EP 69 Justin Credible

Episode 69 with Justin Credible is out now! Meet Justin Credible, a seventh-generation Nevadan who shares her deep-rooted connection to the Black Rock Desert. She shares her childhood memories of performing archaeological surveys with her father to her pivotal role in the early development of Burning Man during the 1990s. A main story is her portrayal of Empress Zoe in the 1996 opera, a performance she describes as a transformative spiritual channeling that redefined her identity. Throughout the conversation, Credible reflects on the festival's evolution from a primal, communal gathering of artists to a complex society grappling with modern issues like technology, consent, and environmental stewardship. Her story speaks to the power of the desert as a space for radical self-expression and the enduring importance of non-transactional human connection.

@djjustincredible

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcast and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party, drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. No one special, just that Andy. Today our guest is Justin Credible. Welcome.

Thank you. Andy, it's so nice to be here.

Yeah. Well, as we were talking about, like uh it's a bit rainy for me. I mean, this episode's going to come out in like June, so this will all be like uh old history, but uh recording this in

the the eyides of March, right? Or what's the 21st or something? Yeah. Yeah. A little more than the March.

The deluge that

Yeah.

down on Hawaii.

Yeah. Well, hopefully Bernie this year will be drier than Hawaii is now.

Fingers crossed.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, what was your first year? So, we we were talking about you were actually Empress Zoey in the in 1996 in the opera.

Yes. But let's go back even before that. So,

yeah. All right.

I um unlike almost every other person I know, actually grew up on the Playa.

Really?

Yeah. So, my My father was an archaeologist and a geologist and we would spend most summers on the Playa in the area, Sheldon Analopee Refuge, um, uh, Smoke Creek Desert, really, Pyramid Lake, all over. Um, so, so yeah, that was like literally one of my formidable memories, my earliest memories as maybe a three or fouryear-old. Um, we used to come out to the middle of the in my dad's van

and uh often it was my mom and dad and I most of the time it was just my dad and I

and we would you know there was no it was a vast expanse it's you know it's the vastest expanse of wide open land in the win western hemisphere

it goes on for 90 miles in its length and 30 miles at its most width um you can see it from space was a bit obsessed with the desert And uh so I remember being like I said about three or four years old and we were setting up we would bring the van out and kind of set up a little camp and my they were setting up the camp and I was a pretty gregarious young young one. I remember looking out at that vast open playa and I remember no one really paying attention to me which really never happened because I was always either taking my clothes off, running cuz I was a feral desert child, you know, running running away, like I would have been one of those kids if they had leashes back then. So, I remember looking at both my parents, they weren't paying attention to me and I just ran and I ran and I ran and I ran. Not, you know, I was only three or four years old.

Um, and not too far, but I remember being, you know, kind of a ways out and I just sat down and it was incredibly quiet and it was so peaceful. And then I remember kind of looking back and just seeing my dad just lean up against the van and you know, clearly no one was coming out to get me and I couldn't really go that far and so they just let me be and I sat out there for a while and then I got hungry and I came back in and you know, but um so then for the entirety of my life, my father and I would um jump in the van and go out to the Playa uh do archaeological surveying. He was constantly saying things like, "Justin, do you see the stratification in the rock over there? That's during the early plastic scene when the lake was Lake Lontan was this. So I knew the whole

Wow.

a lot of the history and geology and archaeology um of the area. My father was an honorary member of the Pyute tribe.

He designed the visitor center of Pyramid Lake. Um he was an avid photographer. Got some incredible photos of the area. Uh we found, you know, I have a whole collection of um arrowheads, points from um his adventures. Um So that was really my homeland.

So did you grow up like in like ger or

areno? Oh okay.

I'm a seventh generation re Nevada neadan.

Wow. Wow.

One of my relatives um was born in Genanoa, Nevada, and he was the first white male to have been born in Genanoa, Nevada.

Wow.

Uh yeah. So you know uh very much a history of that was my ancestral land.

Wow.

So, so like I take this was like maybe like what the 70s or something like that like you guys were

uh Yeah. Well, yeah. So, I was born in 68 so you know I'm real bad with years unfortunately.

No, cuz I was born 71 and like I remember like we would jump in the car like and take camping trips and stuff like you know back in the day you know but I I was just trying to imagine cuz we would go to like places like like Vermont. It would be like a lake in the woods and but I was just imagining it was like my family like took me out to the desert. I mean that would be beautiful you know but

well you know

your first taste of like freedom like you can run out to the middle of nowhere and then they're just like where are you going to go like

yeah

you'll come back

where you gonna go.

It was sort of um complicated for me because I grew up in Reno and many of my friends were quite wealthy and they their parents on casinos and they would go to Hawaii or they would go, you know, on their breaks they would go any place else but the middle of the desert. And I really I I struggled to find any friend who wanted to go to the middle of the Black Rockck with me and my dad. So,

um, sometimes it felt a little bit like, uh, here we go. I guess I got to spend, you know, a few weeks in the desert with my dad. Um, And it was it was a little bit lonely, but you know, looking back, of course, I cherish those memories and those adventures. And we did things like he was hired by the BLM to do um to document the wild horses, excuse me, that at one point the wild horses had completely taken over the desert. They they were breeding out of control and they were not in good health. and they were um corelling them so that they could kind of help the the um uh what do you call a group of horses?

Herd.

Herds. The herds. Thank you. The herd. They would cor you know corral these herds and then either adopt out the healthy ones but then also put down the unhealthy ones. And I mean there were hundreds and hundreds of wild horses is not indigenous to the area. They were also ruining a lot of um you know uh just they were not doing well for the desert. So

I mean how do they survive out there? I mean I guess they're sources of water.

There's a lot more water than you think.

Yeah.

Um and there's been donkeys wild burrows out there as well, but neither one they were all they were all brought over by the Spanish. Uh, so but I remember as maybe a 13-year-old, so he taught me to drive when I was quite young because if we were in the middle of nowhere, I had I would have to drive out.

And I'll never forget I learned to drive on the Playa and I was, you know, in this Volkswagen van and the clutch. And I we had to put a little thing of wood on the clutch so I could get the clutch. But we were He would spy he spied this huge herd of wild horses. And we he said, "Okay." And get in the, you know, I got in the driver's seat and he strapped himself to the top of the van and he instructed me to drive through the middle of the wild horses so that he could get these shots, you know, and meanwhile there are wild horses galloping next to my window and I'm trying desperately not to hit a wild horse at 13 years old.

Oh my god.

So, you know, it wasn't just hanging out, chilling. It was a lot of um geology and

yeah and finding caves with ar you know pyude um artifacts and um a lot at pyramid lake a lot of time at pyramid lake that was truly that's where I was baptized as it were um my parents weren't religious but my father was adopted and his family was like you have to baptize her so he said he took me out there and went ubby dooby or something and just you know put me in the water um so you know, cut to I moved out when I was 15 from my parents house. It was pretty tumultuous. And then I moved uh in with my aunt, moved out when I was 18 and I moved to the Bay Area.

Okay.

