EP 57 Arash

Episode 57 with Arash is out now! Meet Arash, the creator and host of the longest-running Burning Man podcast (the Burner Podcast). We talk about the history and evolution of burner media, highlighting the technical and emotional challenges of documenting a community defined by radical self-expression and human connection. Arash reflects on his decade-long journey from being an "annoyingly responsible" co-lead at the event to finding personal liberation through physical labor and artistic service. He talks about the transformative power of the Burning Man community, the importance of maintaining creative work as a gift rather than a commodity, and the use of the desert experience to reconstruct one's identity. Arash describes how the "underground" fosters a sense of belonging and permission to live life on one's own terms.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party, drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to Shadow the Man Show. I am your host Andy, that famous podcaster. No, no, no, no, no, no. That Andy. Today our guest is one and only Arash. Welcome. So Arash has the let me get this right. It's it's the oldest show. It's the oldest podcast about Bernie man, right? It's like the original.

It is based on what I can confirm. It's the longest running one. So there's there's

very there's tons of Bernie man media out there. There have been other people who attempted podcasts

early on and like went for a little while and then stopped.

Um there are others who dabble in podcasting, but as far as like the traditional audio just you know people talking uh traditional podcast structure. It's the longest regularly running one in the community.

Yeah. Congratulations. And it's what over 10 years and you just celebrate 10 years?

Yeah. Yeah. I think it just just got over 10 years.

Wow. So, well, we're recording this in middle of December, but I think I think your show is going to come out in April.

I don't know. I'm a bit ahead of schedule. Nice.

I'm proud of you. I'm envious.

Well, I mean, this all kind of started as an experiment. I mean,

uh, well, as my listeners will know, this like I first went to Burning Man in 96 when I was living in San Francisco and, uh, moved to Hawaii 2001, started the Hawaii regional group here, and then by 2011, like, you know, my son was born in 2008, and so and every year after that, I was trying to to quit and be like, I can't do this anymore. So, finally, by 2011, that was my last time. going to Bernie man and I was just like, "Okay, okay, I'm out." And then I just kind of like just ripped the plug. I'm just like, "I'm out. I'm out. I'm out." But then, you know, at my job, it's like I listen to podcasts all day. And after a year or two, I was like,

you know, it's like I kind of miss Bernie man, but I'm not going to go,

you know? So, I started like looking around for like the longest time. There was just like there's nothing, nothing, nothing. And I was like, there's only this podcast and there's like nothing about Bernie man. And then I just kind of stopped looking,

you know, and then like uh I think a little after 2020, 2022 or something. I started looking again. Yeah, I remember I found your podcast. I mean, the Burning Man live, you know.

Actually, I just interviewed Stuart Mangram. He's going to be coming out like on Monday.

But yeah, actually that's another thing I wanted to talk to you about because I was talking to Stuart and I was like, you know, it would be a great idea for for a show for you for Bernie man live is to do a Bernie band live show about Bernie man podcasts.

Yeah.

You know, it's like it's like you could have on Arash, you can have on the, you know, the Accuracy third guys, you could have on, you know, um there's also God, what was his name? Um this life as a festival. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm familiar. Yeah. I met him actually at Bernie.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like you said, like there's a number if I noticed there was like a number of just like podcasts or shows that they did like six episodes and then just nothing ever again.

Yeah.

Well, I mean what you're describing in my experience, I mean, I've been podcasting, you know, burner podcast has been like 10 years.

Yeah.

But like even prior to that, I was uh doing a show into underground hip-hop scene and you know, we saw early on that iTunes is just like a graveyard of all these amazing podcasts that got like three or four episodes going

and then they're like, "Oh s***, this is work." And then and then they stopped. Um,

yeah.

So, I I remember early on when I started Burner Podcast, I was like, my commitment

is to just continue to put out as s***** a show as possible because I think that's I'm just going to like stay on the treadmill as long as I can.

Yeah.

Rather than, you know, and and then then when the other podcast came out and like I'll say like for example like Accuracy, I always say like they really helped liberate me because their show um actually has like uh production value. So they they kind of made the show that I wished I was making. So when they started doing that, that completely freed me up even more to just you know be be the personality based show rather than like the more edited produced show.

Yeah. Yeah. And so for me for for my show like I you know I listen to a number of other shows and I listen to lots of podcasts over the years and I've always like it's like well if I was going to do a show how would I do it you know and

Yeah. I don't know. I I kind of stumbled upon this formula. I mean, it I it's basically just kind of cookie cutter at this point, you know, like I I just used Garage Band. I remember talking to the Accuracy third car guys and they're like, "You use Garage Band?" And I was like, "Yeah,

it's it's free."

I met up with them in San Francisco years ago and yeah, I remember like the way they got into it. I was like, "Wow, you guys actually have like a plan that's amazing."

Really? Well, well, what's their I mean They had like they actually had like studio time scheduled and like they you know edit stories together and you know it's uh and I mean of course like that's like eased up just from what I've heard over the years. Um but but yeah for me it was just like you like just a mic and the previous podcast that I was co-hosting I had my co-host was a sound engineer so it was it was a lot more produced if you will.

And then when I started this I I just really wanted to it's really an excuse to connect with with burners, you know, and I was like this is something that I'm good at. I'm hilariously not technical. I like I do not care about technology. I can't like

It's funny because I'm a professional photographer and I'm like people ask me about cameras all the time. Like I could not care less about cameras. Like but

but the human connection, the storytelling, that's what moves me. And whatever I got to do to make that happen, I I can be with the mic.

Yeah. Yeah. I always joke around with people that the universe I think is is keeps telling me that I'm supposed to be Amish. He's like constantly keeps failing me all the time.

Like why doesn't it work? I turn this switch on. Why is it

I like that. I've considered it. I regularly pretty on a daily basis.

The the neck beard thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

I do eat a lot of butter. I don't know if that means anything.

You got turn your own butter now. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I still buy it.

Yeah.

But yeah, so with my show, it's basically just kind of a conversational sort of thing. Yeah. It's just oneonone conversations I have with people, you know, and then when it's done, it's just kind of I have a template. It's just kind of copy and paste. I mean, occasionally there's some people there's some technical issues I have to kind of go back through kind of like every time it's I have to edit was like, oh,

yeah,

I gota I gotta edit this now.

Yeah. But when it's like accuracy third, they were like, oh yeah, yeah, you know, and I was telling them it's like, oh, I don't do any editing at all. And they were just like,

yeah,

like, oh yeah, just copy and paste, put it in. And they were just like, but no editing at all. I was just like, yeah, what for? You know, it's a conversation.

I've recently uh have started to utilize AI for editing.

Um,

it's, you know, helping get rid of like easing up some of the things like if I need to do some little tweaks here and there to make the the recording more palatable.

Yeah.

Um and then I think the most editing I've ever had to do on an episode was when I sat with the the folks from Celtic Chaos.

