EP 72 Jen Reed

Episode 72 with Jen Reed is out now! Meet Jen Reed, who recounts her transformative evolution from a curious observer to a professional fabricator and artist within the Burning Man community. Her story begins with Reed’s spiritual calling after watching a 2009 documentary, leading her to join an architecture-focused camp where she realized she needed technical mastery to achieve her creative visions. She discusses the intentional decade-long hiatus she took to acquire formal skills in welding and fabrication, a journey of self-actualization that eventually allowed her to return to the desert as a lead artist and mentor. Central to her story are themes of communal support, the "Burning Man University" education, and the symbolic "forging" of identity through the desert’s harsh environment. She describes how the festival functions as a map for personal empowerment, bridging the gap between imaginative passion and tangible professional output.

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcast and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Which Andy? That Andy. Today our guest is Jen Reed. Welcome, Jen.

Hey, Yeah. So, what was what got you to go to Birding Man? Like, how did you first hear about it?

Oh gosh, I love this. So, it was 2009 and um I was watching a documentary. Uh it's so funny. I was I had just freshly moved to California and you know, I was in my early 20s and I saw this documentary and it felt kind of grassroots. boots. It was on this alternative news channel called Channel One. And there's this woman on screen describing why she went to Burning Man and defining what she thought Burning Man was. Because, you know, we all have our different definitions of what it really is. And while I was listening to her monologue, she was in the backstage of some troop show. She was putting on her clown makeup. There was trapeze behind her and she's explaining herself. And as she's describing this thing that I had no reference for, never been to a festival, nothing. I just thought to myself, I'm supposed to go to that. Whatever she's describing, I'm going to that. And it was actually Athena Deos who was talking.

Oh, you know Athena?

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was um

God, I have to look it up now. I was like, what episode was it? But I think she was like earlier last year.

Oh, she's such an extraordinary human and such a huge part of the makeup of Burning Man, especially when you're talking about years behind and

and um it was just so So cool because I saw that video of her describing why she was there and I knew I have to go to that. I went into my mom's kitchen and I declared I'm going to Burning Man. And my mom exactly. She said, "What's that?" And her boyfriend at the time said, "I think it's a rave." And I looked at him. I said, "I think it might be, but I think it's more than that." Like that's all I knew. I said, "I might be true." And I'd never been to a rave.

He said, "But I think there's more to it." And I looked at her and I said, "So, going like I wasn't asking permission. I was declaring.

You said you were like in your 20s.

I was 20, maybe about to turn 21. So, you know, my mom still was concerned,

protective,

protective. Like, what is this you're talking about? And um and it was really great because I was living in LA and I just freshly moved there. And so, obviously there's a lot of burners in California. There's a lot of community all throughout the West Coast. It was like the declaration opened up the floodgates because Really soon after seeing that documentary, I met some burners at the downtown LA artwalk and I expressed to them, "Oh, I want to go to that." And they instantly took me under their wing and I was there.

Did you look for them or you just kind of just happened upon them?

No, I happened upon them at an art walk. Obviously in California, you're only a stone store away from any burner, you know, and if anyone is talking about it, I was interested. I was listening for clues in the world, right? So

yeah. So as soon as I got that first opportunity, you know, they put their claws into me and I was their virgin that year and I was within seeing that documentary, I was on Playa within the year.

Oh, really? So you your first year 2009 like you just

uh 2010 is when I finally made it. So it's kind of like that little crossover.

Oh wow.

Yeah. 2010 was my first year.

I think it's also one of those things where it's like once you kind become like aware of something and then you just see it everywhere.

Yes.

Yes. Like when you buy your car you see that car on the road tons of times right after.

Yeah. Or it's like, you ever notice that this person or friend of ours like does this weird annoying take? You're like, huh? And then

and then you notice, wait, do I have it? You're like, oh my god. Like, yeah. Yeah. But then it was just like, oh, there's these people got burners in the world and they're all around us. It's like

they're all around us.

They are. And then like now I see them.

I actually have a lot in common with them. And maybe that's why I thought that when I saw the documentary, I just didn't know I had this thing in common with them. This likeity.

How did you get to the play? Like did you just kind of like do your own solo adventure or did you kind of like hook up with a group of people?

Yeah, that group of people I met at the, you know, in Los Angeles. They already had a camp. They already had a party they threw every year to raise money for their camp. So, I just got into the fold with them. They threw this really amazing underground Halloween party in Los Angeles and it was hosted at Zorian Ranch and I became a part of that crew and it was hosted at multiple different locations and the name of our camp was Destination Unknown. And Destination, we would raise upwards, you know, to $10,000 for the year by throwing a killer party. And this party was so much fun. And even just throwing, you know, smaller events with this crew, I was getting a taste of the burner way of life where we would have a good time together. We would raise money together. We would do bake off sales together. We would do underground, you know, raves and, you know, make money on the bar together. There so many different ways to get us to Playa. And I'm really grateful for that crew because that first year taught me you don't just have to always pay a bunch of things out of pocket. Sometimes you can work your way into getting there.

So I didn't actually pay personally for a couple years. I just did a lot of labor in exchange for getting there.

Well, how big was the camp? Like was it just a small group of people or

small group of people under 20 people?

A lot of them. It was a great size and a lot of of them were SCARK graduates. A lot of them were architecture students who were now architects.

So their approach to burning was really rooted in the space they built, the art they brought. Um very dedicated small group of talented architects. And another thing was I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. You know, I just turned 21. I was going to turn 22 soon. And I just felt like getting this exposure because I was a very mathrained, you know, creative t talented young kid,

but I didn't want to get, you know, into a box or to a career. I felt so scared to make a choice. And I feel like Burner showed me there's so many ways to have a professional output from this medium, right? Yeah.

The great group of kids that took me and showed me the way

and taught me how to pretty much build everything myself.

So there was the the group that you went with like pretty much like a bunch of other 20 somethings like you're all kind of in the or

Good question. Majority of them were in their 30s. mid-30s, late 30s. It's It's funny cuz I'm 38 now and I was thinking recently, I'm the same age they were when they took me, you know? I was their young 20something friend who didn't have a job, who just needed a chance, you know?

And I feel like I'm often in that position now because my route to the playa is much simpler now. And it's almost an easy go. And there's a few people I've brought as, you know, it's just the way of life. You know, we bring virgins every year. And I'm thinking like Yeah, I'm exactly where they were now.

So, it's the kind of like the cycle of Bernie.

It's a cycle. Yeah.

Yeah. So, get there.

And then you help people get there.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

So, what did you think? I mean, cuz you you you saw the documentary, you like hanging out with their friends. I'm sure everyone's like talking your ear off, you know, but then like once you actually hit the play for the first time, it like I mean

I mean had you ever been like even like been to the desert before?

Yeah. Yeah, that's another good question. I had spent some time in the desert because my dad's mother, she lived in India Hills, like close to Coachella Valley for a very long time. India Wells, you know, it's like a retirement community outside of Palm Springs. Now, Palm Springs has drastically changed since that festival's been out there, but it's mostly retirement community. So, the only experience I had with the desert was old people. And it's so funny, not that Burning Man without Brady B. Same thing,

right? But the only experiences I had were, you know, in retirement community settings, very quiet, you know, very reserved. And and it's so funny because that same grandmother, she used to go to Woodstock, you know, she went to high school with Jimmyi Hendris. My grandmother has a history.

Wow.

And I think that deep down I was repeating her history just not knowing it because she's so sober and straightedge and different now. Yeah. Yeah. Cycle like

the same cycle, right? It's like things change, we evolve, but the root is still there. And I feel like when I went to Burning Man the first time, it reminded me a lot of when I was a kid going to Renfair, you know, my dad would take me to things like Renaissance Fair.

