EP 63 Ryan Doyle

Episode 63 with Ryan Doyle is out now! Meet Ryan Doyle, a prolific artist and long-time Burning Man participant. The conversation explores Doyle’s extensive history within the community, specifically his foundational role in building legendary art cars like Robot Heart and various fleet vehicles for the Department of Public Works. Beyond mere technical construction, his story delves into the evolution of the event's culture, tracing Doyle’s journey from the "punk rock circus" scenes of the late 1990s to his current work with electric vehicle conversions and large-scale industrial art in Detroit. He reflects on how the collaborative spirit of radical expression can bridge social divides, transforming a grueling desert environment into a unique venue for lifelong artistic inspiration and human connection.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party, drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy, that Detroit madman. No, it's that Andy. Today our guest is Ryan Doyle. Welcome. Hello.

So, I was introduced to you. Oh god, I'm like totally blanking on his name. Was like a friend of yours. It's like you got to interview Ryan Do Doyle. So, you so you have built a couple of the famous art cars that everybody knows about, right? Like, so did you did you build the robot heart card or just the the heart of the robot heart?

Um, well, it's a big team that does it, but yeah, I built the heart and built a lot of stuff. for Robot Heart.

Wow. And you sent me a picture of uh that's on the going to be on the episode art and you said that was the red dragon.

Um Girin, it's um the light dragon.

The light dragon. Wow. What What year did you build that?

2010.

Oh, wow. So, you've been at this a long time.

This year was my 25th Birdie Man.

Oh, wow. You get the patch. So, uh, when when was your first year? What got you to go to Burning Man?

Uh, my first year was 98. I went with some friends from Minneapolis who were in uh traveling punk rock circus and um was part of what was then called Pedal Camp.

Oh, yeah. I remember that. And and started working for DPW and continued to work for DPW till pretty much till I built the robot heart. Uh so 2008 2009.

Okay. So um when did you help build the robot heart? You said it was about 2008 or so.

Um 2009 I think was our first year.

So what was the story with Robot Heart?

I was doing the show in the Hamptons at this place called the Watermill Center and was approached by a guy named Walter Smith who is an architect and came and was riding one of the art like sculptures. There was a dance machine called um Alioop was a kind of a dinosaur with a big kind of neck.

Mhm.

And it was like, "Yeah, me and my friends are got a double-decker bus from England and you know, we want to put some LEDs on a big heart, get a big sound system and just play out in Deep Play and show people that they can love each other. I was like, "Uh, okay. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe." And then I went home later that night and thought about it. I was like, "I don't know why you think you're better than that or why wouldn't you help them?" And sent the guy an email like, "Hey, let's meet up do some drawings." And then I met um that uh George who started Robot Heart with Walter and myself and handful of other people that are still around

Michael Calibies. Um,

so went over to George Miller's place and started just talking about it and then I was like, "Yeah, okay. I can build it, but you probably have to have my friends, you know, reassemble it. We can ship it out in a shipping container from New York, but I'm going to be working on this other project with a bunch of artist friends and probably not coming to Bernie man this year. Like, yeah, cool, whatever. Yeah, just here. And then they came to pick it up and got it in the shipping container and took me out to dinner and multiple ages and we're like, "Bro, come on. We got to have you come to Bernie man with us." Like, "Come on. You gotta come.

Come on. Whatever you want. Just Yeah. Just what? Come on. You got to do it." I was like, "Okay." So, went out and assembled it in Alamita.

Okay.

Like a few I don't know few days beforehand. I made it to, you know, come apart and bolt back together and we got it on the bus.

It's roadw worthy, right? I mean, you can like drive it there, right? Or or do you have to put

a double decker bus?

Yeah.

Yeah. But there's like maximum height restrictions and things like that. So, yeah, it has to come apart and then it's the double-decker bus itself is pretty much made to maximize those. So, Well, how did you get it from Alamita to the Playa? Then

we put it all together and then took it all apart and drove it. So, I drove it out. See, the there's a mechanic, Mike. English Mike. I don't know if I ever knew his last name other than English Mike, but uh he drove it from Alama to Reno and then he got really tired. tired. So, I drove it from Reno onto the Playa and we showed up and I had another art car that was out there waiting for me that my friends had kind of brought out from the ranch and just got there and put it all together. I think the first time we probably didn't have it out under the ply till like Wednesday of the event from it taking longer than expected or

so if you didn't go like would they have known how to put it together?

Yeah, they're very capable humans over there.

Okay.

I thought that was part of the reason why they're like no you have to come like we don't we can't do this well without you.

George was a pretty amazing guy. He passed away a few years ago, but he

really taught me a lot and I think we both had a lot of respect for each other and yeah, I miss him. He's a good guy.

Wow. So, what are you saying? So, uh Walter Smith and George, are those like the the two of the the people who started?

George Mueller was the real like um authoritarian dictator of Robot Heart, but uh the founder. Um

but there's a few other people that were and are still are involved.

Yeah, cuz they've been going on like is it it's been pretty consistent like every every year they've been back, right? Like since then. So did you say 2009?

Uh well, see there was one Yeah.

Yeah.

You said it first pandemic year they didn't go but second we went

and uh and they're I've heard they're like in Alama now or something like that. They have their do their own little uh was like their own events there.

Um it's there was a residency near Alama in Oakland.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

they do stuff in New York a little bit here and there. So did a big one in um Central Park.

Yeah.

Couple years ago. And there's plans to do some stuff here in Detroit, too. But

do they bring the bus out for that, too? to the one in New York. Yeah.

Yeah. So, how do they transport? Do they actually just have to put it like disassemble it, put in the container, ship it across, reassemble, or would you I guess you couldn't really drive it across the country.

There's a specialty uh semi-trail called a RGM Loboy or drop deck that it can go on. It's what you see a lot of heavy equipment on.

Mhm. Wow.

So, Yeah, it's quite the effort.

Yeah.

