EP 77 John Jennifer Marx

Episode 77 with John Jennifer Marx is out now! Meet John Jennifer Marx who discusses the cultural significance of Burning Man as a social experiment rather than just a massive party. The conversation explores the event’s origin as a response to the human condition, suggesting that its principles offer a "forward-looking perspective" on how to organize society through participatory art and radical self-expression. John Jennifer emphasizes the importance of embracing paradox, arguing that the event's strength lies in balancing individual ego with communal care and kindness. John Jennifer presents Burning Man as a proof of concept for a future where humanity prioritizes creative community and optimism over rigid, agrarian-era power structures.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That change is what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host Andy, the avantgard artist from New York. No, that Andy. Today our guest is the one and only the John Jennifer Marks, welcome.

Thank you, Andy. Happy to be here.

So, I'm trying to remember like how how I got in touch with you. I think you had commented on something else and and we we had like a brief like interaction that I was like,

well, you have such a absolutely delightful cast to characters that you've assembled for the podcast. And so, I somehow I saw it on Facebook or Instagram and it was like cuz you know, normally you got to go, oh yeah, okay. And then you go to the next thing, you go to the next thing and it was like and the graphics were really beautiful and compelling. So it was kind of like hm this looks kind of interesting. So I'd then dig in and and it's also not the usual characters too.

Mhm.

So there's some people you know that go a little bit before. There's people that go off tangentially. There's people that maybe some people have heard of but not everybody's heard of. And so there's something really intriguing by that. And so I think I probably started commenting on a couple of them. And then and then you You you you picked back you picked up on that right away and then we started a dialogue. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just funny because I don't know there's not much rhyme or reason. Okay, we're peeling back the the covers to have the audience like like but um in terms of like getting guests, it's kind of more of like like one person leads to another person like leads to

Oh yeah. Well, it's a network. It's community which is kind of classic Burning Man.

Like Burning Man. Yeah. Yeah. And so So I'll, you know, in the beginning was just kind of people I I knew and then and then they would cuz some people they they see like oh shadow of the man like ooh ooh that's dark you know it's all about people who want to like you know b**** about burning man and I was like no no no no it's more about like how how has Burning Man impacted people over time, right?

Well, you need you need to let people b**** about things too, right? It's

they can talk about whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a nice balance. It's basically your story, you know, cuz I I want to have on just like a diverse cast of characters like people old and young and and and you know, black and white and women and men and I mean just and everything in between, you know, and just to get as broad a spectrum as possible just to answer this question of just

like what are we doing?

What are we doing? Why are we doing it?

Why are we doing this? Like why would you come back year after year? I mean I posted this thing on because Marian and I talk every once in a while and

and she's a very unsung kind of job, you know.

Oh my god. Yes, she Yes.

Go on about that later. But um I don't know. People were like on social media were just like but it's just a big party. What's the big deal? You know, it's just like why are you guys doing all this? It's like why are you calling it a movement? Like why are you doing all this yearround stuff? It's like why are you doing that? You should just be like, you know, you should just set up the party, let people party, and then clean up from the party and and I posted something where I was like, well, if this all was just one big party, like why would this been going on? Why would people dedicate their lives to this? Why would you do this for like 40 years? Like would anyone in their right mind?

Well, on a on a vast world epic level, if it's a giant party, then we're on the deck of the Titanic, right? And and the thing for me is instead of being on the deck of the Titanic with the party. I want to be in a different ship that's actually going into the future based on everything that we've been doing for the last 40,000 years as human beings.

Yes.

And so if you look at that and I think Larry took that point of view. If you look at that and also I think cacophony folks did the same thing. You know, it's like it that the the emergence and the evolution of Burning Man in its in its going in and out, you know, in with cacophony, out with cacophony. I mean, it's it's an interesting it's an interesting story that a lot of people don't know or hear about me partygoers. But the thing about it is is it's a response to the human condition.

Birdie Man is intentionally very specifically and I like to say it's a social experiment gone arai

in a in a good way. I mean obviously there are some precedents. There's the urban idod which a lot of people haven't heard of but that's an important one. One of the better ones brides of march one of my absolute favorites. Jennifer goes

in my Jennifer mode I go now it's now it's like four blocks from my house so I can't not go and uh and but also um Santaacon and so you know there have been some good things and some you know questionable things so

it's been in the news lately you've seen

yeah well there was there was there was thankfully there was some some rebalancing of the narrative in the sense that that people just see it as the giant party again right

yeah So just

the whole thing going back to the well going back to the giant party.

Oh yeah.

The idea is Santa Con is a giant party now

and and you could say well you know it had you know you might want to look at why Santa Con started and what was the basis of that and and so I think in some ways uh it takes a group of people that and in Senakon's case I would argue that it it it's sort of it's it's sort of lost its original mission but I haven't seen the movie. I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. It was great. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, was it great?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and and it's it's many of the same cast of characters, you know, they might be off on different extremes and different versions of things. I mean,

there's another person of of um fluid gender, Chris Radcliffe, that was part of that that was never really part of Burning Man so much.

Yeah.

As far as I know. I mean, there's a great picture of Chris in a dress with a with a

with a Oh, I was like, "Wow, he looks really good in that dress.

He looks amazing. He looks amazing." Yeah. And and and and if you dig into those stories, I mean, Chris's story, he wrote online. I mean, there's a whole thing that he wrote about his experience of being not your normal gender. And I I actually don't know is I don't he's not transgender because he never transitioned fully,

but there's so many nuances to gender. I call myself twin gender

and and maybe maybe Chris was twin gender, which is the similar non-binary is similar to third gender. So, we're exploring, you know, like we don't have to come up with one word. Maybe there's going to be 20 different categories. Maybe we should stop being so binary about everything.

Yeah.

You know, all these kinds of things. Anyway, so the thing is though,

back to back to Asan and and the party group.

Um there are folks from time to time that feel like maybe the world needs a little help and and and maybe if you do something And you you do a little experiment here and you do a little something over here because because none of us

can rule the world, you know,

or at least at least none of us I I I believe at Bernie man, not well, not all the people who go to Bernie man, you know, want to give up their souls to become politicians and change the world. Now, not that all politicians give up their souls, but let's say that on average, and it's certainly in the political climate we have today, it's very

divisive and difficult.

You definitely pay price.

You pay a price. Yeah. And so so so the the idea of changing the world or or or at least rebalancing the world comes from a different perspective with Bernie man. And I think it's a unique perspective and I think it's a forwardlooking perspective.

So the perspective of let's have the politicians fight it out. That's sort of let's say old school. Old school to me meaning the entirety of the agrarian era of humanity. Yeah.

Based on let's fight it out, right? And and so so Bernie man says I mean you know you there there is there is the idea of of there's a Bernie man angle and a little and especially a cacophony angle to fight club right.

So so there but Burning Man since we're you know we're trying I at least I you have to help me kind of refocus on Burning Man sometimes but

Oh yeah.

But at least with Burning Man the thing is is is it's it's about looking at the world in the different way and it's about commun for me. Bernie man is Bernie my my little quick quote is Bernie man exists in my world Bernie man exists to encourage you to embrace community and kindness through participatory art and and I would submit

yeah I like that

that if you can do that you will change the world in such fundamental ways that it won't matter if we're in a capitalistic economic system or a communistic e

Yeah. The mechanics of how you get there. Yeah. Yeah.