And as a kid, I knew I belonged there, too. I was surrounded by freaks, by performance, by outfits. I was like, "Oh, man. Adults are playing dress up and they're giving their all and they love doing this year round." Oh, I love love these adults.

Was it like the particular like expression or or just like the fact that like people were like, "Oh, they have the freedom to like do something different."

I think it's more about the freedom to do something different because obviously we we're programmed to, you know, take certain routes in life.

So, anytime you see someone jamming up that idea, someone counterculture always excited me. And then couple that with and they have fun outfits on that definitely entices interest, right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, they're having fun, you know, but I mean,

they're having fun.

Yeah. But I don't know. I often talk with a lot of guests about like um I don't know, Bernie man like the whole uh like radical self-expression part of it, you know, it's it becomes this kind of this sandbox where it's like you can kind of like you like you cross that line, you draw the line in the sand, you cross over it, you're just like, "Okay, here's somewhere different like I can I can try new things on, you know? I mean, I've had guests who are just like, I I'll try on a new gender, you know? I'll try like a new personality, like new outfits, like you people who just like, oh, like I didn't think I was an artist at all, you know? It's like I was just an accountant or

Yeah. It feels like an invitation. It feels like a very ceremonial invitation to not only try something but be supported in it,

right? And that does feel rare to not only get the chance to spread your wings, but also

you're not being judged.

You're Maybe there's a guarantee you don't get shot down.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's no one out there in the play of just being like, "No, you you can't do that."

Yes. Except for the clowns. That's a different story.

The clowns.

Something I love about the clowns that Well, something I do love about Burning Man in general is that it's not even just hippie- dippy. It's not even just all positivity. There's clowns out there causing havoc. There's punk rockers out there. you know, banging their heads and not saying good morning to you. I love that every type of human is given that same freedom to express themselves. It's not all, hey, express yourself and high five. Some of it's express yourself and get out of my way,

which is balance,

clearly. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, also I mean I mean also, how would you see like because you you first started going in 2010. I um

Yeah, 2010.

Like so what now? 16 years later. I mean, have you been going consistently the whole time or taking time off.

That's another good question because it greatly affects who I think I am as a burner. I took a whole 10 years off in between.

I burned for three years straight,

you know, and I was, you know, 21, 22, 23, 24. I was in that age group the first time I went. So transformative, but I also instantly recognized what skill sets were required to be successful out there or to at least enjoy yourself to the fullest. And like we were talking about the freedom to express yourself the way I wanted to express myself about there. I needed some time to get stronger to be able to reach that height.

So, I took some I took some time off and you know there were some huge art pieces on the Playa that really inspired me and without any prior understanding I'd look at those giant pieces and say I'm going to be able to build you. I could do that. I don't know how I'm going to be able to do that but I can do that. And that took me away for 10 years and I became a professional fabricator. I went to architecture school. Really?

Yeah. I took some years off. I didn't even go to another festival. I didn't party anymore. I said, if I'm going to be able to become a big artist, I need to get the skill sets so I can go meet my peers out there and actually have some fun. And I always told myself that I would go back, but every year I wasn't making it. You know, it just it wasn't working out. And a lot of being able to go out there is everything has to conspire around you for it to work. And for years I just couldn't go. I couldn't make it. And I always said to myself, well, when I do make it out there, I'll be making art. And then in 2022, I was working on a fashion show in New York. And, you know, I'd since left California. I had been professional fabricator for more than 10 years at that point. And I was working on a stage for a fashion designer for couture week. And someone came up to me. We're chatting. He's asking me questions of like how I came to be like this. You know, you're a a young black woman on a really important build. How'd you get this job? I was like, well, it all started with Burning Man. He's like, "Oh, you go to Burning Man? You know, my friend is bringing art out there this year and she's looking for black fabricators. Can I give her your information?"

I was like, "Of course you can." That was Aaron Douglas.

Aaron Douglas. Yeah.

So, in 2022,

she was taking a leap of faith and bringing her f first big art piece.

Now, I didn't know you could bring big art and not be a fabricator. I thought you had to know how to build. You had to know how to weld. You had to be a carpenter, right? That's my assumption. And then she showed me that you could really just have an idea. If you can ignite your community to back you and it's not just about finances, it's just really about believing in your vision.

The playa will provide and get you there. So,

same way that she didn't know how to build, she put the call out looking for builders that she could see herself in. And that's how I was found. So, I had a call with her and she asked me, she's like, you know, are you willing to go back to Burning Man after 10 years away? I said, this is the reason I'll go back. Like, you gave me a reason.

Yeah. It's amazing to me that like I' I've actually never heard anyone like just your story. I just was like, I know what I want to do and I'm going to go and I'm going to develop these skills and I'm only going to come back like when I can do it. Like cuz most other people like I think 90% of the projects that like going to apply it, it's like pure passion or or or 90% of these like it's it's like do you know how to do this? No. But I have this vision and it's going to happen and yeah and other people like help you happen. So I think it's just interesting. I I don't think I've really heard any other person who's just been like when I'm ready and and I have the skills I will come back.

That's my karate kid moment, right? I went to wax on wax off for a good decade and came back and I was ready to fight. And

so you didn't fake it until you made it.

I didn't. And you know what's so beautiful about that element on Playa where you can fake it till you make it.

There's still parts of me that don't know what the f*** I'm doing. And thankfully the playa fills in that gaps.

I'm surrounded by engineers, by welders, by professionals who have taught me so much in a small amount of time.

Yeah.

And we don't ever know everything. Every year I'm taking on new skill sets.

Well, also don't you think that like in some way like maybe you are actually that competent, but you just don't realize it.

Yeah. The there's definitely an element of not knowing how strong I can be and needing the example to show me what I'm made of.

And I would also like to thank my original camp, you know, destination. I was the I was with them for two years and then I was with these other folks from LA for a year. Um it was with the loft called abundant sugar and another artist was in that camp. His name is Patrick Shern. And Patrick Shern has a lot of big big scul not only at Burning Man, but at Coachella and inside of, you know, Walt Disney Concert Hall.

Yeah.

Camping with these people was a blessing cuz I wasn't given the opportunity to think I could fake it till I made it. I was instantly in the company of people who were really building things from scratch, actual architects, already established artists.

So camping with them my first three years made me think, oh, I got to go work for this. So it probably just helped me in the long run that that's the kind of burner I was with, you know. But

And how did they like treat you? Did were they were they were they like like, you know, just like No, no, no, Jen. It's just like we have more confidence that you have in yourself. It's like you can do this.

No, I didn't get that at all. Really? And that's part of the beauty is

because they were all so established and I was the only pipsqueak. It felt like I often was demoted to mooping. I was often demoted to doing the most entry levelvel stuff. And that's fine. We all got a wax on, wax off. But I don't think that that group of people saw what I saw. They saw me as someone who was like nice little volunteer, but I saw myself as a project lead. And I think that

my distaste for not being given more opportunities forced me to go learn to give myself opportunities.

Ah, okay.

Also, you know, the the makeup for black burners has changed out there as well. You know, when I first went, I could count on one one hand how many black people I interacted with the entire week.

Mhm.

So, when Aaron called me, she wasn't just touching on my desire to make big art. She was also touching on my need for belonging

and my need for people to be on the same page with me

and that community aspect. Even though I'm still friends with some of these people, I always kind of felt like an odd man out for more than just being young. And so when Aaron gave me the opportunity to meet a large group of black burners who were like me, you know, growing up a black alternative kid,

even though I was surrounded by artists growing up, I was still different.