The big giant the big Irish camp on Playa.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Their lead um he was such a great guy. He he passed away a few years ago but Um he uh he basically just sent out an invite to like the whole camp. And so when we started recording there's like 11 not yet drunk Irish folks in a tiny apartment in the Sunset District and and then um more showed up and then lots more Guinness was consumed and everybody got absolutely demolished. And I say demolished there was like like a fair amount of drunkenness. where enough people are talking over each other and then having to figure out all that sound editing was um

it took a little while,

but it was it was it was a great portrait of their camp culture for sure.

I've kind of figured out that like if I have to go back and do editing, if it's just a couple of things, it's like, oh, that's no big deal. But if it starts, like I say, like snowballing and it's like

and I'm taking hours and I'm going on I'm just like, you know, I don't I don't think this episode's worth.

Yeah. Yeah. I actually had my one and only time I actually had to re-record a show cuz I I actually interviewed Harley and

for whatever I think I had like a setting wrong in Zoom and like I was getting an echo but she wasn't so she was just getting like jabbering on and on and then later on like every time I spoke it was like echo echo echo you know and so then I just went back and I was like editing out like every little bit of anything that I said and it was like oh god this sucks and then she contacted me later was like

yeah how about we redo that. Yeah. Yeah.

I've had those experiences as well.

And then I started doing this thing on the playa where this year uh called shadow shorts where I was, you know, I kind of I mistakenly kind of set up between the man and the temple and I was like I'm going to go out there and just collect these like little five minute little snippets with people and it's like I call the shadow shorts challenge where it's just like state your name like state where you're from, state how many years you're burning and like and what impact or influence this is burning Manhattan. You go like five minutes, you know, this clock like five minutes go, you know, they're like uh you know, but there's like some really cool stories and all people from all over the world and it was just it's awesome just like you have five minutes to explain Bernie man's influence on you and they're like, you know, but I had some really great stories, but then I came back and everyone that was like outside like the wind was like, you know, and I tried like editing it out and it was just like uh this This sucks.

Yeah.

A few years ago, we had a uh art project that we brought out which was like a little recording studio and had we had kind of this kind of idea, but nobody manded. It was like automatic recording.

Oh.

And we ended up getting placed um all the way at the end of the city by like playground.

And uh

so there's just like it's like the party end of the town. Like everybody is partying. Everybody is like hammered. They're yelling over each other. The sound was absolute s***. So I sat on those recordings for I don't know, four, five years.

Yeah.

So then ended up releasing it as a time capsule episode.

Oh, that's cool.

I'm just wondering what it sounds like. It's like

leaned into it and like Yeah. Yes, that's what it sounded like. I leaned into it and I made it more of a um uh made it like funny and like added like recording cut sounds. things like that. So,

yeah. Yeah.

But it only took five years to release.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it's like hidden gold, right?

All right. Well, let's get to your story. So, uh what was the the first year you hit the Playa?

Uh 13, 14, I believe. I think it was 14 cuz I think 13 was when I got into the San Diego burn community. And I was uh and I immediately was immediately like sucked in, immediately fell in love with this community and with the people and was active like super active immediately in San Diego um for a whole year and then ended up going to Burnham.

So, how did you did you have like friends who like who were like, "Oh, yeah, you might like this." Or you just how did you find the San Diego community?

I was at that time working for the San Diego Unified Court District.

Mhm.

And And there was another guy in my office who um was a hip-hop music producer. And so he and I started chatting and connecting over hip-hop. And he kept telling me about his buddy, a buddy of his who threw these underground parties. That's what he kept calling it. He's super like he's not a burner, but like it was uh but his buddy turned out to be a gentleman by the name of Jay Huller, who is a I think like a one of the one of the one of the most important sort of like behind the scenes community leaders that we've had in San Diego to helping make things happen.

And um so yeah, so we ended up going to First Utopia and the first night I had a mushroom trip that absolutely kicked my ass and then the second day I had the most amazing acid trip I've ever had in my life. Um and then Sunday at at this funny because I was originally going to leave like on Saturday. I was like, I don't know if I'm having a good time. I feel like I should just get out of here. I don't know if this is working for me, this camping thing. And I'd never camped before, ever.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And um Yeah. But then Sunday after I went through the whole hero's journey of that weekend, I was like, where the f*** have people my whole life, you know, and and I was in I was immediately in. I was immediately making friends with, you know, and I tend to usually when I fall into like a new community, connect with the folks that are making decisions, like how can I help, how can I contribute, how can I do this?

Uh, and yeah, I was I was sucked in pretty much immediately. And I didn't even think I could actually make it to Burning Man for another couple years, but ended up going that year.

I mean, had you even heard of like the Black Rock City or like Burning Man like way on the the desert or

Yes, in passing. I'd not looked at all into it.

Uhhuh.

Um, I didn't I didn't I just I I'd heard it come up. I had a I have a memory of a like being with a couple of buddies and like looking at an old fraternity brother's um photos that they've been to Burning Man. They're like, "Oh, Loki went to Burning Man. Whoa." You know, and it was that kind of response. And I think I just I don't know. Maybe um as I'm answering this question to you, it's occurring to me that um I'm I am pretty good at like nodding along to things.

Mhm.

And figuring like, okay, if I don't understand every detail of what this conversation is being had right now, I'll figure it out later.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, and I think part of the reason that I'm good at that is because like my mom is like terrible at it and she would like, you know, slam the brakes on a conversation in order to understand every like the tiniest little thing. And being that English was not my first language. I think like early on I developed that skill set um or that that habit if you will and then it turned into a skill set I think as an interviewer uh when I would interview all these like rappers and stuff on on Sundays

and I'm like I don't understand 40% of what you said but I'm just going to like be really good at flowing along keeping the conversation flowing. Um so yeah so I think I'd heard about Burning Man and it was always like in that kind of context I'd go like oh people are talking about this thing that's ly pretty significant, but I don't get it. Maybe at some point I'll learn more about it. Shrug. Uh, and then

because people just have like a clear idea in their own head and it's like, you know, right? And you're just like smile and your head like, yeah, you know,

yeah, I had nothing. I had nothing. And then when I when I found the Utopia, I just uh I was blown away that there's this large a population of people who are in agreement with me about how we should human.

Mhm.

Mhm.

I was blown away by that. And then when I went to Bernie man, I'm like, "Holy s***, there's just many people out in the world who agree with me." I always thought I was like the one weird loner in every group I was in, you know?

You found your people.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Yeah. So, so you had like at least like as you're drive, I'm assuming you were driving up there from from LA at that point, you know, allow it must be a long drive,

but uh Was that like 11 hours or something?

I know it's long enough where we got delirious and every time I go there's San Dieans are like we're going to power through and then like when we get almost there we realize that everybody's tired and some part of the car needs fixing and we should get a hotel or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know I mean just like just like you know this this long like epic like journey going out there and it's like okay you've been to the San Diego regional and like you said you found these this these people. But

I don't know. It must have just been still like you like as you first see the Black Rock Desert just be like

what is this?