Um and during that time, I would come back obviously and visit my family. Um so my dad continued to go and be in the desert and he had a story one time. Um, and I don't even know what year it was, but he went he was out on the Playa camping by himself and it was late at night and I'm not sure if you've ever been on the Playa when there's no one there,

but it's incredible. It's it a level of quiet um that you'll probably never experience in your life. And like you can hear a bird's wings when they fly past. So,

he was out there and he kept hearing

from across the playa.

Huh.

Exactly. And so he packed up his gear and he said, "I got to find out what's going on." He packed up his gear, he stopped, he drove, he listened, and he came upon, I think, what was one of the first plyaburns. And he, you know, I don't know as far as his interaction with it, but he came back and he told my mother and I, "You won't believe what I saw on the planet. There were, you know, people and they were burning effigy of a man and people were naked." And I mean, he loved it. He used to go out there and

um,

you know, take acid and take mushrooms and really, uh, I grew up with my parents saying, "Whenever you're ready to take mushrooms, Justin, just let us know." I mean, I did mushrooms with my parents regularly. Um, not regularly, but you know, quite a bit. Like quite a few times. Um,

like when you were a teenager or like

Yeah, when I was I was older, probably you know, 19. So, okay. We would the three of us would go out into the desert. I was actually kind of

one of those kids who because it was all there at my fingertips, I said, "No thanks." I I I was kind of a Alex Peak. you know, I just I didn't want to have anything to do with these hippies and so, you know, I move I had moved to the Bay Area. Um, but then so we just kind of blew it off like I said, "Dad, what were you on?" You know, like what did you see all these Well, that sounds crazy.

Sure. It was the ply leprechauns. I know what you're

exactly. And

so, wait. When did you move to the Bay Area? Were this supposed to have been like what the ' 80s or like mid to late 80s or something?

87 89 somewhere in there. I graduated from high school in 1987. So I think Yeah. So somewhere in there. Um and then so I was familiar with Burning Man or at least the initial kind of incarnation of it. Um

did you do like a cacophony society stuff or like

No, just through my father experiencing it.

Oh, okay.

Then um so I'm making my way in the Bay Area. I loved it. I really felt like I could express myself. I felt like racially it was so much more diverse which

Reno was so white at that point.

Yeah. It was it's you know it's way different than it was when I was growing up there. Um but I was working on a music video. I got into film. I was I worked on a film called Rising Sun with Philip Kaufman and that catapulted me into a bunch of other film projects. Um one of which was a music video and I was um doing a set decoration for this music video. and I met this guy named Leo Nash and we hit it off and Leo, you know, he kind of asked me, I said, "I'm from Reno." And he said, "Oh." And he's sort of I don't know if he I'm trying to recall if he told me about, you know, the Burning Man, but um he so we became friends and he said, you know, uh we are having this party at our house. You should come." And at that point, again, I really wish I could remember yours a little bit better, but

I came to Will and Crimson's house as a wee 25year-old and I went to one of the first sort of decompressions. There were maybe 30 or 40 people there. Um, Will, Crimson, Leah, So, um, you know, sort of just the cast of characters that were the core group of of organizers. I did my first whip it. I remember Crimson saying, "Hold it in. Hold it in." So,

pass it on.

Yeah. And then I was at the craft ser the craft service table as it were. for the snack table and started chatting with this man and and told him, you know, I'm I'm here with through Leo and and we were chatting and and it was Larry and I told him about my history and actually growing up in the Black Rock Desert. Well, it turned out and you know this is not anything no no secret, but Larry was really he really loved the Black Rock Desert.

Uhhuh. And I told him my father was an archaeologist and a geologist, that I knew a lot about the area. And Larry was instantly intrigued and instantly like kind of like, I need to, you know, be your friend because I have so many questions. Um, and so Larry and I became friends from that point on.

Um, and he really was looking for advice about the environment. experiment, which I found to be really um cool that he wasn't, you know, just like I didn't really uh I couldn't even conceptualize what Burning Man was at that point. It just kind of seemed like a bigger camping trip. But then cut to the next year, I had become friends with a lot of these people and Leo said, "You've just got to come. You've got to go." 95 I guess. And so I, you know, as a 25-year-old, I remember saying, "Ah, screw it. I'll go." So I threw a couple I remember throwing some khaki shorts and a couple t-shirts, just camping gear, you know, maybe a couple sundresses into my car the middle of the night, no less. And I drove out there. I know that land like the back of my hand. And so I drove out And I and I found the the camp

which was, you know, and I had been invited to camp with Will and Crimson and that whole plan. And uh um Yeah. So there I was. Um I set up my little tent.

What year was that? Was you said 95?

Yeah, 95.

Oh, okay.

Uh I think it was 95. I don't think it was 94. Yeah. And so I'm pretty sure it was 95.

Okay.

So I set up my little tent and the sun rose and you know when you're in a little tent and the sun rises at 6:00 a.m. you have to get up.

You wake up. Oh yeah.

And I stepped open my tent and here walking across the playa was a little person and This little person had little tiny chaps on and nothing else.

Didn't see that when you were camping with your dad.

Never.

Except without the mushrooms. With the mushroom.

And this little person had a regular sized penis. And I And he he looked at me. He said, "Good morning." And he just kind of kept walking with his little chaps on. And I remember thinking, you know, it was just such a mind blowing like wild thing. I of course, as you can probably assume, was um accustomed to abnormal. We my parents had a lot of wild artistic friends. So, yeah, I never saw that little person again, but

um I'm not even sure if that little personist.

I know. Exactly.

And yeah. Then that first year was actually pretty tricky. Uh I remember Will and Crimson sort of sitting there and they were the the guard dogs. They because there was no structure to the city really. I mean maybe a little bit but like I remember there being kind of a formed center but we everyone just camped where they were camping.

Mhm.

There were maybe a few thousand people. And um I remember Will and Crimson, you know, yelling at everyone, "No driving on the Playa. No driving in the Playa." And um to me, I just that wasn't my vibe. That wasn't my jam. So I, you know, I I wasn't like a big rule enforcer or nor did I want to control everything. So I sort of strayed away from them in general. Like I really adore them as friends now and over the years. But

uh so I just remember wandering around and it was a whole group of people that clearly were this group of people that I had already sort of started delving into in the Bay Area. Um as in They were artists. Mostly just artists. Like no one was dressing up intentionally. That's just the way they were. Um there were a few I think you know the first theme camp as it were. This is always kind of argued.

Okay. What would be your vote for the first theme camp? Because there's been

Christmas camp.

Okay. Okay.

And um You know, for me, because that was my first year, it was no, everybody else was just doing their thing. But here, you came ac upon this camp where they had put out um white uh quilt batting on the playa so it looked like snow. And they had these crappy gifts that they'd give you that was like a whole bunch of things kind of glued together. And they were playing horrible Christmas music the whole time and they give you like

fruit cake and eggnog.

Yeah. And it was all curdled and gross and

but Okay, this is one of my questions cuz this was what like uh was it Memorial Day or something or is it was it actually Labor Day?

It was always Labor Day.