What's uh So, you first went in 1998 with some uh some punk friends from Minneapolis. Like what was the you started working for DPW? Like what was the the first art car you ever worked on?

Um the first one I worked on was called the Bucket. It was a Dodge 318 station wagon that Um, Lynn Moth, who was the head of what became DPW, cleanup crew.

Mhm.

He had brought it out and we chopped it up and put some flamethrowers and some pulse jets. This guy Cal Spelic from a group called Seaman.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Part of it. And another guy that was from Minneapolis, uh, Pete Manuel, and drove that around. That was the official like first DPW R car. Um, and then the bucket or I mean the uh Valare right after that. Um,

what was that?

There's a few other one. The Valar is a aari that's just been beat up with bats and just is a beat up. It's been part of a DPW. It usually has a spire on it or couch up on top.

Oh, okay.

Then there are a handful of other DPW our cars that um helped work on this one called the chromosome that um what was his name? Robert D. should remember that. Anyway, um what did chromosome look like?

He just took a bunch of chrome bumpers and made made basically like a you know double helix like a two head

Wow strand

that sounds cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember my friend uh Eli if I remember name but he had like a Saab that he made into like a art car. He worked for DPW for like many years but yeah I'm not sure if he still goes.

Oh his son. They don't really let those kind come out anymore um because of the rules that have changed at DMV. But

Oh, really?

I remember you. I saw. Yeah.

Yeah. So, what do you mean the rules change? Because I remember like what DPW could pretty much just kind of make whatever cars want and drive it around or or like uh like DMV now has like rules of like what can drive on the Playa?

Uh well, DMV I think has always had rules like that, but um you know the MadMax looking cars, anything where you can still see the vehicle. Uh DPW can have them registered as like a fleet vehicle, but I think now all fleet vehicles are owned by DPW. So people maybe can still use their personal vehicle a little bit, but less during the event. And then uh DMV has allowed some like grandfathered ones in and uh I think they do five new ones each year for DPW.

Five.

Yeah. Which kind of it's usually about how many break down I guess. So keeps it kind of even.

Wow. And I think that's pretty much just like during the event, right? So like before or after rules are a little looser. Uh, yeah. Uh, all right. So, where do you build art cars? Is is this like all like up at the like all these different ones? Well, especially like the DPW ones. I imagine it's probably like up at like the ranch or something, right? Or

Yeah. Uh, I have a shop here in Detroit that's part of the original Lincoln Motor Factory that couple friends own and been a part of for 13 years. Um so I have a couple here and then um you know Robot Heart, we build more stuff out of uh what's called Artech in Reno. It's a big our car storage lot and warehouse.

Really?

And then And the dragon I just had or gunky I just had delivered to the work ranch where I'm going to be out there till about April.

Wow.

Working on it.

So the dragon you built in Detroit and and you had it shipped out there.

Dragon I started building in Oakland.

Oh.

Um I toured it around and it did have it here in Detroit till about 2016 when I sold it and then see last year but no 2024 so little over a year ago uh the person I sold it to is taking over more of his parents' business as family business and wasn't going to be coming to Burn Man as much anymore. He lives in Hong Kong. This guy named Teddy Low.

Mhm.

And he said, "Would you like it back for a dollar?" So, I bought it back.

Really?

Yep.

Wow. Well, cuz my first question was like like if someone's going to buy our car and especially something, you know, large like art car, it's like, well, other than bring it to Burning Man, it's like like what do they do with it, you know? I mean, Um, it's we can rent it out to other festivals.

Oh, really?

Um, as a stage, um, I would take it to maker fairs, took it to other parties that we threw with throw heart. Um, I don't know. The cockroach is Yeah, it's in Miami right now. Um, so that's going down Uh, Love Burn is next. Um, there's just at Art Basle. There's I mean, it's a big dragon that people are really into. So,

yeah. Is there ever such a thing as like a like a car show, but like like a art car show?

There's the art Houston art car parade.

Oh, really?

The biggest art car parade the country.

Oh,

slash the world

really.

Um, but yeah, but then there's like, you know, other big parades like Mardigra, Carnival.

Wow. How long has the Houston art parade been going on? Like recent or is it like go back a while?

Longer than Bernie band.

Really?

Yeah.

Cuz I'm I always kind of wondered you I remember was talking to um Chef Juke about this like the whole like the history of like art cars and everything, you know, and it's like well it's like what came first like the art car or Burning Man, you know, cuz it's like I think the first couple of like art cars that came out was uh like Danger Rangers car, you know, the one with like the chimney fell on like the back was all like smooshed in. Um you know, and I was talking to like Coyote and he was talking about like you know a couple of like their early things they made like there was the one car they could only go in reverse and so they put like with the arrow on the top like going like driving backwards.

Um but but clearly like there were and then there was somebody in Berkeley I remember like I was reading like a coping society book and it's like it's like one of the earlier like art card people blanking name book here

Michael Rabbit maybe.

Yeah. But yeah so I mean clearly it's like bring that didn't invent the art car, right? So things like the Houston Art Parade, like you know, it's like preceded it.

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, there's like uh you know, George Bareris or Big Daddy Roth or people that made art cars back in the 50s and

there's I don't know.

You talk about like like for like TV and film like like the monsters thing or like the Batmobile, things like that. like

Yeah. Yeah. Is that George Baris, right? Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. Wow. So, so you're what would what kind of like what title would you give yourself? Would you be would you say, you know, it's like I'm I'm an an art like you're an art car like artist or

um Well, I make a lot of other art too, but Yeah. Yeah.

artist.

Yeah. Wow. That's Incredible. And I guess like in Detroit, you guys have a lot of space there you can use, right? Lot of like empty old buildings. Um, well, they're not as empty anymore, but

Oh, really?

The one we have is 380,000 square ft.

Wow.

Um, I guess I didn't The one of the first other art cars I worked found out there was uh Draa the Dragon which I think was the first Bernie man funded our car and

Oh yeah

99 or something.