It's all about what the people what's in the hearts of the people. Any of those systems can work in theory. In theory, communism sounds great. I mean, my last name, right? I know. I I've done a little bit of research because my last name's the same as the famous Carl Marx.

Oh, I thought it was the comedian.

Oh, well, there's both. This is the Bernie man crowd. It's like you can you can Yes, I'll have both. Please.

You're that communist comedian, aren't you?

And the communist communist comedian. Yes. And

Karl Mars was the biggest joker of all time.

Of all times. Well, weirdly weirdly, my father was a college professor. So, guess his name and guess what he taught.

Carl.

Yes.

Uh, pottery.

Economics.

So, my father was an economics professor named Carl Mars with a K.

I wonder But people like the the freshman thought when they kind of came into the class and sat down for the first day, we were just it's like we know what we're getting into.

A little like Well, he wasn't uh he was he taught macroeconomics and microeconomics.

Well, I'm sure it was entirely different what they thought it would be like. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, suffice it to say, one of the his problems was he he he wasn't able to publish much.

Fortunately, he was able to get tenure. Yeah, I know. Uh he was able to get tenure before the publisher parish concept became became the rule of academia.

So he was he was an absolute dedicated you know teacher and um and and I remember uh him bringing students over once in a while or talking about students and and he brought some students over from the Middle East one time and this is before OPEC and before they realized they could just like do it themselves and I swear to God they were talking about like you could just do this yourself. And this is how an e an economist would would tell you what to do, right? And they were like,

really,

really like, okay,

well, I I think that, you know, sometimes, and this is a Burning Man theme, sometimes, you know, you just need to learn to do it yourself. If you don't like the table over here that's been around for 40,000 years, just start building new tables. And that is a new table. And

yeah, like one of the the beauties of like the the about Burning Man Band, whether it's Black Rock City or even like regional events. It's like it's almost like a like a permission structure like people kind of go into it thinking, you know, like, oh, I'm just kind of self-contained. It's just like or I I couldn't do that or I'm not an artist or I'm not that. But it's like it gives you the freedom to be it's like you could be an artist or you could be a different gender or you could be all these different things. But people I think they're just kind of like in their box, you know? life like yeah

yes instead of making rigid boxes whether it's pink and blue gender boxes or whatever the boxes are

you know Bernie man celebrates the differences and the similarities where whereas like architects so I'm an architect architects uh I went to I I go to this conference the world architecture festival and one year to illustrate a point I took a picture of like the lunch scene and the lunch scene is just all these tables and all these little areas, you know, where people are kind of snacking on stuff that the vendors provide you for free kind of thing.

And and so there's a couple hundred people. I take the picture and I go

later when I show it to people, I go, "Tell me which one's the artist."

And they go, "Uh." And you start looking. We So architects, we're supposed to be the creative imaginative profession, right? And we do these we we build cities, we design buildings, we do all this kind of stuff. Um we dress within 3% of each other. It's like It's all black. I'm wearing black right now talking to you. Um uh it's all black. It's all understated. It's all Yeah, but just you've got a t-shirt with vibrancy. So, I've I've been I've been I've been bucking that trend now. I've got this great artist collective that makes uh jackets in New York

called Snowmill. And these things are amazing. I'm just I'm in heaven now. I've waited 67 years for somebody to make jackets like this. uh you know made by hand.

Uhhuh.

Uh and with provocative statements on them like the the latest one is words hold power. Choose them carefully. Think before you speak. I love that. Right. You know

that's great. Yeah.

And it's a beautiful jacket. It's multicolored. It's any anyway I'm going off on a tangent but uh as I will do.

Yeah. Well, how about let's uh go start back. back to the beginning. Uh, so what was the first time you'd ever heard of Bernie man? Like what what had actually gotten you to go out to Bernie man?

Uh, I'd heard of Bernie man ages and ages ago.

Um,

uh, not not in 1986. I don't think I'd heard of Burning Man in 1986. Although, interestingly enough, other weird little factoid. So, my wife and I are going to be celebrating our 40th anniversary.

Wow. Congratulations.

On June 21st, of this year, which is also literally the same day as Bernie man's 40th anniversary.

Oh, really?

The same day. Yeah. Not not that that means anything, but it's just kind of fun.

Fun fact. So So So what happened was I'd heard about it. Um I've always been somewhat involved in the arts, but you know, as an architect, we work way too much overtime. We focus way too much on all the things it takes to build a building. And so it would be little things, you know, And uh I used to my wife went to the art institute. A lot of my friends went to the art institute in San Francisco. So uh there was a whole Burning Man contingent over there. David Bestast is a graduate of the Art Institute.

Mhm.

And uh and so for a while there was um in the early days. So uh so I'd heard of it and then in about let's see uh 201 let's say 12 or so I wanted to go. I bought a book. Um, it might have been Ply on Fire. I don't know. It might have been Stuart Hardy's book, but there was a book.

I got it in the bookshelf somewhere. But, uh, I bought that and I had it hanging around the the house and my daughter who was probably 30 something at the time. Uh, she looked at it and she goes, "Dad, like why do you have a book on Burning Man?" And I and I go, "Because it's really interesting, you know, look at all the art. She goes, "You know what they do there?"

I go, "Act like human beings

cuz you know your your children put you on this pedestal like like your parents never have sex and you you you know they don't do anything wrong. They never lie. Well, you know, we do all these we're all human, right?

So, we started talking about it and we decided we were going to go.

So, this would have been in like, you know, 201 12 or 13. So, we tried for three years to go

and we could never get tickets, you know. We go online and it's like nothing, nothing, nothing. So then I'm hanging out at a retreat with a with a new friend.

Mhm.

You know, named Matt Cheney. So Matt Cheney uh is was part of founding Black Rockck Solar back in the day.

Oh.

And he's also still part of Black Rockck Labs and he's a clean tech finance person. Right. So uh so anyway, so the thing is is uh we're talking and shooting the breeze and so to speak. And so, you know, we go, "What are you doing this summer? What are you doing this summer?" And and I start rambling off something and he go and I go, "What are you doing?" And he goes, he goes, "I'm going to Burning Man with my daughter." And I go, "What?" I go, "I've tried for three years to go to Burning Man." And Matt at this point in time had been to Burning Man six times. Matt was part of the group that did Greenman,

right? Matt Matt and his group

uh that was I think That was before Black Rock Solar. Matt and his group provided all of the infrastructure, all the technology to do green man.

Mhm.

And and so so Matt's, you know, talking about this and he goes, he goes, "You're going to go with me with my daughter cuz I sent my daughter." So it was like the daughter father trip.

Mhm.

So So this is where my entry point into Burning Man is kind of upside down.