You know I was the media like when you when he when he got through the the greeters like roll around in the dust and then like ringing the bell I mean were you kind of like trepidacious like ah I don't know.

The funny thing is the um the greeter I think was just kind of like she was just done like she was done when I private and she's just like, "Yeah, yeah, well, welcome to lockdown. We're out there the default world." But she's giving the spiel, but it's like very

monotone. And then she's like, "You can do a dust angle if you want. I'm not going to make you

and then I kind of like got down very anticlimactically and um

roll like this." Yeah. Yeah.

I um you know, I I recorded the first episode of Turner podcast uh Uh before I actually made it out to Black Rockck City, I did the first interview. Yeah. And I knew

the thing is I knew immediately that my focus was going to be the the community the rest of the year rather than Burning Man itself.

Um I feel like there's more than enough media out there of people doing it way better than I will ever do. Um so I kind of took like same angle that I did with the hip-hop podcast where we were like interested in like the management team like the people the behind the scenes team the the producer of so and so show you know what's going on uh in the whole ecosystem rather than only the main star right um so I recorded the first interview in San Diego with Brady Mahaney who's a community leader in San Diego and um the funny thing that happened is that so so my producer at that time was Meg King. She was basically like she knew everybody. She served in bunch of leadership positions and our agreement was like, I'm just going to you're just going to set up the interviews. I don't even need to know anything about the person. Um and we're going to you're going to figure that out together. And um so it was a lot of fun to do that. I I put the same I applied the same thing that I did with the hip-hop show, which is like we had other people doing the bookings and stuff and I just showed up and was in talent mode. And so then we recorded the first episode and then Meg had a family situation and she was the co-lead on San Diego's regional project that year and so she couldn't go. She asked she's like, "Would you like to go instead in my place? Here's your ticket. Here's the ride. You're gonna you're gonna co-lead um you're gonna co-lead uh uh on Playa with Jim Ops, who's the other And so when you're asking like how was it when I went like I arrived and um it took a long time for me to like really surrender get into it because I immediately was absolutely fixated on my responsibility to the community.

So you just showed up and they put you to work.

Yeah. Yeah. It was funny because like people kept thanking me for that. They're like, "Wow, your first burn and you're the co I'm like, "Yeah." And I kept like not really thinking much about it because this is like a I don't know like a brown person guilt thing where like we have to immediately be like working

again like you didn't quite understand the context and like would you like to do this thing and you're like sure you know and you get like wow you volunteered for that at a certain point where you're just like

wait what did I volunteer for like in like what am I supposed to do like

um it was it was really rough week. Let me I mean I can't you know

like how was the learning curve? We were just like

I got my ass kicked. People kept like all week people were asking like hey are you having fun? And I'm like I don't know. Is this fun? Are we having fun right now? Can somebody explain to me what fun is? Uh and yeah know it was it was kind of brutal and but no no part of me like I don't know. I'm just like I'm I'm I'm a annoyingly responsible person. Like I don't know what that is. I don't know what the

personality type part of it is, but

yeah. No, but over the year I've noticed that there's different types of people, right? There's some people that go to just party at the party, right? And then there's other people that go to work the party, right? I mean, different people kind of get their pleasure and like in different pleasure.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, but like it's like I'm the type of person where like Yeah. I'm always just kind of like, is there enough ice? Is there enough booze? You know, it's like oh my god, like that person's in let's take care of that, you know. Yeah.

And other people are just like,

I don't feel that burning me to work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, no.

What are you doing?

I know exactly what you're describing. And um I've figured myself out well enough to know how my rhythms work. And

so, um I over the years what it's turned into is that I know that if I have responsibility, I know that if I have a shift like on Thursday or something, I can't fully let loose. Mhm.

It won't happen. Which is part of the reason why I got so deep into doing the podcast, which is like I'm like, I'm gonna do this thing that is a gift to the community all year round. So that when I'm um I like to do like labor, especially like pre pregate physical labor, building an art project, helping build camp, whatever. Do a lot of physical labor. Feel like I've contributed so that I can let go of that because if I have a shift later in the week. It's just it's on my mind and I cannot let go of it until that shift is done. I can't fully let loose until that shift is done. So, I've been talking to friends and stuff about like, you know, doing like gate or some other volunteer shifts that are like later in the week and I'm like, I don't know if I can do it because I need to frontend my responsibility and get that out of the way or I won't be able to just like let loose and enjoy myself.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So that that first burn, I can tell you I have profound memories of joy, but I can't say that I actually that's fun,

right?

Your idea of fun and other people's idea of fun is like different.

Sure. I mean, well, I mean, every year could be that argument, right? Like none of this like what's wrong with you people?

Yeah. But we look at like that doesn't look fun. Like what do you mean?

Yeah. Oh, every burn I come back and I tell people about what it was like and they're like, "You do this for fun."

So, what was the project? Was this a camp that you were So, you were like volunteered to be the the number two like this camp or like or something?

This was this was the year of Sue um under the man where each of the different regionals brought different contributions to um like demand like the soup was like a like a like a Middle Eastern bazaar type of environment and

was kind of beri

it wasn't that year

I don't well maybe it was

maybe

no no it was after gold for sure um but like there was like a next to us was um Japan burn had brought a dojo which was like oh

next level amazingness um and it was like basically like a bunch of little shops that you could like go into region brought like a little shop, right?

Oh, wow.

Cool.

Yeah. And I had very little to do with um the creation of ours. Uh I contributed like the theatrics to it. Um but like the idea for ours was that it was a uh travel agency and we would send people to like San Diego based camps and send them to events and stuff.

Oh, that's really cool.

Like what I contributed to that idea then I I took over like the leader like coordinating um volunteers and stuff on Playa which was was insane. Um yeah, you're right. Like like having zero context dealing with all that. Uh but then like before we actually got on PIA when I when I did um when I was christened co-lead, what I contributed was uh um the like my drama nerd stuff from high school

and we added in there this layer of um improv where like you as a volunteer like volunteers who are manning the booth like you could either sit there and just do it straight and just send people to camps or if you wanted to you could take these prompts like take random prompts and uh play out these improv games with people and um people had a lot of fun with those and I created like this kind of like interactive it was like a shared cinematic universe of improv where like characters from one improv prompts from like the previous day which show up in like the next day's improv prompt and

Oh, wow.

It was a lot of fun. Yeah, they had um my friend Kristen and uh I think Kyler was from uh Bubba, I think. They were saying like they got the prompt they got was that it's like it's not a travel agency. You're in the trench. It was in World War II. So, everybody's like like fake shooting guns and like other burners are jumping in there and like war like playing playing soldiers. It was really funny.

Okay. So, it wasn't just riffing off in the whole like travel agency theme. It was like

some of them.

Yeah.

Yeah. Some of like I remember like one of the prompts was uh this isn't actually a travel agency. It's an FBI undercover office and they're doing an mafia thing across the street. So, and then you have to just and then the people the volunteers in the booth would just like play out the characters to see if

the visitors would understand what is happening in the story. So, like one of them was like you know he's like an FBI And he's like, he's not actually a travel agent. He's just trying to get you to get out of there.