Yeah long time ago. Yeah. So I could definitely see a kind of like a a theme like you like kind of like the Like the creatures are mythological kind of creatures. Just like a couple of dragons. What was that? You said you have a cockroach. What's that one?

Cockroach is a 2004 Honda Civic that have been totaled three times by the previous owner. And then

really

Detroit Detroit City bus hit and ran it

and totaled it a fourth time and the insurance company told them, you know, we're not going to insure this anymore. So they brought it to me and right after the bankruptcy towards the end of the bankruptcy here. 201 15 I think I made it. I was like, "Oh, what a symbol of survival on a Civic that'll never die make it into a cockroach."

So, how is it totaled four times? Like, is it the person the owner just being like, "No, no, no. I shall rebuild it." And then just kept like cuz I can't imagine insurance would give you any money for that to be like what? Um yeah I mean like I said they had totaled it four times. So yeah that means that the insurance company deemed it damaged as much or more than its total value. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

So they had already paid it out three times and on the four time they were like, "Okay, we're not going to insure this anymore."

Wow. I mean, normally when you because I I I total a couple of car like and normally it's just like they just like, "Okay, you know, put on the flatbed. This is our car now. Here you get a check, you know, goodbye." I didn't didn't think it actually would give you the car back, but

yeah, you can keep the car and take a lesser amount.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Huh? Because I have a a friend who I work with who got god what is it? I think it's like a classic like Thunderbird or something like that and he bought it off this guy cuz he had it in his garage. I think it was like somewhere in New York and when like Hurricane Sandy came by like it flooded but it basically just kind of flooded like the water just touched like the bottom part of like the undercarriage or something and the insurance insurance company was just like, "It's totaled." He was like, "What?" And so then they, you know, they they paid him out, you know, some money and then they took the car and then they were like, "Well, for like $2,000 or something some ridiculously small amount of money. It's like you can have it back." And he was like, "Uh, all right." You know, he sold it to my friend for like 10 or something. So he's like, "I get the money plus more money." You know, like I thought when they total a car, it's just I don't know. My experience is always is kind of gone. Like I never even thought about to ask.

A lot of cars that were in Sandy did get flooded like that and it like started a pretty nasty actually more in like Katrina or other things where they get flooded with more disgusting water. Sandy wasn't as bad, but there's a lot of salt water in it. So a lot of those cars are now like very cheap. Yeah. It's kind of what buyer beware, right? Like, you know, you buy this cheap rotted out on the inside.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm imagine if it's like completely submerged or like submerged up to like the

the rearview mirrors or something, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's only a few spots where Sandy say most of the Sandy is like three to less feet.

Oh, okay.

Except for maybe like Red Hook or

So, what do you use? this for like your kind of like your chassis or like your base model for art car. I mean suppose it's like each one of these is a little bit different, right? I mean use like a car or a bus or a truck. Um I've made I think probably like 25 art cars. So

Oh, really?

I don't It's hard to just pick one chassis or something, but traditionally I'm a Ford guy. I was raised by a Ford mechanic and uh or was like taught early as a by a Ford mechanic, my stepdad. And then I like Hondas. Um there's lots of different reasons. I like different vehicles. Like right now I'm pretty much just making electric vehicles and cars. The

one I did last year, the It's like taking

Cyber Cat.

It's one I made with um Marion.

Oh, really? She likes her cats. So, would you take like a gas powered car and convert it to electric or you starting with like more like electric car?

Well, like we just converted Robot Heart over to electric and There's another vehicle that Robart has called uh Shadybot that is getting converted to electric this year. Um thinking about doing it to the dragon, but I'm not sure that's what I'm going to do for this year, but eventually I would.

I mean, how just wondered about like, you know, like cuz electric vehicle like art cars and the ply are definitely getting more are popular, but just in terms of charging them, you know, I mean, it's I mean, I guess, you know, people have those those giant traileriz generators, but you know, that everyone's trying to go green. I mean, we can have like like fields of solar panels and like god must be a lot of batteries, right?

There's solar powered generators out there.

Oh, yeah. But like enough electricity to power like a double-decker bus or, you know, even like a smashed that Honda Civic. I mean, I guess on the pliad it's like you're not driving around like you don't know. Well, I don't know. Like how many miles would you drive around? Like if you're just kind of driving around from like Monday through Monday like drive I mean

really really depends on

Yeah. the camp or the vehicle.

I mean like robot heart I'm sure like they drive and they park right and then they don't move for a little while.

Um they drive about 10 miles a day maybe.

Oh yeah. Well, plus I'm sure they probably would use more electricity with their like sound and lighting and

the sound eats it up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Acoustic, right?

But it's a huge battery bank of lithium ion and lithium ion batteries.

Um the sperm mobiles, which are like golf carts with aluminum frames on them. I when James passed away, uh, one of my friends, Tom Lee, bought a couple of them and converted those over to lithium ion off the lead acid, and those run for most of the day before they wear out. Marian's car is on a 2011 um - Patriot which is a what's

that electric vehicle made in Minnesota and we converted that over to lithium ion off of the lead acid batteries. So those do a lot better out there with just no fluids or you know

they don't mind the heat and the charging. It's pretty quick.

Yeah, I was going to assholes. Like, how does the the batteries and the like the electric car tech like do with like the heat and the like desert conditions out there?

Uh, they like it.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Cuz I just noticed that like, you know, like battery packs and like phones and even I have like electric car and like some a lot of times like when it's hot it's like it tends to like like the battery tends like run down faster. when it's hot.

Yeah.

I think it's the opposite, but

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, so like cold is like not so good for batteries, right?

They don't like cold. Like they don't want to get stored in freezing temperature. I mean, right here it's like what, eight below? So

Oh, that's right. Yeah. You guys are getting the the polar freezer. Look, we're recording this and uh January 24th. So big big huge freeze across the country. Yeah, it's chilly here in Hawaii. It's like 63 degrees or something.

