EP 78 Francesca Koi

Episode 78 with Francesca is out now! Meet Francesca, a long-time organizer of Dragon Burn, the first Burning Man regional event in China. Her story traces the evolution of this community from its clandestine 2014 beginnings on a small island near Shanghai to its current form as a resilient, 95% local movement that thrives despite sudden venue changes and strict authorities. Francesca highlights the unique "co-learning" philosophy between global regionals and the main Black Rock City event, emphasizing how the ten principles are adapted to fit diverse cultural landscapes. She relates how the radical self-reliance and communal effort found in the desert act as a transformative force, teaching participants to navigate the "shadow" of modern society with increased kindness, creativity, and adaptability.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. What? Him? Yes, that Andy. Today our guest is Francesca. Welcome. Welcome.

So,

welcome everybody.

I'm in Hawaii and where are you again? You're you're plus 18 in terms of time with me. It's like tomorrow but 6 hours earlier than

Yes. It's a little bit strange. I'm on the same planet. I'm in Shanghai, China.

All right. Um

and uh

so uh what's your Burning Man story like? What was your first experience with Bernie? And did you was you go out to the Black Rock Desert or did you experience it?

Uh not really. Uh my very very first burn was our first Chinese regional

uh here nearby Shanghai and that would have been 2014.

That was the first time that I uh officially attended um an event. Well, that one was not an official regional by then because it was the first time, but then it became an official regional the year after and we have been continuing ever since.

What's it called?

And uh Dragon Burn.

Dragon Burn. And was that the first year of Dragon Burn or that was your first year?

2014. 2014 was the first year of Dragon Burn. Yes.

Oh.

So all of the experience started maybe a couple of years earlier when we started to gather the community and uh uh scouting for venues. Uh try to think about what to do, how to do it. There were a few people that were very fundamental in that process. And uh for me, what happened is that I was in I went to attend uh like a bar camp which was uh at the time was kind of like a very interesting uh event where you have like a unconference model. There is a venue and there is like not really a schedule. There's a big board.

You put your calendar and then everybody can go and fill the spot with the workshop. or sharing session or whatever. And uh I arrived at that afternoon. It was kind of like something between the uh hacker space community and the independent artist like across this this kind of people. And I went there and there was um there was like one of these lot was saying uh Bernie man in China question mark China to Bernie man question mark. And I was like oh that's interesting. Uh I knew what was Bernie man already. idea and I was like what what is who is this people doing this thing and so I went there

uh and there was um a friend like a very dear friend since then that was uh promoting the culture of Berniman and the tempo and was also saying that there was this amazing regional network of events all around the world and then his dream was to have a Chinese regional

and um

so they was like very very motivated And uh and then there was a couple of other people which uh have been to Black Rocks already and also founded what is my theme camp there. They were living in Shanghai at the time and so kind of like these people start together. There was like flyers going around. We did the decompression in 2013 uh in a place that

How many people you talking about? Like

uh like that that was sort of like a trying to organize something maybe like six or seven I would say.

But what do you throw some of these like like gettogethers like how many people would show up? I mean are there like a

maybe 50. It depends. I think 50.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was a good number. I mean we did some projection and then I think that the the compression was very cool because there was it was hold in a in a venue that was called Inferno which seems very appropriate. It's kind of like a very underground metal uh bar in Shanghai quite famous for many years

and uh and that was like a very big uh turnout. So that's kind of like formed a little bit of a smaller group. We start to have meet regularly. Someone gifted like was offering like a meeting space for like weekly or bi-weekly meeting and then we just start to get the schedule of side checks and uh and after a year we pull out the first event. Wow. So, where do you do it? Cuz you're in Shanghai, like in the city. I mean, is it like somewhere out in the country?

No, it's like it's nearby like it's a little bit outside that time. Was a was an amazing location was a an island in a small island inside of a lake, not maybe like a couple of hours drive from here.

And uh and there was like this amazing uh cliff like this mountain cliff. So, we did projection mapping on the cliffh

and then there was the here and the water and uh it was like quite uh fabulous and um and then unfortunately then the venue was not available anymore but for the first one was I think a very good venue.

Yeah, that sounds incredible. How many people get fit on this island?

I think how many people would fit on the side much more but we were like maybe 250.

That's a good something like that if Yeah.

Yeah,

if I recall something like 200.

Wow.

And uh Um yeah, it was like very like calling calling out of all the community of uh Shangai is quite it's quite active. There's a lot of uh uh artist and craft and musician and things. So it was like random and chaotic but also very uh very interesting and there were a few people that that that has been like that have been to Black Rock City already. So I think they were kind of like pushing a little bit the the vibe. There was someone that uh volunteered We had to design an effigy that was a dragon egg. So that's also kind of symbolic while the dragon comes out from the egg and uh and you could walk inside of the structure. Um then we started to work with the reclaimed material and and this kind of things was uh it was very successful. I was on uh on crutches because I broke that was like May no maybe yeah something like May I broke my ligament and uh all of my knee like six weeks before

and uh so I was in rehab from the surgery and blah blah blah and so I arrived on crutches and I left without which I think was uh like a good I just abandoned the crutches during the burn.