So what year was that? Like

2015. Yeah. Okay. So, so Matt's an interesting Matt's a character for sure, right? Like many people are at Bernie man. And and so unpredictable, unreliable, passionate, brilliant, you know, all of these things. And so I wasn't quite sure that we were going to actually make it to Burning Man if but you know, he kept he kept saying, "No, I got the tickets and now I got to work this thing out and you know, we're gonna we can only stay like four four days. We can't stay the whole time." And I'm like, "I don't can't I don't understand why, but I don't care. Like, we're going to Burning Man, right? So, we rent an RV and off we go, right? And it's great. So, so what happens is we start late. We're supposed to just leave at noon. I think we leave at like 7:00 at night. So, we get to Burning Man at 3:00 in the morning.

And and and and it's it's all all kinds of adventure along the way. I mean, it was like, you know, we get to the gate and it's like you have the wrong tickets and you got this, you got that and it's and it's like well so so we finally Matt finally cuz Matt knows where to go at 3:00 in the morning. So Matt parks his the RV

in the in the the semitruck trailer parking lot for Artica,

which is a huge no no.

Thou shalt not park in that service yard. cuz that's where the trucks back up to go to get into the thing.

Yeah.

So, so we're you know right off of center camp, right?

So that's where he parks cuz you know it's dark and he knows where to go but it's dark and it's 3:00 in the morning so he's not going to wake people up going where am I supposed to put this RV.

So So come 7:30 or 8 in the morning and there's the four of us, right? You know, kind of sleeping in the RV. We've been up all day. Like we're all crusty and you know we're sleeping.

Mhm.

Bam. Bam. Bam. Bam. Bam. Matt. Matt, you f****** a******. Bam. Bam. Bam. And And and and so Matt gets up. And he's all crusty, too. You know, it's like and we and we get he opens the door and he goes, "Marion, it's so great to see you." So, where are we supposed to be? supposed to be in first camp, right?

Uhhuh.

So, my first moment at Burning Man on literally, you know, kind of at Burning Man was Marian screaming at Matt and then and then in classic in classic Bernie man Marian fashion, Marian's like, "Oh, hi. Hi, how are you? Who are you?" You know, and she's really sweet. And then it's like, you know, to Matt cuz she's got these she's got she's got an emotional range, let's call it, right? If somebody has She has an emotional range. She can be so sweet and empathetic and wonderful. And she can be, you know, fierce.

Firm, strong,

firm, strong, fierce. Yeah. Yeah.

So, is she like code switching back and forth like two different like she knows Matt's mis but but as it turns out, Matt Matt misbehaves all the time and that this is a bit of their relationship, right?

And and I mean, you got to imagine with Burning Man, you got you got to be able to be nice to people that you can be nice to. And sometimes you've got to be firm and strong and and and you know have

Yeah.

It's also that's just a time of relationship that sometimes people have. You know, it's like you could ri each other. You can be raw with each other and and then just

call each other all sorts of names and then fall down in the dirt laughing together.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Totally like that. That that's that they they have that

that relationship. So anyway, so that's my entry point, right? into to Bernie man and and for whatever reason we we are going to be in our our 10th year in the same camp.

So it's it's an interesting perspective to be in that camp especially that long.

So 2015 after like a number of years the the soldout years you couldn't get a ticket and finally you land smack dab in first game.

Yes. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. The world works in strange ways and so You know what happened though was was it started a whole which might be your third question um it started a whole level of engagement but at at a different level than than for most people. So so I started working with people in development.

Uh so I don't know if you ever met um a woman named Cupcake which could be any of a couple thousand women likely at Burning Man with a client named Cupcake but

Teresa Duncan. So anyway so so Burning Man as you went to the party, why can't we just have the party and clean up after it? Why does why does the Burning Man have to have a mission?

So, so if you if you start to understand the mission and you want to embrace it, you want to help it, it takes resources beyond just people's time, it it takes resources to support the regionals. It's takes resources

to get to get an appropriate message out there, which isn't like come out party, dude, you know, so so you know, to balance it all out and it takes resources, you know, to do burners without borders and to do fly ranch and to do all sorts of things that that further the mission,

but the mission has many different aspects. There's that part of the mission which is the formal part that comes through the organization, but the real power of the mission and the real power of Burning Man is all of us.

Oh yeah.

So, so I've met a a full range of people and partially through first camp and partially through friends of mine. So, so which goes from from Jerry James

Jerry and Larry on the beach, right, to John Law to all of these people in between

and and what's fascinating is to have to find out how many people say they founded Burning Man. But to me, in classic Burning Man fashion, the more people that say that the better it is, right? I mean,

they themselves had had founded Bernie man.

Because Bernie man because Bernie man wasn't just Jerry and Larry on the beach.

Yeah. Yeah.

They they well they had an idea and they didn't have the idea that it became right. So So in that evolution that evolution the cacophony input mattered in that evolution the cacophony aspect going away mattered. It mattered what happened in 97 when And when when Marian and Harley and Will and Crimson and and D well, Danger Ranger was already part of it and Larry all formed together what they call the the the cultural founders.

Mhm.

And and but the but the reality is the people that participated that did things that that that that put in the time and put in the effort, they're huge. I mean, the the six of them, the two of them, I mean, it it went from Larry and Jerry, let's say, I mean, there's So many different stories about how this happened.

So like like if you talk to Flash, you know Flash?

Yeah.

You talk to Flash, he'll give you a different version of Larry and Jerry on the beach.

My favorite like the quote about Flash is so many people told me this. They're like if you're like don't ever talk to Flash was like he's got a lot like everything that he says he's done. It's like it's really Dana Albany that did.

Well, Dana is Dana.

I actually interviewed Dana like a little while ago that she was like laughing her ass off.

Dana is is like the definition of a goddess.

I mean, not not not not just that she's, you know, physically beautiful, but but just as a a heart and her soul and her.

But going back to what you're talking about like like everybody claiming, you know, just like I started this, I started like uh you know, I listen to their stories. You listen to their stories and they made significant contributions. Right.

I think everybody did.

But it takes a village, right?

Exactly. So, so, so So it's important and to to and people you know have have written some books and have given some acknowledgements but in the end in the end none of the individual names matter and I think Larry would be the first to say you know it it it's it's we we we we created a spark

and and then we guided the spark the best we could

and we're still guiding the spark you know the community The org is guiding the spark. But but ultimately the spark has to be the people. It has to ignite people to be their best selves.

Yeah.

And

but I think there's a kind of a dichotomy here too where it's like yes I mean it does take a village and and like Bernie man wasn't just sprout from Larry's loins in the beach. And

on the other hand without Larry there would be no Burning Man.

Yeah. All this cast of characters including

like Marian's unique person. ality.

Oh yeah.

If it wasn't there,

each of the six each of the six balanced each other out in weird and wonderful ways

and not always and not always pretty, but that's Burning Man, right?

Well, it's life. We're all human.

Well, yeah. But I mean, you know, the thing is is we need to we need to embrace this idea of there's a couple of things we need to embrace. One of them is this idea that we're all human

and that and that we're all special and some of us get opportunities. We're in the right place at the right time.

Mhm.

And we push something. We We fight for it. Larry pushed something. He fought for it. He fought hard.

It It was difficult. I mean, all kinds of things could have happened. He could have failed in in6. He could have failed in 97. He could have failed. I mean, you know, and and

he could have given up and walked away.

He could have Yes. He could have done some easier things, right?

Yeah.