Yeah, you

uh Aahu like Northshore, but it's funny cuz like it gets down to like 60 65 and no joke people are putting on like puffy jackets.

Oh yeah.

They're like it's so cold

like that. I'll eat you.

He's like, "You don't know that. You don't know cold." No, cuz I grew up on the east coast and uh went to school in Burlington, Vermont. And I remember I remember one day the temperature shifted 60° and was still below freezing likeus 30 to 30 and then just Yeah. Yeah. And just like going outside and it's like my whole like my beard would like freeze up and I remember like I always come back home and like I' race through the door and run up the to go look at like the mirror cuz it would like melt like real fast. It's like I want to see the ice up my face or just also like people saying like don't breathe in too deeply. It's like why it's like oh you

freeze your lungs.

Yeah. Yeah. So of course what do you do?

Yeah.

38 below and eight below is a lot different. But I grew up in Minnesota so we when the when I was in uh college. I guess right before I came out to Birdie Man, I worked at this parade company called Holidayazzle. The parade was downtown Minneapolis to get people to come back downtown to go shopping because the Mall America had been built and we would only stop the parade if it was below 25 below, which happens I think a handful of times every year.

Mh. becoming less frequent. But even I

think yesterday the it got down to like 20 below there.

Well, see that's where like flame effects could come in as a public service, right?

Yeah. I Well, I got certified to do pyro and some things that we did in special effects when I worked in the movies and I've pretty much let other people do that. From now on, I after having kids, it was just kind of like, is it really cool to be burning off propane for fun?

Yeah.

I don't know. That's like

So, uh,

judging people who do it and I think it's still fun.

Oh, yeah. I can only imagine how much propane's burned off at Burning Man.

Yeah.

A lot.

Some years a lot more than others. Yeah.

Yeah. So, uh, when how long did you work, uh, you said you worked in the movies,

the movie industry?

Yep.

How long did you do that

in TV? And what

how long did you do that for?

Um, see, I guess started I was on Junkyard War. his first season, one of their last seasons. That would have been 2001, I think.

I don't know. Getting old. I don't remember all these dates anymore, but

Yeah.

Then I did some Monster Garage. I did um what's it called? Uh rock and roll acid test. What's that?

That was a show on Fuse that was trying to be Mythbusters kind of but for rock and roll myths.

Oh,

it's around the same time that uh Smash Labs was on

Discovery Channel.

Okay.

Wow.

And then That's when I started apprenticing or let's see around then 2002 I think I started apprenticing for Christian Risto who part of survival research labs and started uh rebel Christrist and

oh

another artist at Bernie man but he worked in the movies so a lot of it was just you know building stuff for him.

Mhm.

Stuff that he was making more for art while he would go and work on like uh AI or Spider-Man or whatever. And then

um couple of like a lot of the other guys that worked with him were also in the movies and TV. So that's

whatever happened to like Survival Research Labs and Semen and stuff because I mean I I remember seeing some of their shows is I used to live in San Francisco like the later 90s you and uh yeah I mean I I didn't really I haven't really heard much of them in like a long time. I mean I guess well like you said like everybody grows up and some people have kids and you know like other other priorities you know Um, Mark still does shows all over the world. Uh, they're not really allowed to do stuff in San Francisco as much anymore

because of those shows that you went to and

Uhhuh.

him giving out free fake bombs that showed up everywhere and basically creating a vendetta with the fire chief of San Francisco that's been passed down.

He did a show There's one in San I mean, you can look on their website. They do shows all over the place.

Huh. So, they're still around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I imagine like post 911, too. Like, they must been uh just like, "Yeah, no, you you can't do this s*** anymore." Like, we're now going to classify guys like terrorists or something.

Um, well, no, they still did shows.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just I just remember one like they case after 911. There's one in San Jose. There's one in Amsterdam.

Tokyo.

Yeah. I just remember this one like underneath the freeway in San Francisco like um

that's the one everyone talks about. Yep.

Going with the the giant like water tower full of putrid liquid. I've never seen a crowd of like hundreds of people just like in unison. It It was almost like you could draw a line like everyone was just like moving backwards. It was like it was just this tower this water came out and like oh that's kind of funny and then it just like it's like wait like one two three and all a sudden and then just immediately everybody moving back

yeah Mark Pauline is really amazing human being is you know I think considered the godfather of American robotic performance art and and I think he's one of the most intelligent and creative people on on the planet.

Wow. So now today uh like like in Detroit like I mean do you uh do you

not to mention all the other people that are part of re Survival Research Labs too. I don't want to leave them out because it is a collection of some of the most

Oh yeah.

nerdiest uh creatives and um specifically just like machine artists that use, you know, ex-military products and as like art like ex-military vehicles and weapons and etc. as

art materials and turn them into something that's um I think really beautiful but

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Has anyone documented any of their their stuff. I mean that that's the quite quite a story, you know. I mean going back like decades now, you know, I mean like I said there there's probably like number of people you could mention a number of art and events. I mean that show Robot Wars was stolen from them. There's a very there's a couple couple books about that.

There is uh Mark's website or I mean surv side has all of it.

Very well documented.

Yeah. All right. Um, so yeah. So for you to today, I mean, so do you I mean you're still continuing on with your art and uh I mean do you have do you I mean other than like Bernie man like I guess do you like take your art like to you said like other like festivals and or do you have like shows or

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. All right. Cool. Um, well, let's let's go into like your your background. So, it's like uh where'd you grow up? How did this all begin for you?

Grew up in Minneapolis.

I to the Lola and Rudy Perpiches Center for Arts Education for High School, which is a arts high school.

And I went to Minneapolis College of Art and Design and lived on Portland Avenue where they just killed that lady.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow. You grew up on that street?

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, I didn't grow up there, but that's where I lived when I

Yeah.

moved out of the dorms in high school.