Wow. The dragon healed your knee

like exactly just to say like what change what like how the burn changed your life. Well,

I've learned to ignore the pain. Exactly.

So, how many of these people who showed up, these 200 250 people were actually uh had been to Black Rockck City or another regional or had

uh probably less than 15 or 10. Very, very few.

Doesn't take too many people. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was what in 2014? That was the first one.

Yes.

Wow. And so you guys been doing it continuously every here.

Yes. So we we have a funny story like so uh we have we have done it continuously uh until 2019 with uh mostly every time in different venues more or less except the last two years. Uh then 2020 of course we had to stop and there was a little bit of like up and down over the over the years. So we we we have been done it almost every year in either being a regional like you know official regional event

or being an unburn uh or being uh no we don't do the event this year but then we still go out to the venue and we kind of like camp and everybody knows and everybody bring their thing so kind of like different formats for a variety of reason.

We also got uh we got cancelled a few we got cancelled once that was like 2017 three days before the event and in three days we found another venue and we move everything of like 150 kilometers.

What? Wow.

And you just did it.

What happened? Why was it?

There was the venue was under the jurisdiction of uh uh Hanjo which is a city not far from here and that was the time I think that was like the the G8 or the G20 or some some of this uh international gathering

and so there was a lastm minute decision from the authorities that no public event should have been held. uh in in the land for those days. Uh so everybody got cancelled actually, not only us.

Wow.

But it was three days before. So we got this call from like the people that were sort of like in the in the more um um like execution uh team that year and they said, "Oh, we have some news." And the news is that we go cancel, but we also found another venue. And we're like, "Oh, okay. What is it?"

And uh it was like yeah 100 kilometer far away from there. mainly. So, we had to kind of reorganize a little bit the logistic and the and the the moving the stuff. And the funny thing that this was also on an island, but uh but we could reach the island only with very small not canoe, but kind of like this wood. I don't know how to call it in English, but it's a little bit bigger than a canoe, but not that big. So, the loading of all the equipment on this like wood um thing to go on the other side of the of the shore was like quite funny. the outrigger canoes

something like that. Yeah, you could there is like a pier

like there is kind of a deck but then there is a indoor place where you can fit maybe like six people or something

and then you have the deck outside. So not very convenient for loading uh equipments. It's not our equipment is was not that complicated at the time but see still you have

boxes and things and stuff and stages and uh

so that was fun. and um and it rained for four days. The effigy was not was not able to lit because uh it was uh soaked in mud and water and so we rebuilt the last minute effigy with the leftover the barbecue sticks and anyway.

Wow. I mean and how many people did you have at that? I mean because I guess you could only like ferry people over on the on the boats, right? I mean Yeah, I I think it was all all the boats was kind of going like back and forth so they could carry people. It's just that there was this interesting sort of like gate experience which was not a gate but we were having chunks of people arriving.

It's not clear when because it was subject to the people driving the boats and they were like in groups of like 15 or 20s and so there was this continuous gate kind of welcoming thing that was there was quite funny, like completely unplanned but like quite interesting. And uh yeah, that was fun.

Uh and then after that we Yeah. And then then we went to a place where we stay for a few years and we're still there. It's kind of like we're still working with this venue since then uh in different formats.

Yeah. What's your What's your new place? Is it still an island?

No, it's not island. It's a bamboo forest. It's still like to a reservoir. So, it has like a little bit of a we cannot get into the water, but there is like a very nice water landscape like very beautiful and um and we've been there since 2018 with some uh um different sometimes

like the place is huge like I think the place could host like 15,000 people no problem and so we really don't need

Yeah. Like it's a huge campground and then there is a eras area with the flower like it's kind of like a flower farm. It's funny like it it was a it's like a it's like a reforestation like um area plus uh a flower farm that was also surround like you have some some kind of decor like landscape decoration like I don't know there is one big sign that say love you know you know the letters that are on on fire sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly that kind of thing because people would go there in the flowering season to take wedding photos.

Oh,

so there is like a fake balloon, there is a giraffe, a couple of sort of gate, but everything is very decadent because this is not happening anymore, which is kind of make it cool because then you can interact a little bit with the environment and do some like funny stuff.

Yeah. I mean, how many people are at Dragon Burn now? Like what's it? Uh, you said

so. 15,000. But I mean,

no, no, no. Of course. No, that was like the Well, the the venue is a campground. So, when they have busy busy weekend during holidays, they they arrived to had like uh four or 5,000 guests. Uh, no problem. No, we are like our biggest was around 900, like a little bit less than 900

and uh last year, which was the last official one, we were 650, I would say. And this year that was informal, we don't know, but maybe like 300, 350, something like that.