He's like, "Sorry, I I can't really answer your questions."

They're like trying to fake answer.

Don't turn around. Don't turn around.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stuff like that.

And the next day you come back and it's like, "No, no, this is actually the mafia front."

Yeah. Yeah.

Over there. They're watching us.

There was another prompt that flipped it and it turned out that the travel agency was actually the Mafia Front and the FBI's watching it.

What do you want to go there for? Yeah, forget about it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. People had a good time.

Wow. That's awesome. Well, it's funny because

I don't know. It just reminds me of two different things. Um Well, I think you you must have Have you heard of Core? That was like that was probably preceded.

Yeah, it was the year. Yeah, it was the year after.

Well, because I think Core was like 11 and 12. Oh, no. It was 12 and 13 or something.

But yeah, so this is the year after that, right? So, because core is actually something that I started Um, it all started off with this kind of drunken email where I was like, "What if we the regionals got together and made like we surrounded the man with like effiges and and we fired like fireworks from our effiges into the man and then that, you know,

we have you to thank for that."

Then they were like, "Yeah, no, you're going to kill everybody." Like, "No, no, how about we pair it back and you do it in a different night." And it was all like a, you know, but then Yeah. So then I think the first year there was like what, 20 some odd effiges and then then that was like the last year that I went or something. And then

then I heard like the next year was just like what got even crazier and bigger and people like I think it's like tens of thousands of dollars of budgets for like for each individual FG.

I only heard about it later and I was like

what what what did they do? So it makes sense that they're just kind of like because I remember Bernie hearing them they were just like oh this is too much. We can't do this anymore. You know that's a great idea to have like little like like a pavilion kind of thing around the each region.

No it was it was 100% uh an offshoot of of your idea then. Yeah, because um and I know the reason also our project was so um small

was that the core year like broke San Diego's community. We had like

multiple divorces like like it was it was it's like famously

it famously wrecked havoc and it was like right after that is when I came into the community and so I'm hearing all these stories about how the corer like absolutely destroyed a lot of like San Diego relationships.

What was it like when they were just you know it's like oh my god it was horrible. Let me tell you about those trenches warfare and it was like bullets flying they were but we had a great time. It was awesome.

I mean you know I'm not sure if anybody said yeah it was a great Yeah. They you know here's what I do. I remember Kurt saying it was still glorious to watch that fish burn. Um because I've done a couple episodes on this back If you go back to the earlier earlier the earliest episodes of the show, there is a lot of conversations about how the core not this um there's a lot of uh conversations about how the core the core project like just wrecked havoc on San Diego and so everybody was beaten up and bruised and nobody wanted to do anything. And then when this opportunity came up about doing this the San Diego pavilion project or being part of the pavilion, I remember the sense was like it's too cool of an opportunity to pass up. let's just do something as small as possible just to have a presence

and and that's why that's how the travel agency thing came about.

I mean I imagine that people were like kind of reluctant to you know was like hey I got an idea for a new project and like

yeah yes that's exactly what was happening and then so like Japan burn I think was not a part of core or they're just very Japanese and their like their lives didn't get destroyed.

Um they brought this like spectacular thing that was like sitting next to us. the dojo. I was just blown away by the attention to detail and

Oh,

we're like, "Yeah, we're ours is like a paperier-mâché project compared to what you guys brought."

So then you were thrown into like trying to coordinate volunteers for this thing. Like people like, "Yeah, I don't want to do anything." You like, "No, no, no."

Yeah. No, everyone was super supportive. Yeah. They they especially especially hearing it's my first year.

Um they're like, "Wow, you're crazy enough to do this. Like we're going to make this as easy on you as possible.

Oh, well, there you go.

Uh,

yeah. Was that the only year they did that or or was that pretty much after that

pavilion?

Yeah,

I believe. So, if there were following years, I didn't I wasn't involved with it. I got mixed up with other art projects.

Oh, okay. Well, because another thing that for years ago, I was 2003 or four or something, I started this thing called uh the regional information center that became the regional network center and eventually became everywhere village. It was basically was kind of like a regional network kind of clubhouse sort of place you know where it's like

I mean it was twofold sort of uh thing where it's a place where um burners can kind of come and get information about like you know the regionals like you know well they're at Burning Man and just like hey you know you can there might be something like you know year round like where you live and people like what really you know we had all these each regional had a poster up you know and uh and then also another the other part of it was like for the regional contacts actually a place to kind of sit down and connect. And so I I got them to volunteer like each like I'd pair up like two random ones like each everyone have like a two-hour shift,

you know? It almost kind of sounds something like that, you know, where it's just like, "Oh, here's a place where people can kind of come and like get information and like meet each other." It's like, "Wow."

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Um I think ours was was

focused pretty much entirely on San Diego because there's like a bunch of San Diego camps on PA. Uh but it definitely sounds like all of this was like streams going in the same river, right?

All right,

hold on just a second. I have to let my cat door.

Will I edit that out or leave it in? We'll see.

I would leave it in.

Yeah, of course. It's rather than the magic of broadcasting. So, yeah. Yeah. So that was your first year 2014. And so you

so did you just like launch into like the show and doing interviews like after that or I mean did you record anything on the play or you just kind of got some ideas when you came back like I know

Yeah. No, I knew I didn't want to record anything on play. I didn't want to deal with equipment. Um also there's BMIs and there's like other folks like doing you know onplay projects and I was like I'm going to keep mine. I had like very clear limitations on it and that comes from like years of artist work like I what I want to do is and I've learned that like putting very strong limitations on it is what makes the project uh unique enough for me to wrap my brain around it. So for example um I don't do any remote interviews. Uh I've only done one and that was with like Athena and her crew during lockdown. But I basically like took co off for the most part. Um, I knew that my uh I knew that I'd want to do all these in person. Um, just as a as a highly sensitive person, like I don't I'm trying to like stay off of like screens and there's body language and stuff that I can pick up in person that I can't do uh via Zoom.

Yeah.

Um, and then I also had a uh I'm calling this a traumatic experience for fun, but it wasn't like traumatizing or anything, but but uh back in the hip-hop show We did uh a few remote interviews and one of them was with uh gosh I'm blanking on his name right now. He's a famous uh National Geographic explorer at large. He wrote he wrote that zombie book

like the voodoo zombies. Gosh,

David,

I'm blinking.

No, no, not him, bro. But uh I forget his name at this exact second, but like he's he was a As you might imagine, this was one of the most interesting and intelligent people that you'll ever meet in your life.

Uhhuh.

And we're doing this interview with him, me and my co-host, and it's like two and a half hours, and it's basically him telling these stories that are just making us like like brains exploding, listening to them, right? And every once in a while, we're like chiming in to go, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh." Just to remind

the audience that there are hosts here.

Yeah.