Um so, but he didn't. He persevered. And And to the people that that did, you know, that have walked away from other things or even for Burning Man. That's also part of the human condition, you know, like

but also other people got inspired and came along for the ride too. But also that's that's part of the reason for for doing my show is like I I I want I don't just want like people's like perspectives, but I also want people to kind of like, you know, but like oh this is an opportunity for you to tell your story and there's so many hidden stories behind the scenes like we were saying like there's so many helping hands that helped to I mean back in the day with the big rope like raising the man Oh, right. Yes.

You know, like it's called

who came up with the idea and who, you know, who organized that thing and how did they organize it and how and and and there's Rod Garrett, right, with Rod's Road and it's like there's so many people.

There's thousands.

There's thousands and and when I when I talk to those people, I mean, there's a little bit of ego to it, but but more often than not,

I mean, you know, but that's human, too, right?

Ex. Exactly. That's the one thing people forget about Britney is that we are human and that we're subject to human nature.

Yeah. Oh, Larry was no saint. I mean, nobody nobody nobody that I know

is a saint. I mean, you know, there's some people that come close, but but you know, you're talking about onetenth of oneth10th of 1%.

Mhm.

So, so all the rest of it, but this doesn't excuse bad behavior. It just means that, you know, we're not all

we're we're we are a balance of success.

Yeah. We're not devils and we're not angels. We're human.

Well, and but but But some of us, some of us are a little more damaged than others and some of us need a little more help.

Well, I think also just the nature of of the whole endeavor, it's like it it I I was thinking some to some degree like it almost attracts people who are kind of damaged in some sense, you know, and it provides something for them to grow, right?

Well, just like we were talking about, you know, Bernie man Bernie man embraces your quirky self, right? But it also embraces community. So, so it's not it's not like a a pure libertarian like do do whatever you do whatever you want don't care about what that would be John that would be Ian Ran's version in Colorado right there was a there is a there is a version of Burning Man that's written down from Iron Rand right and and they all go out and they do this bubble in Colorado right

the effic Yeah was atlas Right. And no, no, but this is important because you know there's there's Larry's view which would not be that, right? Because Larry's view would have compassion in it. Larry's view would have well to the degree that anyone can speak about Larry, right? Like I I it's you know I'm so I would say my view of Larry channeling Larry is the best I can do, right? Because I knew Larry but I didn't know him well enough to know like

So you went in 2015, you landed in first camp and then Like and so did you what was your experience from from that point on? Like were you just kind of like in the kind of center of bring?

Well, so so the thing was the my first experience so so people talk about often times this epiphany they have right they go to Bernie man and it's like

the world could really be this way you know and they they come back changed right just like that. So so I've been a but I think part of that is is these people people were not are not generally that have that epiphany were not generally practicing artists. So I've been a practicing artist, poet, architect for 45 years, right?

So or or if I go back to when I decided to be it'd be 60 years.

So I've been doing this for 60 years. So that was not my epiphany. Although that's a beautiful epiphany when you see that happen with people.

But my epiphany is and it goes back to the little story I told you about architects all dressing the same. My epiphany was what happens when 70,000 people are being self-expressive? And I was amazed because because you wander around. I mean, you know, I'm San Franc I live in San Francisco. I have all these friends. I'd say, you know, I'd say, you know, 5% of them are really truly self-expressive. Otherwise, otherwise they're kind of in a conformist thing. You go to Burning Man and it's like the the crazier, weirder, stranger more authentic self you are, the more people are are embrace that.

And at the same time, you feel like you're at a community of of of creative people of of of people that are outside of the realm, but you realize this is a safe place.

It's welcoming and it's also kind of challenging when people kind of like like what what can you do? Almost like the Capital One, what's in your wallet, you know? That's like

Yeah. So you can't just be the passive observer for very long. It's like I think your first year you can be the passive observer and then then you sort of have to commit

which I did. Right. So I made art three times.

Oh.

Uh we're also the the proud stewards of a legacy, a Burning Man legacy. I think a true Burning Man legacy. So I want to build it up so then when I show it to you, you go, "Oh yeah." Okay.

Um so so what I say stewards is is I didn't design this. We turned it electric, right?

Okay.

But because it was dying, but we are we are the stewards of the rocket car.

Oh, right.

Wow. Yeah.

So, there's a picture I took on Play. There's a woman who who wears the balloon on her head and dances.

Oh.

Carries around a little battery powered um leaf blower to blow up the balloon.

Not helium or anything. It's it's it's just normal air. But but the thing is, you know, there are things that are important to preserve and and there's well so I got into it you know the the the second year I started to get into it philosophically um I didn't write a poem about Burning Man for three years

but then when you start you know there's all sorts of things and it weaves its way this idea so so for a person like me it's an endless thing to think about because it's a challenge of looking at the way the world has organized itself

at at least if we should always put this in quotes. It's like in the west

because I've been to Bernie man events. I've been to there there's a thing that was called the the Bernie man convening that was at Eselon.

Oh yeah.

So I went 2018 and 19, right?

And in 18 you know it was just a group whole group of people and it was lots of classes and lots of together moments and heard Flash tell some really amazing stories with um uh coyote around the fire pit, right? That kind of stuff. I mean, it would just it was beautiful. And but then the next year in classic Burning Man fashion, people would would complain about, you know, the classes. So So what they did was they say, "Okay, this year we've heard your input and this year we we we want proposals from all of you to be able to come. If you want to come back, you have to do a proposal and you have to do a workshop." And so I got selected. They didn't select everybody, but but they got selected and myself and Maya uh Zuckerberg and or Zuckerman and um um oh god um her ply name is real girl uh Debbie Van Hume. So we did a thing on creative communities.

So so if you've ever had that question why can't we live like this year round? Creative community is an answer to that.

Ah

and so that was a Bernie man inspiration a thing that came out of Bernie man that did directly affected my profession. Uh, and so much so I did a I did a design competition in Saudi Arabia for a thing that's called the cube. So I don't know if you know your your Saudi Arabian design competitions. The the famous infamous one is the line and it's it's a 1,000 foot tall mirrored glass ribbon that's about 300 feet wide and 1,000 feet not 300 feet wide. It's it's probably about 100 feet wide and And it's about it's about a 100 miles long.

Oh, I've heard of this.

Okay, that's the big one. We We competed on a different one called the cube. But the cube was fascinating because it was a portal to the metaverse.

So imagine a cube that's,200 ft high and it's hollow inside

and it's it's a it's a giant hollow deck for anybody that knows their their Star Trek lore, right? But but basically it's covered with LED screen. So, it's like a giant version of the sphere in Las Vegas,

except that it's interactive. It's not a a stadium seating thing. You can fit

you can fit 30 spheres in Las Vegas into the cube.

Ah,

but the creative community part. So, that was fascinating, but that wasn't the the thing with creative community. Creative community part, we had to design a city of a half a million people to go with the cube. And I said, we're going to do a creative community. And then everybody on the team, we had like 50 people from all over the world working on this thing.

And And they said, "What what the heck is that?" And I explained it to them, you know, and the Burning Man references and all this kind of stuff. And they said, "Oh my god, that's so cool." Because what cities do, and when you experience them, you sort of notice when people plan cities, they talk about infrastructure. They talk about bus lanes. They talk about how to get rid of the garbage and and how you're going to get power and and and and how many trees there should be, which is helpful.