It was always Labor Day. Oh, cuz I think Memorial Day was like the the Baker Beach and then when it went to the ply it was Labor Day, right? Yeah. Okay. So, I mean Labor Day like where do you get eggnog from? I mean, are you planning this from like like like nine months before and like I got to buy a bunch of eggnog and put it in my freezer and like freeze it for 9 months. Like

really such a good question. I have no idea where they got all that crappy eggnog. I never drank it.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I know Steuart Mangram had a beef about the first theme camp because he was like, "No, no, no. The first theme camp was was my tiki bar, you know. And then talking to um Miss P, you know, P Seagull, I mean, she was talking about like her and Harley, she was like, "No, no, no." Like we had the first team camp like like when when we came out in like 1990 or something and it was like they was like a bedawin kind of camp thing and they had like this she had made this big like hummus kind of platter, but like it made it look like this like desert scene and like I don't know.

Well, that was before my time.

Yeah.

And those you know Miss P and Steuart and they were all doing stuff, you know, before. Um,

so, okay, this is the information I have about Christmas Camp.

Uh,

yeah.

Uh, well, I have it was 1993.

Oh, I think they came out for a couple years if I I could be wrong.

Yeah. And then Okay. So, so some of the people involved, Peter Dodie, Lisa Archer, Michael Lions,

started by Amanda Marshall, who never went to Burning Man or something.

Yes,

he camped next to Chris Rad Radcliffe, I guess, who uh got really pissed off at them because I guess they were blaring Christmas music the whole time.

Well, there wasn't You have to keep in mind there was no rave camps. There was no one really playing amplified music that much

though. That's the thing I think that you know kids today like they don't understand what it's like but it's just a music festival. It's like it's you know like it's not Coachella, you know, but it's Like yeah, I mean there were a number of years before like the even the first rave camp showed up. Like I think it was like 94 or something like Larry invited a some like rave promoter DJ guy to come. I forget what his name was.

Well, the first rave camp I recall was not even really part of Burning Man. It was uh you'd have to drive a mile or so.

Yeah. Maybe couple miles

out. And I'm not sure who invited those those ravers, but they had a dome and they were playing, you know, dance music and you'd have to take some sort of vehicle out to it. Um, so and it was fun and I remember being topless, you know, I was really different now as well. Um,

Wow. Yeah,

because we were all naked, but we were naked because we It was hot and

and you can be

and I I really that wasn't a stretch for me because I spent so much of my existence out there being naked

but not in front of 2,000 people. So I recall kind of having this a couple things. I recall being a little proprietary and I remember thinking who are all all these freaks in my land.

Like to me, because no one else ever wanted to go out there, it was my land, right?

Mhm.

Um and the Pyudes, of course, they were always first, but um and the and the W show. Um but I had to let go of that, you know. I had to really let go of a lot of things that first year. I had to let go of um a lot of judgment. I had to let go of the land. It was no longer going to be my land

um or a place that was full of peace and serenity and a place that no one wanted to go to. And it was a struggle. I remember a couple nights of that time, you know, we only went out for really three or four days. Like we weren't out there for two weeks.

Yeah. It was like a long weekend back then. Yeah.

Yeah. It was just a long weekend. But

that's interesting. That must have been Yeah. Like just imagine you sitting there like this kind of transformation be like Yeah. Like wait a minute. You know, like this is my private playground. Like what do you like?

Yes. What are you people doing here?

Yeah. You're ruining it.

Yeah. And I was really worried about, you know, the trash and the gas that I saw people dumping on. I mean, they were dumping intentionally. But you know, you're spilling gas caned spills or you're filling I definitely tried to make a point of ex expressing to people this is not a waste land during the winter. The birds migrate here. You know, a massive amount of wildlife comes through this area. Please protect it. Please protect it. So, and at one point I recall going out to the You know, I had to go out to open playa quite often that year just to get that piece back that I knew. And I recall running out to the open playa away from camp and I watched all this trash and all these little bits of plastic fly across the playa.

Wow.

And I went directly to Larry and I said, "Larry, this is not cool. You know, we have to do something about this. You have to do something about this. um that trash is just going to keep on going and it's going to ruin this pristine environment. Um you know I mean it wasn't pristine pristine there were dumps along the side and uh but the open playa itself it just it you know as you know it's so special and so sort of because of me and my father I believe the first trash fence was put up because my dad, you know, at that point, Larry was kind of consulting with my dad as well. They had become friends and um so the first trash fence, which I have mixed feelings about. I was grateful because I felt like it was catching the trash, but also all of a sudden there was this barrier that was keeping people in and out. Um yeah. So, was it the trash fence went up because of their commitment to like uh leaving no trace or or or was it kind of like a a permit stipulation kind of thing for the BLM?

It might have been both, but I, you know, I feel like I was a little part of it at least to

make them aware that, you know, something needs to happen. Um,

well, it's just kind of funny evolution of things as time goes by, you know, I mean nowadays, you know, like people like just entering Brainy Man, they they they read the 10 principles and just like, oh, you know, these were just this is just how it is. You know, this always was such, you know, it's like, no, you know, there was like a many years there where it's like we were kind of evolving along and experimenting and, you know, like like I said, like one part of it, the whole leave no trace thing, it's like it wasn't there from the beginning, you know. I mean I think like definitely I was talking to John Law like uh with with cacophony like leave no trace was definitely one of their kind of like principles you know and they always tried to like whenever they would like use some bunker or some sort of space for a party like they tried to like clean it up and like you know leave it. But um I think when it comes to like going out to the the Black Rock Desert you know I just know some my personal experiences you know like in the beginning you know like like tell the story, but um when we I went in '96, you know, we you know, me and my brother like we we're we're used to camping, right? And so it was like what do you do when you go camping? Like we brought a bunch of firewood and it's like you dig a hole, you make a fire pit,

you know? It's like you have a fire and then what do you do when you leave? It's like, well, you bury it, right? As like, you know, as a good camper, you know? But, you know, now we're like, yeah, no, we just We just we buried our trash on the ply essentially, you know.

Yeah.

You know, it's just like different places have different considerations, you know, it's just not like a a public campground with like a fire ring or circle where it's like you're supposed to do that, you know, like or you dump your your embers here or you know,

embers would be one thing, but you know, it was definitely I don't recall people intentionally leaving their stuff or trash. But

you know what it's like even after three or four days out there and you're hot, you know, you're tired and your food's gone and you have this much water and you're kind of like h you know, what do we do with all this trap? I mean I it was not as intentional as it is now. Um and I you and I but I do think people because it is sort of a blank canvas. It's not sort of a blank. It's totally a blank c canvas out there. Um, I think people were trying I like to think people were trying to clean up.

Yeah.

Um, but it was interesting that first year in that I recall even in my frustration at being all these people being on my land, I recall a spark of absolute absolute and total inspiration and as to you know upping my game in a lot of ways. Upping my game as an artist. Uh I came from an artistic family. Upping my game as a um steward of the land. Upping my game as a um um you know looking at that event as a place to express myself and who do I want to be? What do I want to do? It felt as in the environment it felt completely open and

well horizon expanding one could say

and the environment had already was already safe and comfortable for me and was home. Um, I always kind of laugh when people say, "Welcome home." I've stopped saying, "You have no idea." Like, "This truly is my home." But no need to like tell people. I mean,

you're in my home. God damn it.

Yeah. I've let go of that after 30 something years. 31. I don't know how many years. It's in 95. How many years is that? I don't even know.

Oh god. Yeah.

