of ours um Marshall Lions uh out at this weird place in Nevada.

And uh I had not been to uh his previous events out there, but one of my roommates had gone to a thing uh that was a 22 times larger than life croquet game. and he came home with all this, you know, all these um images of, you know, what that event was like. And I said, "Okay, next time Marshall does an event out there, I'm going." And so, two years later, he uh hosted a um a project called Youata Riata, which had nothing to do whatsoever with what it was. which was a um uh a um they they invited people to bring a sculpture, anything that would move in the wind.

Mhm.

And so my friends and I um built a uh um a uh a bed on wheels. Uh that was we created it because one of the people that went had just published a book of poetry um about uh a bed on wheels. So we had to to this place the Black Rock Desert and it was just so stunning that uh while we were sitting at the beach waiting to find out what was going to happen with the uh the figure of the man uh Uh, we all looked at each other and said, "We should take it out to the desert."

Was this 1989?

This was 1990.

Oh, was this 1990? So, the Yugata Riotta was was that 1990?

No, that was 1989.

That was 89. Okay.

But when you're sitting on the beach saying you should move it should be 1990. Okay.

Yes. So, that was Memorial Day 1990 at the beach. So, um, uh, you know, we, uh, Larry was just dumbfounded. He didn't know what to do. And, you know, I'm I'm pulling on his sleeves saying, "Larry, Larry, Larry, I know what to do. I know what to do." And, you know, he he uh he couldn't even concentrate on anything other than the current moment. So,

so we finally got his attention. I think John Law finally broke through to him and uh and he said, "Well, you know, how can we do that? You know, uh it's uh so far and you know, nobody's going to want to go out to the desert."

So, we said, "We'll do it. We'll we'll make it happen because that's what Kacopony did." And we started meeting at 1907 uh a few days later and about um oh maybe 80 people showed up for the first maybe not that many 40 50 people showed up

at the house and we talked about how we could make this happen and by um uh Labor Day uh of 1990 89 people were headed out to the playa with uh you know, minimal uh equipment. You know, we we went in cars and a truck, a huge rider truck that we put the man in and

uh some um you know, very minimal uh things like the the tent that we put up in the center of our circular encampment and Uh, I I did all the cooking for everybody.

Yeah. So, Harley told me that you brought like a big uh what was it? A turkey or something that you made out of hummus.

Oh. Um, I made a a desert out of hummus.

A desert?

Yeah. Uh, it was just a big um, you know, flat pan of hummus and I put uh palm trees made out of uh cinnamon sticks and and um herbs and uh rocks made out of little u buns and things.

So I you know created this this pia surrounded by uh you know a bread um

background. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, that's awesome. That's beautiful. No, because it's funny because the way the Harley described it, I was like I couldn't quite understand. I can't remember what it was. Some animal. She was like, "Oh, yeah. No, she made like a turkey or a lamb or something like out of vomit." And I was like,

"Oh, I knew what she was talking about. It was the uh it was a a sphinx."

Oh. And that like you you managed to transport that to to the PL without it like

coming apart like I just brought the stuff and and assembled it out there.

Oh, okay.

But I also uh brought a um a 40B uh clay sphinx that was made by one of the people at 1907 for um uh a party I had um uh catered for a band called uh I can't remember. I was a caterer for years.

Oh.

And I had a restaurant also for years. Anyway, so um I I was catering this party for this band uh called the Blue Nile. And uh my um one of the housemates made me a big clay sphinx, which was one of the props. for the catering gig. So, um I think it was the second year I I brought that out to the playa to um you know to you know for a prop.

Yeah.

But then when um we were leaving I was pretty tired of you know tripping over the you know huge clay sphinx. at 1907. And so, um, the day we were leaving the playa, I walked out very far where the, um, the, uh, surface of the playa hadn't been disturbed at all.

Mhm.

And I, I plunked the sphinx down and left it there.

Well, uh, I heard the following year that the kids in Gerlac went out to visit the Sphinx all the time.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Because to them it was like a really weird thing, you know, and not that many really weird things happened in Gerac in those days.

Well, I'm sure not much of anything happened.

Yeah, pretty much. And so, of course, because you know the rains would turn into Lake Lantan once again every year. uh the clay just melted into the playa

afterwards. I felt bad because I realized that uh you know the clay was not the same clay as the playa

and so I had actually disturbed the ecosystem

by leaving that out there.

