EP 74 Ranger Crow

Episode 74 with Ranger Crow is out now! Meet Ranger Crow, the current operations manager of the Black Rock Rangers, who reflects on his twenty-five-year history with Burning Man. The conversation details Crow’s accidental introduction to the event in 1998, a journey that transformed from an impromptu road trip into a lifelong commitment to community service and a permanent move to the town of Gerlach. Crow explains the unique philosophy of the Rangers—a volunteer group focused on conflict resolution and mediation rather than traditional policing—emphasizing their role as a cultural bridge that maintains safety through presence and communication. He explains how the event serves as a vehicle for human connection and tribal unity, providing a powerful alternative to the isolation of modern consumerism.

https://burningman.org/black-rock-city/volunteering/brc-rangers/

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Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Am I here to help you? No, no, no. I'm that Andy.

Today, today our guest is the one and only Ranger Crow, welcome.

Hey, Andi. Good to see you again.

Yeah. Yeah. So, what is your official title nowadays in the Burning Man?

My official title is uh operations manager of the Black Rockck Rangers.

So, you're like the the the El Presidente.

No, no, that's someone else. I don't know what it is. I Alissimo Jackard.

I don't know.

You don't get the um the Noriega hat.

Oh, no. No, no.

See, that's what the You guys need to like upscale your uniforms a little bit like with the epilelettes on the shoulders.

Oh, you could do that if you wanted to. You I think they encourage you to doll up your costume. Although, if you were doing a bunch of whatever Henimo b*******, I think they that wouldn't be the great greatest object. I don't I don't want people to know I'm in charge. Really?

Yeah. Or even if you were just like a new recruit just like this shall be my uniform.

Yes, that's perfect. Yep, that would work.

I known as the capo of the Rangers. Yes. You know,

I used to want to have this do this kind of stunt where I get a mannequin that looks like MacArthur in the back of a, you know, convertible with the little staff flags.

Uhhuh.

You know, and it just be a man, you know, sunglasses and the whole thing. And he could be the dick, right? You could be like, "Let me let me go ask." You know, and then you, you know, he doesn't move at all and you go, "No." He says, "No way. I'm sorry."

You could even have like a button with like a sound effect. We hear grumbling like, "No, no." Like,

yeah, we had a joke in the Rangers about authority figurines, you know, rather than authority figures.

You know,

something like that.

Good.

Yeah.

Because you'd be out somewhere and be like, "Ah, I got to get approval for this." It's like, how do you do that? Do you you you radio? in like no no hold on

Ken doll you pull out like hey

can I can this person do this crazy thing no you can't oh sorry plastic doll says no

yeah n

so we'll start with the beginning with your Bernie man experience so like how did you even hear about Bernie man like what was the first time you ever went out to the pla like what was that about I heard rumblings of that for a while, you know, because I grew up in like San Jose, Santa Cruz, Lascatus area, so we weren't very kind of far south of the epicenter or whatever, but um you know, didn't really know anything about it and was like, yeah, I mean, I loved camping in the desert and um you know, doing all the stuff you do there, but that was a a pretty um remote experience. I mean, I was um you go there. I didn't usually go alone, but I there would be very few people, right? And you'd go there to get away from everybody and do whatever we wanted to do.

And that wasn't this desert, right? That was just other deserts like Joshua Tree and Mojave and other places, Mexico. But um then, uh so I just had heard of it. But um then my friend, I was in a band called Ruins with this with my friends and um our guitar player worked at uh KFJC, which is Foothill Junior College

and he was a DJ. there. He got into that superintendent music. He's like a sound engineer guy and he ended up working alongside people who had, you know, started and that staffed um Radio Free Burning Man. And so we were going to go out uh we were going to take our band in like a box truck and go out to some ruins and trip out and, you know, look at him and play music. And we had this thing kind of planned for a while. And then his friends, you know, um there I could, you know, say their names like Dusty Balls and um Chocky White and these people who were DJs on um Rated Free Burning Man. Um they were like, "Hey, if you're going to go out that way, why don't you stop by this weird event, this is in uh 1998, um and do some DJ shows with us, you know, and check it out, you know?" It was I think it was like whatever 50 or 60 bucks. And there was, as it turned out, like I think 15,000 something people that year.

98. Yeah. 98 that. Yeah.

So like you know so he was talking to me and saying can we go by there? You know we were in like my suburban loaded up with all this stuff and we maybe we go by there for a few days and um I could do these shows. And so then I then I started actually checking out what it was right and seeing oh yeah no spectators and um so that actually was pretty key right. because I was like, "Oh, well, what the hell am I going to do?" Well, my friends, you know, um, being a DJ, you know, and what is this, you know, place and came across the ranger thing? Um, there's there's a rule now that you can't just be a ranger when you've never been to Burning Man. Um, which makes sense, right? But, um, I had been camping in the desert all these places and I was I I don't know if it said this or I just took this away from reading it about the rangers that like, well, if you can take care of yourself good enough, maybe you could help take care of others, right? You're not going to be the the victim in the equation. You're going to be the, you know, the person that helps

I can do that. You know,

that's a good prerequisite,

right? Because if you can't take care of yourself then to be like, yeah, who do you want taking care of you? Like, not that guy.

Yeah. Yeah. The guy who's on the ground has Yeah. Um, so that that was what kind of whatever opened that door.

Well, how'd you even like cuz this is like 1998. It's like I mean you said you were like oh doing some research you're like looking into it and you heard about this and it's like how I mean was it even like

was did they even have like a website back then?

They did remember

I don't think it was very old. Um but they did you know there's a wired article and whatever of these things that I did not see before this but then I I stumbled across once

my our guitarist you know um DJ LSD um suggested that we go by here right um on our way to do the real thing, right? Um

and so that's what kind of started it. But um they did there was something online. I mean, there was a survival guide and you know, enough uh no spectator Kool-Aid going on that I was like, "Okay." Um but yeah, that's how we ended up going. We we really only planned to stay for I think it was going to be like leave on the third day or something like that. You know,

it was like a weekend kind of thing.

Yeah. It was just like on the way, but we didn't want to kill our whole trip and, you know, our budget and whatever. Um,

well, where was your trip to? Cuz I mean, like Black Rockers.

We were going to go to like Mesa Verde and some, you know, Pueblo stuff and Anastasi glyph dwelling stuff, you know, and hopefully get somewhere,

you know, close camped somewhere, you know, close enough to be make the ruins accessible and visible, right, for we could play. And, you know, we we didn't this wasn't all lined out like we knew that we had permission or, you know, knew where we were going. It was just we were going to go do it, you know.

So, you guys had just like

like an impromptu kind of like road trip tour kind of thing, right? I mean, did you could did you are we were these like like dates or like where people were going to be like, "Hey, yeah, we're going to be playing over here." And then people would kind of like like uh

No, no. We weren't going to play for anybody anybody else. We were going to go um play for ourselves and like write stuff and play stuff that we already had been playing. thing.

But yeah, I mean it wasn't like completely impromptu. We we talked about it. We were going to do it. I think maybe we

knew we were going to do it for about 3 months or something. Two months and we were planning for it. Yeah, it would have been it was like at least three months because that's how then I had some time to check out Burning Man before we went um like to research it a little bit and Okay, I'm going to go do this while you go DJ and

Yeah.

Well, that makes a little more sense because Yeah, because been like Gorlock, you know, like Black Rockck Desert. I mean, it's like it it takes intention to like go out there and do that. It's not just like, well, on the way to our show in Reno, we'll just swing on by here and do this for three days and like, yeah,

I think our trip was maybe going to be like 10 days. I don't remember super clearly, but

wow,

something like that. It was going to be, right? Um maybe even two weeks, but you know, probably would not have uh you know, stayed out that long if we ran out of money. So,

no, it sounds like a cool like road trip adventure. Was it like I mean have like a little small caravan of cars or something?