Wow. So, I take it you still have like a lot of friends, family there.

Yeah.

Yeah. How do you how do you feel about all that? think I feel been coming for a while. I think

it's horrible. Um

yeah,

I don't know that there's anything to do other than just make art and try to inspire people in ways that I've trained for. Um

but Well, yeah. Anyway, um so you went to like a arts high school and

I know saw rally yesterday where there's like like I think it was like 60,000 people just showed up and just surrounded the hotel where they're all staying.

Yeah, I saw some pictures of that like last night. Yeah. Like it's incredible. And it's like freezing there too, right?

Yeah.

Wow.

I don't think there's I mean there's a reason and that they're they're doing that to Minnesota. Just the you know um kind of more socialist leftist and you know

well I think people

president said it pretty clearly when he says you know retribution is coming it's like well take him at his word. It's like is this a law enforcement thing or is this a personal Anyway, we don't really go too much in politics in my show. It's more about you and I'm talking about you as an artist. Uh so, um Okay. So, you went to art art high school in Minneapolis and uh did you go to college too or?

Yep. Minneapolis College of Art Design. Went there for a while and then after going to Bernie man just like met Christian and guys from SRL like Cal and It's like, okay, this is more I'm gonna learn a lot more from these guys than I am from the art school,

art and design classes.

Yeah. I mean, that was in 97 or 98 99ish um when I made that decision. And you know, school had really turned from being focused on uh was like um visual art and just like sculpture. I had other good programs too, but it really s uh it fired off a lot of people and hired on a lot of people to you know work on web art and the internet had just started really becoming a viable teachable product. So

a lot of people started going there for 3D well for more for like computer in web design,

like multimedia stuff with Yeah. called it back then, right? Yeah.

There were teachers that were teaching, you know, robotics and electronics and stuff, but I learned a lot more from Cal and Christian and Greg Jones. And

so you you went to Burning Man, you got the bug. Did you like move out to the Bay Area or did you like Where'd you go from there?

Uh, I got a place in the Bay. I left Minneapolis and was already like touring around with that circus a bit, living in New Orleans over the winter. Went to New York in 200 one. Got there like a couple weeks before the towers blew up. Oh wow.

And then kept a place in Brooklyn and one in Oakland going back and forth. Sometimes living out at the work ranch, sometimes living in New Orleans, sometimes New York, sometimes Oakland, but also traveling um you know go to Coachella in LA and go out to Amsterdam or Spain or Is this with this the circus group you're talking about?

Just doing different art projects.

Oh, yeah. I was going to ask

mostly the circus mostly turned around the states.

Oh, okay. And what did you do with the circus?

I was the tall bike to tall jousting champion of the world.

God, I remember that. Okay, so for the listeners, people probably either haven't been to Bernie man or they not that old. The tall bikes is like a one bike welded on top of another, right? So, it's like two bikes tall. And I just remember that we had a guy in our camp like one year, I think it was like late 90s, and he came back and I guess he'd been to Rampart and had some nasty injury. We're like, what happened? He was like, well, I was in the tall bike jousting competition and he decided his stick he was going to was like, well, I'm going to do it completely naked. We're like, I don't think That's a great idea. And so I guess the other his uh competitor kept uh like pointing the lance like at his at his junk and and managed to contact.

I think he he tried to ram me too. That was his other tactic.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That guy was camping with us. Really? Yeah.

That was like back in the day. Yeah. God, you don't really see those bikes around anymore. God, it's been years. Well, I guess now everything's a ebike, right?

Um Oh, you made the plan.

Yeah,

I think they're still out there.

Oh, really? But

you bikes are pretty sweet, too.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've always just been kind of hoofing it in all these years. Sucker, but um All right. Well,

that's a good tip.

Well, I don't know. I tend you tend to see things more, you know, you're not just like like zooming around, you know, although would like to have an art card that you're, you know, use of one to see more than just like a tiny fraction of it rather than like, you know, walking a marathon every single day, you know,

I tended to do like a half marathon like every day like Yeah. But um What's your typical day at Burning Man you like to

Well, there's the different eras, right? Like, like back in the the day, like I first went in 96 and me and my brother, we started this camp called the Cult of Distraction and it it was a a bar, you know, and there were some years it's like we didn't even like leave the camp, you know, and then my always tell people like my worst nightmare was like, you know, you're hanging out, you're having having a good time and you look up and that sky turns from like jet black to like dark blue and you're just like a f***, you know, like another night of no sleep. It's like that's like three, four in a row, you know?

Yeah.

Just and you know, always sleeping like intense, you know? So, I'm like uh there's no sleeping during the day, you know. So, but nowadays like I actually took 13 years off and you know to like mostly like raise my son who's now he's turning 18. in a couple weeks and he's going to be going off to to college and so it's like yeah so Delet 24 was the first year I went back and then I went back again like last year and so but this year I can't go because I got to take him off to college but uh I think next year the cult of distraction is going to be back. Um but yeah so this this time around it's like my schedule's kind of changed where I was like I'm like you know what getting a good night's sleep is actually really nice. Like you like waking up in the morning and and being like brighteyed and bushy tailed and it's just like I can walk around and I can see all sorts of things and you know it's like I don't know just it's just like very different interactions with people. It's like I still would stay up like you know fairly late but just not you know the all night every night and then you know like by Wednesday I'm not like a a zombie. you know, like I was in years past and I have people showing up like let's go out and have fun. I'm like, you know, more like surirly and I don't want to do anything.

Yeah.

But I don't know. You said you have uh kids too, right? Has the Burning Man like the sort of changed for you?

Um, well, it has. We've brought him out there a couple times now that They're like, you know, 13 and 15 and they're pretty much like, "Yeah, whatever, Dad." Um, zoned, but um they Let's see. I would say there's a big chunk of my income that comes from building things for Bernie man. And whether it's uh our projects or our cars or related stuff to Bernie man, you know, going to some of the um the other events that or what do they call them? Uh I don't know, like love burn. What is it called? It's a offshoot. There's a name for it, but now they're kind of even

Oh, you mean it's a non-sanctioned like unofficial Burning Man like but not Yeah, I don't call it.