Zoning and zoning. And it's very it's very cut and dried. It's very scientific and and there's all these interesting things that they're doing. And I always go,

"Okay, I've heard all this, but tell me why you should love this new city. I understand why it'll work, but tell me why we should love it." And if you can't tell me why you should love it, you failed. And then you're wondering why

like why do you want to live here?

Or why would you want to live here? So they say well for a good job it's no emotionally emotionally why would you want to live here? So so this leads up to another so so that was a a beautiful thing that came out of Bernie man. So I've been running with that. I've won uh international design awards for the concept of creative communities done presentations in different parts of the world on the concept of the idea in addition to doing it at the 2019 Bernie man convening. Right.

So um And there's a lot of people trying to think this through too. I mean, it's a it's interesting topic and there's some people trying to build these things on a smaller scale. So, so which which is great, you know. So, we're all adding to the idea of what's going to make this thing happen and what's going to make it abundant. But the other thing and the 10 principles uh directly uh influence this which is one of the beauties and and so people know you know the 10 principles didn't come out of nowhere. Dangerous.

Oh, Larry carved them in stone in 1986 and in a flowing world descended down the beach, you know, with these

15 and then one crash then 10 principles, you know. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it was the Zeit guy. So, they kind of came about, you know, was

No, no. Danger Ranger did a I mean, well, well, so Danger Ranger did this great presentation at the Long Now Foundation

back in the day and he said, I want to show you the suicide club's 12 principles and the cacophony society's, you know, code of whatever, right?

And and he did a diagram. He showed how they all ended up becoming in some way with Larry adding things and you know it it it just but it just just didn't appear out of nowhere.

But but but nothing appears out of nowhere. This is not to denigrate

the what what Larry created. What Larry created was amazing, but it didn't come from nowhere.

No, he crystallized like Yeah. like what everybody was was thinking you like Yeah.

And he tailored it specifically for a purpose which was which I think started with Flip Side in Texas, right? The the first regional.

Yes. Yeah.

So the story I heard was was uh people were saying we want to do these regional events. Flip Side was the first one, but they needed guidance like what should we do? And and the feeling was well it'd be tough to just say do it. whatever you want. Follow your bliss. Right? They need they they needed something. So Larry pulled all this together. And the one of the parts of the 10 principles which I find particularly compelling and brilliant is that they contradict each other and that you're forced to navigate this. And I I think of this as a series of paradoxes. Now granted, this maybe comes from a a Zen Buddhist interest in college, right? the idea of the cone, you know, the idea of this kind of challenge,

but these represent these these dynamics

and and in the west regards to paradox because I think they set up a bunch of paradoxes in the west, we're rather fond of of of u resolving paradox, right? So, pick pink or blue, A or B,

you know, um short or tall, you know, whatever the thing is. and instead of which I think is a much more eastern fashion eastern notion is to embrace paradox

and to say it's almost never either or

it's it's almost always both and the question is just balance

the balance between the two and how they interact and and is it two or is it three or is it 30 or is it 300 because they all and so and so it's difficult to do this purely of logic.

Mhm.

So, you have to use a little of your heart, which is another paradox between the mind and the heart.

Oh, yeah.

And so, it's like you have to both be self-reliant. Now, you don't have to be anything, but but you're encouraged to be, you know, the provocation is

can you be self-reliant and very caring at the same time?

Because your classic libertarian, the libertarian that people go, I hate libertarians. The classic libertarian unfortunately takes the view it's like I'm going to do whatever I want. It's only about meant and everybody else can die.

And and and I I see myself more as a compassionate libertarian. Like I believe in maximizing

Well, what kind of community would you have if nobody cared about each other?

Whoa. But that's the prison like

Well, look out in So, so on one level, you know, I think one of the big valid criticisms of capitalism is it does not it does not encourage um compassion.

And in fact, if you're a CC corp in the United States, you're not allowed compassion.

So Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Well, no. Just interesting because something has been kind of coming up recently. Um talking about the 10 principles. Um

I always kind of looked at it as or maybe now like after all these years, I kind of look at the 10 principles more as like a it's a recipe. for converting like random strangers into like like like really close friends if not family like for me it's like it's it's a road map it's not exactly the the destination and

Oh exactly exactly yeah it's a road map it totally

so there's a number of like I know like some regional groups and it's like a lot of people kind of you like well you know for us like we have an 11th principle which is consent which is which is

which is definitely like very very important you know but I remember like there was did an interview with someone that interviewed Larry and Larry's like, "Yeah, I thought about that, but like I didn't put consent in there for a very good reason." The reason being that like the 10 principles are debatable. Like you said, like sometimes they're contradictory, you know, and he says, "And consent

is not right."

Right. Also, also kindness is not. So the

Yeah.

So at Africa Burn, I'm led to believe that their 10th principle is each one teach one. Yeah.

And to me that's a form of kindness, right? So, so I I think the beauty is there's 10. And it's and it's this great exercise that everybody gets to do is like what's the 11th principle?

Most of them are consent. And I and I would say that that that consent at Bernie man is one of the great charms, you know, but I talked to women about about Bernie man and I said, you know, you can you can dress any way you want.

Any way you want, which in the default world.

Yeah.

Is is is dangerous sometimes, right? You can dress any way you want and it's not an invitation.

It's not even an invitation for somebody to ask if it's an invitation.

Mhm.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just it's like it's like you're just being you. And and if something's going to happen, that's it's it's it's it's a complicated thing. But because I'm naked or I'm half naked or I mean sometimes half naked is even more provocative than than naked. But that does not mean

this is an invitation

in any way, shape, or form. And it's a beautiful, I mean, largely safe place. It's not 100% safe. I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't be wandering around naked at 3:00 in the morning in the darker stretches of of, you know, the city. Uh,

not that something's going to happen, but but, you know, you're alone. But being alone, you know, anywhere in the world can be Mhm. And anyway,

so um

Yeah. So,

so um so have you been going to like outside of like the the co years, it's like have you been pretty much like back at Black?

Oh, yeah. No, it's been every year since 2015 other than uh uh 20 and 21

because and and we didn't go out to uh whatever one calls it, Renegade Man or

you know, whatever. I've heard stories. I've heard good stories and bad stories. It depends on your point of view.

Yeah.

I'm led to believe that in the second year there was an effort to encourage people who were rangers to make an effort to go out to to the second year event because first year event had some problems.

Oh,

there was some anarchistic violence.

So, it didn't just kind of organically just pop together and everything. was was blissful and wonderful.

Not not completely. There were there were parts that were that and there were parts that weren't.

There were there were there were there were stories I'd heard about art being destroyed maliciously by

Oh,

um folks for no good reason.

Yeah.

And and these might be folks that have nothing to do with Burning Man. They just

were out there for because anybody could just go out, right?

Just out camping

all these years you've been going. Do are you still like in in camping center camp there? First camp or like

Yeah. No, we're still in We're still in first camp.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, how how do you interface with uh or do you volunteer or do you how do you interface with

Oh, yeah. No, I do it. Well, I I it it would depend on the year and what's going on, you know, that kind of stuff.