No, it was I mean we just we were a threeperson band and then Yeah. I don't know. It's a drummer end up saying you know guys but I can't go you know and we're like what you know and so then we had a buddy um Dave who um also could play the drums and he totally wanted to go uh for this whole thing, but also to Burning Man, right? And so, you know, that was part of, you know, of course, our instruments are in this vehicle. We didn't end up renting the thing we were talking about. That was a pipe dream probably to rent something big enough to actually um be comfortable. But, uh, we came through, you know, and, um, just like, you know, the bus came and I got on and, you know, I don't remember what happened after kind of thing. Um, but we we were coming in, it was like you know, not lot long after sundown and, you know, not no big line, you know, as far as it wasn't hours waiting at the gate, but we're coming down six o'clock and I can see this big fire straight ahead, right? Which was where, as it turns out, where center camp is now, but um could see this big fire, right? And I'm like, "Oh, they're already burning s***. I know nothing this place, right? They're already burning some s***." And it's whatever Sunday night, Monday night, you know, a week away from the man burn. Um, and then we get closer, you know, like meandering our way in and trying to figure out what the hell we're supposed to do and see people like running, you know, and like throwing water and, you know, this is like, you know, basically kind of my first moment in Black Rock City of after coming through the gate, which was not a big deal back then, but oh look, it doesn't it looks like that's kind of an accidental fire, right? Um, as it turns out, it was this, you know, hay bales that somebody who I want to uh put a camp stove on. This is this is the legend anyway. Put a camp stove directly on his hay bales and it it lit up, right? And and we're just like, "Oh, hey, well, f***. Welcome to Black Rock City." So, we kind of circled that scene and we're like, "Look at that." I think we maybe even said, "You need to help somebody." And they were like, "We got this." And it was pretty much going out by then. But then we Okay, where are we going? And we ended up uh kind of going around center camp. out onto the open playa and then ended up at nine o'clock um about nine o'clock and what bravo right um

and saying okay this is I guess we were finding a spot and this is the spot right and yeah it was quite the experience as it turns out life-changing I guess but

oh yeah well no I mean like back in the day yeah I mean it's like on the be street where you know like you're showing up what you say like Monday Tuesday or something it's just like oh where's Yeah. Like where's a good spot to camp? It's like I don't know. Right here.

Yeah. What's wrong with this place? As it turns out, there was one thing that was wrong about that place and that was because directly across B in front of us was Disturbia.

Um, and they were that they were just doing their

the thing. I'm like, well, I mean, look at the name, right? I mean, I I knew nothing again, but like they're they're doing it, you know? They little uh like motion sensors that would if you're walking by in the dark, they'd be like, get the out of my camp or just you know megaphones and you know doing their thing.

For for anyone who hasn't been to Bernie man her but might not know what Disturbia is like. Can you just describe what Disturbia was?

Uh I kind of weird anarchist peopleish. I don't even know if that's really what they were but um part of their stick was you know disturbing people know usually with good tongue and cheek humor but you know, they cruise around with the I think this is them anyway, like in an art car and they're cruising around or some vehicle and just critiquing people's camps, you know, saying, "Oh, dome, real original, right?" Or like, "Oh, cute, a teepee or whatever." Just like they were just like, but they kind of did everything like that that they could think of to do, right? And they weren't being total assholes or anything. They were just kind of like, you know, a little bit of uh sandpaper or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't mean to say it's bad. across from them. I just was saying that was

a feature, right?

It's a memorable, right?

Sorry, what were you going to say?

Oh, no. Just remembering from like probably way way back then like um must have been like late 90s, early 2000s like somebody kind of the idea of like kind of punking people or pranking people like just like putting like like on a loudspeaker and um back when you know when they first instituted the like like no bringing of animals or pets.

I remember people bringing cats, dogs, you know, like oh, it's crazy. But I mean, but I remember they so we put on a speaker like like a dog like like ruff.

Yeah.

Or or back way back when this is, you know, for all the kids today. It was like when there was no phones, right? And so they would play like a a ringtone, like a phone ringing and but it wouldn't be like super loud. So then you kind of be like, "Wait, did I just hear a phone ring?" Or it's like, "Wait, did did I just hear a dog bark?" You know, you're like, "This shouldn't be here.

Yeah. Yeah. The DPW had a recording, well, probably more than one, but of the dog fight going on and they would play this and just get freak people freaking out, right?

Yeah. That's what it like, you know, they tell people like, "Oh yeah, that's like, you know, Michael Vic, like, you know, he's like a volunteer for DPW and he started this like, you know, secret club DPW." I mean, it's like we could tell big pranks like that. People like Oh my god. He was so credulous. He was like, "That's wrong. That's wrong."

Find me a ranger.

Yeah, exactly. Where's an authority figurine?

I love the authority figurine thing. That's awesome. Um

Yeah, people are so trained to just call, you know, for call 911 about everything instead of talking to their neighbors or anything.

Yeah. Well, I also had another kind of like funny idea of like a camp, like the whole idea for the theme camp would be to to give out fake radios to people.

I mean, it's one of those ego things of the play. It's like, I don't just have one radio. I have two. People, you know, it's just it's like here now. Here's the camp for you. It's like here, no, you too can have a radio. You know,

and then people come up to you, you know, it's just like, oh my god, I have an emergency. And it's just like, oh yeah, no,

these aren't these aren't real.

Yeah. Yep.

Talking to the authority figure, not figurine.

Yes.

So, Um, so in your brief foray to Burning Man in 1998, well, you were there just a couple of days or did you guys wind up like staying there for like

No. So that's the rest of it is so we got there. One of the things that I'd done in advance was like no spectators or whatever. We were bringing all of our instruments and it's like, oh, you can go

you kind of go book your own gig, you know. And there was a new camp there called Gigsville.

Oh, yeah.

Also started in 98 as far as what I understand. Mhm.

And you could go online and like, you know, book time on the stage or whatever, you know, like I kind of knew even then this wasn't like this is not a music festival. It's not where, you know, like if I can go sign up for this obviously, you know, it shows you the kind of quality of what's who's there. But we signed up for two different gigs. One was at Gigsville on like I don't know Wednesday or something in the afternoon and one was at some other camp I don't remember that was actually ended up being really close. to where we were camped at 9:00 and but so that was going to be like okay we'll leave right after that you know and um we'll get on to this thing but uh we were you know the more that we walked around we were like what is going on here you know and trying to figure it out you know and maybe you know maybe it's about mushrooms yeah maybe partially uh maybe not right um and uh just checking it out out and I I don't know, this is where the kind of deeper part comes in is that I was like looking at my own neighbors. Here's Disturbia. Here's like some tie-dyed hippie people from um New Mexico that have a hot air balloon. And then there was this metal band with horns that I, if I remember right, I think it was called Heavy Silver, you know, and I just heard this. Oh, they're Heavy Silver. They're from the Bay Area or whatever. But they're right next to us and you, you know, 80-year-old Republican gun nuts over there. And I was like, where where, you know, what kind of f****** intersection is this where these people, they wouldn't even, you know, talk to each other anywhere else and they were all here for some reason, you know, and so as the time went on, right, and we realized like, okay, yeah, uh, I don't know what the hell's going on here, but I don't think we're going to the four corners, you know, like I, you know, we pretty much burned through our money, you know. uh at this point, you know, and

when I were to leave,

I mean, we didn't have a lot, but you know, we're like, we're eating that food, we're drinking that water, we're um

you know, basically using up the resources that we were going to use for the other thing, you know,

and and just like and you know, I just haven't figured out what's going on here. So, I don't think we're going anywhere. Plus, now I've got some more Ranger ships near the end of the end of the week that I booked in and um and we should watch this, you know. man burn thing, you know, they're going to burn a man or something. Uh, and so we ended up not going, right, anywhere else. Just um staying there and um we blew off the gig at Gigsville, you know, just like ah afternoon

stuff to do.