Oh yeah, that's incredible. And so like uh are there a lot of um a lot of people travel there from other like far-flung places or is it mostly just kind of local Shanghai burners?

No, there is a lot of there is a few communities around the country. So there is a a lot like a few groups that comes from uh Beijing. or Shenzhen like there is quite of a few people that come from around like maybe I would say I don't know 50% or something like that

uh depends also from the year we had times where people were coming from uh like big numbers from uh from other cities and uh the most of the people of course it's like nearby Shanghai and the cities nearby and then we had uh we always have a very good uh um like we we have lot of people coming from other regionals as well. We had like several international people from uh from nowhere like friends of friends or maybe friends of our of ourself going to the regionals uh team camp like uh friends of of uh Black Rock City last year. We had a group of uh they came from the Russian burn that we didn't know them. We just said they send us a message and they say, "Oh, we're coming. It's eight of us." And this year we had a group of uh from Japan burn. Uh, also the Russian eight of them,

the Russian burnt is like are they are they still they're still like a Russian like Burning Man group? Are they I'm not sure. Like are they allowed to do that like in this damage? Oh, skipping there.

Or maybe even three, but they definitely do two. One is the first week of August and the other one I think is first week of September. I don't remember the name of the location. But there are two of them.

And then there is also a community of of Russian that is uh living for part of the year in Bali and they're also doing a Bali burn since a few years. They're no official regional. I think the Russian one is maybe one of them is an official regional but they they run for every year for many years and the Bali is like maybe two or three years and they run in it. And uh uh they're trying to get more involved with the local community of course but apparently it's very beautiful.

Yeah. I've heard about this Bali burn. Is that like is it is it mainly like a bunch of like expat like Russians down there? I mean they are there also like local Balines like burners.

They're they're trying to make uh they're trying to work with the locals. Yeah. It's not a super easy pro process. I mean Bali as far as I know is not a place where uh there's let's let's put it this way. There are a lot of experts. So it's not necessarily super easy to uh to kind of like build community with the local. Um, but I think it's just a matter of time. When we started also Dragon Bone, I think the first few years definitely the the the ex like the I don't like to use the word expert, but I say the international people were outnumbering the locals and now we are like 95% of the local. So really

I think it's just a matter. Yeah.

Yeah.

Most of the we we have been running.

No, you you said also were there some other groups of um Chinese said like Beijing and some other like other city like so there's there's other like active groups of like local like people been to like start off with like a group of people that went to Black Rockck City but uh you know there's there's other like active burners out there.

Yes. So that there is I think it's quite diverse scenario. So there are like groups like in big city there are groups of people that maybe

maybe they have been to Dragon Bone and so there is kind of like some local uh community that are more like art related. It's kind of like a community in in its sense. Then there is people that has been there is also a lot of Chinese burner that go to Black Rockck City and maybe they have never heard about Dragon Burn and and maybe they don't go to Black Rockck City. I mean maybe Dragon Burn is not their thing, you know, because maybe they're looking for some sort of like more uh uh extravagant or extreme sort of experience. But there but we have sometimes we are in touch or we find people that uh that actually they are genuinely curious that they just don't know that there is a regional network out there

and uh and maybe they and sometimes they they they get curious and we have some people that have been first to Black Rock City and then they they then they came to us or vice versa. We try to help locals to go to Black Rock City or to other regional to kind of like facilitate or connect with the camps and logistics and thing.

Some people go to Black Rock City because it's Black Rock City and they may have no idea that there are regionals, but sometimes we find ways to get in touch and uh so it's it's really I think that I mean I've been one of the things that uh like I've been helping placement to try to do a sort of census of the Chinese camp in Black City also because some of them they were also kind of like more on the plugland play side or like kind of like people that get hyper organized and then go with this uh like very structured and so we were trying to we wanted to understand how was there a way of of being in Black Rock City and maybe just give them the right support uh that they may have needed. So we went for some uh in like kind of like check I was going with the camp and get in touch with the people uh and also we have um and so there is quite a big number of Chinese like for in in in all of the volunteering that I do in Black Rock City I actually can I can I realize that there is a lot of Chinese out there and uh and it's funny like because then they don't expect you to speak the language so you kind of like can shock them a little bit in some of the situation like I don't know

do you guys have like a

do you guys have like a regional camp like because I years ago I started the Hawaii regional group and we had a camp out in the playa and like I at its largest it was like we had it was almost like a village with like 600 and some odd people but it was such like clusters of different groups and but it was just kind of like it was like oh this is like Hawaii you know and there's like the different like the islands were kind of like the different areas and I remember like talking to years ago Ian love this like we we were like we should take over like one of those plazas and we're going to call it the ring of fire right you know it's like you guys over there we'll be over here we'll have like Argentina like over there maybe Alaska over there but but having like some sort of player presence I mean because right now it sounds like you know there there's a good number of Chinese burners but they're just sort of scattered in different camps I mean do you ever have