So, so I did I did a lot of helping with fundraising during co

because Bernie man had to basically figure out how to do uh

how to survive

a substantial amount of fundraising to survive, right?

So, so before they were doing certain things, but some things fell off like I was I was on the host committee for the artel. Have you ever been to the artminal?

Never been. No. No.

Oh, yeah. The artal was one of the best fun things in

Wow. You know, it's like again it's like feels like a big party, but the difference is it would start at like 5 and go until 3:00 in the morning.

Oh, wow.

And and there two parts to it. So the first part was the fundraising part where it was a dinner with tables and the whole thing and it was at the Bentley Reserve for many many years because they got some free space but it was quirky the Bentley Preserve. So so what would happen is they do that for 2 or 3 hours and then they'd switch and they'd have everybody leave which is which is difficult in these spaces, right? Is to get everybody to leave. And this would have been maybe 200 people that were there for the fundraising dinner part

and they they didn't leave the building, but they had to go hang out for an hour or so. They take all the tables away and then 2,000 people would show up for the big party

with all the DJs and all, you know, all the craziness and all that kind of stuff.

And it was and it and it and it allowed both parts of what you need to all be there together.

And uh and that was it was great. It was uh uh but it was very expensive and it was it's a very much of a community driven thing. It's it's

it turns out though you could raise way more money more efficiently

by doing smaller events,

you know, where you get you get

20 or 40 of the right people together and for for uh $5,000 you could you could feed them with some donated wine

and and and you could raise a half a million dollars where to do the art tunnel might cost $2 million to raise half a million dollars. So, it costs a million and a half dollars to do it

and you also have all the staff time does not counted in that million and a half dollars.

Yeah.

But oh my god, was it a wonderful thing. So, I I truly miss it because I because it's like being everybody would dress up, but you could dress up in things that you couldn't wear on PLA, right?

Because you didn't have to worry about getting dusty. You didn't have to worry about getting wet. You didn't have to worry about, you know, all these the you you'd have to worry about somebody spilling a beer on you,

you know. But aside from that,

um, so so people d, you know, people wore things that that you would just not see.

A lot more black.

No. No. Oh, no.

It wouldn't show fly on.

No. In one and one year, I wore this leather Venetian squid mask

that was so intense. Crimson told me it was too creepy.

Crimson.

Crimson told me it was too be creepy. And I said, "Crimson's Burning Man." She goes, "Some things cross the line."

Wow.

So I I put it on top of my hat and uh instead of wearing it and and and in retrospect when I look at the pictures, it is a little it is definitely creepyish, but it's like, you know, it was I don't know. It just seemed like it was fun.

But

yeah.

Yeah. She'd wear that out in the pla like late at night when it's the kind of thing that it would get ruined on. No, but that's the thing. It would get ruined on Playa and then and I was wearing a fish jacket

and that fish jacket would get ruined on playa. There's no way I could wear that on play. I mean, one dust storm and then it would be gone.

So, but but that was anyway that was one of the beauties of the artill was you you you could you could you do your outfits in a completely different way.

So, okay, let me move on to our second question. Just a little background for you. So, have you always been a San Francisco native or like Where did you grow up? Because I know you Midwest.

Okay.

I grew up in Illinois.

Oh.

And um and I came out to San Francisco when I was 22 in 1980.

Wow.

Well, 80 81.

Those are a fun time.

81. So I would have been 23.

Okay.

Uh and um and then stayed. I I was originally just going to come out, work for a couple years, and then go to graduate school.

Did you interface at all with with like you know like like Suicide Club or or Cacophony or

I didn't know anything about them until until getting into Burning Man.

Oh,

you know, and then meeting and then meeting characters, you know, like meeting John Law through Jerry James and meeting Miss P.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Miss P is amazing. I love her.

But I met her through Harley,

right?

Yeah. She was one of her kids.

Turns out that that Harley I mean that that Miss P now lives two blocks from me. Harley Harley lives like six blocks. So,

well, Harley moved down the coast or something, right?

Well, I think she still has her her her apartment or condo in North Beach,

but she did she moved down the coast uh to a little beach town.

I'm not I'm not sure it's it, you know, it kind of goes up and down like, you know, how well is that working? Does who is she missing?

Is she I mean, I think she just needed space, but she also So obstensively she's helping take care of her mother.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So So classic Harley, she's doing good work.

So So you met like John Law and Miss P and Jerry James, but this is only like after you went to Bernie or or

Yeah. Yeah. After after

Oh wow. That's funny cuz moved there in the 80s like

I did I did a lot of things with with the org. I did a lot of things, you know, it just I mean there's a lot I could I could go on. I I should make a little Bernie man. resume. But that sounds kind of anti-Burnie manlike. But but but I I've worked with Harley on projects. I've I've worked with Mary and I've worked with I mean, you know, and getting people to do things or trying to help, you know, make something happen.

Um just like the legacy of of the rocket car, you know, to keep that

kind of in the family, so to speak.

And but then anyway, so that you know, you just meet it's just a full range of people that you meet.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then meet people through doing art too, right?

Yeah.

So, uh, so anyway, um, but but also I've been trying to get Bernie man culture into the profession of architecture. So, I was able to get Kim Cook. Do you know Kim? Did you interview Kim?

Yeah, I think I did interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I got Kim Cook invited to do a a keynote uh speech at the World Architecture Festival.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So, stuff like that, you know.

Yeah.

I maybe she's an upcoming one. I can't remember. So, anyway, let's go on to our third question. So, like the impact the impact of Burning Man on you or or or or just just the impact of Burning Man generally,

how would you?

Oh, yeah. Well, on me, the thing is, you know, I we talked about um architecture, we talked about create communities, Uh we talked about the concept of embracing paradox. We talked about the concept of you know what a new world might be and how what happens at Bernie man

is what I call proof of concept.

Mh.

Um that humans can do this. Uh and that a a wide variety of humans can do this you know. So so um I mean you know for example Grover Norquist goes to Burning Man, right? Yeah, I know him. You You could try interviewing Grover.

Well, and he's actually on my list.

Oh, good. Okay.

He's somebody I I really would love to, but yeah, I need I need an introduction.

Well, he's a classic libertarian. Oh, well, let me uh

we could talk afterwards. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I might see him.

Oh, okay.

On Ply, let's say. So, um so the thing is is um uh he's a classic libertarian, so he takes a certain point of view and and and there's a a lot of people that don't like him, you know, at Burning Man. But but the thing is he's he actually embraces on a functional level because his politics aside,

on a functional level, he embraces he absolutely embraces the spirit of Burning Man.

Well, that was kind of my whole idea for I I wanted to interview him and um

uh a good friend of mine, I don't know if you know DeAndre Teter.

Um he's been going Bernie man for like many years, but uh he's like very involved in like in the American Communist Party. So,

yeah. So, you got a totally

Yeah, I want to have like, you know, but the thing is that like it doesn't matter. I don't know cuz some people say it's like, oh, like leave politics out of Burning Man, but like but in essence, isn't all art political in some degree or another, you know? But what I always tell people is like leave the partisan politics, you know, this whole tribal kind of like partisan politics like that can kind of stay out, you know? I mean,

well, my version Yeah, my version would be there's politics and there's philosophy. So to the degree to which philosophy d drives politics. So in Grover's case he has a philosophy of libertarianism.