Yeah. And then um and and so what you know, no one cares. And then then there was a dust storm for the next gig, right, where we were actually going to do it and it was pretty close by to us. So we loaded everything up and it's, you know, it's really got that storm going on. We're like, hm, I wonder if uh we're actually going to, you know, play in this, you know, and then we drove over there and it it was worse, you know, 15 20 minutes later it was even worse, right? And we're sitting outside there and we could see the stage just, you know, everything blowing around everywhere and starting to come apart and we're like, I don't think we I we even had like, you know, gas masks or whatever um that we could have played. didn't know we were psychotic, but um we're like, I don't think we're getting out. I don't think there's going to be anyone to receive us. I doubt there's power, you know, like look this, look at this f****** thing right now. And there's a guy going by us with one of those huge uh patio umbrellas, you know, like the kind you stick in a table and he's on a a skateboard just sailing past with the gas mask on. Like we're looking at this out out the windows of my vehicle being like, "Yeah, uh pretty kooky out there." And so, of course, we didn't play there either, right? Um And then uh I learned that you kind of like you know fight club if it's your first night you have to fight kind of thing. Every ranger is supposed to work the perimeter you know at the

burn

man burn um and so well I got to do that thing right and um yeah I'm just like figuring out what I should edit out of this but anyway I had to do that gig and um you know to work that uh thing and this is my first you know burn burn my first, you know, first time in Black Rock City, but also first burn. And they're like, you know, keep your back to the fire, look at the crowd, you know, which is hard to do um when you're when you're total newbie and there's s*** blown out behind you, but

yeah.

Um so we'll we'll meet up after this. Like I'm going to go work this shift, then we'll meet up after this, me and my buddy, you know, Dave and and Hasty.

Uhhuh.

And um we uh I was like, "Wow, okay. That's that was really quite an exper experience, you know, and then we actually found each other and met up, which was was hard back then.

And, you know, there's people, you know, we walked around the ply a little bit, you know, and and then ended up back at the fire, you know, and there was people sitting there drumming and um people like with, you know, big long sticks and iron bars and stuff like, you know, tending the fire, throwing stuff into it. It was, it seemed like, you know,

I don't really think that happens in the same way, you know, anymore that that you end up with the the the all night vigil at the fire, but I guess honestly I haven't tried it in a long time, so I don't know. But uh anyway,

well, I have a question. Um so, how did you get even get into your first like uh Ranger games? Cuz I mean, cuz you were talking about like, oh, you were just going to like swing by Burning Man and then, you know, Black Rockck City and then you just like one day bled into another and all a sudden you were just like, oh yeah, and I got these ranger shifts. I mean, like, so did you just kind of like wander around and you're like, who are these major people. Let me just sign up for a shift.

No, I was I was signed up with them before we arrived.

Oh,

but the training wasn't until Tuesday of the event week, I believe.

Oh, okay.

And so it was like right after that I started working, you know, but um yeah, you know, then it's weird because I came to understand a lot more now, you know, since then anyway about like what to the community is, you know what I mean? I wasn't of the community. Didn't know what the hell it was, right?

Um, and so that's that's part of where I was going with that that fire thing I was going to tell you to kind of finish that story really quick was

when I'm standing there with my friends and like looking at everybody sitting around and listening to their drumming and watching, you know, people go everywhere. You probably remember that it was like the burn night was like a war zone then because people were burning s*** everywhere. Like there's no rules about deep chromosa. And in fact, the people that were camped next to us with the uh hot air balloon. They had mounted the burner from that up in their truck and they were just cruising around burning s***, you know, like couches and you could smell burning plastic everywhere. But

but so that's kind of like the scene that's around where we were. But we were at the fire, you know, like looking at that

and I was like looking at my friends and being like who who will, you know, which one of you guys will go walking up there with me to the fire, you know? Um and just feeling really whatever deep about it and It was like this question came in of like why are these people here you know like what you know this this diverse group of people right and I had this thought of like it's the biggest bonfire on the continent you know like this is the signal fire this is like a council fire where where a bunch of tribes meet you know to maybe they were having heavy talks and we weren't right but uh anyway it was like this is an intersection this the biggest bonfire and so I just really whatever. Uh that kind of hit me in the face, you know, of like that is what's going on here. After a week, I finally kind of get it because, you know, it used to burn on Sunday night, I guess, back then. But, um then, you know, we stayed up most of that night or whatever. And we're getting around it started to get like it was going to rain because you remember Drowning Man the event, right?

And I'm like, you know what? We're I'm getting ready to get out of here anyway. And um

let's pack up, right? And so we got out. We Uh we're getting ready, you know, actually loading up the car and then starting to drive and I had the thought for the first time like am I coming back here? You know, like next year am I ever coming back here? And I just, you know, immediately was like, hell yeah, I am. And then I've been uh back every year since then.

So with your friends too, was that like the the topic of the conversation in your multi-hour drive for back or wherever you're going? We talking like well well next year or next year or was it just kind of more like your own thing.

It was pretty much my own thing. I mean, we had a little bit of talk like that, you know. They they they were pretty jazzed up about it, but they weren't like, "Oh, hell yeah." And I probably wasn't either, but I just I remember it being a very, you know, a really strong affirmative at one second after I asked myself that question, you know, being like, "Hell yeah, I'm coming back next year." And uh but yeah, they, you know, Dave never did come back. Um LSD came back a couple times, scattered through, you know, Um, oh, he came back in 99, I guess, but then then after that he took a few years off and then came back for one, took a few years off and but he didn't like whatever get under their skin in the same way, I guess.

Yeah. Well, no, I mean it sounds I mean like you I mean it's just amazing to me that like you you signed up to do the ranger training and to volunteer for Rangers and like and it was just your first your first year, you know? I mean, there's been a couple of people I've interviewed now that Um, one is Christina Acesia. She

uh was doing like regional stuff like in in Austin and she's done a couple like flip sides or whatever and then she was like, "Yeah." And so then for my my my first trip to Black Rockck City, uh I organized a village and I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like like what the hell?"

Well, you don't know what you don't know, right?

Yeah. But also specifically like being a a ranger too, you know, like just just kind of showing up and she's like, "Well, this is my first time." And she's like, "Yeah, but I'm a ranger." It's like, wouldn't I don't know. I almost thinks it's like, wouldn't you have to kind of like have to have that experience first to like know what you would be like dealing with with people?

Well, I think that's true. And you know, there's a whatever maxim that we don't train rangers. We find them and give them hats, you know, in some sense, right? And so that it it was kind of a natural fit for just other thing other experience I I I had had like what was new was Black Rock City really you know what I mean like

oh yeah you really need you know these kind of people in a place like that you know uh more than you do because you know I do that kind of stuff for friends and

um small scale stuff or whatever

so it's like you kind of knew how to do the the job say you know but you know doesn't like it's like a firefighter you how to put out fires. It doesn't matter like oh you're familiar with this type of structure or that right like

yeah I mean listening to people and you know finding um you know finding a way through an issue or whatever helping them find their way through an issue kind of thing you know I don't know just

yeah well also for some of my listeners who like maybe never been to Bernie man just I mean just explain the whole idea of like what a ranger is like it's not they're not police it's not private security you know um

not cops, not your mom.

Yeah.

Um somewhere in the middle there, you know. Well, closer to your mom, I guess. But

yeah, but you help with like conflict resolution, mediation, right?