But um but I just remember feeling so overwhelmed with that experience and feeling like it was such a lost opportunity to not sit in front of this person and to like really like connect with him. Uh so and it was just very like anxietyinducing for me. Um just the physical process dealing with the tech and like being in the screen and trying to figure out when to talk.

So I just decided You know what? That's one of the limitations I'll put on burner podcast is I'll say it has to be in person.

Um and then that also helps me to make decisions because uh um I was writing this recently. Um saying the word in saying the phrase interesting burner is redundant. Like overwhelmingly burners are going to be the most fascinating people and I will never get tired of talking to you. So, one of the ways that I can shortlist who I will record with is it's got to be in person. So, we got to be like physically in the same space.

Mhm.

And if we're not in the same space, we'll say it's not meant to be until it is, you know, and then we'll hang out in person. And then then that um energetic exchange that I feel with with my with my guest, it just it feels like It feels more uh elevating and energizing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um and you know, of course, and so again, then I like saw like there's like other shows that you know, that are doing like the Zoom format

that just like gave me even more

uh it liberated me even more to go, all right, well, these are

these are the things that make burner podcast burner podcast,

you know, like it's these limitations, these structures.

Um

and then, you know, I'm also kind of lazy. I don't want to have to put out that many episodes anymore. So,

also I think it's like like we saying is totally true like it it comes out in the conversation, you know? I mean

like cuz for me I mean because I'm in Hawaii and like basically everything has to be on

True. Yeah. Yeah.

But there's been a couple of times like um I had to do interviews like on the phone and it was just recently interviewed somebody who was just like oh no no no I I I don't use Zoom. I was like why? And they like you know they track your information and stuff and I was like Everybody tracks your information on the phone. But like even just the difference between like seeing somebody because also like a lot of times people don't like I interviewed like don't have headphones and stuff and so like

if I make any sound it kind of cuts people off.

So I'm just I'm always tell people it's like yeah I try not to say anything but it's like you know you can see be on the screen like

like with my like interactions.

No, it's it's a it's a different skill set for sure. Uh and again like for me

just on the phone, you know, it's just like it's just so weird. I'm just kind of like face, you know?

And then you talk to like, you know, old school journalists who prefer that and that's that because that's the format that they've put in their reps in, right? Like that's where they've done their like martial arts like kata, right? I know.

Uh and then that was part of my decision-m process on that as well is I'm like I can be like my my I think my thing is um presence with a person in person and as a photographer, it's what I focus on. As an interviewer, it's what I focus on. Um, in general, if I can avoid digital, I mean, communications, I will. And it's not because they don't serve their purpose. It's because I've put in my reps in those other fields. So, I'm just going to keep,

you know, you can do anything, but you can't do everything.

Yeah.

And there's a certain amount of time in the world. So, I'd rather keep putting in the practice to mastery in a very specific field of Um, you know, so so the Zoom thing, so like once the Zoom things got super popular, I I considered I fully considered like opening up in that way. I did have a producer for a period of time who was really pushing it

because he was like well connected with very, you know, major names, major Burning Man names around the world.

Um, and he was trying to set up these interviews and I'm like, I'm not against it, but I'm just like not really excited about it either. Um,

how about you fly me to Bali instead? Like

I mean He came up to San Francisco to record uh Auto on Danger. Um we did Burn Wall Street.

Oh yeah. Yeah. He was my I think third.

Yeah.

At that time I literally flew up to record because he um he was battling cancer and

still is. Yeah.

Yeah. There was there was some Well, I mean he's still he's winning apparently because

Yeah. He's he's still there.

Yeah. Yeah. No. Back And literally like there was some conversation about like we don't know how much longer he's going to be around and he's kind of a historical figure and we should go get this recording. So I flew up to do it in person. Um there's no that that interview would not have worked uh when I for me.

I felt like there was an energy to capture there. And we named the episode Ottabbon Jinger refuses to die.

And then yeah and then this few months ago I sent him a happy birthday text. So he still uses Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was when I I think only my third interview and I was definitely getting my sea legs about me and I remember like there were there were

technical issues. It's like he was just like I was like yeah do it on Zoom. Like what's Zoom? You know I'm like

you could you have a phone, right? It's like it's like an app on your phone and like and I was before I was just learning how to even use Zoom and I was like sending out like meeting codes and passcodes and stuff. Now I everything's just kind of scheduled, you know. Yeah. But

how'd that go? By the way, I feel like interviewing Otto uh would be like tri by fire.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for being one of my first interviews, too.

A powerful personality.

Yeah. I mean, because I kind of know had knew him like a little bit before that, you know, but that was one of my shorter interviews.

You met him in person?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple times. Yeah. Like years ago. I'm sure. I don't even like remember.

Maybe the Zoom Maybe the Zoom would uh alleviate that intimidating sense of this giant Viking towering over you.

Wait, it's funny because like when people hear my show, like some people just like shadow shadow of the man. Oo, that that sounds dark. You know, I guess they're thinking it's like, oh yeah, people like autoon danger and like

they think like shadow work. Yeah.

Yeah. Or they're like, oh, there's people just bitching about Burning Man, you know? It's just like, no, no, no. It's it's more about like an opportunity for people to kind of like, hey, brag about yourself, you know? It's

just like giving a voice to like, you know, the the the unheard, you know, whatever. And so then

I was a little nervous about Otto because I thought like, oh, he'd like badmouthing people, but like

he actually had like nice things to say about people. And he was like, oh yeah, Marian and I didn't really kind of get along, but you know, I counter as a friend now. And I was just like,

yeah,

what what then he, you know, he would go on and on about like the the US government and like his issues and stuff, but

yeah.

Yeah, that was I think one of my shorter interviews I think after 45 minutes I was just kind of like okay so there you go you know.

Yeah. Yeah. He he is a powerful presence for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. And then he was just recently this year he was on uh accuracy third. It was like it was autoon danger and metric. And

it's funny because it's like I think I even told it to the accuracy third guys. Um I cuz I I when I was telling Stuart Mangram I was like okay does it There's a couple of different Bernie man podcasts, but I was like I think that we're more complimentary than competitive, you know? It's like we each kind of have like a

different like like niche and like in people are going after interest like in and stuff and I was like accuracy third is you remember that show drunken history?

Yeah.

I was like I was like that's accuracy third. They're the drunken history of Bernie.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

One of my favorite shows. It's like no no no shade against them, you know, but they're always just like the show like okay what do you got to drink and then look just sort of devolving from there and it's just all this crazy like drunk stories like

yeah

no I agree I think all of our I think all the media that we have is very complimentary to each other and like I said every time I've seen a new show come out I felt more liberated to lean into what I do

yeah I think was a new one or something I heard it was or something I saw on Facebook it was

somebody I think like wanting to start up one but I think it was from like a new burners perspective. I'm not sure how that would work. You know,

I've seen a few different people attempt starts. Um, I mean, it's podcasts, you know, like you know, like you're I'm I'm like I have personally mentored many people who have started their own podcasts, some burners, some not.