It was I think it had like permission for a while but now it's like they got an argument. I don't even know what's going on with that.

I don't completely understand it either. I I think it's uh was like a regional event like a official Burning Man sanction sanctioned like regional event but uh yeah there was some sort of dispute and so they I guess they they pulled the official sanctioning or something. But

yeah,

it was kind of like in the old cacophony days with like, you know, it's what do they say that like on their their newsletter they would have um you know, they would have cacophony things and then things was like sounds like cacophony, you know, it's kind of kind of like that.

Yeah.

But I could only imagine like with you know, your kids like I mean you must be like and we think like objectively about it's like wow you must be like the coolest dad. You You know, it's like you you build all these incredible things and you go to all these incredible like events and people are just like, "Wow, like fetting you, you know, just like, yeah, you know, it's like you're the man." But of course to like any kid, it's like, yeah, you're you're lame, Dad. Um, well, I think there's specific feelings on me right now or like pretty different the two of them. Um,

you know, my daughter will answer the phone if I call. My son's kind of like he's the younger one. Uh, I would go in to the school and, you know, volunteer building their sets for their theater class and

then coach the robotics team and they won nationals and Wow.

Got to meet the president and stuff. They're both 4.0 kids and

awesome.

Top of the tops of their class. Um, but they go to this school called Cast here now, which is a high school that it's the top school in Detroit. And a lot of the programs are based. They have art great good art program. They have great engineering and My son's going for architecture and it's pretty strict that you have to keep your grades above like a 3.8 or you get kicked out.

Really? Wow. Wow. That's incredible. Wow. Well, it says to me that you're doing a good job.

Well, I want to give credit to their mom more, too.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And themselves. Like they

of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But takes a village. Right now I hardly hardly see him.

Yeah. But I don't know. I always just think about how like no matter what kid I've ever mentioned, they're always just like, "Yeah, no, my parents not cool." It's like, no, actually your parent is is is objectively cool.

I think that's, you know, part of growing up is you just your parents aren't cool because you're trying to find this independence. And that's something that I think I can be supported of good. And

yeah,

you know,

also they always have to do the opposite thing, right? You know, I don't know what that would be, you know, like be like Alex Gaton or Tradife, you know.

Totally.

Yeah.

I mean, there is some of that, but I mean my I don't know also like one of the last times we hung out that's wearing a robot heart hoodie. She's just like, "That's mine now."

It's like, "Oh, that's I thought I wasn't cool." Like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever."

Yeah. Um,

yeah. I don't know if it it I don't know. Each kid is different, so

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's different. All right. Well, I guess this kind of gets us on to our last question. Uh what is like the the impact and influence of Burning Man on your life?

Uh I mean the first thing that really was amazing to see there was just the scale of art that you could create and the idea of the gallery where you're showing art being seemingly infinite and between working DPW and building a lot of big projects out there and working with other artists who are like, you know, number one doing something they had never tried before on a scale they've never tried before on, you know, new projects every year, whether it was the temples or the man base or, I don't know, dozens other projects that I helped work on when I was running the metal shop or working uh for what like became art support services. And just watching uh Burning Man itself grow from, you know, it being a wild 80 acre ranch with a couple cowboys on it to maybe even a thousand. I don't know how many I don't know how many people DPW is up to, but with volunteers and everyone over the years. It's, you know, a huge number of people that have worked there. Um, seeing how those systems were created and how that organization itself grew from you know six six to eight people or even like okay even before that like 96 and you know John Law and knowing those people or seeing how integrated people like from Surv Research Labs and Cacophony Society and these other groups kind of all just got mingled in as burners and parts of the conversation of what it means to go to Burning Man and how people identify with that. Um it's been really interesting.

Yeah.

Well, 96 was definitely like one of the big transition years, right? I remember like Steuart Mangram was said was Oh yeah, I can't remember the phrase he used, but it was it was like there was it was like that was the year like Cacophony and Bernie man kind of had a very public divorce or something. So like and then like I was reading like Coyote's book, you know, so I guess like after like 96 like they say there's like oh yeah they lost like everybody and they had to kind of like rebuild and so that was kind of almost like the beginning of like the modern kind of like DPW I guess we start like 97 onwards or something. Is that all right?

Yeah. That's when uh Michael was riding on his motorcycle and

Fury. Yeah.

In the dark died and then you know some of the things that were said by Larry and his staff versus what the feelings were of the cacophony society people that were just like this is just going to get more sold out and turned into exactly what it did. But as the artist said, I not going to pick a side on that. I love both of those groups.

Oh, yeah.

Different reasons.

Yeah.

Uh and it's sad that people have died out there and I've seen it firsthand and it's man, that'll that'll change you for a while. But um

yeah,

I think any situation where you have people getting together like that, there's going to be some of that or just

Yeah. Well, that's also part of the reason why they have like over the years is the evolution of like all the the bureaucracy and the rules and

Oh, yeah. You know,

I have four rules under my belt. started because of me. And

you mean you're the the instigator of these four rules or you're the reason why?

No. No more shockwave cannons. Uh no more uh pulsejet driven carnival rides.

Oh, I remember something like that. Yeah. See,

it was like this little cart thing. They had a pulse jet thing. Anyway, yeah. Um No more uh wind powered um vehicles during the event. I mean, all this stuff is during the event, too. They would still let us get off out, but we had

wind power. You mean like with a sail or something?

Yeah, we had a a land sail that we were riding during the event and it hurt too many people.

Was that the one was almost like a catamaran thing? Had like airplane tires and I remember there was some big white out and it like

there was a couple. Yeah. The one we made was more like bike size, but

Yeah. Now, this one was like large. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember the big one. That one was uh See, he was

I'm pretty sure it was uh Paul he was part of Cacophony in San Francisco and he did like the hammock camp. Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? I can't remember.