Yeah. Good communication, good problem solving, good listening, being patient, being compassionate. Um but yeah, I mean trying to um resolve issues and then of course, you know, eyes and ears, right, in the sense of kind of front line for an issue that does need to be escalated to a medic or a firefighter or god forbid law enforcement, you know, um

like, "Yeah, this is a real problem." Yeah, we tried to talk. Um nope, we got to stop that right there. What's happening?

Yeah.

So then you have to figure out what to do and bring in the proper resource because they're not patrolling everywhere and we and generally speaking, we as a community don't want them patrolling everywhere looking for problems, right? Yeah.

So rangers kind of come at things,

you know, quote a lot of like maxims or whatever, but first do nothing, you know, just like watch, make sure the scene is safe, see if there's an actual issue. Um, as opposed to what could happen because people, you know, sometimes gravitate uh to the rangers that are, you know, want to find the problem and then be the hero kind of thing.

Um, and so that doesn't help, right? That's not an effective um

I mean, just just even like your presence kind of solve issues. Yeah. You know, like because I can imagine like someone's like having some sort of issue or two different people or have some sort of dispute and then you guys show up and then they're kind of like, oh, you know, like even just like like you're standing nearby and just kind of observing. They're kind of like, oh, well, maybe we can work things out.

Yeah, totally true. And that's the first kind of thing is uh presence, right? Visibility. Um that could have deterrence that could squash some things. Sometimes there's like argument and then someone says, "Well, I'm going to go get a ranger or or somebody, right?" Or maybe that there's a staff person from a different department on site that has a radio and they say, "We're going to call rangers, whatever." But when people, at least sometimes, you know, when people see, oh, they said they were going to call somebody and somebody has arrived, you know, this isn't really um maybe going away, you know, like I called their bluff and they called my bluff.

And so then, yeah, that that helps, right? There's there's um I think there's times where we find out something's going on and we're there and we don't show our presence, right? Because we're getting information, right? I'm doing nothing and watching and seeing who are the players and whatever and like getting, you know, in position or whatever. And then uh then saying, "Okay, now I'm going to let him see me

and you know, see if that helps." All right. Okay, now I'm going to walk over and say hi and introduce myself and start talking to him and see if that helps. And Uh yeah. And then we'll just keep calling war rangers and keep talking to you and get till you get so annoyed that you stop doing whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll just if if I do what you're saying, will you shut the f******? You're like, "Yeah, I will. Totally. I'll I'll go away and like great. Thanks. Deal." You know?

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So I guess you guys are sort of like the first point of contact, right? Like you triage like I said like does this person need like uh like medical or is this like you know or is this something that's like oh like you know this is like a crime or something like we can't handle that you know but

yeah

I mean that must be also an interesting judgment call is like when to involve like law enforcement too right I mean

yeah I mean for us it's it's mostly violence I would say I mean I'm being simplistic right but that's that's largely what it is um you know when I said like first do nothing or it used to be the default action is to do nothing. I kind of mutated to first do nothing. But uh the exception to that is like if there's a medical if there's any question that this this is a medical that requires anything more serious than a band-aid,

then it's not a do nothing. It's you're you're calling that in, right?

Um if it's like I said, something that would get law enforcement called without much thought is, you know, violence. Um not uh I mean I don't want to say it's a common situation. But it is a situation that we're very familiar with is someone's super high. They're grabbing on to people, you know, maybe specifically women. Then another person in the crowd says, "Hey, she said hands off. Leave her the f*** alone." And that person gets hit, you know, and then they call the rangers and then we come in. And then sometimes they hit us, right? And and we're like, "Okay, um, let's get them let's get law enforcement over here." And unfortunately, you know, most most of the time unless something it's really egregious what they how they hit you like they broke your glasses and there's something in your eye you know for example but but other than that like if it's almost anything else right is just called simple battery and it is a misdemeanor and it is not arrestable unless it happens in the presence of law enforcement who's basically never there when this happens right so you end up with uh

saying will you please arrest this person that has hit three people including a ranger in the face and also before that that was groping this woman and they go, "No, I can't really do that." Right. So then we

Wow.

Okay. You know, we tried to pass that on to you and you didn't take it. So now we're going to kick them out, you know, or if they're too violent, they might go to Rampart to to the hospital there, take a nap for a while, and then get kicked out, you know?

Yeah. I mean, if someone's having like a kind of psych ic episode. I mean, yeah. I mean, like, do you have to like sedate them or do you have to like subdue them or something? I mean, it's like like who would do that? I mean, I'm sure medical will be like, "Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't wrestle people,

you know, like I said, like law enforcement."

Well, so rangers have done that. Um they they don't that's like really not what you want to be doing.

Yeah.

You know, and if you do that, you're going to you're calling law enforcement, you know, um before you do it kind of like call 911, then administer,

you know, to your scope of practice kind of thing. But,

um you know, rangers um have done that. We don't train people to do that. So, again, it's like what you walked in with and what you're comfortable with and we're not we don't order people to do that, you know, but if they're watching something happen in front of them, they're

using their best judgment on like the the reasonable standard, right, to say what

would be 12 people would agree is reasonable, you know, to have done in this situation given your scope of training. Um but, uh then it happened enough one year we Burning Man had been flirting with um bringing in some security people and so ultimately uh they did bring in Hierrock security which is a company that I am you know uh a co-owner of um but it was because that that community hierock came out of Burning Man in the first place right so it's like that was the origins they were Rangers and then they were Rangers and Gate and then they were Rangers Gate and DBW and um so it was like culture ly a fit. But my point was is that it was, you know, here's another uh duel, right, to it's not just luck of the draw who happens to be on a shift or on a scene or who has what training or you know what they feel comfortable to do right now. There's actually a group of people that um that's what they're there for is if you're like, "Yep, this is when need physical help with this." Or again, just presence, right? Because they show up and they're in a black uniform and that means more than a khaki uniform. And then then it chills out because of that. But

you know, and then law enforcement come is still there of course, right, as as a back stop to that.

Um,

but yeah, it's uh, you know, it's the stuff that you don't want to see in Black Rock City. And it is really rare, you know,

compared to any city, it's really rare.

Well, I mean, with any like group of people, you know, if they say, you know, they say out of everyund thou 100,000, it's like, oh, if there's like 10 out of 100,000 is like a sociopath or one out of a 100 thousand. I It's like if you have like a hundred people, it's like, well, that's nobody, you know. So, if you have 10,000, you're like, it's like maybe it's one, you know. We have 70,000. It's like, okay, now you have like seven of them, you know.

Yeah, maybe, you know. Yeah.

Um,

I mean, our I would say that the instances are lower than that, but um

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, like there are different levels, but you know, the ones that are like full-blown big problem kind of thing is probably two or three.

Yeah.

A year maybe.

I've also heard I can't remember what but maybe it's kind of fluctuated over the years but there's like black city

is like what like the third or fourth largest city in Nevada for like a oneweek period.

Yeah.

I think it's the fifth but yes for that one week

behind Reno Vegas and whatever.

But I mean in terms of like statistics for a city of that size I mean comparably just like

it's actually pretty pretty safe right? It is really. And when I was saying two or three, I was I meant the the violent ones that might need to actually be go hands-on with or be sedated or something. There's there's all levels of problems, but that's maybe around where we're looking for that.

Yeah.