Well, okay. Well, well, two things. Like one, um,

you said you're 25 and you first I I I think that's kind of like the normal age. Like I think I was like 25 26 like when I went like even like nowadays I don't know I think that's probably kind of like like the general kind of entry point for people like getting into

burning I mean I'm sure there's nowadays

younger people

yeah you know nowadays it's this bigger thing and there's regionals everywhere I think there's people of all ages you like oh going for the first time you know but it seems like like early or mid20s. It's like, you know, it's like I mean, I feel I should look at the census like every year. I remember I was like I went to like a rabbit hole and I was going pouring through all the senses like over all the years and like seemed like the the the the vast like the bulk of the people who go or like the largest cohort I think it's something like 25 to 35. I mean there's always people who go from like there's young people, there's old people, there's people of all ages and it's kind of shifted and changed over the years, you know, but like You know, I think there's always been like like the largest like if you pick like a a 10 year like you know like the 25 to 35 35 to 45 to 55 like I think it's like the 25 to 35 was always kind of in like either the top or the one of the top two you know

that makes sense to me.

Yeah.

A you're kind of at a you're old enough to be able to do all the things. B you have the resources. Hopefully at 25 you have a job. 18. Yeah.

And a car. And

at that point, you know, you're probably maybe expressing yourself more sexually and artistically and all the things or wanting to expand your horizons as a 20 year old, 25

year old.

So, and uh yeah, I have learned so much from Burning Man.

Mhm. Oh, and then the Well, before I get all the One other thing I was talking thinking about um cuz we were saying like oh everybody was was was nude or a lot of people were like topless body painted they they cover themselves in mud and whatever. Um one of the big differences I think between then and now is not just the technology of like cameras you know but also like internet access like like phone like cellular connections. I mean in my experience and like I remember like when they It's like the first like internet access and I remember being so angry people like what are you doing you know like it's like well then people like well some people got to work and I'm like well then don't go to Burning Man like like you know this is a commitment to go out to the middle of nowhere to have no contact like you know and then there would be all these like rumors of like things that would happen and people like cuz nobody really knew and I remember one of the art project I had at my camp was I made this it was called the rumor mill and it was just like a big like uh board and it had like nine different topics and then it has like a plastic sheet over it and then like these pens and and you can like and you could like it was a like read a rimmer like leave a rimmer you know

that's genius.

Yeah. So it would be like politics, sports, like you know disasters you know and so people would just kind of like write stuff and like oh this person died. Oh that person died you know and people would kind of go up to them like oh my god you you like Ronald Reagan died and just are real.

Yeah. And then I remember one year like the Princess Diana like oh Princess Diana died.

Princess Diana remember that

right? You know and then like leaving

and then it was true

like oh that really happened.

Yeah it was.

But I think that's why like so you don't really see as much nudity on the play nowadays is because like there's a camera in in everybody's phone you know and so I think it's enough like nervous people like I remember god was it go to some camp like a whiskey something and they had like a like a pole and they were like, "Oh yeah, come somebody come and and like you know use the pole, you know, do the in stripper pole and nobody would do it and everyone was kind of like looking around at everybody else like you going to do it, you're going to do it, you know, and but I think people back in the day it's like oh yeah, you know, just got to jump up and do it whatever like but now people I think kind of like looking around like is someone going to like you know like tap this. Am I going to be in some underwear on the internet? You know, like

you know, Andy, the irony, too, because you probably experienced this as well going on 96. Initially,

we the motto, the mantra was no spectators.

Mhm.

Remember?

Yep.

So, we were really frowned upon to even take photos or uh there were a few people, Chuck Serino, you know, uh Doug Wellman with came But they were also kind of freaky and so and they were filmmakers and so it's felt a little bit accessible um or you know uh acceptable and it was very much that it was a safe place. Um and I didn't I guess I never thought about that the fact that there are so many cameras now and so many sparkle ponies and so many influencers and you can't really do that stuff anymore without it ending up on the internet. And you know over the years I also never um I was never really taught shame as a kid. I was never taught to um be be ashamed of my body

and so I was taught to express myself. Follow my bliss was my dad's big thing. Follow your bliss. Um, so 95 was that first year for me. Then 96 I um Yeah. So I it's so it it is tricky the brain what the brain does like was that the year Uh, but I then had I guess that first year 95, um, someone said to me, I think it was Robert Burke or somebody said, "You need a project. Everybody needs a project out here." And so they brought me out to Pepe's Lingham and Pepe said, "Oh, yes. Oh, hello Justin. You are of course welcome. You know, get a start putting mud on." And so we had these big buckets the mud and we were slapping mud on this big lingum and I became friends with all the artists that were working on Pepe's opera. Um and then you know watched that lingum burn. Um and then the next year um I was part of the crew and Pepe had a a meeting at his warehouse at Artto and there were a group of us And he had just come back from India and he was telling us I mean he was so full of passion and fervor and he had created this incredible you know adventure and story of Empress Zo who descended from the underworld. And these were all um in kind of an amalgamation of like other myths, creation myths and and stories that he had learned um on his travels down the Ganes and you know he was and we just sat wideeyed and were hookline and sinker like yes Pepe and that is when I met Paradox and Morgan and Tza and um you know Tuan I don't know it was Plan and was he around in Christine Heath and you know all that whole crew. Um and I will never forget during that meeting he talked about finding the empress and in my heart um and this doesn't happen to me that often in life but a voice came to me. I'm almost going to cry cuz it's so powerful and it said you are the empress and I remember kind of fighting it but it was so powerful and so shortly after I came to Pepe and I said Pepe I am your empress and he said oh Justin we shall see you know we I

do you think that okay perhaps we shall see

and and I just kept coming to him. Um, and then I went I was in art school at the time and I was a a metal minor. I majored in film, but I was a metal I was working in metal. And I created this gorgeous crown with flames and jewels. And I brought it to Pepe. He loved, you know, he was such a artist, 150% artist. And he looked at the crown and he said, I said, "Pepe, this is my crown. Do you see? I am your empress." And he said, "Well, well, let's think about this, Justin. You are a harmite, you know, and you will have to get a cock." And I said, "Okay." And he said, "Uh, you know," and then it was really starting to kind of cement itself. And I didn't even know what the spirit which I really truly believe now when I'm working with my higher guide, my spirit guides. But the spirit and my guide was kept pushing me towards this. I'd never kind of done anything like that. Well, I I had done drama a lot in in school. In elementary school, we had this guy Ed Gil White and we had this whole drama troop. So, I was kind of a performer anyways. But so Pepe said, "Okay, you know, and I think he probably brought it to the crew and the crew agreed and then he gave me some money to go to Good Vibrations and get myself a cock. Nothing too big, Justin. It must look natural. So, I went to Good Vibrations and I told them, I'm, you know, of course the the uh general store of sex toys and I said, I need a cock to look like a a strap on to look like a a hermaphrodite. And they of course didn't blink an eye. And they said, Okay.

Well, let's show this this. Here's the selection. Come on in.

Here's your selection of penises, cocks, dildos.