Even though I have an all black family, I'm still different

because I'm creative. Because I'm a little weirdo because I like to dress up, you know, for Renfair. You know,

we're where our own subset.

So like at like Thanksgiving or like you're getting together with family and stuff, it's like are you the kind like Oh yeah, that's Jen. That's

that's the artist.

She's the artist one. Yeah,

I am the artist one. The beauty is my family loves me and they they do treat me well and they celebrate who I am. But it's also there's a layer of I'm the only one amongst my my cousins who doesn't have the same level of education as everyone else. You know, everyone in my families gets master's degrees and that's lovely for them and they do really great things. I'm surrounded by doctors and lawyers and diplomats. So being the artist is a little weird in my family. Um

yeah, I mean maybe you didn't get some piece of paper or a diploma or whatever, but I mean you can look at it as like a multi-year education.

Oh, I've explained and they all understand. It's so cute how family members come to understand what it is we do out there

because I've explained that this was a huge part of my education that is irreplaceable. I went to Bernie university. Do you understand? Like

not only have I graduated from Burning Man University, I've also accomplished what I first set out, which is I now bring big art to the Playa. And this is actually the first year that I received the Honoraria Arts Grant. And the full circle moment has arrived where I've been able to show through example that the pathway that I chose that Bernie man gifted me was the right pathway. It was one where I got some education, I got some experience, and then I threw myself into the fire to be forged. And I think that the ability to allow the fire to forge you and burn away the impurities does get you there faster than trying to do it all right with the paper. And that's why people can accomplish things purely on passion out there. Because when you forge that in the fire, you get this beautiful gemstone at the end, right, of like here's pure passion and this is what comes it.

Yeah.

Um,

and how does that translate like back into the rest of the world? Because it's like, oh yeah, I go off in the desert and I have my friends and I have this experience and and they believe in me and I and I I make these projects and I do these things, but it's like when you come back to what people call the default world, you know, I mean I mean if you're talking to non-burners, I mean, does it does it translate where you just kind like I'm a fabricator or no, I can do this. It's like I've been to Burning Man I and you know, show them your portfolio.

I think it rarely translates. Um, often I'm having to help translate how these things connect or disconnect.

Um, you know, I'll use my father for example. My dad is super proud of me and he's excited about everything I do, but yet he's still trying to wrap his head around what the f is going on out there, right? And then when I go to certain jobs, you know, some places in the default world look down on Burning Man. art, you know, especially when we're talking about the fine art world.

Um, you know, how money is raised, how pieces are, you know, sold to the city or even how they get prioritized or chosen. All of these are hot button topics

that don't always translate. You know, I worked really hard to climb up the ladder in the Burning Man art world, but that doesn't mean I've done the same work and being able to get my artwork into a public park. Um, I've built some bridges and I do believe will get to that point soon.

But I'm also learning that

those arts commissions don't always want to choose something that went to Burning Man. Sometimes they want distance from that idea.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it might also depend on where you are too because I think, you know, if it's like middle of Oklahoma or something, people just like, you mean that devil worshiing place,

right? It geographics matter.

Yeah. In San Francisco, they'd probably be like, oh yeah, show us what you got. Right. Like

Yes. And that leads to why I'm here often. I split my time between New York and San Francisco and by coastal half and half because San Francisco not only is welcoming to these art projects, but the community is here. So, like we were saying before about filling the gaps, anything I don't know, there's a professional here in the city

who knows what I don't know. And the community is within the arms reach here. Um, so yeah, San Francisco very friendly to burners and to burning man art. Even though I will tell you the truth, Even San Francisco gets push back about how much Burning Man art floods the city and it's beautiful art and it's being chosen under the same scrutiny, under the same process, but Burning Man itself is a hot button topic and it's always something that I don't I don't always lead with that fact.

You know, my art in particular is not made just for the playa. My art is made to be placed anywhere. Um, and I made sure of that knowing that I could end up stuck in one category

if I wasn't aware.

So, is New York kind of similar to San Francisco? I mean, like you said, like Bernie man, like the whole Bernie man world, like is it uh kind of well known or

I would say it's well known, but New York is so diverse

that only 50% of the time, if I were to bring up Bernie man, does the person actually know what I'm talking about in New York.

Really?

About half of the time I'm explaining from scratch. What is this thing I'm talking about? Whereas in San Francisco, I don't I don't even have to explain.

Wow.

If anything, they grew up around it and they know everything they need to know.

They're very thick here in LA. Yeah.

Right. And the communities are different. You know, every regional has its own energy based on the people who live there. Because when I started, I was in LA and that group of regional burners is very different from San Diego burners. It's very different from Colorado burners. And I've gone to different events in different places and noticed Yeah. Each one of these communities has a different flavor and a different way of communicating.

Yeah.

And so San Francisco is kind of like the core, right?

But even with like within New York, I mean there's the city, then there's upstate, right?

Mhm. And then there's Brooklyn. A completely different energy.

Oh yeah. What? Manhattan versus Brooklyn.

Oh yeah. Completely different. Completely different. So

any Long Island burners? I

I haven't met them.

I don't know.

I don't know. Wow. Yeah. Um, no, because I know like in upstate New York, upstate there's what a portal burn. I mean, there's a couple of different ones, right? But like, but also like in the city, it's probably more just like like decompressions because like there's there's no like desert in the middle of the city,

right? Or they make their own version of it. And that's why I think that regionals it's really important to remain detached when going to any kind of regional event and just be to spend time with like-minded people and not hope for the same experience because it's never going to be the same experience.

No,

but some regions have come up with really great gatherings like in San Diego they have something called Utopia.

Great camp out event, you know, and then um

so tell me about Utopia.

You know, there's what's cool about Utopia is that San Diego Burners are really laid-back group, you know, I know a little handful of people who live down there and they love to have a good time. They love a good dance party and I've never really known many of them to bring art projects or to do anything pretty strenuous on Playa, but man, can they throw a solid party,

you know? So, their regional is a good time and everyone loves it,

you know. And then I also recently went to um a decom in San Francisco at the Loom

and everyone there was saying it. This was the best decom ever. San Francisco hasn't seen a decom like this in forever. And what was it? It was because there was a few bad ones right before this one, you know. So, they were just so excited to have a good one. And I feel like we're just grateful to gather and to have a reason to check in, you know, in between time.

Um, but all of them are just so different. And I think as long as we are open-minded, they can all be fun.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, how big is Utopia? Like, and is that it's is it like out in the country somewhere or

No, it's like closer to the beach, you know, so that's not really Okay.

You know, And it's not very big. It's like under 300 people.

Um

kind of nice size actually. Yeah.

Well, it is a nice size. You know, it's funny because LIIB, which you know is happening right now. You know, I think today might maybe today is like the height of it and they're going to go into Monday.

LIIB Lightning in a Bottle.

Oh, Lightning B. Yeah.

Lovely festival. That's not a decom. It's not a regional, but it feels like one because the people who throw it that do Lab, they're burners. They're burners and they build their whole ethos off the backs of the same ideas which give it the same feeling. You know, you're still leaving no trace and there's all this beautiful performance and clowning happening. It's not just about the DJ set, it's about the performance artist. So, there's all these great staged moments and there's also rogue moments of these troops in these matching outfits who are all acting out a scene and you don't even know that you're watching a play before your eyes. Li is a gorgeous festival and it started out something small. It was just a birthday party when they started. I think that was about 20 years ago.

Now I think they get up to 10,000 people.

Wow.

You know, it happens like that whenever everyone gets went into such a great event that has the principles intact and it's fun and creative.