And it's pretty much uh you know, say their

substance abuse or whatever, their inability to handle their high or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

In almost every one of those cases, they're kind of temporarily out of their mind. And whether they were

an a****** before that or not, we might, you know, not know at all. But it's actually very common too to have their friends say like this is not like him you know like this is

he's never like this like oh so there's a lot of s*** repressed in there you know it's coming out when he took cocktail of whatever

oh yeah

where people are off their meds right you know so you know there's there's a connection there to

well something also like a difference between any kind of like like law enforcement or or security or or or you know peacekeeper whatever like in in regular civilian life you know, if if you're doing like, you know, like the San Francisco Pride Festival or or San Janeiro Festival or or, you know, or whatever, it's like you're not dealing with, you know, a larger number of people who are altered, right? I mean, like maybe some people have been drinking, you know, if it's like as as a street festival in San Francisco or whatever, you know, but but it's like somewhere like Black Rockck City, it's like yeah, I mean, of 70,000 or so people, I mean, like there probably is a higher percentage of people who are who are drunk, who are high on like hallucinogens or drugs or whatever.

Something. Yeah.

Yeah. And and just also in terms of like with the rangers and their training, it's just Yeah. I mean, like how do you you probably have like much more experience dealing with, you know, with people who are are out of their mind, right?

Was that part of the training?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Well, you could get like advanced training in that. It's called green dot training, but yeah, it's part of the training. And you know, the the ethos that goes way back. You know, when I walked in that training in 1998, I think there was about 25 rangers that were there anyway. I mean, there was more that weren't there,

but it was not it was not a very big crew,

but um they all had their own life experiences and their own weird path that led them to Black Rock City, you know, and there was at that point the ESD was a part of the Rangers, too, right? So, it was um

medical, psych, fire uh you know what we call dirt ranger and just you know patrolling um skill sets that were you know built in. Um and you know I wanted to say that there was just some kind of at least for some of them it was kind of like oh you're kind of a psychedelic ranger you know like you you have experience in that space kind of thing right um or they were full-on clinical you know what I mean like they were like psychotherapist type person right and so you had the you know the whatever the different tools in your belt there that you that you know the experiences these people had. Um and um yeah there was a phrase it was like sharing the same reality

um and which at one point was referring to the community and the implication was that you know we weren't the you know the clean and sober ones necessarily in the corner um with our arms crossed not talking to anybody but then that became more realistically and and better to mean that we are sharing the same reality and we are not high while we were you know while we're on duty right it's like this is what we're

we're doing that's something you need to be you know uh be cognizant of because that is a key thing like rule

yeah

it was just funny I was just thinking about you were like oh yeah you don't want to like mess with the Rangers in black but like they should have the Rangers like in tie-dye it's just like yeah Yeah, that's

Yeah, it's funny when when so Gate used to be part of the Rangers, too, you know, as a department. Yeah. DMV,

lots of things have just sprung out from a need from the Rangers that we started it,

you know, kind of Rangers lead the way kind of thing in a in a army sense. But, um, Gate was, you know, was a part of our department and when it was like, oh, but they're going to be going out and searching vehicles and stuff, right?

And running tickets and taking money and what, you know, doing all this stuff. the gate does back then anyway. And um we're like, "Okay, so they should be wearing black t-shirts." You know, they they said that, right? They, you know, that subset of the Rangers was like,

"Yeah, we're going to have them in black shirts so that they're not confused with

the people that you really want to walk up to in Black Rock City and you know that's got to search my car or whatever, you know."

And then so yeah, then Hi Rock is they stand out as not rangers although some of them you know are were but um separate separate gig separate duty and their shirts say security on them, right? So, you know, you can have I don't really think this has happened, but you can have like can I talk to the nice rangers again instead of these guys, you know?

Yeah.

Good cop, bad cop routine.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, as needs be.

So, is Hirock they they still is that still part of they doing that like uh or is still there?

Yeah. Is that just kind of like on call kind of thing like They're not like patrolling around,

right? They are there's only five or so on at a time, like a lead and two pairs. Maybe maybe it's six,

but um yeah, they're they're just kind of on standby hanging out. They're, you know, it's not that they have to

sit in their car or whatever, but they they're not patrolling looking for any issues and they get dispatched by rangers. They don't self-dispatch and they cannot be called by law enforcement like in lie of calling the rangers, you know. So, they're they're like behind this firewall of their our resource, you know, um kind of like ESD is with the hospital vendor, right? Where

you go through their uh intake and then they escalate you to this resource if you need it to be.

But yeah, I'm not when whenever they're out there, it's kind of weird because other big events for Hierrock SA some anyway I should say not as much anymore, but I I am involved in helping plan and run the stuff like kind of high level of operations, but Black Rock City have nothing to do with that. you know,

I'm like in my own silo and like they're over there and they're a vendor and I say hi to them, but it's kind of weird.

How many Rangers nowadays are there like on like Black Rockck City?

There are uh you know on our roster I think maybe it's like 1500 plus, right? But um then that includes people who haven't been there in two or three years or

you know maybe a larger number for people who did haven't been there for 5 to 10 years or something. But there's deployed every year there's about 825 um that that show up that work shifts right that we feed that whatever you know.

So like on shift at any particular point like in a day or night I mean uh like how many rangers would there be just like floating around?

Uh well it uh ramps based on the the you know the op tempo of the city and the population but um

I would say like on Monday there's 20 to 25 and on uh you know burn night there's probably 40 to 50 not including the perimeter which is another 150 or whatever it is.

Mhm.

Um so that that they're on this detail right they're confined to that space right that's they're doing that one incident but the rest of the city has you know I don't know 40 plus running around that are

every worry about the burn kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um and then we have it, you know, it's scheduled in that way, right? Like where you you can see how many open slots there are as it ramps up and you jump into there and you get, you know, credits for working x amount of hours that go towards you getting a ticket or something.

And if you're a ranger on the play, like

are you ever really off duty? I just imagine if we're just like, okay, I'm not on my shift, but then like something's going down. like,

yeah. Oh, that can totally happen. Yeah. Um, and so some people, depending on how many hours they worked the year before, um, are issued in a radio for the event, you know, and we can only hand out so many of those because we don't have enough, right, to do that. And then there's the shift based radios for everyone else, and we have to leave that pool there for people who are going to only work few shifts.

Um, but so if you have the event radio, you know, and you're able to operate it, right? Which let's say you know you are messed up but you know we our people are pretty good on the radio. We drill down on that kind of thing of like I need this resource at this location for this reason right X at Y for Z but so we drill that down so you could you know people are decent at it and so yeah I mean if you and we encourage you if I'm going to give you this radio to carry around don't leave it in your tent for the next you know all the time you're off shift cuz otherwise you could just get a shiftbased radio. But and and you don't have to also please don't be a hero and obsess about listening to all this traffic and jumping around into our scenes when you're off duty. So like go ahead put it you know in your backpack and turn it off and if something is bleeding or exploding right in front of you then give us a call and give us your location and we'll get some on duty rangers to you. All right. So that's kind of how that works. But I mean I think a lot of the rangers are pretty good about you know taking their time going to Burning Man as they say.

Um and and uh having that I am not uh I don't know in the role that I'm at I'm not often hell a lot but um you know uh at least eight if not 12 hours every day you know being

I imagine like yeah like when you're off duty that you would probably just be like I'm taking off this shirt. I'm going to wear something that's purple.

H sometimes yeah sometimes not like I just whatever shirt People still know I'm a Ranger. They're still asking me questions or whatever. But, you know, out at our camp, we have a bar 107 lounge at Clock and Charlie, which is like whatever the Ranger Bar and Pier, whatever.

And so, that's like a good um place to blow off steam and it's whatever 50 ft from my trailer.

Um, and then, you know, try to force ourselves to get out and uh explore and have fun. But, you know, a lot of friends that I have there, I see them before and after the event, right? Um I

mean, I run into them during the event, but I don't have to go find them, you know, in the middle of a busy week just to hang out because I already kind of get that chance.