And so, I got this reasonable looking white, you know, um, strap on. And then I progressed to make myself a bra that I wore out of metal that had leather straps. And then I had the strap on and my crown. And I just embodied the character. And that year, um, I came out early and was part of this group of people that were unlike any other humans I'd ever met. Paradox was truly a kind of our, you know, Pepe was of course our leader, but he was kind of doing logistics and art, building the temple. We all built the lingum that year. Um, together we were like thick as thieves. Um, Stephanos was my uh, dark lord, the lord of the under underworld. And we had a goat named Mustaf Mephles who goat.

Yeah, we got a goat. This poor goat. We um, hate uh was another part of the crew and Kate dyed the goat pink. Like I think we rented this goat from some farm nearby and the whole premise was we're going to take the goat up on the stage and the goat um she dyed it pink. She would she was kind of in charge of the goat and we tried to get this goat up on the stage because there was just a little little narrow kind of pia walkway going up to the lingum to this little stage and the goat had nothing to do with it. So, but we kind of rehearsed a little bit. There was the seven deadly sins and there were people dressed as sloth and they were kind of drudging around and there were people dressed as gluttony and they were, you know, um doing their gluttony thing and all the, you know, all the sins. Um, and yeah, then that performance happened and I truly did channel something from the underground. A lot of it felt I mean it went on for hours, first of all, and we chanted and it very much felt like something out of a Heronomous Bosch painting. And it, you know, um, I arrived on a chariot with some Rottweiler dogs carrying me out and I had this, you know, my outfit of the bra and my and I had it it and oh, and my father so my father, you know, I told him I'm I'm doing this performance and he was so proud. mode.

Wow. That's

unlike Right.

Yeah. Really, it's a testament to the unusual nature of my family and I'm so

It's like darling, you picked out a wonderful cock to wear.

Yeah. Not only that, but he came before the performance and Jason Nurelli at that time was painting everyone's bodies, right, with these tribal He was great at it. Um tribal uh designs and and Jason painted part of my body, but my dad said my dad wanted to paint my body for the performance. So, he painted my one of my legs, I think it was my right leg, um I guess the betterawans have a tradition where if you paint your entire one leg, I think it's the right leg, um black, it connects you to the underworld. So, my whole right leg was black and I had all this tribal painting and I just embodied it. Um, and I remember, you know, circling the tower and looking out at the crowd of people and um, Stephanos takes me off of the chariot and takes me to the platform. We get We're kind of going up to the platform and the chaos of it. I mean, you have to keep in mind there's a hundred people all around. There's people dressed like cockroaches in these incredible cockroaches outfits and they're scurrying around. And um Adonna Divine, she was gluttony, I think, and she had a bowl of like blood and somehow she got animal parts and she was like rubbing the blood and eating this thing. There's blood all over her and you know, so Stephanos takes me to the top of the tower and um I am sort of mocking Fellatio with this little cock that I have on the top of the tower and he we're doing this whole performance and and I we didn't realize it but someone had lit the tower. on fire while we were up there.

Yeah.

And I And we were in such a state just this, you know, channeling state of I don't even know how to it's hard to describe it because it was so powerful. And I but I remember Paradox coming up to the side and he said, "Come down. Come down." He was kind of trying to make a part of the performance and then I could see flames lapping up on the side and I was like, "Oh, f***. And so per uh Stephanos and I came down and devil's delight fire tonight and there was like opera singers screaming and it went on that went on for another hour and then I kind of felt like okay this is the time and I let out this wild warrior chant and for some reason it just stopped everything. And I took my crown off and I threw it. So then the lingum was of course burning and I threw it into the fire.

Oh.

And at that point everyone went crazy in a fervor of like demonic, you know, I mean it wasn't really demonic per se, but it was definitely underworld darkness, but it felt like I personally was ascending and coming out of something that was, you know, royalty like out of that into the reality of the world. And then everyone came in and danced around the fire and people were dancing with me and you know it was a night. Um and then After that, Helco burned. So, back in that day as well, there wasn't, you know,

everything.

Yeah. Now, back then, like everything burned. Even people were just like, I don't want to bring all this stuff back with me, so I'm just going to light it on fire.

Yeah. Not as much that year.

Well, later years.

I remember the next year the hay bales. Everyone was lighting those hay bales on fire and tents and

but um 95, you know, we I I remember wandering back to camp and Paradox and we were all kind of just sitting around in a stouper and you're right though, everything was kind of on fire, I guess. Um, and but I looked over and we had made a little hay bale hut for the goat and it was on fire.

Oh no.

And I could hear the goat out there going, you know, and and so I ran out and I pulled off these burning bales of hay

and And the poor goat kind of leapt into my arms and I slept with a goat that night. I brought it into my tent. I don't even know how I slept. I probably didn't sleep. It wasn't, you know, it was an all night endeavor. But um so the wild part really was I wasn't prepared to be royalty.

Yeah. Well, okay, couple of things. Um

yeah,

I always kind of tell people like like Bernie Ban is like one of the few places you can go and be completely sober but you feel like you're tripping.

True.

Right. I mean, and then also I remember like when I was in high school it's like yeah I remember doing some theater and I just remember just like the high of like you know it's like you do a performance and afterwards you're just like yeah we just did a man for all seasons you know you know you're just like and there's just this high. So kind of combining these two you know where you're just like We're doing this performance like at Burning Man and even if that's big if if he were sober, you know, like which I'm sure Pepe was on, you know. I mean, I'm sure there's I don't know. You tell me, you know, if people were like, you know, on anything, you know, but just like just that experience alone was I mean it just be just mindbending.

Mindbending life changing. I didn't really realize how life-changing it would be.

I don't recall Personally, I wasn't into So, I grew up again with a family who was very openly drug

Mhm.

comfortable. And I don't recall being on any drugs. Um,

how did Pepe feel about that? Like would he would he

really We didn't drink in camp. We were there for a reason.

Like it was like a serious endeavor. Like I could see how he'd be like, "No, I don't want you to take away from me."

Yes. And I don't remember him ever making a stand about that. But it was very much we weren't there to party.

We were there to embody this group of, you know, underworld entities and we did um every day had a meeting. We Paradox would lead these chanting wild you know um groups of you know like us together really becoming closer. than I'd ever experienced a group of people coming. We were sleeping together. We were s******* together. We were, you know, sharing everything. We were making goat milk. Stephanos would make goat cheese from the from the goat that we he would cuz he was, you know, he was Greek and so it was so natural. We And it really felt like nothing I'd ever experienced before growing up in Reno. Most of my friends were pretty conservative and um yeah, that amalgam of worlds out there too of having

also just thinking about like I know like in Coyote's book and he's talking about like you know like the interactions with like the local community there in Gerlac and I'm just imagine the person who like you has rented the goat from like I just imagine you know the negotiations so like so so Bessie here you're not going to use her in one of your satanic rituals are you like oh no oh no no No, no, no, no.

I can't even imagine where

because this is like what everybody would imagine was just like you were just a bunch of devil worshippers and you're going out there and you're eating babies doing human sacrifice or whatever they're thinking, you know, like

Yeah. And that after that year, you know, well, let's cut back to so the next day, you know, I remember Begley kind of wandering into camp and people were dropping to their feet and praying to me. Empress, Empress, So, so it was all of a sudden this new empress.

Mhm.

And I had to instantly embody this entity and it changed me as a woman.