so this it's yes they are scattered but I think for a reason so there are a few things that happen so uh in my camp actually thanks to uh also Ian and other people that have been uh um maybe regional contact or that has been a little bit more experienced with the the the Chinese and Taiwanese community for many years. So, we do a Chinese speaking party on Playa that uh we've been we've been doing it for like many many years. And that's interesting because like the most absurd people just show up in that thing. They just found it on the guide, they get there and so the idea is also to try to understand how everybody makes it to to back to Black Rockck City like what's what are the the many route that brings you there.

Uh and then this is hosted at uh at my camp Spice and Vice which is not like which is where most of the community of of Dragon Bird would go to camp because it's founded by also like the founder of Dragon Bird. I mean it's kind of like a very large international community where we basically is like we are maybe like 80% of international every year. It's a camp that that exists for 15 years is very solid very um like very very well equipped to to welcome people from abroad and it's kind of like a home. So if if we have some of us that want to go to Blacker City then you would say hey go go to my go to my home you know it's cool

I promise and then

we kind of have all the stories but then there is few other things there is China village which is inside the global village which is I think the biggest so far and then he came he kind of like emerged from one of this sort of like a little bit plugandplay attempted a few years ago but then in fact over the years they they start to like I mean they improved a lot and they they also doing an art card now I think uh they're like also their communication you see is like a little bit um it's different it's kind of like more about participation and it's more about getting involved and and supporting different way of being in uh in Black Rock City uh I think it's still some kind of very high-end or organized for the logistic in in some ways but uh

yeah uh but it gots a little bit better and is inside of that's has been inside of the global village for uh for quite a few years now and then last year in the last couple of years there was someone that did art project so they got funded from art project or they receive a grant or not but anyway they were doing art on play and so they had like some art support camp and so those were also kind of like uh Chinese camp it's there's in a lot of the time I think some Chinese people that is living in the US and so kind of like can help out with the logistic a little bit.

Um that's I would say is is most of the case because then it would be otherwise it would be different different like our FG

like like one of our FG lead project a few years ago in Black Rock City and we really want him to to camp with us because it's like come on you are our effigy lead where why do you want to go and then he ends up camping with some of these other people because they were providing sort of like, you know, more comfortable logistic something. I don't know.

Well, that's something that I have some experience too coming from Hawaii like uh like personally like my brother lives in San Francisco and so like I'll fly in there like he has like everything there. Like no matter where in the world you're coming from, it could be from like, you know, Lithuania, you know, South Africa,

you know, I mean I mean Shanghai, that's probably about as far as you can get, right? You know, I mean Not sure how many like direct flights there are,

you know, but um but yeah, same thing with Hawaii. It's like I mean like we we had to have like logistics and we had friends like on the mainland and so like the idea of like doing the camp on the playa was was kind of you know it was twofold. It was kind of to help kind of gathered people together and then uh I don't know to also logistically kind of help some people out, you know, because some a lot of people it's like they just show up like like in a in a airplane Like at most you could have like, you know, maybe two duffel bags.

Yeah.

For like, oh, I got to be there for like nine days and bring all my food and everything. It's like, uh, how do you do that? You know, but it's also it's not on the one hand you can say, well, it's kind of like plug and play, but the other hand, it's like, well, no, you're kind, you know, who it would be for most ordinary people from far away. It's like it's extraordinarily difficult, you know. It's like it's like you're not like selling like a luxury camp experience. you know, but but you know, you are like helping people. Yeah.

Do you guys do stuff like that?

Yeah, I think I I totally agree. I totally agree. Sometimes it's like I mean I my my setup in in Black Rock City is extremely minimal and uh I I people know me for the the house mall is my tent and now like minimal is my setup. But yeah, of course like there is all the logistic about like renting RVs or like I mean people has different needs and and and things. So uh it's good that Everybody can be accommodated in the way that they that they prefer. Of course, like the camp is helping a little bit. I have now I have I have a couple of boxes stored in a in a friend storage nearby Reno, which helps a lot. So, I don't have to there are certain things that I don't have to put on my list anymore because I know that they are there. Um, but this year I the camp is not going so kind of still trying to figure out what I'm going to do. Yeah, I have some ideas but not fix like not decided yet.

Well, I think sometimes it's kind of fun to sort of throw things in the mix, you know? It's like try something different like, you know, a little bit off the beaten path for a year. It's like, you know what?

Exactly.