Yeah. Well, you I think there's a learning curve to everybody like going out to the Black Rock Desert, you know, and the story just tell everyone is when I my brother and I first went in 96, you know, we we didn't really know much about it. We thought it was just a camping trip, you know, and and you know, we were used to camping and when you go camping, you you dig a hole in the ground and you build a fire pit, you know, and you have a fire and then when you're done, you you know, you kick the dirt over it to be responsible and you bury it. Like that's a responsible thing to do, right? You know,

anywhere else in the world. But

yeah,

I I have pictures of the clay sphinx which I can send you.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Put that in the show notes or something. Yeah. So you said you were catering had a restaurant. Was that the the P? Did you say the the P cafe?

Cafe P. Yes.

Cafe P. Yeah.

That was one of my big uh cacophony events. I got 40 people to read P with me.

So, so going back to the the origins of 1907 Golden Gate. So, when did you

because it 1907 Golden Gate was like it's an old San Francisco I guess it used to be like a a mansion or something many years ago. I was reading somewhere that it was like one of the few structures that actually survived the earthquake and fire.

Um and but like you know you so when did you you rented it out? In what like the 80s or something?

Yeah. 1984. Um when I was um uh when I came back from college, I moved back into North Beach where I was born and raised. Um and got this I got a flat for $300.

Wow.

It's like 10 times that now.

Oh yeah.

More than that. Like 20 times. fat now. Um, but uh my landlord who was um Chinese told me one day that uh his his daughter was moving here from Hong Kong and she wanted my flat. So, uh I had to move and I couldn't find another place in North Beach. There was simply not another vacancy.

Mhm.

And I started looking outside the neighborhood for places that would work. And so, uh, I went out to this, um, to this, uh, neighborhood which was, um, you know, pretty much straight up ghetto, uh, in the middle and, you know, an inner city neighborhood that was once very beautiful, but, uh, had gotten extremely rundown. Mhm.

over the years. And I looked at this place. It was the building was actually one of the first um apartment buildings in San Francisco. There were uh three floors um and the ground floor. And uh the flat that I rented there was the top floor and the attic

for uh $1,800. It was uh 4,800 square feet.

Wow.

And uh 14 rooms.

So, I filled it with artists. I think some of my friends moved in there with me and then we got, you know, we we uh just put out the word and got a lot of other artists to move in there with us. Um There was so much space you could be there all day and not know that anybody else was home because it was huge, right?

Uh and it was the, you know, the best party space I've ever had in my life.

We did phenomenal uh enormous parties there. Um especially at the around the end of the year here. You know, we'd start with uh Halloween,

excuse me, and then we'd do um uh Christmas, Seven Fishes, and uh and then a right after New Year, we did u um uh what's it called? The 12 uh 12th Night.

Oh, 12th Night. And And then of course right after we got back from the playa uh with Burning Man uh we did decompression.

Oh really? Even way back then.

Yeah. The first one was 1990. Uh and you know we we came home from the playa with you know everything covered with dust and we just left all the dust on everything cuz you know there were all these you know wood wooden floors and we just left all the dust everywhere so that when we did the party it was like being back at the playa.

Wow.

Yeah.

So how soon after you moved in in 1984 did uh Kacophony kind of come around and use it as a de facto kind of headquarters?

Well um Uh some of our roommates were uh art students at uh the Academy of Art. And at uh at that particular uh time uh there was a woman who was uh a student there and got to know our roommates and her name was Carrie Galbreth. Um she was a a um member of cacophony, but before that she'd been a member of of the suicide club.

So, you know, Carrie told the roommates, you know, you got to meet these friends of mine. You'll really like them. And so, uh we were throwing one of our massive social events and and they were invited to come. So, I'm I'm in the all redwood back parlor um you know, chatting with some of the guests when I see uh a hand coming in from outside an open third uh third floor window. And I knew perfectly well there was absolutely nothing outside that window except the wall. And then a few minutes later, uh, John Law comes climbing in through the window. He somehow managed to climb the building, but he was a daredevil in those days. So, and that was how I met my first um, you know, a member of the Coffee Society. And of course, as Carrie surmised, we loved them and they loved 1907. It was just and it was just a wonderful place to gather because it was beautiful. Beautiful. Um it was built by that the building was built by the uh architects who designed the um uh the dome of city hall.

Oh.

And built this building for themselves and it was like, you know, and and they got the top floor which had, you know, the views and uh so anyway,

they they built it with, you know, all redwood. Um the back parlor uh was uh redwood floor to ceiling and the ceiling and the floors was just really an extraordinarily uh charming place. But at when the when the uh neighborhood got run down um uh somewhere around um uh the 40s, 30s or 40s.

Mhm.

Um the the uh the building where uh um what's your name? All right. Anyway, so here was this building uh and it was surrounded by mostly boarded up places.

Uh and uh it was an all black neighborhood. It was actually perhaps the most friendly, pleasant neighborhood to live in I I I ever had. It was uh the the These people were uh mostly uh uh veterans who um came back to uh um you know buy houses in San Francisco on the GI Bill.