And so then, yeah, there's a little bit of like I I probably spend more downtime at my camp than what, you know, than what you would think someone, you know, would do, you know, to go go have some fun. I'm like, I'm having fun. I've been having fun for weeks before these people got here and I'll be here for weeks after they leave. So like I don't feel the pressure to like go see everything. I saw that art, you know, like when they were building it. So it takes a time constraint off of it. And um but yeah, like I said, maybe 12 plus hours off every day, but then people will come up and ask you a question or some little things you got to do.

Yeah. Well, also I imagine like if you're like patrolling around, it's like you you actually do get to see the city.

Totally. Right.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, now like that you're in in management. I guess it's like I mean do you actually still patrol around or

I mean I'm just on my way to wherever. Yeah. You know I I have a couple kids too, you know, with boys that are 14 and and nine currently

and or no 10 actually now. Um but so we take that out for a while too, right? And like kind of see it through their eyes and they see it being built too cuz we live here. But they they see some of that um happening in advance, but then then it's oh big and crazy and we take them out to go on art tours and stuff like that.

Mhm.

But yeah, I mean on my way to wherever I'm I'm seeing art and I'm also um patrolling not not really intentionally, but people will flag you down, you know, and be like, hey,

you know where this is or oh my god, there's something happening over there or whatever.

Yeah.

Um but I usually will try to whatever pass that off because we have a current chain of command going on, right? So again, I'm not going to insert myself into a bunch of things and try to be hero, but just call in to khaki our our dispatcher and say just got a report of this thing and then they take it from there.

Yeah. And another thing um I don't know for many years that's kind of like conversations with people like there's different types of people that would go to like an event or festival or regional or we're at Black Rockck City. Like I know there there's some people I always try and like hey I need help doing this and they would just be like I I don't come here to work okay like I'm coming here to have a good time. And then there's other people kind of like to hear what you're describing. It's just like so it's like no this is what I get out of it. It's just like I mean it's not like I'm coming here to work. Well well maybe you are.

I don't know you tell.

Yeah. I mean it's like it's funny because it's a good point of like what work is right. Um like so like most of the people that I know this is you know because most of the people I know are staff right but like on gate on rangers wherever um they are there to work like they they I I hear this said a lot like I wouldn't come here if I wasn't working, you know, cuz it's like that's the part of the event that I know. I'm used to having a vehicle and a radio for one, right? Not putting on my burner wig and getting on my cruiser and you know, whatever. So, like that is a common thing, but I would say that like it's community service, right? Um, and then sure it's it's work. I mean, it's hard, but that's really I mean, um,

the point of it is

if you were going to do it for pay, well, then you wouldn't do it here, right? Because it would make sense to work just about anywhere else in the world, right? Um, and then you also would have a different intention and motivation as to what you were doing it for, right? Which is um something else. So, to me, it's a lot about community service, you know, and like what, you know, kind of going back to like why are all these people hearing it, you know, like that whole thing, you know? know um

well I think it's different people for different reasons you know

100% y

but but also in terms of like like recruits for for rangers which I imagine each year that this probably must be like kind of a churn like some people kind of phasing out some people like phasing in but

I imagine it's probably like a self- selective thing right it is people probably like more interested in like you said like the community service because I mean I can't imagine there's like too many people just like I want a gun. I want a badge. I want to like f*** some s***.

Yeah, we bet for that. Um if they're smart, they wouldn't say that even if that's what they wanted, but um we definitely vet for that kind of person, you know, and there's a there is vetting. There's um you know, it's I have people saying, "Okay, how do I become a ranger?" And you're like, "Well, it's way too complicated." You know, like the way that things have evolved, like they just we've added a lot of steps and now we're trying to dial that back a bit, but you know, and I'll spare you all that, but basically they go to a training and then they can once they do that, they can sign up for a an alpha shift, which is where you would walk with some mentors um a series of three people, right? So, it's not like a personality thing

uh between you and the person that you just happen to be, you know, linked up with.

Um and they, you know, go through like kind of the practical application of the training and like now we're on the ground and like okay you go talk to that person right and just see how like how they interact and you know

what they're looking at and do they know where they are you know are they a liability to your team you know right now um and stuff like that and then there's basically an assessment right at the end of that of like okay do they got it you know or should they wait another year kind of thing right um and then If you uh you know if you pass the mentoring then you're made into a ranger and they you know whatever have you step across the line and you know um danger's old ritual thing.

Mhm.

And um then they can sign up for ships you know but yeah it's mostly self- selecting you know you can't you don't really nominate someone else to do it but we uh some of us anyway you know con our friends into doing it. if we think they'd be good. And I stopped doing that. Like it didn't take me very long to stop doing that of just being like, "No, they're going to they're self- selecting."

Yeah. Yeah. Then I imagine like past that point there must be some specialization to like you said there's like a green dot like we're helping out with people in the

Yeah, there's uh I don't know 30 some odd special teams, but within the ops branch

um that I'm the manager of is like there's I think maybe 15 some on special teams, you know, uh, one of them is intercept, that's the vehicle safety. One of them is the rapid night response that are on bikes and can kind of fastest thing in Black Rock City as far as responding to get somewhere and get the right resources, you know, there or, you know, just all the Yeah. specializations that um have developed, you know,

over time.

What about like say there's like

like a lost kid or something like that? I mean, like you would have someone who's just like, "Okay, they're really good with kids." Or or, you know, like they're very trusting, you know, or just say like a woman has like a a sexual assault kind of thing. It's like I imagine she probably would want to have like female rangers or or or I mean they have that kind of specialization too,

right? So, if it's sexual assault, you know, we have a group of people that are uh at a higher standard of training and more experienced called troubleshooters

and they make it so that the shift lead doesn't constantly have to go into the field and leave everything else and go be an escalation point for you know a ranger in the field but so they're they kind of they're kind of like sergeants or something they're in the middle of that you know um chain of command you know their escalation point and they're very familiar with the protocols right and and the must reports and these things that we have to do and what resources well they'll call khaki and khaki will say oh sexual assault that means x y and z right they uh will call um Black Rockck the ESD dispatch to get a specialized resource. Rangers, you know, they would send a green dot potentially, but um if it's like a serious thing like that, like a a sexual assault,

then they're going to end up talking to the crisis interventions team from um emergency services department. I'm trying to spare you, but I could put like five acronyms in that sentence, but you know, uh

there's a subset of crisis engine called the survivor accus which is part of MHB mental health branch of ESD but so that you get you the right resource basically too and if it is a true sexual assault because you know in Nevada what that means is penetration and it's it's commonly confused and they whatever but then law enforcement will also be notified and the survivor is presented with the option of whether or not they want to talk to law enforcement or not. Um and but yeah, it gets handled and then they may go for an exam, you know,

um to get uh whatever DNA and stuff.

But yeah, so you know, we're where the rangers are kind of like the bridge to make that happen to get send things down the right path.

Is that like is it all the action kind of dependent upon a survivor or does law enforcement? It's kind of like you know when they tow your car they be just like I touch the wheels, your car is getting towed. you know, like I mean if they're just like you called us out here, we're going to arrest somebody like

Well, usually they're, you know, can't, right? Like IDing and proving it was the thing. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's a good question. There's been a long back and forth over years with law enforcement about how to handle these things. You know, they want to um, law enforcement wants to interface with the survivor. which they refer to as the victim.

Um to say to offer them these resources say like I would like to take your name, take your statement, all identifying information about the asalent which rangers also want.

Um and then um and then I want to offer you these resources that are available to you, you know, through the county.

Um and uh it's not uncommon for the survivor to say don't want to talk to them, right? Um, for one reason or another, you know, people, these people have been traumatized and there's a big uh discrepancy on

how many assaults happen and I'm I'm talking about globally, not Burning Man, but and then how many get reported, right?

And then it's not super uncommon for um there to be a person who has assaulted multiple people and no one knows anything about them. So, they're serial predators, right?