It's like flaming a hula hoops. It's like I didn't think I would like it, but you know, it's like I love it or whatever, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Um, so who is the person who founded Dragon Burn? So there is a a few names that I think need to be mentioned. So uh one is Van who was uh which is like definitely I would call him like a burned veteran. He was in uh Baker Beach. Uh I don't remember if it was in Baker Beach or if it was at the first Black Rocks maybe the first Black Rock City event and um and is a San Francisco uh um like come come from San Francisco. So very like coming from those years and then he moved to live to Asia for many years and because of uh holiday like um job job leaves that he cannot take during the the week of Black Rock City he hasn't been back in Black Rock City for a very very long time.

Oh um

it's kind of like waiting for retirement then ah and um very active now has been living in other cities in China for a while. So he was trying to build like a local community in other city like absolutely like a we call him the grandpa of Dragon Burn and uh that is the definitely I mean a person with an incredible uh reputation and also like an fantastic historical value for the for the whole community. And then there are Nick and Jen which were used to we were living here in Shangghai a few years ago and then they also founded uh Spice and Vice in Black Rock City. Uh which were kind of like uh the people that actively start to look for venue, organize side checks, kind of like get the production and the logistic uh uh done and then together with them a few other people that were experienced like Black Rock City uh folks that sort of like give like the you know the logistic when you when you have done it once your second time you know a little bit better. how to do it.

That energy was kind of cool.

Yeah. The first years we did I remember with Nick we did like uh maybe we we went to visit like 15 venues in in three months. Like it was crazy. It was like every free time we were just jumping on a taxi and go to see a venue to to try to find a decent place where to watch the event. It was like absolutely crazy. A lot of fun.

So but it was uh yeah it was hard. And then since then we kind of established and then there is like I think three of us now that has been from the very beginning. Four of us that has been from the very beginning that are still uh part of the of the production team and they still live here. Yeah. Four of us.

So you first went to Dragon Burn. That was your first Burning experience in 2014. Like what what was the first year you actually went out to the Black Rock Desert?

2015.

Oh, very next year.

Yeah, the very next year. It was kind of know like uh yeah 2015 and uh I mean I I we felt we went like two of us and uh Nick and Jen were there and it was kind of like it felt like a little bit kind of like okay we're doing this thing so we did it for two years and then he was like well this this looks like perfect you know let's just like let's just go to like we felt that we need that we wanted to to kind of see an actual Burning Man event to be able to understand understand what exactly we were doing.

Mhm.

Uh a little bit if like it fell and it was like it was a good moment. So we just went there and uh yeah, of course it was great. It was like a feral I would say after probably the second worst weather after 2025. So it was like really tough but uh but yeah, it was good. Very it was very nice.

It's quite amazing.

So the two of you like where did you camp with? Like did you just

spice and vice?

Oh. So did you guys started that camp that year or

No, no, the camp the camp the camp was started by many years ago.

Oh,

from two of the people that started also Dragon Burn. So for us was kind of like going to

we we knew only the two of them but we were coming from Dragon Burn and they were the uh the found I mean it was kind of like just basically reconnected with a family that we didn't know we had it until then. So, did all these like stories that people said like suddenly like make sense? Like, you know, after you kind of made it through the gate and you kind of put up your tent, you're kind of wandering around, you're just kind of like, "Ah, okay. Now I see what you mean, you know?"

Yeah. Like something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so have you been going back like to the ply like every year since or

No. So,

must be hard.

I've done uh 50 17 19 like the idea was to go every two years because that seems to be like a reasonable also coming from so far.

Mhm.

Then I went back in um 2023 and then I did 23 24 and 25.

So I kind of like

and uh and I think I will do this year as well. Yes, I think I'll do this year as well. I I things change. So there are different reason why I'm going I been going in the past three years every year.

It's not something I necessarily want to do, but I was doing stuff. So, that was the the that kind of like came spontaneously.

U people needed you to do stuff. You sort of uh get roped into

No, it's not that people needed me, but I So, there are a few things that um so what happened is that after like before beside the first year 2015, which of course you go and you're like just doing your camp and we went for early we went with early arrival to build the camp. So even from the very first year I was on player for like 11 or 12 days um and then uh like and then from 2017 I start to kind of figure it out which were the department I mean kind of like doing some uh volunteering work and join like a different department and uh and stuff and then there is one very beautiful thing that is called uh at the time was called the mentorship program and now it's called like a co-learning program. So which is something that is organized by the regional network. Um so if you're coming from a regional community you can uh join a department in Black Rockck City as a shadowing as a collaborator as a as a mentor as a co-learner whatever

and uh and of course you're doing you're supporting and and and um and and doing things on Black Rock City but you're also maybe thinking about what are the things that you want to develop for your own regional? So, it's kind of like this very uh nice exchange and uh and so this was like an an amazing opportunity. So, I start to do that and I've I've done it every year with um a different department. So, I've kind of seen quite of a few things around

Black Rockck City and then I also volunteer with the Zeno for many years because I also do the same kind of work in Europe to other festival. Oh

and uh and then our camp is in the green corridor and we were very interesting in kind of working with the borders without border. Uh so I I I kind of like like we were going around and doing doing this uh interview to the camp about sustainability, how they get their solar setup done, how they recycle their water. I'm kind of very nerdy person. So for me it's like that's the most interesting part. I just going on the backstage and see how things are done.