It changed me as a human, as a a performer as it pretty much really made me have to have a new security and be an not an example because it was a very different paradigm than like you know an some other empress but it was profound in my world. Um I remember there uh a man Al Hanig is his name and he was riding around on this little bike And it had a seat on the front and he said, "Empress, you know, take your throne." And so he put me on the seat of this bike and rode me around town and people were giving me gifts and again groups of people bowing and it was wild.

It was really wild.

Wow. So then uh after 96 I mean so have you been like every single year or or have you like taken time off and

No, every year.

Wow. Oh,

except for 2016. I had cancer. I had colon cancer.

Oh,

and of course I couldn't go. But you know what I did? I'm so bad. Um

I was here where I am presently and uh at my friend's property and he has a dome. There's a dome. That white thing is a dome.

Oh, okay.

And I was so, you know, sad that I couldn't go. And so what I decided was I would just tell people I was going. And so I took a picture of the someone had posted a picture of the gate in. This is 2016. So and I took a picture of that and I said, "Guess what guys? I decided to come last minute." And then I had my friend take a picture of me in the dome dejing and and you know and I said, "Yeah, I'm DJing at the camp." Right? I didn't specify So people were going around the Playa saying, "Did you hear Justin's on Playa? Have you seen Justin? She's here." Right? I thought, "Why break a streak?" But yeah, I have always said to myself, if the universe opens up a span of time and I have the resources and I have the hutbah, I will go to Burning Man. And every year, um, you know, clearly with a lot of help from friends. Thank you, Marian. Thank you, Larry, thank you. Larry, thank you. Marian, thank you Stephen Raspa. Thank you all the people who have helped make it my home again and have truly brought me back all those years.

So, what have you been doing? Because at the opera, I mean like Pepe did the opera what until like the early 2000s or something, right? Like were you part of the opera or did you kind of transition to other things? Good question. So I the next year I did I was part of the opera. I was a moon queen um and I kind of held this I had a I had um tumble weeds in my hair and I had a big white dress on and a mirror and I would go around and reflect people. Um I wasn't in wasn't an integral part of that opera but I was kind of glad to be just you know a moon queen. And then The next year I thought, you know, I'm ready for something new. I do recall there was a girl, and this was early on, and we all were cruising around the Playa, and there was a girl, and she came out, and she had this little blue dress on, and she said, "I'm Alice in Wonderland." And we all sort of said, "Okay, you know, you can be Alice in Wonderland if you want." And she just played the hole the whole rest of the day. She, you know, would say, "Where's Toto?" And she was just into this character. And I remember kind of being annoyed, but also saying, "Huh, so I could be whatever the hell I want out here in this reality. What do I want to be? What do I want to do?" And it was at that point where I realized like this is truly a platform to express yourself in any way you want to. Um, I have over the years um you know done things that I would have never done in the default world. Um before the arrival of Emperor Zo uh I decided that I was going to promote the event even though you know it was there weren't a lot of events that year but I went into the radio station and I was friends with uh John Hell and we decided that we would do this radio show and we would um there was a little shack that the radio station was in and we would pretend that we were having sex in the the or we were having sex in the radio booth. And so we started out kind of koi and then I would say, "Oh, you you like it like that?" Like you mean right under right under the kneecap like that? And then I you know we kind of went into this thing and we were like I was like completely having an orgasm and Oh my god. Yes. Yes. John and you know, we were and and we kind of were rocking the shack and this was during around 6 or 7 o'clock when everyone's kind of sitting down for dinner at their camps and they're getting ready for the evening. And so we came out and the little shack was completely surrounded with people who wanted to know if we were indeed having sex in there. And you know, I flipped open the door and my hair was all disheveled and I was like, and you know, and so So, it was a big thing. It was pretty funny. I still have people to this day ask me like, "Did you did you really have sex with, you know, but um and then I also decided that we should have a mud wrestling match that year before the arrival of Empress." So, and uh so a friend of mine, we went down the Playa and we did this whole wrestling match thing. Mud wrestling.

So,

wait a minute. Was that okay? I I remember in 96 there was like a bunch of water on the ply and there's a bunch of naked people and then and they're all kind of like rolling around each other and I think I might have even like taken a picture with my little like film camera, you know, whatever. But I just remember just being like, you know, the first time there and just being like, what are all these crazy people did? You know, and I was like, okay. And then I just remember like finding out like months or years later, they be like, oh yeah, a bunch of people got hepatitis.

Did they really? That was I remember that.

I think That was after a rain.

Oh,

and after that mud pit. That wasn't me doing the mud wrestling, but it was just my friend Elizabeth and I who was kind of pissed that I got her into this thing, but we had a fun time. But um

yeah, that was crazy. I remember finding a girl who was clearly way high on drugs and she was like some primordial being stuck in the mud like blah, you know, like mud was And we were kind of like, "This girl's gonna die unless we get her out of the mud." And we picked her out of the mud and someone took care of her. But

yeah,

got I Yeah, I we had just I we had taken um a little field trip.

So, as you you know, I said before, I knew the land like in the back of my hand. I know where all the little springs are.

And we had taken a field trip to one of the hot springs and we'd spent the the day in the cool artisian well. um bathing and getting clean and just relaxing and we came back out after that rain and there was no way in hell I was getting in that mud pit with all those people. Um

yeah, that was a wild scene, wasn't it?

Yeah. So, so nowadays at Bernie man, I mean what are what do you spend your time doing like on the planet now? I mean uh

whatever the hell I want. I have over the years so I you know I I really when when we started having themes. So what I what I've intentionally tried to do was I I've tried to sort of camp with various different camps so that I meet new people um and I experience new things and um I have also the themes um I've taken the themes um like uh family, American family or American dream. Yeah.

That year I decided, well, I'm probably not going to have kids. So,

and there were those shows like 8 Plus 8 on and I thought I'm just going to have a ton of kids out there. And so, I went on Craigslist and got a bunch of free baby s***. Uh a couple strollers, a bunch of baby dolls, and um I recorded baby sounds and I had these strollers and um we would I had a recording of the babies screaming. You never really saw babies out there, right?

Yeah.

So, it was like this kind of weird. We would wheel all our strollers into a bar and I wheel this, you know, a friend of mine, uh my hus gay husband, I because I was going to go to thrift stores and get baby dolls and I I said to him, you know, I'm going to have some babies and he said, said, "Oh, I can give you babies." And I was like, "Honey, you can't give me babies." He said, "No, I can give you babies." His mother had this huge doll collection. And he didn't know what to do with these dolls. Some of those weird dolls, like the kind of from the 70s that were about, you know, two feet tall and had kind of like

they were plastic. Anyways, he gave me maybe 20 dolls.

Wow.