And so they uh you know they they bought these uh houses that were in you know disrepair and slowly over the years you know fix them up.

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh and and they were fascinated by those weird people who moved into 1907 and did all these interesting things. Some of them actually came to some of our parties and they always invited us to theirs. Like on the 4th of July, every family on the block came out and set up a uh um sort of u picnicy thing.

Okay. Like a block party thing.

Yes. Yes. And they were from, you know, all the various states, uh, mostly from the south.

Mhm.

And they all had different versions of the same dishes

and they would, you know, they'd say, "Oh, come and have our, you know, our this or that, our barbecue sauce, you know, and and there was this one guy who always carried my groceries home from the market. It was just amazingly friendly place and I I uh really got to love it.

Yeah, it's funny because I'm actually just looking at just Googled some pictures of it. I mean just the wood and like inside I'm like my god this looks amazing. So you guys you had the top floor because I guess there there was like a second and third floor too. So who lived there? Was it just other tenants?

I'm sorry I didn't hear you.

Oh because you had the top floor like you didn't have the whole building, right? I mean,

no, we had the top floor and the attic, which was the same size.

So, what about the people who lived like on the second or the third floor? Did they How did they put up with all these uh cacophony parties,

or did they like it?

Well, Harley lived right below us.

Ah, okay.

In fact, uh she was one of the people that read Poo with me and uh Uh, after that first year at the Playa, I said to Harley, "You have to come because we're doing this again. You have to come next year." And she said, "I don't like the desert. I don't want to go." I said, "You have to go."

So, was it just by happen stance that Heartley was just like had moved into the apartment downstairs? Like it was not that wasn't connected to cacophony or anything at all?

She was dating one of my roommates. Ah

and uh you know she she of course became a a member of the household u because you know she came to see him uh but when she needed to find another place and the apartment below us was available she took it.

Wow.

Yes.

So yeah. So so 1990 like uh park police kicks Burning Man like out of Baker Beach and you guys decide to take the famous what zone trip number four out to the Black Rock Desert. So did did 1907 Golden Gate like continue to be well or how much longer was it kind of like a nexus of activity for?

Well, um uh let's see. I opened the Center Camp Cafe in 95. Uh and then um by 2000, I mean, you know, I I've pretty much survived over the years um without ever having a real job,

you know,

and uh at some point I I I realized I needed to do something else. Um and I opened the restaurant in 99 and after that I mean I I closed the restaurant in uh 99 to do the cafe but it almost cost me the business

you know you can't close a new uh business for a couple of weeks.

Yeah.

U you know and survive because we opened it for almost nothing.

Uh uh because I I had this army of artists to take an empty space and make it fabulous. And we bought everything secondhand. It was

Yeah.

Anyway, I I realized that I absolutely could not uh you know uh close the restaurant again to do the cafe.

Well, how long did you operate the cafe? priest for you. Say you open it in 99.

I opened it in 99 and then um I you know never had any money. We you know we we just operated by the you know uh by good fortune but we managed to make enough money to stay open.

But after three years I was um able to uh apply for an SBA loan.

Okay,

they did. And they uh the the director of the SBA of the local SBA said uh how much did you spend to open this place? And when I told her, she just was, you know, her jaw dropped. She said, "You opened a restaurant in San Francisco for $60,000. And I said, "Yeah,

but she think you were lying or something."

She, you know, it was just unheard of. It costs

Yeah.

You know, a few hundred,000 to open a restaurant here. No.

Or even then, actually.

Oh, yeah.

Um, so she said, "How much money do you want?" And I said, "1000,000." And she said, "I'm not giving you a h 100,000. I'm giving you 200,000."

Okay. You're not

the check.

You have the check in three weeks.

Wow.

So, uh, we waited for the check and about, um, 10 days later 911 happened.

Oh,

so that was that for me ever getting any money from the SBA. Uh, we kept it open for a year after that. Uh, simply because the neighborhood wouldn't let us close.

Really,

people just, you know, invested money into keeping it open. But in fact, it was our success that killed us because we we never had enough money to make more money. It takes money to make money.

Yeah.

Basically.

Yeah.

So, uh, so yeah, then I knew I had get a, you know, a real job. And so I went to graduate school.

Oh, what did you go to graduate school for?

I became a therapist.

I hated it.

Well, I didn't hate it, but you know, I had spent my whole life basically enjoying it, you know, doing things just for the sheer pleasure of making amazing things happen. And suddenly, you know, I was I had this career where I sat every day listening to people complain about how terrible their lives were. Uh, and it at one point I was on my way in, you know, to see clients one day and I um I got this idea that I was going to ask Ask everybody how they amused themselves, what they did for fun. Uh, you know, and if they had nothing, no external thing, you know, to amuse them, how did they amuse themselves?