Yeah. I think it's also important to just kind of more just like quality over quantity because so many times people are just kind of like, "Yeah, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger." You know, I think Sometimes like that's where things at Burning Man kind of go wrong. I don't know. I look at it like it's like bigger bigger bigger but and then bust you know like

yeah that's just the nature of numbers right like you just keep growing growing growing growing.

Eventually there's going to be a toppling over moment.

So you know so you took 10 years off and Aaron got you to come back.

She did 2022.

2022. God was that I actually took 13 years off.

So you understand Yeah, that's why I was like, "Oh, I totally get it." Yeah. Um, so my last year was, was it 2011 or something? That was the first year it sold out. And then the first year back was 24. That was the first year it didn't sell out.

I was there for both of those years. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just like that whole middle part where it's like it's hard to get tickets and is, you know, lotteryies and this.

That was a wild time, right? Yeah. We missed the worst of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Now it's So

I have a question for you then since we have a similar experience.

When I was gone during those 10 years, I would have vivid dreams that I was back there. Did that happen to you? Did you dream about the pio while you were gone?

Uh I think it was not too much, but was it was kind of the realm of like you know those dreams you have where it's like you're showing up to class and then like this is the final exam and you're just like I haven't been to a single class all semester. You know, it was kind of like it's like I'm on the playa and then they're just like okay you're here at birdie man we're just like but I didn't pack anything like I don't have a tent and like I don't have any water like

you would instantly go into your checklist like wait if I'm here that means I need to have done a lot of work

also just I just remember this dream was just like the overwhelming like shame of you know it was just like but I've been to Brady B so many times like how could I possibly do this it's like I'm an idiot

right okay I can see that stress dream kind of thing, you know, it's like just you're on the play and you have nothing and it's all your fault. They're like, "No,

kid. You survive. Will the player provide?"

I mean, the player will provide.

Of course. Of course.

No, it's funny cuz like I've talked to various people about like, you know, just the various like nuts and bolts of planning and this and that and we're talking about like like food and like years ago it's like we would bring like coolers of all fresh food and we'd cook things like now I'm like I bring the dehydrated camping food and you know you just kind of like heat up some water and like put it in like whatever you know it's just kind of like ah just like easy stuff but like

I always tell talk people about like I have this idea that like I would love to go to Bernie man and only bring the amount of food that I'm actually going to eat.

So but everyone would think you're insane cuz you're just like really you're just going to eat like this like like each day is like two apples and you know, like whatever. Cuz I mean, there's also like um what I call foraging where just let's just like let's just go wander around.

Yes. Let's go see what we can come back with in our

Yeah. Yeah.

Hamburgers.

Oh, wow. Pasta.

Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Foraging is really fun out there. Also, it's really fun to dial in your sciences. Like dial in your coffee science, dial in your food science. Just getting into each little program that supports your survival is also the fun. part, right? We learned a lot in those dialing ends of the measurements of things.

So, you went back in 22.

22.

I heard that was the hot year, right?

That's what they say. I don't remember it being that hot. I will I will admit I'm from the south. I, you know, grew up in Louisiana and Texas, so maybe it wasn't as bad for me individually because I have no memory of it being that bad.

Yeah. I mean, I remember years of Yeah. It's being just absurdly hot and and it's funny because now people like you have to have air conditioner in your tent. And I'm like after all these years gone, I'm like, what's happened to people? Like they've got their stuff like an air conditioner in your tent. Like are you insane? You know, like

you know how much energy that uses? Like how much we're talking about gas burning. Like

they've gone super luxury at burn and

as an OG burner. I like to consider myself an OG burner starting in 2010.

I do have that that old way of doing things. You know, I I still have not done an RV,

you know. I That was going to the next question. Tent or RV? Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, I am definitely a tent girl. Now, I'm not anti-RV. I don't want anyone to jump on me now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying I have not wanted it.

I love being in a tent. I love the freedom of packing up and not having to worry about getting anything serviced. I also love

Yeah,

a regular bike. Kill me. I'm sorry. I love a regular bike. I know ebikes are the wave now. And I have been on an ebike and it was a good time. It got me there fast, but there's just something to using the beach cruiser with the fat tires and, you know, biking two miles to 5 miles a day.

Honestly, like I just I just hoof it everywhere.

Hoofing it is all so fun.

Yeah. Yeah,

it's all so fun. And um

I think it also depends what you're doing, too.

I I think that you're connecting more when you're moving slower.

Yeah.

So So I'm meeting neighbors. I get to have have those moments where I'm foraging, like you said, if I'm on foot or on a regular bike, if I'm zooming, you know, too fast, I'm missing out

on what what's happening on that street.

So, you go back in 22 and you're helping out Aaron with her project like um

uh did you camp with her and those guys or or

Yeah. And and that ties in what we're talking about luxury. That was my first time ever being in a luxury camp was with her.

Oh,

I was so used to doing it, you know, the regular way.

Mhm.

And then when she brought me and her team, we had an art support camp, vertical camp. You ever heard of vertical?

No.

They build a tower out of scaffolding, and then they wrap it in shade cloth, and so they basically add more housing to their camp for people who don't bring tents, and everybody gets a cube in it, and then it becomes a focal point for the rest of the playa because it's in the very back of the outer ring.

So, you can climb the tower and see the entire city from the top.

And I had a cute little, you know, vestibule built inside of there one of the years. But I joined Camp Vertical and they had hot showers. They had private, you know, echoic toilets. They had a chef. I was like, "Whoa,

whoa,

whoa." Yeah,

a chef.

What's going on here?

Hot. I was like, "Hot showers? I didn't even know showers could be hot out there."

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I camped with them in 22. and 23 and 24. Yeah. And I got my taste of luxury.

So, uh, have you So, is you said like you got a, um, an honorarium to do like your art on the playa this year? That's right.

Is this And you said this is the first year. Is this the first year that you're bringing your art to the Playa?

Last year is the first year I brought something.

Okay.

This year is the first year I was given the grant from the org.

So, what did you bring last year? So, it's such a fun story. I've got this concept where I want to bring these items year after year and build on them and add to them as time goes by.

So, the name is compost playground.

And I want you to just imagine this. Imagine for a moment that you are an earthworm and you're crawling through the playa and you happen upon some compost. As an earthworm, if you found some compost, instantly you've hit the jackpot. You're going to climb inside. You're going to climb on top of. So, I'm building playground pieces that are giant compostable food. So, the first item is an apple core. An apple you've already eaten. And it's just giant. It's 12 feet by 16 feet.

Wow.

And it's a jungle gym that looks like an apple that's already been eaten. And I have been working on this concept I've got a about five to eight items designed and ready to go. And last year I applied for honoraria a few times and didn't get it. And last year when I didn't get it, I honestly I just I prayed about it for a second. I talked about I talked about it with people I trusted. I'd done a lot of work and had a lot of momentum

and someone suggested that I just bring it anyway. Like I didn't need to I didn't need to wait for the organization to say here's some money. I had enough community to just try.

So last year I brought my Apple Core Jungle Gym

and I just threw myself out there. I gave it a shot. It was one of the biggest shocks to my nervous system and I've never tried something so big and it ended up working out even though last year's weather was some of the worst weather we've ever had. My apple didn't move. It was just structurally sound. It was beautiful. You know, some things did go wrong along the way because all of us struggled when it came to putting up art in the last year, but Thankfully, that experience proved to the org that not only do I finish what I start, but that my project was going to continue and that they were going to support it.