And we took him out to the Playa and like I said, I would wheel him in front of art cars and yell out Please don't kill my baby. And you know, and people were like, "You guys are are night nightmare, you know, nightmare moms." Or I would pretend to or maybe not pretend to be drunk and be like, "Can you take care of my baby? I just can't do it today." And I'd wheel the baby over and leave it and I'd come back and it would have a PBR taped to one hand and some pubic hair drawn on and some, you know, uh, electrical tape pasties. And there was this little punk rock couple who I had them babysit the baby and I came back in and they said she grabbed the baby and she said you are not a fit mother I am going to take this baby from you and I said oh you're right

take the baby

like I got a whole trunk full otherwise don't worry about it like yeah

yeah they brought that baby back every year too

so I feel like my contribution you know I I could talk to you for 10 hours about all the wild fun I've done but

has truly been performance and I have been to be kind of a culture jammer as it were. Um and uh have been part of quite a few different girl gangs out there. Um a girl gang a couple friends of mine started Kimmy Liry and Bin Cortez. A a girl gang called the Space Cowgirls. And we would go around

G giving people fashion violations and we had little bullhorns and we would go into Bianca Smutshack. Remember Bianca Smut Shack?

Yeah. Yeah.

The those camps, the early day camps were just so special.

Um and we would have little bullhorns and we'd see a guy with socks and teas and we we would say that's a fashion violation and we'd give him a little it was all playful, you know. Um and then after that some girl friends and I uh created a girl game called the Dirty Little b******, which we thought was hilarious. And we would we went around with spray cans and we stencled everything to say dirty little b**** on it. And we didn't realize at the time, but it was kind of an empowering thing for a lot of people, you know, to be given the authority to just be a dirty little b****. We all have a dirty little b**** in us. And the irony is that we would stencil, people would say, you know, I'd have them bend over and I'd say, "Okay." And I'd kind of dry hump him a little bit. And I was so lascivious. It was great. So glad I got all that out of my system. And I was s***** and I was just, you know, I just was expressing myself the way that I was, you know, I I

cherish all that now. Um,

and but we the paint we would use just spray paint and they'd say, "Is this what kind of is this spray paint?" I My

Does it wash off?

Yeah. Does it wash off? I'd say, "It's soy based, b****. Bend over." And then we would we would kind of consensually. And then I'd blow it off and let me give you a b******. And I'd blow it. And then it would stick on their skin. I had a girl come to me a couple weeks later at some party afterwards and she said, "You, you." And she said, "Look at my leg." And it was tanned in. Dirty little b**** into her leg.

Oh, that's awesome.

It was awesome. I like that was like we were consensual likeish, you know. I was like those were early days, you know, like

yeah, it was

well also I interviewed Crow a couple of weeks ago, you know, Ranger Crow and um just the whole going through the whole like how like rangers work and this and that and then I would just bring up the whole idea of like like consent and then like like bureau of erotic discourse and stuff like that where I was like it's like okay Hey, so if groups like BED can get to people and kind of moderate their behavior or, you know, at least have them think about consensus and stuff, it's like you can kind of like deal with these things on the front end. So then you guys as rangers don't have to deal with it on the the back and it was like exactly.

Well, and that's how things like the origam

were, you know, have been successful. I don't think people realize you can't just wander into the orgy dome.

Yeah. I've been hearing about this lately. Yeah.

You have you have to go through a whole ring of I've actually never even been in the orgy dome, but

I've only heard of it. Yeah. Yeah.

And you have to have a partner. You have to sign some things like you have to explicitly say that you're not going to go in there and be a non-consensual pervert. Like, you know, most of people

are perverts. Like they're, you know, in the I mean, I consider myself a pervert.

We all have our inner pervert. Sure.

Yeah. We all have our our inner dirty little b****, our inner little pervert. And the glory of Burning Man is that we can go out and express that in a world where sex is so taboo and there's so much scrutiny about it and we're supposed to hide our bodies and hide our sexuality. That's one thing that I was never taught. Um, consequently though, I really because I was given so much liberty with my, you know, I was a virgin till I was 19 because I was like, my family was wasn't like you have to, you know, they didn't set those rules. I set them for myself because of the freedom. But it felt good to see women who had never been called a dirty little b**** or to have a little stencil of a dirty little b**** on them and to be able to, you know, kind of wander out in the world. And

I think I just thought of a new stencil for you. Maybe you could try this year cuz stenciling on people.

Which one?

Consensual pervert.

Oo, that's a good one. That's a super good one.

Like I said, we're all a pervert, but it's consensual, right?

Yes.

Yeah. I think too, back in the day, you know, one thing I I mean, one of the thousand things I've learned about Burning Man is how to navigate a myriad of different energies.

Mh. And one thing that we were all pretty strong at doing is saying no. And you were confronted with people that weren't just perverts, but they were high perverts.

Mhm.

Um

Oh, yeah.

And you had to be able to really, me personally, I guess, stand up for yourself and be able to kind of push, you know, those people out of the way and to be um you know, protect yourself

because there was some weird s*** going on. And I remember, you know, it taught me how to navigate the world at large by

Well, also there was like you had a whole community of people around you too, right? So it's like it wasn't like, oh, I'm just like in a crowd of perverts and no one, you know, something happens, no one's going to help me, you know? It's like you could reasonably assume, you know, it's like, oh no, I'm with a bunch of friends, you know? If something happens, it's like they've got my back.

Yeah.

And believe it or not, you know, after even in a group that small, you all got to know each other, you know, you met two or 300 friends.

Mhm.

Those first few years. And when you did something like Emperor Zo, there was a certain amount of fame that carried through. No one knows who I am now, you know, which is fine,

but um or maybe they do. There's still a few people, but Uh, I am excited to potentially have the kids learn about these early wild times. And I feel like I have I am being interviewed more and more for the old days of Burning Man. And I love that. Um, I want people to know, you know, how primal it was and that in my short, you know, it is short really. 30 years of Burning Man. It has been a complete evolution of a society.

We started with fire and drumming. Remember all the drumming?

Oh yeah. Yeah.

And no generators and and just tents and taking care of each other and um and then you know that first um inkling of oh s***. Um Uh Joe Bulock burned down his tent and everyone was kind of like, "Oh s***, maybe people we shouldn't have as much fire around." And it just kind of evolved from one thing to another. Jim Mason brought out the generators and made the ice cube, the ice

Oh, yeah. the clock

clock

thing,

which was amazing. Um

yeah, I feel like also just the glorious fact that I have been able to encounter and become have intimate relationships with um some sexual and not some not sexual

um with some of the most incredible artists in in the world is something I really savor, you know,

and I make myself out to be a big a big s*****, but I wasn't really that s*****. I just like to think of myself as a little s***. But um

so um I know we're going a little bit long here, but you have some incredible stories, but uh so how has how has like like Bernie band like impacted or influenced you?

I guess we've kind of gone over some of this.