Yeah.

And every one of those people looked at me and said, uh, you know, watch a movie, re a book, you know. I said, "No, no. How do you make up your own entertainment?"

And none of them really could offer me anything, you know, that explained their idea of creative fun. And so I said, "Okay, that's your homework. I want you to come up with something that you uh do without any external uh um uh stimulus to uh to enjoy yourself. Well, about uh a couple of months later, these people started telling me, you know, I've been feeling so much better lately. Maybe I don't need to come so often

really.

And before I knew it, my entire my entire clientele was gone.

Ah, so successfully you put yourself out of business.

Yes, it was very it was a very successful uh practice. But I was really glad to be out of it because umh you know being a therapist is really hard work. You know you you especially if you're an empathetic person.

I would sometimes go home at the end of the day and cry. Wow.

About, you know, how how how miserable some people were and how badly they were treated by their families and, you know, all these things. And so I just wanted to do something else.

Yeah. Uh let's see. Let's get back to the um so you said you opened the Center Camp Cafe in 1995. Uh so when did you stop doing or or when did your participation in that kind of cease? Because I guess you said Was it 99 when you opened the the cafe P and then realized you couldn't do both?

Yeah. Yeah. So by 2000 I um I just stayed in the city and most of my staff went.

Ah okay.

But you know by then um the the number of people going leaving the city during that period of time to go to Burning Man, especially in our neighborhood

uh was huge. And so, you know, the clientele was limited. We we operated on a limited staff

and the through one wonderful party where we

covered the floors of Cafe P with beach sand and tents.

Really?

Yeah. We threw a not at burning man um party. Um but you know it it was again you know in uh in the years after Burning Man became known and this is especially true after Elon Musk came to the playa in 1997.

Oh is that when you first met?

Uhhuh.

Yeah. And you know, he started telling all the all the tech people, you got to go. You got to go. And uh you know, during the the uh uh the time of uh people being out on the play, uh you know, there were plenty of places to park all over town.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know, restaurants were empty. Uh It was it really made an amazing difference on the in the in the way the city was um because so many people were going.

Yeah, I moved out of I I lived there from like 94 to 2001. But um yeah, I remember that like uh getting ready like driving around San Francisco and like it's like oh we got to go to Costco and we got to go to the storage area and like oh we got to go to Safeway and we got to pick up this and everywhere we went there would be like box trucks and people like loading things and you just would have this kind of like knowing look and knowing nod and you just be like you go to Bernie man you go yeah yeah you know

yeah the excitement was really wonderful in those days

well because back then I mean it was mostly people from San Francisco I mean now Bryman has become much more like international I mean I'm not sure I mean what what is it like in the city at the end of end of August now. Not quite not quite the same vibe or

No, but you know, living in North Beach, um there there are almost no artists here anymore. There are almost no, you know, uh people who don't make, you know, lots and lots of money. And

yeah,

I don't know. It's just it's just not the same place. The city's not the same. Well, it's funny because you were saying in 1984 he rented out a 4,800 square foot 14 room top floor for $1,800. I remember like when my now wife like back girlfriend back then like we moved to San Francisco in '94 and we got like a it was like a studio apartment for like $325 and then we got this like

quote unquote twobedroom but it was really like one of the bedrooms was like a living room, you know? It was like 12 12 13 $00 or something and we're like, "Wow, that's a lot of money, you know." And then which later went up to like 1,500 and then I remember like one of our things like on the weekends we just like I wander around and be like, "Oh, look, there's an open house." It's like, "Let's just go in and and you know, we just like going in people's houses and checking things out, you know." But, you know, I'm in Noi Valley. There's still like, you know, $600,000 like detached single family homes and like I'm sure now it's like multi multi-million dollar So

yeah.

So have you been going to Burning Man like like all these years or like at what point did uh or did you stop going or do you still go?

Uh you know I haven't been in a long time. I think the last year I went was 2016 but um you know I had gone for years with the same people

and uh uh after I lost um 1907 um I you know I didn't have things anymore. I didn't you know I didn't have a huge storage space. I didn't have tents and sleeping bags and

and uh anything.

I also didn't have anybody who would drive me out there because I don't drive.

Oh.

Uh and And uh the last time I went, I couldn't find anybody to give me a ride

really.

Cuz the only the only reason why people would give you a ride to go out to the playa was because you were going to be the person who spent eight hours behind the wheel of the of the vehicle that it took to get from uh the road to the gate. Huh?

And when I said, "Well, I don't have a driver's license." They said, "Well, sorry. We're not taking you

really."