Anyway,

Paul Dejang,

I think.

So, what's number four?

So, let's see. No pulse powered chats, no wind powered, no uh let's see, we had we had a a rocket turbine that was shooting flames off the back of my uh skull car, which is like a dune buggy, but basically now all flamethrowers have to be pointed up. Can't be horizontal.

I mean, I think it wasn't like at like head level, right? I mean,

it was Yeah, like none of the Well, let's see. We didn't permanently damage anybody from any of those things, but it was just determined that

can't take the risk like

I had found the line and we had crossed it.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just kind of interesting to me. Another thing like talking about just like the impact influence it bring on your life. It's like you you were in Minneapolis like went to like a arts high school, went to college like for arts and then you come out to Black Rockck Desert and you see all this stuff and it kind of like opens your your mind. And I know there's always a a thing going on for years that that like like the art at Bernie man was like like in terms of like the art world is like is this really art you know or you know it's like oh if rank amateurs can just bring a bunch of junk out to the desert and and like just cobble things together you know it's like is that that really I mean I guess you know high art you know, back in the day because they would kind of turn up their noses at that, you know, but but now, I mean, like all these years later, I mean, I don't know. What's your impression? I

um I don't know. We did a show in the Smithsonian that was all Bernie man art.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

There's with any art, there's going to be snobs and it's going to be like, you know, the outsiders that are just making it for themselves or or that's I think that's a point of view thing, not like anything I ever cared to. I always thought it was a lot more amazing to kind of tear down that velvet rope and the art world and make stuff that people could participate with, interact with, touch,

ride on.

Yeah. I think I don't know. I love that. Just it's like instead of debating, it's just like I'm just going to do it, right? You know, like

Yeah. I I mean also even in the high art world there's art that I think is uh it's just somebody throwing some s*** together and talking about it. That's

mean like a banana tape to a wall.

It's a great example.

Yeah.

You know, another big thing that changed for 96. I think that was the first year when it was in Wired, you know, came about

kind of came out of the underground a little bit more and got

well, I think when uh Marian stepped in and they they started the board and it wasn't just like, you know, bunch of guys spending whatever money they had and maybe keeping receipts or maybe not or just the stuff that was going on in the ranch when we were there was wild. And you know, um when stuff did get really wild up there and came out was just like, okay, what's going on?

Well, I guess in a certain sense that's just kind of not sustainable, right? I mean,

I don't know. Just like one of those scenes from the coyotes blood moons, like they're all at the ranch having

sustainable. I think

everyone has their guns with It didn't have I mean it still is kind of like that but

Mhm.

Uh definitely

there were some things that happened and without naming like names you probably read about it in different books too but just like things that happened where was like uh women were not treated with uh the respect they deserve and that's when You know, a lot of us were like, "Hey, if this doesn't change immediately, like we're all walking out now. You can deal with it your own self." And Marian was like very much there and listened and made sure that changes were made and empowered women from there. And before then, there was a lot of empowering of women, but just like

s*** like that got dealt with immediately. It seemed like um not that they're never happened since or something because I think that's just unfortunately

that's been a longstanding case.

Yeah. I mean I mean I wouldn't even I wouldn't even say this wouldn't 100% like even solved like now you know but

yeah and I think it is getting better hopefully and I don't work there anymore directly but I am on my I do. I do still have friends that you know have been there the whole time and

Mhm.

I have seen a lot of good changes. So

yeah. So you uh you still keep going back, huh? I mean like every single year or you take time off or

um Well, my kids were both born during Burning Man and I did not go when they were born. Um so I missed a couple years there. A close friend passed away right before the event a couple years ago. So yeah, but I've missed a few but um because of all the work I have done out there and just when I was younger and made a lot of connections, I would be out there for you know almost half the year. setting stuff up and working on the ranch and

preparing stuff for the next year, cleaning up everything. And so, a lot of the contacts I made and just a lot of the people I worked with continue to go out there. Um, I do have multiple cars that go out there, so I do go out and try to help maintain some of those. Mhm.

But or like try to build a new art car every year, least one.

So, is that what uh keeps you coming back like the people, the art cars?

Um, yeah. I mean, also just getting to hang out with the other artists and the other friends that I've made along the way. You know, when I first met Robot Heart, I think I explained that I was like, I don't know, LED guys. Like back then I was punk and it was like sleep doors and explosions and stuff like we were doing that we weren't like some of those things that you can't do anymore like I was saying. But also it's just like ah you know rich frat boys like I don't know I don't want to I don't want to help them. I'm better than them I think. And I was pretty cocky and then that that experience of me just like feeling like that and then catching myself and being like, uh, f*** it, let's give it a try. And watching those guys grow from being young, uh, some of them uh, just like womanizing, you know, wild young males uh,

partying, you know,

most of uh like a lot of the uh more I don't know people that have their own companies and stuff, you know, they're more alpha. They're more like

talking s*** and just stuff like

Do you think like Brandy Man is kind of changing not to stick my foot in my mouth here, but what I meant to say is like watching them grow

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

into to really amazing parents. Uh really amazing like what I would almost consider brothers. Um and you know seeing like I remember showing up to Robot Heart and getting on Playa and Gio was just like you know the cops would come up right to camp in the early days. to Robot Heart and I would always be like, "God, why are they why are you guys being nice to them? f*** the cops, everything." Just from experiences I had as a young man and just how I felt and uh and just like hating authority in a way

to you know, Gio was like, "No, dude, check it out. We made these like custom goggles. that we only these ones are only for the cops, right? And then, you know, people that are part of Robot Hard who are like the top venture capitalists from the military and just like ex Green Beretss or you know like Wes Clark would stay at our camp and come in on a Blackhawk helicopter and

really

stuff or I would never have had access to

Well, maybe not. Not I'm not gonna say I would never have had access, but that is like how I opened up my access to all the different classes that are out there. And that is part of what keeps me coming back is just the amazement of the theater of life and how fun it is out there. How many influential people and just intelligent people come out there, but also just a bunch of stupid awesome idiot friends that are like having the most fun and you know playing the clown or the jester like all the different roles are out there and just it's so so unlike any other festival or group of people that you can put together.