Yeah. I think there's there's like two components to like like who they're going to support, right? It's like one of them is like there's got to be some sort of connection, right? Like if you're just some like random stranger, it's like, oh yeah, they don't know you, they're going to be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put the bottom of the pile." But then also like the second part is like, yeah, demonstrating

like competence, you know, or you like, yeah,

because our job is not just fun. It's, you know, a risk. You know, we're building giant works of art that people are climbing on.

Um, we have to be very responsible, not just for the the wow factor. We want it to be beautiful works of art, but it has to be lit up at night. It has to, you know, be anchored into the ground and not move with the wind. And we get some serious storms. So, the expectations are high.

Yeah. And I think I don't know I mean I've never well we'll talk about that later but um I did the one ply art project was um uh core. Do you do you remember core?

Tell me about it.

The circle of of regional effiges. I think it was like 2011 or like

Yes, I remember that.

Yeah. So I actually was the one that kind of like started I sort of like as I say I was like I lit the fire and then like walked away and other people kind of you know

uh just took it over. Um but uh you know because I started the Hawaii regional group and so back then like that was kind of like the tail end like when I was just kind of bowing out. So we had that was 2011. So that was like kind of like my last big project. And so

it wasn't just me but it was like a whole group of us and so we built like our effigy look out on the ply and burnt it. That was probably like the the only time I' ever done anything like like that you know but um

so yeah. So your apple core it's like I take it's not to be burned then maybe if you're

No, it's made out of steel. It's not to be burned. And when I applied for honoraria this year, I asked them to support me bringing it back because this is a series that is supposed to come back. I know a lot of,

you know, a lot of Burning Man art is made very quickly and what happens to it afterwards? It goes into storage. It ends up on your friend's land and just collects rust. You know, it's almost better to burn projects out there because then you don't have to take it back with you. you know, and figure out what do I do with this big thing I just made.

Yeah.

And so it it's a it's an important decision to make because the art out there changed my life and, you know, looking up at it when I was 21 like, "Wow, look at this. I want to do this, too." You know?

Well, I also I really like your concept of the whole like uh like compost like pile kind of thing like where it's like yeah, you know, it's that I can build on it like year after year and then also like with the the organization like they'll realize it's like oh yeah it's like it's not just like a like a oneoff

it's not a one-off kind of thing.

Yeah. And then

and it's a concept that builds itself as I get more strength and more experience and a stronger crew and more funding.

Yeah.

I'm building the project as I can sustainably.

Talk about that. Like so your crew I mean so I think it's not just you right?

Oh no it's not just me it's me and a really solid crew. You know some people people advise, some people help with administrative tasks, you know, and some people are really in this, you know, the studio or the shop with me, putting down welds, making sure that it's fitting the design correctly.

I'm surrounded by heavy hitters. For instance, someone on my crew this year is Dana Albany, and Dana is I'm so lucky to have someone like Dana, not only there to help me figure out how to finish up the geometry of a piece, but also just to encourage me. And for those who don't know, she's one of the most decorated Burning Man artists there ever was.

I have to say, today is Saturday, May 23rd. Her episode comes out Monday, May 25th.

Oh, I'm so excited.

I'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's amazing. She's done so much and she's a part of the whole fabric of, you know,

again, part of like the whole cycle thing. Like, I think she's kind of in the stage now where She's mentoring younger artists like yourself, too.

Yes, she is. And she really she helped me so much last year and she loves my concept, but she also she helps me with more than just the piece itself. She helps me with my personal confidence. And you know, I've been building for, you know, 15 years now. But people like her really hand over not just how to get one piece done. They they don't just give me a fish, she's teaching me to fish.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. And I've got characters like her and like Candace Lleair who is the reason I met you today.

Yeah.

I'm so lucky to have these people in my corner because, you know, they've been burning for 30 plus years and they have all these connections to understanding. I can end up at a brick wall. I don't know where to go next. And I'll say, "If only I had a structural engineer who understood this." And these heavy hitters will hear me say something like that and say, "Oh, well, I'm know someone who's been doing that for 40 years. Here's their number. And then it leads to a conversation and a solution.

And that's really the best part of the crew. It's not just about like who puts in the sweat equity.

It's about how I get connected to those who have the answers. A friend of a friend of a friend.

Yeah. Also, because before we're recording, like we're talking about the quest Skinner because I know that's like it's a large part of like her role is like art art support, right? You know, is kind of and and she I remember her saying that like that was like one of the things she loved about the job was like kind of connecting people like yeah I need a structural engineer it's like all right you know and

she's definitely one of those characters and that's why I listened to her episode with you because

and I did meet her working for artist support you know when I was helping out Aaron is when I met her and then you know so in 2022 I joined Aaron's first piece but then in 2024 Aaron came back and brought another art piece and she asked me to be her build lead the second time around

and it was beautiful because you know I had definitely declared to vertical camp once I returned to play like oh this is what I'm here for and everyone was very encouraging and so when Aaron asked me to be her build lead it felt like the next right step

to gaining that confidence and to knowing there's more than just making the art there's fundraising there's community outreach there's all these different steps that are required

that's what I was going to ask you like because you're coming from New York, right? I mean, just the logistics. I mean, it's like I mean, do you actually like driving across country with everything or container or what do you do?

Well, you know, the container program, it's that these container programs and like burner express and all these other programs that have been created in the years that we were gone

because those things didn't exist when we were going before.

No.

When I started coming back, someone told me, "Oh, you know, you can just send all your stuff with I was like you and how much is it going to cost I sent in 2024 I sent a bike and a large bin filled with things round trip they charged me 140 bucks

and I remember thinking I couldn't have even shipped one of those boxes across the country one time for 144 bucks

so yes one time I did that but I will say this is just how crazy I am

I one I like driving two I always planned on bringing my own art and um Doing the container program though, it's helpful if you're just arriving as a participant, but I plan on having bigger roles. So, I bought a truck. I bought a truck just for Burning Man,

like a box truck.

Um, it's actually like a work truck. It's a regular, you know, normal little cab, you know, normal extension, and it has a cover on top of it so I can transport a lot of goods inside.

Okay. Yeah.

But, um, in 2024, I was like, "Yeah, I'm just going to be driving from now on because because I knew that I'd be spending more time in the Bay Area anyway.

So, I packed up all my tools in New York and I drove across the country. And I got a studio here in San Francisco to work out of. It's called the Box Shop.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, The Box Shops Honoraria projects, lots of other big projects. Pretty historic place where big art has been made. I got a, you know, rental there and I've been slowly shipping things to the west coast and just building my art here and then I'd go back to New York and then work and then come back here during Burning Man season.

Oh, okay.

So, I'm usually here every summer and I leave my truck here, park it at a friend's house.

So, that way I have wheeled while I'm here.

Oh, okay.

You know, I feel like I just

picture you like driving across country in that truck with like your art and your your apple core.

I am willing. I am willing. No, but it it ended up being where it's like Okay, I've got a regular truck that's here. And now that my art's getting bigger and bigger, yeah, that doesn't work anymore. My regular truck is not going to get, you know, a 16 foot apple to the ply. But

yeah. Yeah.

But it does get me around town while I'm building it.

And how's this going to work like going forward when you have like the 16 foot apple and then you have like, you know, the half a bagel and then you have like

Yes. All these eaten pieces. Well, I've designed my piece to be a kit of parts. It's very modular. and can be broken down into smaller pieces. So, majority of my pieces are 12 ft long tops and I can put that on the back of a trailer because of the weight, you know, expectation. Or what I did last year is I rented a 15 foot box truck from U-Haul and I was able to fit the entire piece in there. So,

what about like cuz you know that you're getting an honorarium this year like could the does because I know that sometimes the project will like help people with like at least like storing stuff like out there in Gerlock. I don't know if it's like on the ranch or anything like that. Like

Yeah, there's options that people have. You know, there's a there's a few burners who have ranches, not just the one you're talking about. There's a few ranches throughout the area where you can kind of drop things off. I am avoiding that at all costs because it's kind of a graveyard for art.