Yeah.

Uh so I kind of like always like very active and then 2023 I start to uh volunteer with Gate uh which I love

here right

the rainy year. Exactly.

Yeah. The rainy year it was perfect. I mean it's like which better department you could choose on a rainy year.

Yeah.

And I really like it. So I'm kind of of doing uh I I just I just feel that I want to do this. If you go every year, you get the things a little bit more uh straight, you know, you kind of the pieces come together in a in a better way also for yourself. Also, I think for your personal uh

uh story and relationship with the

with the with the place.

Well, with Birding, there just it's so big. There's so much. I mean, it takes maybe a couple of years to, you know,

soak it up all in. And you know I mean

yeah

so what

it took me like

yeah so what departments have you cycled through or experience?

So a little bit of placement a little bit of um well fire department a little bit of fire safety and uh some learning and uh perimeter like a uh fire perimeter. Last year I I was working a little bit on flame effect and um send gay And um the sustainability team which is not really burners without burner but there is a group of people that is is doing this uh mapping of the sustainability of the different camps and uh which is not really a department but is somehow a group and uh maybe this one.

Yeah maybe this one.

This one?

Yeah like maybe this few that I mentioned. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I cannot recall others at the moment. Yeah,

that's a lot.

Well, let's see. You still have like rangers and medical and DPW and like we said gate, right?

Oh, a a little bit of DPW, but very little. But that was a very cool one. Uh, one year I was uh mentoring with the the person that is in charge of the external services. So all of the cranes and the thing and the the portaotties and how many generator, how many solar generator maintainance, where's the fuel, blah blah blah. So I went like it's kind of nice to see. I haven't done much physically, but I learned a lot about all of the like how these things are organized, rented, maintained. Uh how is like this enormous spreadsheet that make Bernie man actually work and all of it. It was amazing. And he was the person that I I I asked this person uh what do you recommend I could do if I have a few hours to spend volunteering? And he he suggest me go to Gate and uh it was a great suggestion.

Yeah. What what do you like about Gate?

That you see well a few things but definitely the fact that you see the people that go to Burning Man in in in the best way possible because you wouldn't you wouldn't meet those people in another situation at Burn and you can see everybody.

Yeah,

you really see everybody and then you see the vehicle man. I mean I live in a like like US is crazy. You drive like they drive like this huge amount like this trucks like as they are like normal family car and for me like some of those van are like five times bigger than my apartment. So I kind of just like like I love this this it's very looks like very it looks very like at gate everything looks very steampunk you know like I really like it it's like this very steampunk feeling and and you can see everybody you see all of the personalities and the character people that would go to places of black rock city that you you you will not go because you don't like it they're not your style but you will meet them

you see all of the trash fans diversity that part I really really like it you have the feeling that you meet everybody.

So,

and then you have to be

like most of the people coming through the gate that the gate and you guys will see people before the greeters even get them, you know? I imagine like the the vast majority of people are just like

I mean they're probably tired. They're exhausted. Some could be grumpy, but

they must be like just so happy, you know? They're just like, "I made it. I made it." You're just like, "Yes, you did." Well, you got your ticket. Okay. Yes, you did. You go over there. You know, like I think this is a after a while it's kind of like it's it's feeling uh um of course I mean the sentiment and the interaction can be of a diversity but the point of us is making people go in as safe and as fast as possible and so and the point of them is to go in as safe and as fast as possible. So it's kind of like we're matching the like is is a is a very high matching potential and and then the fact that you're setting is kind of like the first human encounter that you're having. I mean, I think it's is it's just like amazing. It's like it's a very even if it lasts for a few seconds, it's just like so intense.

Oh, yeah.

And uh I just love that.

This last year, my brother and I we we would un completely unintentionally.

We were online for 20 hours. So two zero.

I mean, if you told me beforehand going into it like this is what's going to happen to you, I'd be like no way, no how. Like I'm just not going to go, you know, like forget it. But it was just like like one hour bled into another hour and then it's like at 3:00 in the morning like you like the roads open like yay. But then it's like by 4 hours later at like 700 a.m. it's like does like the line actually kind of make it back to where we are and then it's like 11:00 a.m. by the time. But even after all of that, it's like you get and you go through and you get your ticket and you go and you're just like, you know, it's like you're just like I'm here like Thank you very much. You know,

yes.