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, by then, by by 2016, it was like, you know, nobody nobody knew who I was anymore.

Yeah. Isn't that uh a thing? Well, no, because I've interviewed a number of people like um we're talking to Adrian Roberts, you know, who did the uh Piss Clear. Oh, no. Uh yeah, Pissclar and Black Rock Gazette. And you know, she's she went to Burning Man for decades and and I remember talking about like, "Oh, you should should come back." And she was just like, "I don't think anyone would know who I am." I mean, I felt the same way. Like I took like 13 years off. I mean, I first went in '96, but then by 2011, that was the last year I went. And then 2024, I I went back and, you know, I I stayed with some some friends and some some some old friends, some some new friends. But yeah, it was it was kind of strange. Like time passing you by, you're just like people coming up to it's like, "Oh, is this your first burn?" You're like, "No."

Uhhuh.

I can't believe like no one would give you a We'll have to change that. Well, if you want to go back, we'll we'll make things happen.

You know, I I think about it from time to time.

Mhm.

But what I loved about Bernie man that first decade was that we were making it up as we went along.

Oh yeah.

And the I I I love the making things happen stage of experience. Um most of all

Yeah.

But

yeah.

Well, it's interesting because I think Bernie man has gone through different eras, you know, like the I mean there's there's the the Baker Beach and and then like the 1990 to say 1996 or so, you know, and then like after like a 96 when they actually kind of more like incorporated and got a little more, you know, started formalizing I guess a little more. And then I would say from 96 to maybe 2011 or 20 I think 2011 was the first year it sold out and then you know 2012 to roughly 20 22 or 23 years. So, you know, when you know that those like all the the sold out years, you know, and now it kind of seems it's almost like it's like a new era has kind of started like in the past couple of years where it's like hasn't quite sold out and I don't know the the vibe is kind of shifting back a little bit, but I don't know. It's still kind of early, but So, when did you lose golden 1907 golden 2004.

Well, one of the things I was

reading in um the Cacophony Society book is that like uh like I guess like the heyday of the cacophony society was was was more like the 80s maybe early 90s and I'm not sure if it was attributed to you but like somebody said something about that uh the rough draft, you know, like the the paper newsletter that that went around that would like let everybody know what was going on. I mean, some people would subscribe and get it mailed to them. Some people would just pick it up at a a coffee house or something. Uh once like the internet came around, it's like the the paper newsletter wasn't really as needed anymore. And I think I'm not sure if it was attributed to you, but they said like, "Oh yeah, the internet basically killed cacophony. Uh in in well actually Burning Man kind of killed cacophony.

Oh yeah.

Because in the um you know in the early years we would you know just gather around the kitchen table and come up with some new weird thing to do for fun.

Mhm.

But after we went out there the first year um we gathered around the kitchen table to plan what we were going to do for Burning Man. the next year.

And a lot of the projects were fairly large, you know, for you know, for people who didn't really have, you know, uh workshops and things like that. So, um you know, all of we we put all of our attention really into um uh going to Burning Man and and developing a a culture of Burning Man, which was

which was fascinating, too. You know, it was really we loved that as much as we had loved um you know, midnight walks through sewers in formal dress, you know, all these bizarre things, reading crews, just

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we we put all of that creative energy into um you know making Burning Man more and more fascinating and uh entertaining and inclusive. We spent so much time um you know talking people into coming out next year. So basically the um the size of the Burning Man community pretty much double every year um for a long time. You know, like the first year there were almost a hundred people, the second year there were 200 people, the third year there were 400 people.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it was uh you know it was a wonderful thing to make happen.

So back in San Francisco at at 1907 so starting in 1990 like Britney May was just sucking the oxygen out of the room for local cacophony events and things.

Absolutely. But it was so good. It was worth it.

Well, what about uh like the rough draft and and uh I mean were there any other like zone trips or I mean any other like you know walking through the sewer? I mean like did that all just just immediately dry up or just kind of peter out over time or

Well, you know there were occasional events. Um uh but but it pretty much evaporated uh you know after a year or two.

There was a a a sort of splinter group of younger people who started their own kind of um you know cacophony equivalent and kept things going. Uh

but those of us who had you know, put all our energy into creating Burning Man for the first few years, pretty much stayed there.

So, what was the last issue of the of the Rough Draft then?

Or has it continued on?

It has not continued on. Uh, but I I can't actually remember remember what year it was.

Mid 90s or early 90s, you think? Maybe.

Uh, somewhere in there.

Yeah. Huh.

I mean, I have I have all the issues in a box in storage and I could I could actually go through the box and tell you.

Well, I'm just just kind of curious.