Um, and I've always like really leaned into the advice of like one of the things I tell people is lean into the lazy.

Like really,

there you go. Don't think about how awesome your show is going to be based on the best way you're feeling. Think about your laziest day where you've got to turn in this damn thing. Start there. You can always add things, right? So,

um, so when I see a podcast come out swinging with like, you know, really high production value and this and that right out of the gate, I'm not entirely optimistic they're going to be able to keep that going, you know, unless they're making like a lot of money off of it and getting rich and famous or whatever, which like

Yeah. Right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah.

Good luck with that.

Yeah,

that's been that's been my input. Um but uh but yeah, I've definitely seen a few start where I'm like, "Oh, like they're immediately getting all kinds of attention and then they do like three episodes and they're gone."

Huh.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. For me, I guess that's just because the struggle is more like getting the like the attention because every person I talk to just like, "Wow, I really like your show." And was like, "Yeah, tell a friend." They're like, "Hey, goodbye."

But

yeah, but like kind of what you're talking about Like for me that that's sort of how it was. It was I set it up. I have a template, you know, and then I have like my intro, my little intro song, my outro, and then I just I just basically for I'm like

I'm just having a conversation with a either an old friend or a new friend and

and they just kind of just

copy paste put it in.

Yeah.

Boom. Done. You know, so then at first I I I was like, "Oh, once a month."

Yeah.

And then I was like, "Okay, twice a month." Like the 1st and the 15th. And then now actually starting in Janu uary. I I have enough of these now where it's like I'm going there like once a week.

Nice. Yeah.

But I spent like months and months and months just being like is this sustainable? Like can I can I right

will I drive my wife crazy being like I got to do another interview and he was like I want to go to the beach. It's like I got to do an interview. You're like

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No totally.

Yeah. That's how I did mine too. Um I started out I think until I hit episode 100. I was doing first and third Wednesday of the month

like religiously. new episode. And then and part of part of that process was that there is a lot of spiritual growth that comes from having a structure that you're sticking to come hell or high water. And I put out some episodes that I'm not wild about in that era, right? Um and then after I hit 100, I recorded that in South Africa. I eased off the gas and then COVID happened. That definitely got a lot of us to ease off the gas. Mhm.

And now they're a lot more spread out than I would like. What I would really like to do is get one out a month.

Mhm.

Um, but I'm also uh I'm a, you know, a freelance photographer, professional artist. Like I'm like literally trying to like get to like next month's rent. So I'm focused on writing these days and like things that are commodified. And what I did always know from the beginning was that we would never commodify the podcast. That's imperative that it remains a gift.

So been like fine-tuning ways that I can like ease off the process. But all in all, putting out an episode of Burner Podcast takes up about a week of like a lot of like a week of my work time

really

just like yeah coordinating, organizing, setting up like creating the the designs, um doing the production stuff, um then mixing and mastering them afterwards. Um then promo like all these like there's all these like steps and When I say a week, I don't mean it's like 40 hour week. Um, I'm looking at like my flow state hours

and I have about two to four hours per day that I'm at my optimum flow state creative mode.

And so these days I'm really focused on writing and working on my photography book so that I can actually sell things and make money.

Yeah.

But um, but the podcast is like I'm finding ways to like ease how do I make it a little bit easier? How do I,

you know, so I remove like the deadlines for example. I used to have deadlines

and I've removed those. Um so now it's like when it gets around to it, it comes around and I I'm more concerned about making sure it's an episode that I'm really happy with putting out

and I feel proud of.

Yeah.

Um I don't I don't want to have that feeling again where I recorded something and I was like h whatever good enough. Um I don't want to do I it didn't feel good and I don't want to do that anymore. So I'd rather just put them out less frequently for a limited amount of time. And then next year I think we're going to ramp back up.

Yeah. Well, it's also it's it's a a a passion of love, right? You know, it's like you don't want to be like get to like shove like like shoveling coal.

Exactly. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Know, I've had um I had a I won't say who it is, but like I had a really s***** experience with a very well-known artist um who I felt like did not respect my time and the amount of the amount of like that I was like supporting him to set this episode up. Um, and he tries to go like, "You know what? I can give you 20 minutes." I'm like, "Then we just won't do it."

Like, what do you

Yeah,

you're not doing me a favor. It's not like I'm turning this into my editor. Like,

yeah,

I'd rather just showcase. We'll we'll showcase somebody else who's like contributing to the community. It sounds like you're getting enough press.

So,

Oh, yeah. No, I've definitely had a handful of people who are just Like I was like chasing them and chasing them and chasing and then they just we kind of slip away and then after a while it's like you know what there's a whole list of people like if you don't want to come fine maybe later come back you know but

if it's not a hell yes it's a no.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I want it to be a hell yes.

Yeah. Exactly. It's almost like like going on a date, you know. It's like

I guess you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You're gonna buy me

get the hint.

Yeah. They'll totally Totally. And it's it's I mean we have such a such an amazing community. It's global. We have all these spectacular people doing spectacular things. There's no shortage. There's no shortage of guests.

Have you gone around to like other regional events like other than San Diego? Well, now you're in Las Vegas or

Yeah. Um well, at this exact minute I'm actually in San Francisco. Uh but um I still haven't made it to the damn Vegas regional because I've had um uh my father died. uh in March and that was uh as you might imagine there's some complications with scheduling and getting places.

Yeah.

So dealing with that. So the Vegas regional I've been trying to go the last two years and I haven't been able to make it. Synergy um is what it's called.

Where's Synergy? Is that Southeast? I know I think it's Transformus.

Where's Synergy again?

Synergy is the Vegas one.

Oh, Vegas. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's SNRG. Oh, okay. I remember years ago it was like a Dark Skies or something, but

yeah, I think I've ever been actually. Yeah. But um yeah, the biggest one um I've been to Sarro Man, the Arizona regional burn, which is lovely.

Uh the San Diego burn of course multiple times.

Um and Africa burn. Those are the only three I've been to.

Wow. I'd love to go to Africa.

What I am uh orchestrating, part of the reason that there's not as many episodes coming out this year is because I'm focusing on finishing some projects that I can monetize as an artist. And what I really want to do is to travel travel more of the world uh and do what I did at Africa Burn, which is use the burn as the entryway into that region.

If you're planning on doing any world travel, it's the best way to do it. Go do the burn first. And so then you just like walk around with this new city, this new country already with an embedded network. Yeah.

Of your people. It's amazing.

That's a great idea.

Yeah.

Wow. See, you start off by like uh being a co-lead on a travel agency and now here you are again.

Annoyingly responsible.

So, have you been back to to Black Rockck like every year since then? Like, so was 2014. I mean, I than the COVID years and

Yeah.

You did like the hot year, then the rainy year, and then

Yep. No, I have accepted that it's simply what I do that part of the year. And

who like where do you usually camp or like are do you take on responsibility on the pla or like what's your kind of gig?

I'm poly camperis and uh every year I will I've been I served as a sound lead for the journey project that was like 2017 I think.