Yeah, that's I think that's very that's nice. I mean, the people at Gate are amazing also. And I think it's there's there's some uh some kind of like uh um like I don't know. I like the idea to be like you're the steward of the city and you are like it's also strange because I I have one of the reason why I like to go back to Black Rockck City is just because Black Rockck City I think like the the desert, the environment, like the the harsh thing for me. There is also like a personal kind of connection with the with the environment itself and the fact that you spend a lot of time outside on like at the border where everything that is coming out is going to be stronger uh like the wind is stronger, the white out are stronger. So it's like I don't know. I like this this kind of like a discomfort that is for me it's like one of the reason to kind of like um it's it's not for It's not much for the for the radical self-reliance. I think it's it's like a a um it's like you have the chance to to to be in a dialogue with the environment on your own and still you are kind of safe. I mean at the very end it like needs to be really dramatic in order to to be that that you like it's not that the nature put you in danger but you have the you feel the the danger in your heart and you have to kind of fight it, you know, and then you you get friend and then you get ideas and you get also a lot of respect that grows and stay in your heart. So for me the desert is really just like a very uh very important part of uh of Black Rock City and even though the regionals can be every every environment is gives you this uh this possibility uh but that one of course because of the scale uh it's a it's a little bit more majestic than usual let's say like it's a very very amazing place that that that those folks managed to find

uh years ago. So yeah, that I like a lot.

That's why I don't know. I always kind of think many people will say it's like oh the regionals are the future of Burning Man and like I'm like yeah I agree but you know like I think it's it's it's it's kind of like an ecosystem you know where it's like there there will always be Black Rockck City and then there will always be like regionals kind of sometimes like if you look almost like the Olympics you know

it's like it's like Oh, you know, it's like people can come together in Black Rockck City from all over the world and like, you know, at all of these like, you know, smaller like more regional events, you know, but it's like there's no like I don't know like the Olympic Committee. It's like I it's like they're not telling you what to do, you know? It's just like each community kind of like has like, you know, their artists and their community and, you know, and then they all we kind of like add it to like, you know, in one chaotic place. I mean, who knows? Maybe somewhere else will come along, you know, they'll be like, it's like, oh yeah, absolutely. Somewhere in Turk, Menistan, you can have like 200,000 people or, you know, I mean,

yeah, whatever. I mean, I think that the scale is really much less than the and some places are suited, I think, for bigger crowds and uh and uh and of course, Breer City is one of them because I think it feels like I mean, I think that the issue is like maybe the like is it's like it's the logistics But the relationship with the environment is like so phenomenal. Actually,

the fact that the city is so big make the interaction with the environment even more interesting because it's not like it would be much easier if it were like 10,000 people or 5,000 people to to react to to all of the to the dust stom and to the rain and the things really like we are many and and if you're thinking about I mean I live in a 20 million city so for me the idea that the interaction of is with the multitude like is between environment and multitude for me is like is a normal thing in my brain. So I'm not I don't think that

I'm I'm not surprised by that. There are other places that smaller crowd would make it uh uh more challenging because you don't have enough resources. And here you probably have too much resources. So you need to kind of like

like scale down very quickly mentally in order to be able to just not get everything destroyed. You know

kind of different experiences. different levels, you know, like something with, you know, like like the 250 people like on an island or, you know, like 650 or 900 like over here or, you know, someone like I just went to like to unscrews, you the Santa Cruz one, it was like what 3,3500. I mean, um

I mean numbers,

but also it's it's Yeah, it's not quantity, it's quality, right? You know, I mean it's about like you could have like I mean we did events on the beach years ago. It was just like 40 people and it was like No generator, no nothing, you know. We're just like in and we did like a clean up and we had like a bonfire and we had just acoustic music and we had a great time.

Of course. Of course. Yeah. No, I think that the I think it's very I mean I think not having a great time is just because you haven't thought about having a great time. I mean, if you think about it, you just have it and it's it's cool. I'm a very

I I I try to make things like simpler and uh straightforward, you know? This is like It's just up to you honestly. It's just like up to all of us in any moment. Which I think is something I learned probably or or or the burn helped to it's kind of like brought this inspiration in uh in general. You know, if you want to make it good, you make it good.

Yeah. So, um what's your what was your life like before encountering Burning Man? Like where'd you where'd you grow up? Like had you what what got you here?

So, as um Um well I grew up in Italy and uh actually the um well the reason why when I saw this that that sign that was talking about the possibility of a China regional the reason why I was attracted it was because I knew about Burning Man before. Uh so like for me something since since of the time of uh uh of of Baker Beach I' I've been growing up I grew up in Italy in in kind of like a uh activist and underground movement scene. So between squat and steel organized events with different kind of like uh uh radical intention, we were building like welding uh art piece and machine by ourselves like then like the the hack meeting and like uh three software movement. And so we we we we knew that there was something in the United States, very far away, very very far away place. And then these people were doing some very do it yourself stuff involving some fire thing. It was very fascinating for us. I mean, I think I was looking at them as a sort of a oh, this is like kind of like a cool anarchist gathering and they're doing the things with logistic that they have that we don't have in Europe, but we were basically doing the same thing even if not maybe with the idea of like

a catering of that scale.