It's impacted me in that um it really has taught me. I remember how to navigate the the world, the default world as we say. Um it has taught me to endure those s***** days out there where it's so dusty and you're like, "Why the f*** am I here?" You call this a vacation. What is, you know, it it it teaches you that maybe the next day is going to be a glorious day and if you sit in your camp with your friends, you know, um doing whippetss and just laughing in a dust storm that eventually it's going to be a better day. Um It's taught me, again, like I said, how to navigate people and their energies. It's taught me, um, that I can pretty much do and express myself however the hell I want to still. Um, it's taught me survival skills that I kind of already had growing up there, but even more so, it's taught me, this last year was a huge intense um growing experience for me because of the fact that uh I had always t been taught, you know, never go on the play when it's raining. That's that was a big rule. Never be on the play. Um, as a kid in Bruno's, you used to see there were pictures Bruno used to have this whole array of pictures of cars that were literally buried on the pla this far from the top of the their hood, you know, they're

And so

being out there and having it rain, um I had a few panic attacks and I um I typically would that what was it 23 when it rained? I was like, I'm out of here. And I had I'd been um heard rumor that it was going to rain and I packed up all my stuff and took off

um before the rain

and and you know was kind of screaming at everyone like we need to get off the pa and everyone's like you're tripping Justin there's no reason to be so frantic and I'm like no you don't understand and so last year it was I got there way early and I was with Andy Grace that's kind of where I met you

and uh I thought to myself you know Justin you're not out here alone anymore um you are with 80,000 people and it was a little little scary, but I also went over to my neighbor's camp and drank rum and we play, you know, there was just there was also this sense of surviving an apocalypse. You know, it felt so apocalyptic and I truly believe that the burners people, it alters them one way or another, but it's also going to make people stronger and able to um survive and accept what's coming at us.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also I think that there's like a finite limit to it like right I mean like the like you said like the rain will stop you know things will get better you know I mean it's just like oh you know it's like the rain's coming it's going to be a horrible thing. It's like yeah but like what I I mean I wasn't there in 23 you know but that's what I heard everyone say just like you know what it's like the rains will stop the ply will dry out. We will get out. I mean it's not like you know like 40 days and 40 nights and like Noah has to come in the ark you know like you know and burners assembled on two by two onto the ark you know

well you realize too you know talking about like the going back to when lady die died and we all were

you realize when you stepping out of Burning Man that year 23 and coming back home and watching the man burn. It was one of the first burns I missed. But watching the man burn from my bed um on YouTube and looking and thinking to myself, "Wow, um people did live through that." And the media takes these things and they just run with it and they make up all these stories about

people are this and that. And they don't realize tenacious burners are. And the fact is that you bring out twice as much food and an extra tent and extra water and extra booze and extra all of it.

Yeah. And it was really like a couple of days extra, right? I mean, it wasn't like they were there for like weeks and weeks, you know. Yeah.

Well, and that that there is a potential for that. I mean, you hear, you know,

worst case scenarios, the armed armed national guard has to come in and or that not armed guard, but national guard or whatever.

Yeah. Has to come in and Um, you know, at this point,

I mean, 23 was probably the worst I mean, that it ever had been, right? I mean, I think there was like a whole I remember watching it here from Hawaii and there were like there was this hurricane that like made its way up and like and it was such an unusual track and I remember seeing it's like, oh, that's going to go up towards the Black Rock Desert, you know, like I mean, maybe with climate change and stuff that will be more frequent, you know, but

yeah, I don't know. I mean,

well, and for me me also the art. I have just so many incredible visuals in my mind of how people are allowed to express themselves and how people are allowed to process trauma.

Mhm.

There um speaking of that hurricane, then the next I think it was the next year there was that um Jeez, I wish I could remember names of pieces, but there was a building built out of all the refues from the hurricane um in the south and there were all these pieces of wood and

you know and this man said I said I you know I always try to talk to the artists and he said this is all stuff we found that had washed up

um from the hurricane and and what about the Ukrainians that come from all over the world I

you know or not all over the world they come from Ukraine but when they made that I'm fine sign.

Yeah.

Out of all the street signs that had been shot up and you know things that just change you as a person.

I

that last year um we had decided to drive around right before the dust storm and

a friend of mine I have a a disabled driving pass and um because of my cancer And I uh I don't have cancer anymore. It's gone. But

complications. I won't get into it. But um

we drove and you know it's amazing to go out there early and to see everything kind of pop up. And we went out in the playa and I looked over and I said, "What's that huge black thing out there?" And so my friend Chris and I drove out to this black thing and it was huge. It was like 60 feet wide and 30 or 40 feet tall. hall and it was a huge black balloon.

And I was standing there looking and this woman belined it out to me and she said, "Who are you? I must know you." I had a flower in my hair and pearls on and she said, "I have a music video. I am in this music video and I'm wearing the pearls and the flower." And I said, "Are you from the Ukraine?" And she said, "Yes, this is our piece." And then it dawned on me, big black cloud. This isn't just a big black balloon. This is a big black cloud

and this is what they live under.

Yeah. Wow.

So, we instantly fell in love. Um, she told me stories of her son and the bombs and living in the Ukraine that's was just being systematically destroyed. And I, you know, of course we hear about the war, but to hear intimate stories from another human being This is one was so powerful. When I was done, I took off my flower. I said, "This is your flower." You know, and she got my WhatsApp information. And the next day, I got the most profound message from her. Of course, the storm hit maybe an hour after we were there,

and it destroyed this big black cloud.

It ripped it off its, you know, I remember thinking, "It's not really staked down very well, but you know, those winds came up and it was gone."

Mhm.

And she sent me a message and a little video and she said, "I hope you are well." She said, "You know, um, our camp unfortunately was destroyed. It was like an apocalypse." And she said, "And in the whole damn time I have your flower in my hair and there's a video of her holding her camp stakes, you know, and she's got this flower in her hair.

Wow.

We haven't even spoken about gifting.

And the fact that in this world we're always being taken from and we're always being asked to to, you know, um we're always being uh have to pay for our food and have to pay for this

transaction. Yeah.

Yeah. It's very transactional. Um and not out there every someone wants to give to you. You know,

it's about come have some fresh lemonade, have this and

those little gifts um

give me hope in humanity. And I think not to mention the gift of seeing someone's face and we have we are losing that.

We're losing

um talking to each other's faces.

Oh, yeah.

And experiencing people, you know, sitting around talking and I don't know if you've noticed this, but the level and the and the type of laughter you hear on the Playa is drastically different than any laughter and joy that you in the default world. People are genuinely like, you know, most of the time having the time of their lives and laughing and sharing talking story as they say in Hawaii. Um,

and we need that that I look to Burning Man as to what's next in our world. You know, we went from fire and burning and drumming to um LEDs and generators and motor homes and blinky lights and um you know, not just walking around the player or biking around the Playa, all of a sudden it was too big. So, we had to have art cars. So, you know, the irony that in this world now we are dealing with cars as being a big problem. You know, I mean, there's a lot to be said and looked at as the evolution of our our, you know, race and our us as a people. Mhm.

So,

yeah. All right. Well, I think we've gone about an hour and a half. This has been amazing. Well, thank you very much.

You are so welcome. You know, I can talk.

Yeah. Well,

something I I am thinking about is uh having some of my guests come back on for a round two because it's definitely I remember like John Law at two at two hours. I was like, "Okay, okay, okay. I'm not Joe Rogan. When I back home for three hours.

I would love it. And uh Andy Grace actually is doing interviews as well and she did the same thing. She said Justin, you know, she interviewed me for a couple hours and then she said, I I haven't had enough. So I came back for another round

and talked more story about all the things. And

you know, it's hard to encapsulate 30 years of Burning Man and hour and a half. And I'm sure there will be other stories and

that come up that I, you know, But yeah, I'd love to. That would be really fun.

Oh, awesome. Well, thank you so much.

My pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this, Andy. Thank you for bringing these stories to the world and to people who are interested and and uh you know, exposing so much of of the the people that have made it and made it what it is. So, I appreciate you.

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