Um but no I'm always involved in some sort of build or something. Mhm.

Um, honestly, this past couple of years has been where I've been like the least responsible for anything because I feel like I've done I feel pretty good about what I've contributed energy-wise. And, you know, whenever there is a need, especially for grunt work, like I love doing just physical labor on Playa.

Yeah.

Um, like I shut down the brain. I don't want to coordinate anything. I don't want to be in charge of it. Just yell. at me. I am 6'5. I'm 230 lbs. I will carry things around. I'm Middle Eastern. I do well in the sun. So, use use this ability. Um, so, you know, typically if I can if I can frontload, like I was saying, like a lot of like the labor, like build something, help build an art project, help build a camp, something like that, I'll do that.

So, I think you did it backwards like your first year you're co-lead and now like all these years later like I'm just one of the workers. They leave me alone.

No, that's that's when I'm I tell I find whoever is in charge.

And I tell them like, "Please shout orders at me and skip the pleases and thank yous."

Mhm.

I am your b****. Like, let's do this. Like, trust me.

They look at you like they blake twice. They're like,

"I'm here to work." They're like,

"Really?" Like,

it's also

I think this is like a like I don't know if this is like a tall person thing, but like I've been my whole life I've had this experience where like I'm on I don't know a lot of times like leads in projects or whatever will have a harder time giving me orders

and I have to like go tell them to do that. Like I'll watch them be much more leader, much more pushy, I don't know, much more whatever, uh with with like everybody else on the crew. And I'm like, I need need to like tell me s***. I need you to like take I don't know if it's a I think like part of it just might be like a tall thing like all people are assumed to be leaders incorrectly.

Yeah.

I've just always had this experience since childhood.

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's just like out of the package just like you be like that one sticking out like the tall grass gets the blade.

Yeah.

Drew it. Bring it. Bring the blade.

Yeah. So Uh I guess so let's get this to our second question. Uh so what's your your background? So what's your your life like before Burning Man? Like where did you uh grow up? What what led

I Yeah, I grew up in San Diego. I was born in San Diego, moved back to Iran uh with my family when I was like I don't know four. And we were there for about three or four years and then my mom divorced my dad, brought me back here.

Oh wow.

Grew up in San Diego.

Yeah. And um yeah, I was like, you know, f****** weird artist kid. My mom was obsessed with the fear that I might be gay. Um

was trying to like scare that out of me. She just couldn't wrap her brain around, I don't know, possibly gender queer artist kid. Uh like it was all just

it just didn't

didn't connect. They couldn't figure me out. Uh, but yeah. Um, then I I went to San Diego State, majored in art. That's when I got into like the underground hip-hop scene and started doing like zero budget

directing zero budget raft videos

and co-hosting hip-hop show. Um, I worked in nightlife for years in event planning, various different creative fields, graphic design work. Uh, and at that's time that I found Burning Man, I was um working at the Port of San Diego. And the way that I ended up there was that prior to that, I had worked for the San Diego Film Commission for a very brief period. And then my girlfriend and I broke up and I like moved in with my brother to kind of reset my life. And he was working at the border of San Diego at that time. And he said, "There's this internship open. You can start there." And When I started the internship there, I had my first experience of what it's like to make a lot less money but be happier and go, "Oh, okay. I guess money doesn't value happiness."

Um, oh, and then early on, this is the part that I left out in like when I was like 18 till around 21, I worked for Geico. I was an insurance agent.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But a lot of it was just artists trying to pay for life. So, you make art.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I tell like like some like young relatives and like I'm going to be an artist. I'm like yeah but you have to have some sort of skill to pay the bills. You know

you know even the whole idea of like doing the podcast and the show you like my sister was just like are you monetizing it? Like are you making money on ads? Like are are you like are you doing sponsorships and this and that? And I'm just like

no like you what you said it's like my show it's like it's a gift to the community. like there's there's no ads, there's no subscription, there's no nothing. And I was just like, it's whatever. It's my gift back. And like my sister's just like, "Well, why are you doing,

you know, like it's like she she's never been to Brady and she doesn't understand."

Yeah, I know. I know. I I have those conversations regularly with my family.

Yeah. So, why are you doing this?

You're gay.

Yeah.

Come on, Mom. Can I do my part in peace?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, kind of naturally bring us to our last question. The impact and influence of Burning Man on your your life.

H I think I think the the like the fastest way to describe that is the the sentence that comes into my mind is um yeah, I'm f****** allowed to be here like at Burning Man. I feel like it regularly and now I haven't gone 10 years like you know out the window but especially early on I always had the sense of like am I allowed to be here? Are we allowed to be here right now? But like we're like backstage somewhere. Are we allowed to be here like behind this thing? Are we allowed to go up there? Like is this okay? And you know I think uh coming from a this is you know the the ripple effects of colonization and patriarchy throughout the world. hierarchy of um just hierarchy in general. You know, I I what I've learned the most through Burning Man, the most profound impact it's had on me is learning to be allowed to take up space and learning that from having I mean lots of really awesome white people as friends who are like well-meaning and and then also like in white culture there's a stronger sense of like yeah, you can do that you can just go do that. Like literally nobody stopping you. You just go do that. And in coming from the string culture, like that's not inherent. It's not baked into you can just go do that. Um there's a higher sense of well who's given you permission to do that or do you have the certification? Do you have your title? Are you a doctor? Are you an engineer? Do you know there's this this thing baked into it?

Like just like what makes you think that you can just go and do that like

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And the funny thing is that there's so many, you know, very successful, wealthy Iranian entrepreneurs because there's like a lot of Iranians that immigrated to the United States came from more privileged families. So, they were taught that. Um, my family was not, my dad was uh clever enough with finances to be able to get us here, get us out of the revolution and and bring us to the United States. Uh, but that's been a lot of like this uh friction between like my mother, my father, and I like and that's always this sense of I'm doing all these things that they're like, "Well, how can you just do that?" You know, like as a photographer, for example, it took me years to start posting publicly in my social media channels

that I'm available for hire. And part of the reason that I was like I couldn't do it because like it like my mom would be so embarrassed. She's like, "If you're not working for somebody who can just do that, you know, so this whole like this this having the permission to live life on my own terms. That is what I've learned from Burning Man. I am allowed to be here. I'm allowed to do this. Nobody's f****** stopping me.

Well, how did it feel like when you went to, you know, it was Utopia and they went to hit hit the the Playa where people just like, oh yeah, radical self-exression. It's just like you're free. It's just like go out there and do whatever you want. I mean, You're just like, "Really? Like, I could do this?" Like, "Yeah, I could do that." Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of a lot of what happens at Burning Man is people are given the freedom to peel back the layers of identity and choose the identity that we want.

And you see different folks have like different journeys with this. Like some go through crossdressing, some go through developing like a big player personality. Some go through and for me it's been a little bit reversed. It's almost like on Playa I am the most me and outside of Burning Man I am creating the identity that I'm enjoying creating more intentionally. So like at Burning Man I I feel

like it's one of the reasons, you know, I've been going for a decade and I don't I I just just got to like apply a name Right. And it kind of Yeah. And it's like a like, you know, people kept asking about that and I'm like I kind of already got known as a rash, you know.