Um there's all kinds of art cars and art pieces that just, you know, get dropped off and then kind of forgotten because the momentum is lost and out of sight, out of mind, and you're just paying rent

on another storage. forever.

So, my personal goal is to get public placement and to not rely on storage

and until then, I'm just going to stay at the box shop because I pay a monthly rental fee

for my box. And the box is 20t long. So, my entire piece can fit inside of that container when I'm out of town if I need it to.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's basically like having storage. But the difference is it's a studio I can work out of. So, whenever I'm in town, I can actually work on the artwork. and not just be in, you know, a studio or just on some land with no access to tools.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, it's the best storage option with option to fix it up over time.

And then the box shop, they're moving, right?

Yes. The box. Yeah.

Yeah. I I don't know the official date. I think it might be right after Burning Man, you know, like October

time. Um but yeah, the box shop's pretty historic. It's been there for decades and, you know, they can't keep the lease. And I know that San Francisco, like New York, is always changing.

And so they found some other land where they're building a space for big art that they're working on now.

Hopefully, um, it's not too far away cuz B shop is a great location. It's kind of right there in the center of everything.

Yeah. I actually was there about a month or no, earlier this month.

Oh, really?

Well, cuz I went to um Unscrews.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and so like my brother lives in San Francisco and so like he was you know he has I mean he for he took 14 years off of going to Britney man went back like last year and so he's an artist and so like you know he's looking for like some some space and so we you told him at the box shop and like we went and

did a little tour.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's really cool. I love that he did that and I definitely encourage him to keep looking.

Yeah. The one person I've definitely been trying to uh I want to interview and I I have like my bucket list of all these people but um Zulu Haru.

Yes, he is a coveted interview. Yes, Zulu Haru. Amazing artist and his work is transformative and I've honestly been very lucky to work on some of his pieces.

Um yeah, his work is amazing.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. But he's a box shop

honestly. His work Yeah. He's definitely a fixture, but he he described it is there was a um there was a gathering there a week or two ago and he described it that he wears the box shop jersey. I like the way he put it. He's like cuz it's more of like yeah maybe this place this physical location might move but what is a physical location? It's it's us the people who make it what it is. Where we go to make the art is what makes it the place.

And he was just describing how Box Shop has helped him get to where he's at because he's been a part of a few different studios in the city.

Mhm.

And Box Shop definitely meets our needs. Especially when it comes to welding projects. It's not the best if you had a wood based project because it's not a lot of wood, you know, it's not a lot of carpentry tools, but everything you would need for anything metal.

Mhm.

Amazing spot.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. So, like your compost uh garden going to or playground going to keep growing like 18 years?

Yeah, it's going to keep growing this year.

So, what's this year going to add?

So, this year the apple's actually going to get to a place of completion because like I told you last Last year I gave it a shot, gave it my all. This year I have a little bit more money, so I want to put a little bit more love into it, polish it off and make it even better. So I'm getting it powder coated. I'm, you know, putting more detailed work into the metal and like the final finish. And then I'm adding a giant teabag bean bag because, you know, you can compost your tea bags and as long as there's no staple in it, you can compost your tea bags. So I'm going to make just in the same scale a giant tea bag. That's a bean bag. That'll be right next to the apple. So, while you're climbing or your kid is climbing, you can take a little rest and watch them play.

I like that. That's awesome.

Yeah.

You could someday make like a banana peel slide,

you know? I love how everyone instantly knows that that's true. We all in our hearts know a banana peel is a slide. Obviously, yes, I have a design for a banana peel slide. I have a design for watermelon rind monkey bars. I have a design for popsicle stick

seessaw

like yeah yeah yeah

yeah I've got a couple really great ones

what could you do with like eggshells

well actually the eggshell is my fulcrum underneath

the sea the sea the uh the seessaw has it needs a fulcrum underneath so that way that that popsicle stick can go back and forth so

it's always the avocado pit too

right there's so many and that's the fun part I love love how quick people move into ideiation when they hear about it.

Yeah,

it's so much fun.

That's amazing. All right. Well, let's uh move on to our second question. So, um so yeah, tell me about your your preurnie man background. So, have you always Well, where'd you grow up?

Well, I grew up in Louisiana and Texas.

Okay.

You know, really close to Houston. I'm I'm from a small town, Ditter, Louisiana.

Um so, I'm definitely a southern girl. Um, and I lived there up until I was about 20, 21, and that's when I moved to Los Angeles. And I told you I met my first burners and had that experience.

So, you just moved by yourself or just like I'm going to LA like

I had a family member who lived out there and she it's just it I will say I have traveled a lot in the states by going to live with family members and this family member said, "Why don't you just come see me?"

And then it all worked out. out and and the beauty of that was I was getting to know her better, but I was also getting to know me better. And I've done that a few times since leaving home.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Well, you're very adventurous.

I am very adventurous, but I feel like everyone who you've interviewed probably is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably true.

Yeah. If anything, if we're not of interest, we're unhinged, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, did you like before went to LA like at what point what point in your life were you just did you say to yourself like I'm going to be an artist or like this is my path?

Uh that took a long time even after going to Burning Man I don't think I used the phrase for a few years. Um I think that I came to the understanding that I liked making art. I liked crafting. I knew I was creative but I just didn't know I was an artist until somewhere in my mid20s after I'd left Burning Man and I was like, I got to go build up some skills. That's when it started to blossom, you know, and I was working with different mediums and I got the opportunity to assist other artists with their art. That also helped a lot.

Taking on this new identity of I want to build put me in a position to help other people get their ideas out into the world and That kind of what it set me back a little bit actually because I became accustomed to helping other people make their art. Still not making my own, but it it gave me a bridge to understanding the process and and being willing to giving myself that shot.

Yeah. So when you took the time off to develop yourself, you know, like that's that's so the route you took. It was just like almost kind of like an like apprenticeship kind of thing.

I've always felt that way. Yeah. I think I learned through apprenticeship rather than intern ship or rather than you know traditional schooling I learned by working for people I respect and

and so it almost sounds like in some sense like Aaron came along and was just like okay you've had enough time

that's exactly what happened she said you've been percolating you've been steeping you're ready to go right you ready to go I said actually yeah I think I am let's do this

wow

yeah and it's been great ever since and I have a lot of work in me that I want to get out into the world and I'm really grateful for how much that I've been able to accomplish, but really I think I'm just getting started.

Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like I was going to ask you like, you know, so what's your life like now? I mean, like they do you consider yourself like a professional artist? That's your career and that's what you're doing and you're you're pursuing and

Yeah. Yes. I I would say so. I am a professional artist and that is my career and that is what I'm doing full-time.

Yeah.

So, I guess that's that would make me professional, right?

It's so so cool looking at things in hindsight and you know my life is a dream you know I love my relationships I love you know my team I love the house I live in I'm by coastal I'm making giant works of art it's the coolest thing ever and even in moments like this when you say would you call yourself an artist it's like wow these are the moments where I'm like I guess I am huh the data is there

yeah you finally look back and it's just like Oh.

Oh, I'm doing it.

I've checked all of the boxes at least a couple of times.

I'm This is the life. Am I Is this my life? This is my life.

It's like I I guess I guess I am.

I guess I am.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, uh this kind of gets us to our third question. Uh what is the impact or influence of Bernie man on your life?