Oh yeah. Like I always tell people and I think I put like a meme out in social media a couple years ago about this like if it was all about just a big party, you know, like we're just going to just go out somewhere get f***** up. It's like, would you keep doing that year after year after decade after decade, you know? It's like you get older. It was like, yeah, you're in your 20s. Like, yeah, yeah, we all have a good time, you know, but like, you know, your 40s, 50s, 60s, you know, it's like you it's like that that's what the whole basis of this show is about. It's just it's like what drives people. It's like why why keep going? And like what you said, that's exactly it. Like

Brady man just has this and I think cacophony before that too and after, you know, it's like this this weird magic melting pot. You know, it takes people from different backgrounds and strangers now like all over the world, people of all different ethnicities and and nationalities and backgrounds and ideology and genders and whatever and socioeconomic statuses and whatever. And it's like, you know, after, you know, a week or a couple days in the dust, like, you know, I mean, you're not spilling blood the same mud, but you know, it's like, h, you know, scraping your hand in rust and same dust. I mean, you know, like you said, like people, it's like, oh, you never would have thought that you would kind of make friends with these people, you know, but it turns out it's like, hey, you know, I'm human, you're human, you know, I mean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or like um, you know, there's like a a group chat that some of us are in with some law enforcement guys and some like

really it's hilarious to see how similar we all are creating those borders, you know, like we talked a little bit about Minneapolis and ICE, but I mean I see unfortunately both sides and how people got involved with, you know, wanting to become part of ICE and There's a pretty gnarly subtext on that. And then there's also, you know, who am I to say that the motans and the socialism and the, you know,

things that are going on there are better, more American or should be stood up for. I mean, we're all just still people. And I think if anything, uh, Bernie man is one of the best examples of how all those people will come together

and you can be from anywhere. You don't even have to like

get into a conflict about it.

Yeah. Yeah.

It was amazing. Um, you know, cacophony was like that too. I think one of the best parts of cacophony is just it's the way it got people to interact and be involved and become what I would say is performance art. So when people are like,

"Oh, Bernie man's Special Olympics of the art world or it's this or you know it's not good enough or oh you're like okay. So yeah, but you're still like out there and trying.

Yeah.

You're still trying to at least have some freedom of expression and you're doing it in an environment that is highly difficult and demanding and hard on gear and hard on people, hard on your lungs. hard on your eyes, hard on like you know uh you know

would it be the same if it was easy? I mean it's like

sure I think anytime people are trying to make art like you know your example I I understand what you're trying to ask and I hope I answered it in the most thorough way that I believe but

okay sure

as an artist like you know if somebody's people say something like oh yeah I can't even draw a straight line like Well, it doesn't mean you can't write a poem or, you know, sing a song or

Mhm.

draw a picture with no straight lines in it or

Yeah.

You know, it's really just if people are deciding they're better than the others or not and there is no winner in the art world. Like is that person who's stressed out with, you know, 15 employees that are working in their studio making their art for them and they're basically just you know doing the marketing part or you know walking in and being like ah good work everybody and then all the work's being created by somebody else and they're taking all the credit for it. Are they happier than the person who's just like in their dorm room, you know, drawing bugs or whatever they're doing like

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess it's their own personal radical self-expression, right? I mean, like there's no one right way. I mean, thing

there's no Yeah. There's no like winner in the art world. It's not like sports. You can't like turn it into a competition like that. You can pick your favorites and you can decide why you like things better than others maybe, but

critique it, but uh I don't there's no like champion.

I think it's more of like a kind of artsy kind of comp. competition thing where it's like we kind of all challenge ourselves and challenge each other to challenge ourselves to like do like the most that you could possibly do like your own radical self-expression kind of thing. I always just remember this. I don't know where I heard this from, but it was like comparison is the best tool of the devil. I mean, not that I'm religious or anything, you know, but I was just kind of like, yeah, you know, it's like don't think about like, you know, it's like like Tiffany over there is building a larger arc car than me, you know? It's just like, well, I'm doing my thing and she's doing her thing, you know? It's just like, why are you comparing? You know, it's just like I like what you're doing and she likes what I'm doing. Hey, you know, great.

Yeah. I mean, I have my favorites, but I think just anytime anyone's trying, it's pretty awesome.

Yeah. And you get inspiration. We inspire each other, you know.

All right. Well, uh

there's there's another part of it that like you know who's going to be who's going to be more likely to feel like they wish they had been the other person. Is it going to be like the entrepreneur who made all the money and just focused on chasing that or is it going to be would they have rather been the artist

and lived in a way where they were able to express freely? and create and inspire people in that way. And I don't know that I have the answer to that until I die. But

that the grass is always greener kind of argument, you know.

Sure. I just also, you know, going to school and I was pushed really hard and had really good grades and test scores, etc. And it's like, oh, you got to be a doctor, you got to be a lawyer, you got to be like this and like I think the thing that would be most helpful to the the world for me to do is just create and try to inspire people with the things that I'm making and feel very lucky to be able to wake up and do that.

Yeah. Well, you've lived an incredible life. I mean, you've made a lot of beautiful art. I mean, it's like Yeah. Like I said, you can always compare. Grass is kind of greener side of the fence, whatever, but You know, it's like I don't know. I always think just like no regrets, right? You know, it's like I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm living a great life. Got a great family, great kids, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're lucky.

And we can still go back to Burning Man next year and see all our friends.

Which reminds me, I should get back to work.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've been about hour and 24 here. It's usually about the limit. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview. No problem. Thank you. You have a lovely day out there.

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