Mhm.

Um I see that as a philosophy. Um you you you then could see okay what what economic system would be an offshoot of the philosophy of libertarianism and and and that's definitely not going to be communism.

Oh no. And and then so what form of capitalism or what form of anarchy would it be? Right. I mean there's some libertarians that are on the anarchy side of it.

Yeah.

But but if you if you stick with philosophy and and and and human, you know, then then it's easy to to to avoid politics because power politics is about power.

Yes.

And and and Bernie man might even argue that the philosophy of Bernie man would be how do you have politics without power?

There's a lot of challenges that come about that you can see how a culture can function in that space of embracing paradox where you say how can you have you know what would politics look like without power and and what kinds of power and and so so I think when when danger rangers really good at saying there there's and marry them too no politics I mean they they have very different political uh uh thoughts, danger ranger and

and uh as as do all of them, all of the of the founders have different political thoughts. I mean, I think

well, one shouldn't speculate too much about some of these things, but but anyway, but they do they have different political thoughts.

We're all individual. Everyone has different ideas like Yeah.

But but they agree that that that politics as an offshoot of philosophy, that politics itself is part of the default world. that should stay part of the default world and that this needs to be a safe space

to the degree that one can do that and it's been shocking in in the 10 years the nine years that I've been going

that you do occasionally see politics you occasionally I mean I remember talking to Stuart about this you know about and and a couple of other people about this is like there was a there was the do you remember the there was a watermelon piece done by a rogue group that became became a huge controversy immediately and this was

well I think they they wanted to bring it and then they were denied and people were saying political

no no it's very clever because because I also know I al you know I I know a lot of people as you might imagine

um so in the you know so in the legal department so as well so so the thing about it is is an anonymous group right

I heard that was It was the anonymous thing.

It was an anonymous group that did a provocation

with with a Palestinian a pro Palestinian thing.

Mhm.

And and so and and it wasn't overtly

political. It was the big inflatable watermelon.

Yeah. It was big inflatable watermelon. Now Now the thing was not everybody knows this, but the watermelon is the simple symbol of the Palestinian resistance

because it has the same colors as the flag.

No, but I mean beyond that, not just because it has the same colors, but it l literally is because in places where you're not allowed to to show the Palestinian flag, the watermelon becomes the symbol. It becomes the thing. It's it's not a casual thing. It's not it's not because we you and I noticed that the colors are similar. It's it's a real thing.

So So the thing is what Burning Man did was they didn't say no. They just said, "Look, it's against our policy regardless of whatever else you say. that anonymous groups cannot get placement.

Mhm.

So you can reapply if your group actually and they they didn't reapply. There was a a moment there. So so the issue becomes

why I mean

why they didn't reapply.

Yeah. Why not?

Well, the theory put your name on the theory that I've heard from some of my pro Palestinian friends is that

they achieved their goal which which was to to create a controversy that that people would talk about

and that you would get you would get an an exchange of of of thoughts,

start a conversation, basically

start a conversation. Um there there there have been things that people have done because, you know, you can just go out there and drag your piece of art out into the middle of the playa, right?

And there's some rules about that. So, you know, you got to follow those rules, but you don't have to go through replacement.

I think it's kind of a bit of a wasted effort though to some degree like cuz it's like yes, you succeeded in your goal in starting a conversation. But I think if they had reapplied and put their names on it, they could have

Yeah. Well, then would have had another thing to deal with, you know, is because because the conversation

Well, there's the goal to make it not political. So then one could argue that uh there was uh there was a bunch of burners that did a memorial to the people that died.

Oh, the Nova Heaven.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I actually volunteered at that like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it was not I didn't feel it was political. I mean, you know, obviously it was about a thing, but it was

there were different people Well, because I actually volunteered there and so like I interfaced with them. So, like there were different people involved like definitely

the Israelis, you know, who traveled from Israel who, you know, their direct experience. It's like they were they were a lot more emotional about you know, no like anyone walking up with any kind of kafia, no matter what color, you know, they would be triggered and and and try to explain it's like, you know, it's kind of common, especially going to the desert, people like going to Burning Man, they see these videos and this and that and they they go on eBay and they're like, "Oh, this will be a cool thing to keep me warm and the dust off me." Like it for most people, it's not a political statement, you know, but I think there's something

in that particular case. Yes. It wasn't a political Well, people can take anything political. like like you said, like isn't all art political? And it's like, well, yes, but but I but I have a bunch of watercolors that I've done that I would call non-scentimental optimism.

The politics of that is the idea that instead of fighting all the time and try and kill each other,

right, what if we embraced a common humanity that was based on optimism and love? caring

in the and caring and well oh I have a great quote for you so here's my great quote on caring okay so you know you're Renee Deart I think therefore I am

okay

so I think therefore I am totally imbalanced

notion

I mean it changed the world right completely I think therefore I am you know we get science we get iPhones we get vaccines we get all this wonderful stuff I think therefore I am linear logical verbal thought process but I think that or I believe believe correct myself. I believe that the cart only gave us half the equation and I also believe that I think therefore I am carries an arrogance with it that thinking is the highest order of human achievement. And I would say there's a substantial number of people that believe that to be true. Thinking is the highest order of human achievement.

And so I wrote a I wrote a piece that's in the Bernie man Journal right uh during um

it was the year Larry died and uh uh for robot cuz caveat said everybody

I read that. Yeah. It was wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so the the the the thing in there is is to rebalance it. I think we need to add to it. So, it's I think therefore I am. I care therefore we are.

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. Because without caring, nothing matters. Uh everything doesn't work if you don't care. But but we don't promote care. culturally.

Mhm.

You know, the fine arts people are like, "Oh, yeah. No, that that that lovey stuff is that's not fine arts." And and I was the vice chair of the board of the art institute in San Francisco. I know

I know what I mean. Unfortunately, we had to close it.

But um which which my little quote for that I I'm I'm doing a memoir. My little quote for that, the chapter title on on on the art institute is is love and toxicity. What happens when everyone loves something but they all hate each other

which is the world we are in right now right

like they all love the same thing but then they hate each other

they all love the school they love the concept of the school everybody says I want the school to be here forever I love the school but I hate you and so well because for example the students would take and the faculty would take an attitude

work

of of eat the rich

yeah

so so The thing is, everybody needs each other.

Yeah. You

know, you need people with money. You tomorrow, you're just not going to have the the the US government or the world subsidizing everyone's art projects.

Right. Or your arts education. I mean, I'd love to live in that world, but we're not in that world yet.

And and uh and then, you know, maybe with AI, right? So, if AI, See, the thing about AI is if AI creates enough abundance, material abundance then you can do anything you want. So on the one hand it sounds scary and I don't know the outcome of AI but you know people say well onethird of the human population is going to lose their jobs. That's a huge shift. But if AI creates material abundance it actually doesn't matter.

Mhm.

Then we need to find things for bored humans to do because a bored human is a dangerous human.

M Right.

Devil makes use of idle hands. Yeah.