Wow, that's so deep.

Bernie man, I mean there's so many places where Bernie man has influenced me, but most of all Bernie man showed me that there were options. You know, no matter no matter what happens, there is a way to make it work.

And I've heard the same thing from people who run marathons. You know, that endurance test, you know, uh there was a young woman I was talking to who just started running marathons in the last year, and she was saying what it taught her was how to not give up. She's not a runner her whole life. She's picked up as an adult and it was just practicing that she kept going and not stopping. Now she runs marathons and she's done it a few times and she's so

surprised by herself and I think that Bernie man has done that for me in that same endurance test. Bernie man has taught me not only what I'm made of but has also taught me that no matter what happens I can do it and I can find a pathway and I can be a part of something I'm proud of. and I can accomplish hard things and it just translates to everything.

Yeah. Well, I just I don't know what I'm hearing it just like it just like gives you it tells you, you know, just like hey, it like there is this possibility,

you know, cuz like what we were talking about before like how like so many times I know I get this in my whole entire life people just constantly, you know, just being like, "Oh, you can't do that." Or, "Nah, that's not for you." Or, "Don't even try." That won't make sense. Oh, that's so hard. You know, want to do all that work. That sounds like too much work.

Yeah.

But just like I I think just for people to even have like the possibility or even just like that flash of like inspiration of just was like, "Oh, this this could be possible." Like I I could do that.

Yeah.

You know,

Yeah. It makes the possible probable. Well, actually, it probably will happen, right? It goes from I don't know how this could possibly happen to, well, actually, I can see it happening. And I can even get co-conspirators to join me.

Oh yeah.

Willing participants.

Willing participants who are happy to be there. And um you know Bernie man has given me a career. Bernie man has given me you know forms of income that are alternative. Like I've been able to be a freelance artist for 15 years. I do not have traditional jobs and that is a blessing that comes from

an extensive network of professionals who

we are all there for each other even if we've never met. It's just the coolest thing ever to know that you have access to a community even if you've never met them before.

Um it's

this year I I each year I go I make like a different sticker and so you can see that

I have friends everywhere. Yes, exactly.

It's that unexpected friendship that

but also can lean on.

Yeah. I mean you can almost go anywhere in this world and just be like you're a burner. I'm a burner

anywhere in this world.

Yes. Yes. And I leaned on that

like you're saying like like with the whole like honorarium thing where people like oh you know it's like we don't know you know or just in everyday life you know it's just like you just walk into like a random stranger and it's just kind of like oh you know the barriers are up you know but then it's like once you know they see like oh you see like the little like like Bernie man tattoo like on their shoulder hey is that a B tattoo? It's like oh yeah and then All of a sudden,

Yes. the floodgates. Yes.

Yes. Like the barriers dissolve and it's just like, "Oh my god." It's like, "Do you you want to get some lunch? Like you need a place to stay?"

Yes. That did happen one time in New York cuz, you know, I do lots of fabrication jobs out there. And one time I was building some custom furniture for a client.

Mhm.

And he had a playlist on and there was something about that playlist that felt like a sunrise on the Playa. It felt like a sunrise in the desert. And I looked to him. I said, "Are you a burner?" He said, "Yes, how'd you know?" I said, "This song feels like I'm at a sunrise right now." He's like, "Oh, this is a set from the like he got so excited to tell me where the set was from."

And then you were like, "Oh s***, I opened the

next floodgate." And so I was working on building this table while he was telling me about these, you know, deep experience. He has his own play and how happy he was that we had this in common. And I'm telling you, this man had a gorgeous penthouse apartment. We would have never met otherwise if I wasn't building this table for him.

And at the end of that, the end of that particular job. He follows me on Instagram, you know, he posted my my um playground fundraising link last year to his camp. Like

it's things like that where we met simply off of your playlist sounds like it's something I've heard before.

I mean, do you have like other friends who don't go to Burning Man who are just like, "How do you know Jamie Diamond from from JB Chase Morgan or what whoever it is?" You know, like you just be like, "Oh, well, you know, they're a burner. I'm a burner. My brother would have that experience with me often where he'd be like, "How do you know them?" I was like, "Oh, well, my friend camped with them and then we all met at a brunch one time and, you know, or oh, I met them, you know, at a sunrise set. We were, you know, riding bikes together." And so my brother never would have went to Burning Man, but off of those kinds of meetings,

he actually went one year.

I don't know if he'll ever go back. I don't know if it's his cup of tea, but he was

ask about that like if any members of your family actually like went.

My brother is the only member of my family I've ever brought. It was so difficult. Um we fought majority of the time and classic Burning Man stuff.

But I will say he was really intrigued because of the expansive community I had in the default world.

He just like, you know, he saw that I was surrounded by not just

professionals but by friends. Like these people were my friends. And he was just so enamored with the life I was able to build off of those connections. Huh.

So, he went for himself and he tried it out and who knows? Who knows? Maybe he'll go back one day.

What was this last year or like when

that was two years ago?

Oh, okay. And he hasn't been back since or

No. And I think he thinks about it as we all do after you go your first time. Am I going back? Let's see. And you know, it's a tough decision to make early in the year. Sometimes we like to make that decision at the last minute.

Yeah.

I was I was that way for years. Honestly, I feel still like I'm that way. I just have art now. But

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to say yes, I'm going this year until all the stars align. Um

yeah, I know for for me like coming from Hawaii, it's like it's definitely logistically more challenging. And so like even we were talking about like oh just throw it in a container. It's like here it's just like it's like what you can carry on a plane.

Yeah. You have to be strategic about it.

Oh yeah. And so like you I have like like friends and like my brother like like in San Francisco and and stuff, you know. So it's

that helps a lot having someone who is local to California makes all the difference.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Wow. So I was just imagine just like getting like like get together with your family at Thanksgiving or whatever and like all your brothers and sisters and family like like lawyers and doctors and whatever just like oh yeah Jen the artist whatever just like yeah

she's going to Burning Man again.

But also just like you said just like rattling just like you know dropping names. You're just like oh yeah well you know I did a piece for this person and this and that. Like, wait, wait. How did you Who

How do you know them? How did that happen?

I thought you were just this like artist like like like poor artist person.

Oh my gosh.

How are you doing these wonderful things?

You know, working with other artists along the way helped a lot to help my family conceptualize what it was I was going toward. Like you brought up Zuluuru earlier.

Yeah.

Being able to help him with Whispers of Waste. You know, Whispers of Waste is a sculpture he brought in 2025. It was at the man base. And it's such a gorgeous work of art and it just recently joined the big art loop. So it got permanently pl not permanently it got placed in San Francisco for a year.

Yeah.

And I got to help him with a small portion of that sculpture. But people being able to see the process of us making multiple sculptures as a team because you know I'm on his team, he's on my team. We have different art pieces. Mine is mine. His is his

but we have a group of about five to 10 people. that rotates any time where we all help each other. We all step in for each other. We're all working on each other's work. And so my family is not just seeing, you know, what I'm campaigning for. They're seeing all these examples of how we can apply our skill sets to making something beautiful that's tangible at the end.

And in the last few years, you know, when I was going before and I was saying with words what I wanted to do, could not make everyone understand. But now that I have physical examples and more than one example.

I'm getting so much more support. This is the most support I've ever had for any art I've put out because I think people, you know, seeing is believing. People want to see some proof in the pudding. Not just the org for the actual grant process, but friends and family

so they can conceptualize what it is we're doing. What are you making? What do you mean you're making a giant apple? Why would you do that?

And not a whole apple, an apple core.