Yeah. Honestly, that's like not that necessary. And people like, I need to apply your name. Like no, you know.

No, I never felt it. I never felt that either. It's just only in this past year I really I'd always been interested in having a moniker um an alternate identity as an artist like like a Ziggy Sardust, you know? So, um I just, you know, this past year started to kind of explore it and play with it and then had an interesting experience where I met a coach on Playa at Sunrise who uh her name was Luna and she literally was like her specialty was like re like identity recreation and reinventions.

What kind of coach? I talking it's not like high school volleyball, right? Like

no like like a life like life coaching uh personal development and her like her specialty was that was that identity specifically like developing a new identity as an emerging identity helping you like create ceremonies around it.

I like that.

Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool.

Yeah.

So, my the next chapter of my work as an artist, like as a photographer and writer, I'm starting to release things under the name Mirage. So, um and this is the first time I'm talking about this publicly, but like uh it's already been like written around in a few places and

um It's, you know, if you refer, and there is no like, it's not like a dead name thing. If you refer to me as Arash, what I am hearing is I love you for you where you've always been. And if you refer to me as Mirage, I hear that as I am voting for the direction that you're going in.

Oh, I like that.

So either either either direction works and I have these different sandboxes, you know, that I can play in.

Yeah. Yeah. I just I don't know when you were talking about like, you know, going to apply it having the freedom to do something. It's just imagine me like your life is like this big bloated like stack of papers you know it's like you know each sheet is like a different thing and then and the rest of the world it's like there's like a big weight or iron or something like on top of it and you go to the ply it's just like oh no take that iron off

take that weight off and it's like

yeah

you can shuffle these around you can get rid of things and then like I think for a lot of people they like they look through the pile and they're just like

well what is this Yeah.

It's like you you you mean I can be the different gender or I can be an artist or I can, you know, find love of making donuts or whatever.

And what you're describing is what's, you know, what's been happening the past 10 years basically, right?

Yeah.

And

um and I'm still shuffling through the papers. I'm still looking at things and going like, "Huh, how funny is it that this thing was

Well, I mean, holding me down."

Yeah. But are you ever done, you know? You know, it's just like just when you think you get to the last piece of paper, you're like, "Oh, wait. Now there's more."

You did.

Well, I don't know. It's like you might find other things, you know, it's like, "Oh, I didn't, you know, you're plumbing new depths in your art or

or like also what we were talking about before like you get connected with people." And that's also for me like through doing this project, you know, it

it's like I said, I'm talking to old friends, meeting like new friends, and just being like that's the magic of Burning Man is just like connections and family

and like I think one of the mistakes people make is like the 10 principles. They look at it as kind of like like a dogma or like rules for life. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

It's more of this like like a recipe. It's a formula for turning strangers like into like really good friends if not like family.

Yeah.

And so then where these connections lead you? It's like

Yeah. Yeah. I think I love that framing that it's about. It's more about the connections. I always saw it as the 10 principles, the framework for experiencing a burn. They are meant to be in that specific closed container. Um they don't operate in the rest of reality. And that's the point that that is the value is you go to Burning Man to basically have this week-long psychedelic experience. And I'm not talking about the substance. I mean like that it's a ceremony. It's a ritual. That week that you are on pia is its own psychedelic experience. It has a beginning, middle, and end. Following these 10 principles is what keeps you in that container and then you come out of it having learned how to stretch yourself like yoga. So now you're walking around, you know, daytoday feeling better in your body because you did the yoga practice earlier in the day. But the point is you're not doing yoga all day.

You're doing it in that container. That's the point of the container.

Yeah. Yeah. Well put.

All right. Well, um I think we're reaching about the end almost almost hour and 15 or so. But, uh, any last words or anything you want to plug or Yeah. Yeah. You have like you have like a website or anything?

Uh, it's Yeah, it's arashar.com is my website. Uh, burnerodcast.com of course. Pardon me.

Well, the first one it's just arash.com or

Yeah, it's a r and my last name. Af.com. Um, and of course it's that's linked at burnerpodcast.com. Um, and what do I have to plug this? Exa Man, there's like some big announcements potentially coming this in the next couple of months. I'm just not I'm not allowed to make it.

Come out in like end of April.

Yeah.

So, I might

It's not Yeah, but one of them is not mine directly to make. I wish I could make it, but I can't make it yet.

Yeah. Um, but I think my birthday is the end of January, so by the time that this comes up, um, that that will have passed. So, I can definitely say this. I am targeting starting a Kickstarter on my January to pre-order my photography book.

Oh,

and it's um it's the book is called The Underground is the Real America. And it is a collection of mostly portraits, photos, uh that I've taken over the past decade. through the underground scene, um, underground dance music, underground hiphop, um, protest photos, and I'm like organizing and collecting those themes as we speak. And these are photos that have been sitting on my drives forever. And I really want to like create this project and close the chapter on these images.

And and it's called ideally I'm calling it the underground is a real America volume one.

And I'm calling it volume one because what I really want to do is make a volume two and like pre-plan that and actually go shoot new stuff.

Uh, but this stuff is it's to me it's um what the underground represents is that it's the it's the America that I see and I would like to see that's more focused on liberty rather than freedom. Freedom is like turned into this code word for the conservatives. It's like freedom for us like freedom as a punishment almost.

Um

it's not like real freedom because you're obviously very concerned about what other people are doing with their genitals.

Freedom for me but not for thee kind of thing.

So um and to me the most ideal, the most beautiful America is one of uh organic effortless diversity and the underground represents that very well. And so these images like the themes of these images are based around that. This is photos mostly mostly of Southern California but not not primarily um let's exploring those themes. So that book I'm probably my my birthday by January 27th starting a Kickstarter for it so I can capitalize on my birthday.

Uh and

so if people go toshard.com it's like they could find information about it.

Okay.

Yeah. And like burnpodcast.com has a meet the host and my website is linked on there so it can jump everywhere.

So ideally I would like to be able to sell a lot of copies of this book and use the money to travel the world and go other burns.

Yeah. Yeah. Make more books.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Make a volume two.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you so much, Raj. This has been a wonderful interview.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Andy. I really appreciate you doing this for the community and for us, and I I feel we've been better as a podcaster knowing that you're out there doing this.

Oh, thank you. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, rate, and review it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen. The more reviews the show has, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Also, please tell a friend and share this show with anyone that you think might like it. Word of mouth reaches quite far, especially in the Burning Man community. If you would like to contact us, please send an email to shadowofthemanpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow Shadow of the Man on social media at Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky X and YouTube. The links for all of these are available at shadowoftheman.com. Feel free to use any of these social media accounts to provide any feedback you might have. Your thoughts on the show are greatly appreciated. Thank you and see you soon for a new episode of The Shadow of the Man.

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