But here's Bernie man. Culture based on creativity, a culture based on engagement, a culture based on love. So, so you get to inflection points. There's an inflection point. I have a friend, a Burning Man friend named Tamas, uh, David Barrett, and he's an Oxford scholar, and he's a I love this job description or professional description. He's an evolutionary an apologist.

Ah,

so he wrote a book and this is part of our bonding. We met in camp actually. Um, part of the bonding Marian finds very interesting people from around the world to to to give them a little bit of the Bernie man experience in camp, right? And part of our role as campmates is to facilitate their enjoyment and and their understanding of Bernie man culture,

right? So So we're all ambassadors in a way. which is important, you know, to to people that that need to know about Bernie man but are not, you know, are not necessarily going to come without a little a little help.

Yeah.

You know, campmates. But anyway, so Tomas, evolutionary anthropologist, um he takes the 340,000year view, right?

Hunter gatherer and this is a theory. Other people have the same theory. He he just wrote a book about gender specifically, which is one of my interests as well, right? like so um how do boys and girls behave over the years? But anyway, there's the agrarian I mean there's the hunter gatherer era 300,000 years 40,000 years of of agrarianism. We're at the end of that era. Some people want to say oh no we're out of that era. We're on the new era. I'm not so sure because industrialization is less than 200 years old.

Mhm.

1850 was the steam engine, right?

Yeah.

And and the factory and good things happened and bad things happened, right? And so 200 years out of 40,000 years, we still have an agrarian mindset. I think that Burning Man is part of humans trying to break out of that mindset to find different mindsets.

So if we're at an inflection point, right, you're it's going down, you know, just to illustrate like how it could go. It's going down.

It could go down further or it could go up.

Yeah. And the difference between the down further and the up is what we fill in a vision of what that future should be could be. And if that future is a future of love and compassion in balance with yourself, right? So it's not it's a balance of the ego and the group. It's a balance of which is why I love the concept of paradox. So so my my little self like like my my bio and I I started this Because Bernie man said, "You need a bio for something that that we were doing together, right?"

Mhm.

I said, "You need a bio." And so, but but it being Burning Man, you I needed something clever. So, so I said, "I'm a part-time student of absurdity, paradox, kindness, and art."

I love it.

In that order. So, the world is absurd. And but I'm a part-time student. Now, part-time student means student means observer. to me, right? You're learning, you're observing. So the other half is actively engaged. So a monk, you might argue is a full-time student.

And so for me in my journey, I feel I I should I need to be engaged. So part-time student, right? And then and then an understanding of absurdity leads to paradox for me.

The epiphany of paradox. It's like It's like, well, I need to do something. What should I do? And then you say, do this or that. And it's like, well, well, no, it seems like it should be do this and that. And and Bernie man is so beautiful with that. So, so it un it breaks you out of this mo mode of of western thinking that's been around for thousands of years. And it's served humanity well in certain ways.

Mhm.

You know, you have a few little blips like colonialism, destruction of the environment, you know, little things like

little blips,

little, you know, oppression, little little blips. So,

so the thing is though, I I I see there's great hope for this inflection point, but we need we need to to talk about we need to vision what that future would be. Otherwise, there's nothing to hold on to. The the party boat people to go to your beginning of this, the party boat people,

they don't think about this they they just want to go be on the ship that's not maybe sinking but then maybe they don't care as long as the party goes until they get right. So but but but it other parts of humanity you know because not everybody wants to be a philosopher or everybody you know it's should be a philosopher is that you know we try to work we all try to work these things out and I think everybody could should be a philosopher and everybody should be an artist and everybody should you know anyway but I think Bernie man shows a partic a a potential vision or a way to say this is how these things could work but

what's the work part to me the biggest thing is this balance between of care between the individual and the group

yes yeah

and it's not one or the other

and it's both together

yeah well I like this whole idea kind I don't know what I don't know see if I'm picking up what you down. Um like instead of like picking a side, instead of like being like just a rigid dichotomy, it's like embracing like you said like the paradox and there's there's learning in there of of thinking, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, well, I don't have to choose A or B, black or white, male or female, you know, whatever it is.

All of it. It's all of it together. It's hard to conceptualize, but

you can learn so much and you you can create and evolve so much just in through that kind of tension between, you know, it's like, well, I don't have to pick either one.

See, and then we do pjoratives. So, my my perfect thing is, okay, the classic thing is between black and white is gray, right?

So, whoever said that the first time and whoever keeps promoting that idea had an agenda. They liked binaries because what they were saying was between black and white is gray, but gray is boring, right?

But gray is infinite.

Well, infinitely boring. My version of what's between black black and white is all the rich and varied colors of the universe and and all of the beauty of everybody that's in the in between, right? Rather than like cuz in the US, you know, historically in the US the binary was white or not white,

right? And so I mean it's insane, but but now part of the tension is people are saying it's all the colors of the universe between white and not white. And this is where the fun is, right?

I don't I don't want to eat American diner food 24/7, McDonald's. I want to go to a Thai restaurant. I want to I want to learn about Thai culture and philosophy by being at the, you know, being I like I like I mean, San Francisco is such a rich place, right? It's just so wonderful.

Love it when I get back to Yeah. It's just funny even just thinking of color theory like between black and white, it's like well yeah, it is every color of the rainbow. I mean like in print it's just like you add all the colors together you get black like like in if you project colors you with light add them all together you get white you know

so the other one is the word balance right so balance people go no balance is boring like that's the middle of the road that's like you know

and I go okay a person that's doing some wild skate thing where they're flipping up and around right

they it is It's impossible to do that if you're not in a state of balance. You can be the biggest badass, but you have to be in a state of balance on a surfboard. You have to be in a state of balance. So, so balance has different meanings. Don't limit it to middle of the road.

Mhm.

Because you can be at the at the edge of the precipice

and if you're not in balance, you're going to fall off and die.

Even those old kung fu movies, the drunken master still had a sense of balance, right? Like

Yeah. Well, I think we've been going uh about an hour and 18. Um Okay. Any final words or uh anything you want to plug? Any like uh do you have like a website or anything or

Oh, just the idea Well, I have a new book and you know, all this kind of stuff, but but just the idea that um I think we're at an inflection point. I think that that that all of the darkness that we see right now

uh on both sides on all sides is is this inflection point. and and old things are crumbling,

right?

We need to replace them with wonderful things. And we have those wonderful things. We just have to we just have to really truly embrace the the beauty of them and and how that's going to help us get to the next era of humanity

and that Bernie man really philosophically and artistically and culturally because culture is the primary thing that will get you to care. legal systems can't do that. Um, government programs, you know, subsidizing education will help, but it doesn't really do that. You know,

you need all those things. Um, technology doesn't do that. Technology creates massive change, right?

None of it matters if we don't care. But culture can get you to care.

And Bernie man is culture.

And and the beauty of Bernie man is it's culture without it's it's only a agenda is to get you to open your mind. It doesn't tell you to be kind uh intentionally, right? Because that would be too focused. It would be telling you what to do. It just wants you to be in a place where you can discover kindness.

Mhm.

And it turns out that that's where people go, I think, generally. Not always.

Yeah. Like if they hang around.

Yeah. They hang around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you very much. This has been Wonderful interview.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, it's July. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

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