Yeah. Well, oh, that's kind of interesting because like back in in era

like I was just watching a a movie with my wife and it was like set in like that the mid '9s and you know there's these people like walking down the street and like absolutely no one was looking at their hand you like no one was looking at a phone you know and I was just like wow what a different world you know like

I mean perhaps something

still look at my phone

yeah but perhaps something like cacophony is like you know

what society kind of needs now is a little more like immediacy you know like people kind of get out and do something get out of their you know their comfort zone and do something more immediate like with other people.

Uh I understand that there are um uh you know cabals of young people doing their own stuff like John Law who was um you know very very central to um making Burning Man happen and now hangs out with a bunch of uh you know college age kids who do things like set up um uh club houses in underground um places under the city.

Mhm. H

all these other uh you know urban exploration kind of events.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's all very kind of underground, right? I mean they it's kind of they don't they don't really publicize it. Right.

They don't at all. Whereas it was, you know, Kakavan's um uh thing was to, you know, to engage people, to bring people in, to make, you know, to build the community. Uh these people are much more uh exclusionary partially, you know, by necessity because so much of what they do is uh, you know, not legal.

Yeah. You know, the you know, you're not supposed to be in underground um uh you property that's owned by the city and you know is where you know various inundry things uh related to um the functioning of the city go on you know

well I'm sure also post 911 you know the it takes on a whole different flavor you know like pass or criminal trespass. You know, it's like ah that's a you know.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh let's see. Let's uh get to our second question then. Uh so, where does life begin for you? So, like where where were you born? Where did you grow up?

I grew up in North Beach.

Oh, so you're San Francisco native through and through.

Yeah. My real name is Roberta Petementi.

Ah,

I I just happened to marry someone named Seagull when I was in college. And uh uh by curious coincidence, so many people we knew had the same first name. Mhm.

We called each other by the first initials of our last names.

Oh,

you know, so uh my first initial was P.

Mhm.

It was the only one that stuck. That's I became P Seagull because I knew too many people with the same first name.

Oh, that's funny.

Uh Uh and uh you know I grew up in the Italian community. Uh and I I adored North Beach. It was so it was so charming. It was you know the beat poets had had moved uh to North Beach in the late 40s after World War II

because it was the one place in San Francisco that in um in the United States that reminded them of Europe.

Ah. And uh you know uh we we'd you know sit in the cafe triest and um watch uh uh you know all these famous writers sit there and you know work on their uh screenplays or their novels or whatever. And uh there were all these filmmakers in the neighborhood. Of course um Satrove Studios was opened here and

city You you couldn't go into a cafe in those days and not meet somebody who was writing a book. It's just, you know, every third person was writing a book.

It's just funny because I was googling just some pictures of Cafe Pisco and Cafe Trieste keeps coming up.

Yeah,

that's funny.

Yeah, that was that was our clubhouse in those days.

Ah,

and also the sav.

So, were your parents did they did they grow up in San Francisco or are they from uh Italy?

Uh, my father came from Sicily.

Oh,

actually uh uh let's see what year did he come here?

Remember exactly what year he moved here, but um and my mother uh grew up in the uh Italian community in New York.

Um well, she was born here, but English was her second language. So, uh I was my family was very oldworld.

Yeah. Well, no, cuz my father was born in the US, but like his parents came through Ellis Island, like they're both you like from northern Italy, uh near Lake Torino.

And uh yeah, and I just remember like the the Sunday morning or Sundays, you know, driving to grandma's house and you have this big huge spread and it's like all homemade like ravioli and pasta. Even to this day, you know, it's like I'm teaching my son, you know, like how to make pasta and ravioli and stuff. It's like, oh, this is how grandma would make it, you know.

Wow.

You know, I was going to ask you because obviously your name suggested that you two came from the same

Yeah.

Well, not the same because the northerners and the southerners different.

Yeah.

In some ways.

Mhm. I don't know. I I I have a lifelong love of ponotone and and brato, you know, which is more northern Italian than southern Italian, I guess. Yeah.

Can't blame you at all.

Yeah. Just even now this time of year when Christmas, I just remember like all the Christmas cookies, you know? It's like all the the Italian Christmas cookies like of all the different shapes and sizes. and colors.

Yeah.

I'm just about to make them.

Oh, really? Oh. Wow.

Yeah. But, you know, for the first time in my life, I live in a place so small that I don't have room for I can't even invite friends to dinner.

Really?

This is this is heartbreaking for me.

Yeah. So, so what is life like from now? Because I know we talked before and so you have like a new project trying to find like housing for artists like Oh, tell me about that.

Yes. Um I I guess uh you know right around the time I stopped going to Burning Man almost exactly at the same time. In fact, um I realized that uh almost all my artist friends had moved out of the city because it was no longer possible to afford uh housing. and studio space. Um, or to work part-time like we, you know, all did,

you know, like I do about maybe three catering gigs in a month and then I had the rest of my time to, you know, write books or whatever, you know, do creative projects.