Which is what we want to find, right? And remove them.

But So there's a there's a thing with that and law enforcement really wanted to be able to interface with each of the survivors and some of the survivors don't want to talk to them. So that left us nd in a bad position to you know say like well she doesn't want to talk to you. Well I insist that she does and so we have gone back and forth and worked that out trying to make a system that works to where everything gets satisfied you know and the thing is dealt with as best as it can be legally etc.

Yeah. Well I'm sure there's no There's no perfect system, right? And then there's there's also resources like the Bureau of Erotic Discourse too and just the whole concept of like the consent and just kind of like frontloading all of this, right? So we don't you don't want to be dealing this like you guys deal on the back end.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean for the people that you know want to do the right thing kind of like locks will you know keep it you know honest man honest but yeah I mean like or or people that are in their right head, you know, like people that aren't completely blown out in some way.

But yeah, all of that helps for sure, right? And having a culture of that. Um,

because when it's just, oh, someone's a little f***** up and someone else is a little f***** up, right? Whatever, then things can go sideways. And that that's where I think bad, you know, pure product discourse helps a lot.

I think even before it gets to like the realm of like the sexual like just in terms of like consent, like over like all of the years like I just I've had so many encounters with people just it's just in terms of like like people spiking people's drinks or like just like weird guy coming with like this like plastic jug like drink this you know I'm like what is that he's like it's fun time I'm like no no no thank you and another person like I want to drink that like no no you really don't want to drink it

or like you know my my good friend who like we had this bar and back when the age of like plastic cups like you know this the bar was just like literally the plastic cups and she was like really tired and she's like,

I just want to drink some water and I just want to go to bed, you know, and so she just kind of just grabbed like one of the cups and like drank it.

Wrong cup.

Wrong cup. Yeah.

16 hours later, you know, like

Yeah. Yep.

You know, but

there's a that's you know, good survival tips, you know.

Yeah.

Most of it most of all all of everything that could be pushed down to a level of personal resp responsibility, you know what I mean? Self radical self-reliance or what, you know, like it's not to say that we're not a community, but like

keep yourself alive and safe, you know, like have a buddy system, like know your chemist, like these these these tips. Yeah. Right. You know,

and then then call us if you need, you know, beyond that, right? Because the baseline is pretty good and we want to keep it really good or make it better. So,

yeah. So, like failing all of the other stuff, it's like we we're here for you. Mhm.

Yeah.

All right. Well, um I guess this gets us to our second question. Your your background. So, where did you you grew up? You said you grew up with like what? South Bay.

Uhhuh.

Yeah. Uh Edgelles got us. And then as soon as I could, I moved to Santa Cruz where I had constantly been driving anyway, you know what I mean? Um

and so yeah, as soon as I could move out after high school, I moved to Santa Cruz. Um, but yeah, that's that's the thing.

So, what'd you do? Like, you said you were in a band, but uh

yeah. Um I don't know. So, I mean, my my dad's kind of country grew up, you know, in Arizona and um so that was the way that I grew up, I guess, you know, and like we to to go somewhere where there was trees, you know, where you were outside we'd have to go for some drives, you know, and you'd take the hunting and things,

but um then I would find like the kind of little spaces in between in our area, you know.

Mhm.

Um and uh you know, explore that that stuff. Um and find the places where I could go that weren't you know, driving for 3 hours with my dad at 5 in the morning kind of thing.

Um and you know that my buddies were, you know, that's the kind of people I gravitated to. And um we, you know, some of the same friends, right, that I still have, you know, one of them was this guy LST that I mentioned.

Mhm.

Um um but we uh ended up so I I guess after I lived in Santa Cruz first, I moved back for a while for reset and you know do some more community college. college stuff and whatever. Um, and we me and my three other kind of best friends from like junior high through high school or whatever that I introduced to each other. Um, got a the apartment, you know, in this place that was not very far from my parents and we were living in this place, you know, it's ridiculous little spear you stories, but um,

we ended up like someone called us the Lost Boys, you know what I mean?

And it wasn't any reference to um the vampire thing, right? Initially, it was just this, you know, like from Peter Pan or something.

And we would go out at night and, you know, um go to these places in between, right? Go uh exploring storm sewers and go um up into the woods, you know, on the trails cuz the park closed at 1000 p.m. or whatever, right? And there's no alcohol out here even in the middle of the day or whatever. Well, f*** off. We So, we kind of felt like we owned the place after night, you know? I remember skateboarding down the middle of the street. just being like, "Yeah, so cool." After certain time, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Do whatever you want. Um, but so then I don't know then, you know, did trips and did things, right? And, you know, always wanted to I I I grew up playing music, right, and writing and um drawing and, you know, kind of artsy fartsy in one way, you know, and and totally not in other ways, but um but I, you know, we wanted to start a band and so we did. Um, and it was called Ruins, but that's that's what we did. And it ultimately got more places in Santa Cruz and was living there and playing music and taking trips, you know, doing dumb things and exploring and um, so it kind of just fit in with Burning Man ultimately, you know,

like even aware of like a cacophony like back then and like the stuff they were doing because it it sounds so like similar. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I didn't know anything about them. When I look back and I'm like, "Oh, we were doing that." But I mean, I don't know how I would have

I would have probably had to do that, felt even more driven to do that if I was like in San Francisco or Oakland or something, you know what I mean? Cuz I I was already feeling like suburbia in San Jose was

I got to get out of here, you know what I mean? Like I got to go find uh some nature, you know? And I was like anthropology student stuff, too. So, I'm like, we're just like this is um What are we doing here? You know, like buying all this s*** and you know, you know, it's totally disconnected from nature, you know.

Well, Spanish country right now, it's like you're you you live in Gerlac.

Mhm. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. And I love it here. And that's a big reason why I moved here. I felt like there was a I don't want to get out of the rat race thing, you know, and and you from a young age wanted to move probably from my dad, but wanted to move like out of what I thought was the city. It turns out it was just suburbia, right? But, you know, like to get out um somewhere else and get some land and not to own it, but I'm saying like to be adjacent to uh

Yeah.

land. And yeah, now I just feel very blessed, very lucky to live out here, you know.

How long you been living out there?

Um January of 2008 is when I moved out here.

Oh, okay.

So, whatever that is.

18 years I could take is my was born in February 2008.

Oh yeah. 18 years.

18 years. Wow.

Yeah. We like it. And there isn't the rat race. I mean, it feels um I don't know like the pace is pretty good, right? When we were when I was thinking and conning my wife moving out here.

Uh it was like there's there's time and space, right? These are the two

qualities that people try to achieve, right? At least in my was what I wanted. right? And um spend their whole lives, you know, trying to work towards is having time and space. Like let's just go get it, you know, like let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we are going to make a million dollars and then go buy time and space, you know, like just go there.

Yeah. Postpone your time in space till later.

Yeah. And I had that experience of like running into expats in Central America and things where it's like, oh, they just moved to where paradise was instead of like going there for two weeks with their family and spending, you know, $100,000. and you know sacrificing the rest of their lives to do that for two weeks.

Well, it's funny because like a number of years ago I I came up with this formula. It's like I go I haven't thought of this in the longest time, but uh what is it? The three happies, the four happies. It's something that's like it's like your your happiness will you'll truly be happy. It's like when you're happy with like it's like where you're living, like who you're with, like what you're doing.

Yeah.