And why do we care about compost? Why is compost such a big deal out there? You know, there's a whole camp called compost camp. What's the point? You know,

you go around collecting other people's compost.

You can drop off your compost with like Wait a minute. All the food you ate, you can drop off somewhere. Wait a minute.

So, are you going to be back at vertical camp this year? Is that your artist support camp or

No. So, you know, as you know, camps have a tendency to grow and topple and change and something that's smart about vertical is they intentionally don't go every year because it's such a huge lift.

That's a great idea. Yeah.

Right. Like they it's a concept that comes around every couple years.

So I was with them for three years and then I was a part of a camp. We tried something last year and I have a dream of starting my own camp that's small. Back to those original days when it was just 20 people. Such a good number.

That's the best. Even 12. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, such a good number. I have not been able to accomplish that. yet, but I have joined other established camps. So, I'm kind of just hopping around because while I'm bringing art, I do need support

and it does help a lot to already have an established family take care of things like,

oh,

how is their kitchen set up so I can go focus on installing my artwork and then the kitchen's already done.

Um, so this year I joined POC camp

and it's a lovely group of people and I'm very excited to be a part of their camp. They've been so welcoming and I I love how they approach their meetings. They are heavy on consent and it's so fun getting into different camps and different ethos of camps because everyone's got their subject they care a lot about whether it be the gift they're offering to the playa or how they relate to each other.

So I'm very open to hopping camps and trying new ones because I'm always learning something from a new group of people.

Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. So um let's see. Do you have any where you want to send people like do you have like links or or do you have like a like a fundraiser for your project or anything like that or

Oh, that's a great question. So, I have an Instagram page for the playground. It's compost_playground. And on that Instagram page, I'm posting updates. I'm showing behind the scenes of how the apple is actually being made, what it's like to be at the box shop, and the fundraising link is going to be dropped there next week.

Oh, okay. So, I'll put that.

Uh, anything else you want to put like like in for like the show notes? like links or I guess just the the Instagram that that'll

Yes, if you were to follow compost_playground, you'll see everything you need to see.

Okay.

And I'm also tagged on that, so you'll be able to find my personal Instagram from there, too.

All right. Uh, anything else you got or?

No, honestly, this has been great. It's been such an easy combo. It's nice to share because I know we all have our journeys, individual journeys of how we get there. And you know, often you hear how much Bernie man changes our life and how I was never the same. And I just really want to say that it's so nice to have places where we can express this very personal, intimate relationship we have with this city because it's spiritual, it's emotional, it's it's not just the hardship and the overcoming. It's

the forging of the fire and who we are when we get out of there. And I really appreciate you creating a a platform to share that cuz that's really the reason I went the first time is cuz someone was sharing that sentiment.

Yeah. Well, for me like for after coming back for so long and I I kind of cast about it's like oh I could do this I could do that and it just I don't know it always kind of came to me like and then just seeing like on social media people kind of complaining like after like one this year or that year about Burning Man like oh they're asking for like money again or whatever like and some people just complaining like oh it's all just a big party. It's just like what what's the big deal? you know, and I'm just like really really this is like if if this is all just like a big party. It's just like why are we doing this, you know, and so and then also the other part of it just I know like so many people but like I don't really know like their

their story, you know, just like where they came from like or just like you're talking about like like what does this mean to you? It's like why are you coming back? Like why are you doing this? Like some people like 40 years of their life or more, you know, like like why? You know,

why? There's got to be a reason why. We keep going back and it's just like your intro says like we keep doing it.

Yeah.

We just There's got to be a reason why. And

what's your reason?

My reason is that Bernie man made my dreams come true. I dreamed that I could make public works of art and I'm doing that. And

but it's not like it made it happen. It's like it it allowed you to have the power to realize your own dreams, right?

And that's why I still feel like it kind of did make it happen because I am the one who built the life I'm living today. But Burning Man gave me a map.

Bernie man gave me a map and it the coolest part was that it wasn't a map that's copy paste. Everyone has the same copy. It was this magical map that showed me the path as I went along.

But also thinking

a map is it's it's like it just shows you where to go. It's like it's up to you to actually, you know,

do the work of going and arriving and being present. That is the beauty. It's an interactive experience. It's not just uh being given the fish. It's being taught how to fish.

Yeah.

So, you know, why do I keep going back? Because I'm becoming a stronger fisherman.

And maybe now you're going to teach other people to fish.

Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

It makes it all worth it.

Yeah. So, you can see yourself going back here after year or

every year I want to be there. I'm gonna tell you the truth. Even those 10 years I was gone, I always wanted to be there. So yeah, I Yeah. Yes. I would love to always be there.

Yeah. I mean, don't don't feel the pressure to be like absolutely every single year. It's like, you know, you could take like a year here and there or, you know, be like,

I would even take another 10 years off. I I think that the beauty of that place is I didn't think I was missing anything while I was gone.

I didn't feel any FOMO. I But I did have dreams. I was telling you,

I would have dreams that I was in the city on the streets, you know, interacting with things. And there'd be this little moment where I'd say to myself, "Am I really here or am I dreaming that I'm here?" Like, I started to know that it wasn't real because I knew I hadn't been there in so long. So then when I started going again, I would say to myself, "Okay, I'll know if I'm really here and this is not a dream if I wake up and I'm still here,

right? I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So now that's one of the, you know, personal practices I have. Every first night I'm there, I say to myself, if I'm really here, I'll wake up here.

Oh man. I love to like find your camp and put a sign on in front of your tent and just like we wake up and just it just says you're really here.

You're really here.

It's not a dream.

Yeah. Do you ever do go to any of the regionals?

I've been to a couple regionals here and there, but to be honest, I don't have enough fun. I'm really hoping that after I have a couple years with building this artwork that I can actually take it to some regionals.

That's what I'm hoping for because I made everything so modular that I can travel with it.

But that's my biggest hope is that I get into more public spaces because having art at the regionals is also super fun and it helps connect people, especially if you didn't make it to the playa.

Yeah.

So, I'm hoping to be involved in that way soon. Your stuff's all like at in like San Francisco, right? Like

right now because I was telling like I just went to like Unscrews. Like that was actually the first regional event I've been to like outside of, you know, Hawaii. Um and it was awesome. It was great. I'm sure

you saw you saw Haven there, the birds with the fire.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They're also at the box shop. So that's FLG, Flaming Lotus Girls.

And just like that, I hope to be in the same position where I can bring artwork to regionals and have that element of fun and play so that way we can keep the regionals going. No matter what happens to the main event,

the regionals will live on.

Well, let me plant an idea in your head. Um I was thinking about going to um God, what's it called? Bequinox. It's like the the the LA one that like out

I've been to that one.

Yeah. So, I'm thinking about maybe going next year with our camp, the cult of distraction. And then I actually bring my show. And so, I do these thing called shadow shorts. So, where it's basically like I I challenge people I put like five minutes on the clock with like you have five minutes explain like like how Brady Man has changed your life go you know and uh just you know collecting stories from just like random people you know it's it's not it's not like just

love that

like oh founders and and you know all these like high power people you know it's like I I want to talk to everybody from everywhere from every background right

you know it's just like what

it's every type of person

like oh yeah

yeah

yeah that sounds great little five minute intro cuz people can pack in a lot of emotion into that five minutes.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they come out actually every other Friday. Like I'm kind of running out of the ones I collected on the playa and I I collected like some of them at at Unscrews, but yeah, I think I might have to collect some more.

It's time to collect some more stories. You're out there foraging.

Yeah,

foraging for stories.

Exactly.

Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview.

Thank you, Andy. I loved it. I loved it.

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