Uh, and of course by then the cost of living here had um you know gone up significantly. So um I realized that you know the really the only way that we could restore the arts community was to create co-ops, you know, where um you you could live uh at a you know for a reasonable amount of money in exchange change for contributing to the functioning of the co-op. And you could also use the co-op um businesses to promote the work of the artists who live there.

So uh you know like uh a building would have a gallery space or a cafe um or a bookstore. So I started evolving this um this concept of how to do it and talking to people um about it. And in fact in 2016 on the way uh out to the playa uh I no it was 2015

I stayed at the hotel uh uh in Gerlac. Uh that was started by uh a couple of brothers who um bought an old hotel and turned it into a I guess that you call it a um a a stop on the way to the playa.

Yeah.

I forgot the name of it. But they actually helped me set up uh a nonprofit

country Motel or Bruno. No,

why can't I remember their names? They were so they were such lovely people. Um but uh then I began investigating the um you know philanthropy, you know, where could I get the money to do this and If it turns out pretty much that there isn't a foundation in America that uh cares about housing artists. I mean, America commodifies artists completely.

Mhm.

They're producers of things that you buy. They're not part of the common good. They're not important parts of uh the the social fabric, you know.

Yeah. And so I started, you know, uh I became a, you know, a uh I guess you'd say uh uh philosopher on the subject of uh the importance of art in the world.

I mean, it's something that everyone in Europe knows. Everyone, in fact, all over the world knows. We're one of the few countries in the entire planet that doesn't have an arts secretary on the cabinet.

Never knew that.

And uh yeah, I mean I you know every European country um subsidizes artists, they subsidize bookstores, they subsidize anything that uh you know uh is part of the developing culture and this country doesn't. And so I've uh been um advocating for uh the value of artists um for uh you know just about 10 years and writing about it a lot you know publishing articles getting interviewed um and it's only been in the most um you know the last year or two that people have started to take me Seriously.

Well, I just think it's very interesting that, you know, you take like a an area that people don't want to live in or that someone would call it blighted or whatever or undesirable and then like, you know, artists are like, "Oh, that's a cheap place to live." Like kind of like what you're saying with like 1907 Golden Gate, you know, and then people like move into these neighborhoods and then and then make it kind of hip, you know, and they kind of fix it up. And then other people are like, "Oo, is this the new arts community?" And then and then rates start going going up and then you know more wealthy people start moving in and then the artists can't afford to live there and now I don't know it just seems like an interesting sort of cycle but the artists I don't know they they kind of come in and fix it up but then can't stay there and then where do they go

right yes I mean it's and that's part of the way I have been able to to um uh you know help promote the idea of you know settling artists in um cities. I just published an article uh in a magazine uh for city planners

where I talk about how uh you know this phenomenon exists and you know if you know all the all the various ways that artists are beneficial for uh the urban uh community and how you can use their presence to make things, you know, better. So, uh

what was the

where was that published and what was the name of the article? I'll I'll put it in my show notes.

Uh it's called the magazine's called Planetizen and uh it it's been around for like 35 or 40 years or something. I can actually send you a link to the article.

Okay.

Yeah.

Uh

All right.

And here now what they're doing is um they're just trying they're just trying to move out all the people who aren't rich. It's it's part of an a plan devised at Stanford in the uh in the early 80s

uh in the development plan for the Bay Area where the idea was to put all the rich people in San Francisco and to move everybody else out to the suburbs.

It seems kind of like a not very wellthoughtout plan though, don't you think? I mean, because I remember like even when I was living there like in the 90s and like people were getting priced out and and it's like well where are all the essential workers going to come from? You know, like oh well they can just commute 2, three hours whatever. And it's like, you really think people are going to want to do that? You know, it's like, are these all these rich people going to serve themselves? Are they going to have robots?

Right.

Yeah. I know. I mean, sometimes I think it would, you know, you know, just serve them right if people stopped being willing to commute into the city to take care of them.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. We'll uh kind of run up some time here. We need to get to our last question. So the um the impact or influence of of Burning Man on your life,

I guess on my life.

Yeah. I would say what would you say?

Well, you know, uh Larry told me, uh somewhere in the early 201 He said, "You know, you don't have to come to Buring Man anymore. You know what it is because you live that way." And so, you know, in in some ways, I'd like to think that I was able to uh give something about what I know about life to the experience of being out there.

Uh Did it change my life? Absolutely. Um but uh you know I've always been an enormous um believer in uh community uh sharing um you know giving whatever you had to give to people.