You know, and and I think it's like happy with like yourself or something. thing cuz and I just remember like at the time just being like well I'm happy with who I'm with but not where I'm living and then he's like okay now I'm happy with where I'm living and who I'm with but not my job you know but then it's like you kind of like

totally

get like all of it together. It sounds like Gerlac you're just like well I love my wife and I I love where I'm living and I love what I'm doing you know it's like you know I feel pretty good about myself so it's like woohoo firing all

cylinders I do wish like there was I don't know like some of my friends more out here or you know like what not that I'm not friends with people here or that I want those specific people

to move from wherever to here but

just like there's a

I think there's on the girl sign when you come into town it says people wanted and then it has like a parentheses sometimes you know

but like you know like there's that right my wife grew up in LA where you know kind of like an experience in the Bay Area where if you want something it's right there you know you go

you go get it so she misses more more community, more social things, more options other than Bruno's to get food, whatever, you know. Um, but overall, like I'm very happy with the trade-offs of

Wow. Awesome. All right. Well, let's get to our last question here. Um, so yeah, the impact of Bernie man on your life or the influence in you, I mean, got you to move to Gerlac.

Yeah, right. It's a pretty big impact. I I guess I think um

Yeah. Um, well, you know, it's kind it's in some ways it just worked out to be uh an answer to lots of other questions that I had before this, you know, I don't know, sounds weird to say, but um of like what is community, you know, um like in in a more tribal sense than than what gets thrown about as like no you're talking about the marketplace right or the um

the political landscape or you know what I mean the that kind of thing like actual community you know

um

and even that like um that has great importance right it consists of these individuals that are all important and then collectively make a community but uh something else of like I was saying that I felt was answered by it. It was uh just communal effort, right? Um like what would you do if you had a community, you know, um civic responsibility in some sense? Again, not

not political, but um

social too and like uh within the Ranger context, it's like public safety,

you know, like that versus is what's nice to have. Well, you want that, right? Like let's start there, you know, um when there's a a threat or to something, right? Or a problem that gets

resolved via community, right? Um rather than like calling uh some other force in or whatever, right, to do it. Um

but you know, like some kind of unity too, you know. Um and then this thing too of and this this played all the way out into the like formation of hierarch too, but uh it's like Bernie man is a vehicle really to to something that's more important, you know, when people go it's just a cult, right? Or it's the you know, you're drinking the Kool-Aid or or whatever. Um you know, as a as a decent means to an end, right? Or a vehicle to to um say yes, we do actually have freedom of speech. We do actually have a right to assemble or doing it. You know what I mean?

Um we uh have whatever uh a means to uh to uh offer resistance to something that's that we don't agree with, right?

It's pretty diverse group of people if they don't agree with it, right? Um you know, as an alternative to like this uh consumerism or complacency, you know, or just do go along long. Um,

yeah.

But so then we had to protect what was there. I felt like that's that's an important niche that that uh I fell into.

What were you going to say?

Oh, no. I think it's just the whole um decommodification thing. I remember like like way that like Larry was kind of describing it like back in the day is that like commerce and like exchanging of money can just kind of like get in between people. It can get in between like relationships.

Yeah. And so then the whole idea of like a gift economy, it's just like not only you like, oh, you're taking out the and people nowadays think it's like, oh, it's like anti- capitalist or Marxist or whatever. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Like

it's it's more about like removing these barriers between people so we can get to what's really important, you know? It's it's like I mean,

yeah,

people like connecting with each other.

I think that's totally it, right? It's um people bring something that brings people together, right? Like I was not saying as a vehicle, but like you know for a good end, right? If they're if their motivation is to make money off of you, then you know at least at least it's simple. You know why they're there,

right? But then when someone actually cares or offers you something, you know, uh you provides something for someone that that there it's not logical, you know what I mean? It's it's actually compassion or whatever you want to say. Well, if something is

what's real, you know?

Oh, yeah. But like if something is like is for sale is you mean like socially like how durable is that? You mean like something which I keep keep coming back to like when I was talking to Coyote and I was like we're going over like how many years been doing this? How old are you? And I was like you realize you've been doing this more than half your life and he was just like

what like and it's always kind of one of my follow on questions is just it's like what gets what keeps you coming back you know cuz

if it's like if it's all just a big party

or if it was all just about like money, you know, like like how adorable is that,

you know? It's like would you really keep doing it like with like 40 years later,

right? I mean, that's Yeah. back to like intention and motivation and all that. Um I think it's like, you know, from from my perspective from the Ranger thing is like it's protecting that

core, you know, not to say, oh, that's entirely pure or whatever, right? Like because like you said, there's there's lots of motivations why people would be there,

but the idea, you know, that uh the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and that, you know, that there there's this momentum and that um you know, it's it's not about you, which is another Ranger um maxim. You may think it is and that may motivate you to do certain things, but ultimately it's not, right? And the the greater, you know, sum is what what matters, right? And so that's one thing that keeps me coming back, you know, and this kind of that I think a lot of suckers fall into of like should make it, you know, as good as we can at the time that you're in it.

Mhm.

Uh and then someone will carry it forward, but it could always be a little bit better. So, you just keep, you know, um engaging, you know, to to do it, you know, and also figuring out what's next, which is a big kind of thing for some people like um including me like what what is next, you know? Um Yeah. So, what is next for you? I mean, you're just like I mean,

no idea.

You're still there in Gerlac and we like three years from now and be like, "f*** this. I want to live next to Disneyland." And

yeah,

I want the city again.

Yeah.

No.

Uh, no, not at all. Um, and I think that, you know, like I have ideas that were, you know, a lot of them are old ideas of what I thought I was going to do be from before, you know, before I took a little whatever it is, 27year, you know, shortcut to nowhere. Um, but um, yeah, that's that's I I don't know exactly what it is, but, you know, I really am like want to stay where things are real, you know, and I I want to focus on what is real, like nature and people and, you know, um, community and that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Um, so Well, I think one thing's clear. You got to get the band back together. Ruins

and you got to finish that tour that started.

Yeah. Getting the band back together.

Yeah. It's like we still have nine more days on our trip.

Yeah. Yeah. I just got a flash in my head of when Blues Brothers when she says, "Are you law enforce?" She's They say, "No, no, ma'am. We're musicians." You know, "Are you?" "No. Oh man, we're musicians. But yeah, you know, I mean, I think of that. I think of, you know, career-wise, I could draw some more stuff. Like, I used to be a designer and whatever. Um, still, you know, uh, like I said, I feel blessed. I'm pretty happy with where we are, what we're doing. You know, it's pretty weird to to really fully understand the cycle here and be like, "Oh, yeah." Because there's people in town with bumper stickers on their cars that say, "Is it October yet?" You know?

Um, And you know, I feel I get that. Yeah. Right.

Like, is it over? Um,

but now I'm in part of Nevada Operations, which is year round out here. But yeah, there's that. And then also there's a thing of like, well, why the hell are we here? You know, when when it's really in the doldrums, you know, winter and stuff. And then you're kind of glad everyone's coming back too, right? And you're like, yeah, I mean, this is this is going to become the most creative place, you know, um, in the world for that week. And it's on this timeline that we're very familiar with and then they're going to pack up and then we're going to clean up and then they're going to go and

then we'll go back into winter again. But

that cycle is pretty ingrained in our family, you know, and our

and you know, with keeper, my wife who's the principal of the local school and with our our boys um you know what, you know, you going to build Tokyo yet? And yeah.

Oh,

yeah. I don't know. Or no, what was the question?

Oh. The impacts. The impacts.

Yeah. No, I think you've pretty well answered that. I mean, uh, where are we going? Let's see about an hour and 22 now. I remember the the email before you were just like, I don't know. I don't really talk about a lot of stuff. And so, I was like, I don't know. It got on actually a little over than I normally do. But, uh,

good.

Yeah. Some people are put you on the spot. They're like, tell me about your craziest thing, you know, or just like you're like, I don't know. You know,

nothing's coming to mind. All right. Well, uh, thank you so much for the interview. This has been awesome.

Yeah. Thank you, Andy. It's good to see you again.

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