Um you know assuming the good in people uh and making things happen. Those, you know, those have been part of my uh my personal philosophy uh pretty much all my life. And so, uh what was so wonderful about Burning Man was seeing how how many other people responded so fully to things that I believed myself. Uh I I remember um one time out on the playa or in the early years I I saw someone walking towards me. I was walking alone, you know, between one place and the next and another person was walking alone between one place and the next and we just met and embraced each other and and then walked away. And it was it was symbolic of of the uh you know the the family of man, you know, the the the love for our fellow human beings. And after um after Silicon Valley uh you know became so prevalent out there and had their um you know their uh you know little separated facilities with all those service vehicles and everything and they wouldn't let you in

your compounds.

Yeah. I think that's when uh you know it it it was no longer so compelling to go

for me

because um um that openness that that universal loving sensibility um that characterized the early years, you know, had kind of been co-opted by uh you know, people who didn't understand that it's still out there. I know it's still out there even though I haven't been in years.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Because because I know, you know, Uh I know what it has done for people who had never been before. I meet people who had just gone for the first time and you know were just so blown away by what is possible out there.

Oh yeah.

You know so you know uh it's it's still there. I know it's still there. And what's going on right now with the reorganization um is uh is very significant. I think I think it's going to perhaps um you know return to a lot of the old uh values.

Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, I think there's definitely like a a generational kind of handoff that's starting to begin to happen as well. And you know, like you're saying, like the uh the these giant pay for play camps and these like tech oligarchs and whatever. It's like yeah mean that's that's definitely was like an era of Burning Man, but but it definitely seems like now that I've kind of gone back like two years and last two years like I don't know it it definitely seems like a bit of a a shift and I don't know I always ask like my guests you know like what impact and what influences Bernie and I try not to like you know lead the witness or put the words in people's mouth you know but It's funny because like the the the theory of my show like everyone keeps coming back to the same thing. It's kind of like what you just said. It's uh what I call it connection where you know people you know the question I always ask is like it's like why why go why keep going back like after like all these years and you know you spend all this money and you run through all these relationships and it's so hard you know hard and and what people keep coming back to it's like it's it's relationships. you know, it's connections and like you're saying like just two random people meeting on the PL. I mean, it's like you can that's something you can find, you know, out there or perhaps I guess now in regional events, too, you know, but not so much in regular everyday life, you know. I I try to do that. You I see someone at the street corner and I look in their eyes and go, "Hi, you know, and they're kind of freaked out like, "Oh my god, this guy's talking to me, you know."

Yeah. Uh Uh, I can't help myself from smiling at strangers all the time, you know, in passing, you know,

just because, you know, because uh I don't know. I don't know why, but just to let them know that um they're valued.

Yeah. Well, you know, Yeah,

we should if you ever want to come out to the ply I could definitely we can talk. We can help get you out there, you know, but uh I'm sure there'd be lots of people would love to see you.

Uh some people I I know and love still go on a regular basis.

Yeah.

Um uh but have you met Rob Schmidt?

Rob Schmidt? No. Who's Rob Schmidt?

He's a He's kind of like a shadow a shadow uh I don't know asset to the project. He's he's there. He makes things happen, you know. Uh he's um you know, always always uh you know, he knows everybody. He knows how to make things work, you know. Anyway, he still goes every year and uh know camps in the periphery and does whatever is needed and you know leaves.

But uh you know I I do not know any people anymore who will come you know drive into San Francisco to get me and my stuff and take me out there and have a tent for me and you know all that. stuff. So, um you know that's why I have not been um but you know everything is changing uh at this very moment in time with um uh making the art house project uh happen and after that happens a lot a lot of other things will also happen like I can see taking out uh you know a huge community of art house people to do Burning Man

and make things.

So, Art House is the that's the name of the the co-op the artist co-op project you're working with

is there um is there like a link for that or if someone like looked it up it would just be like art house?

Yes, absolutely. Uh It's um the the website is uh artthouse sf.org.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I'm just looking at it. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'll put that in my uh show notes, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful, wonderful interview and yeah, we should stay in touch. I mean, um I'm not going out next year, but uh maybe the year after, but uh I don't know. Well, would love to like help facilitate you coming back out to the plan one of these days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I do miss it in some ways. Uh although I must say it was I was delighted not to be there when it was pouring this year.

Well, yeah. I I think that what was it 20 23 when it rained for like a day or two or three whatever however many days straight like that was like I think much much much worse. I mean this year it was like eh I mean I was stuck in line for 20 hours like my brother like trying to get in like uh yeah I mean but you know it builds

well thank you so much for asking me to do this by the way

it's my pleasure. Yeah yeah yeah

yeah

I'll send you some stuff. All right. Well, thank you.

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