So, it's kind of like always be one of those thing that oh maybe one day we will go and and blah blah blah and and being part of a uh like self-organizing movement for for basically like since I was in the high school uh I cannot really say that everything at Bernie man was new actually that's not the case but I think it was interesting for me the fact that you because it's is like it's more um like it's not a political movement like it's not like I mean I was coming from very involved kind of communities and then all of a sudden these things kind of expand to be like a a culture related sort of thing where you can I think that the idea of the 10 principle together and the fact that there is so many so much people that so many people that are doing this things and so many people that show a diversity uh even though you don't have a you're not coming from the same background that was like really fascinating to me

and it kind of like make me get out of of I was basically doing the the same thing but now I can just then I just like of course I do it this way. It's kind of like is the most normal uh like you get things organized and you help each other and you you build what you need. Uh you fix what you what it doesn't work and uh and if you fail like you just keep going or you improve yourself or you give yourself some uh time for rest. I don't know just like this sort of mentality. It it kind of like for me was a was cool that I I moved to another country and I kind of like was very difficult. I still have the relationship with my communities, but I had to change my communities. This was kind of perfect.

It was just like absolutely perfect because I could be the person that I was and just like continue and and uh yeah, just keep growing in a way.

Well, I don't know. One way you could look at is almost not quite like a rebranding, you know, some people would say, you know, it's like before you're an activist. Now you're an artist, you know, it's like achieving the same goals, but you know, it's like but, you know, branding it in a different way.

Yeah, I think Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think that more the branding is kind of like a little bit uh

yourself. Yeah.

Expanding. Yeah. Like it's just like a different way and he actually give more strength to

you you actually get more option of of uh you have more ways and means to be an activist once you tap into an actual creative

community where the creativity is uh like the the it's kind of like is a little bit sharpened and then you have more means and I have more opportunity to to to kind of learn. That's one of the reason why I go back. I mean because I'm learning every time like cool things and and just like to make things

by myself. So your your your tools just become sharper. So there's no reason why I should stop this process. I cannot really think about him.

Yeah.

So, is when what time of year does Dragon Burn happen or is it just once a year?

It's the first uh week of May from usually May 1st to May 5th is aligned to the Labor Day holiday and um which is May like International Labor Day is May 1st. So, there is five days of holiday and that's where usually we place it. Ah.

Oh, wow. It's funny. A lot of things are in May. But yeah, it's funny. I was talking to um someone else who's talking about like when when to plan like a date and I said, "Well, you have a permit for to do one event a year. Pick like for a four-day thing." It's like pick the best four days of the year, you know, for for your spot,

you know, because like I mean undoubtedly there's going to be something in like Colorado or South Africa or Germany or ever you know like just to do

yeah you cannot there there's there's no way and the Africa burn is also like more or less the same dates there's there's something in uh I think there is a early burn in Europe or something there there is there's no there are too many I mean we the the number of regional burns are more than the week that are available on on a calendar year so this makes the math quite easily

so also

doesn't matter

was like a couple of years ago how was they talking to I was talking to some of like people up at BR in Britain in the project, you know, the organization and we're trying to figure out like just like how many people have gone to like and to to Black Rock City and then they pretty much expanded like anyone who's been to like any regional or to Burning Man and at least once and the number came out to something like like a million.

Mhm. Yeah.

And then you got to think like the second and third order of magnitude people, you know, it's like oh like the people who are are like, you know, related to them or friends with them, you know, like like you're saying like, "Oh, yeah, I'd heard about this thing like years before I went." You know, it's like you're you're kind of, you know, bringing breathing in like the secondhand smoke, you know?

Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. The numbers is very is very high, but I'm used to like I go to I try to go to like two two or three regionals every year

also because this guy kind of nice. Yeah. But also it's nice to to kind of like I mean in this part of the world like there are some amazing community like the I was mentioning like Japan and in particular and then New Zealand that start to go Kiwi Burn is also like fantastic. Um you try try to do like two or three but many like most of the people that I know that are involved they try to kind of do a couple of uh uh events a year and then it's um sometimes the same came sometimes because maybe you start to do a project of some kind or you have a particular crew that you want to work with for for a little bit.

Mhm.

And uh or maybe just because you want to see how are other things uh around and how people that's been running events for long time and and what is the you you always try to improve a little bit uh yourself and and get inspiration from from the others. So is the Yeah, that's like I think I would say the for from the most for many of the people here that we we kind of like like to to to travel. I mean it's it's the it's not that expensive to go for us to go to Japan is like really quite cheap like the flights are cheap. So

not something that you have to think too much. It's not like oh you have to go to the US okay now you kind of need to do a little bit of uh counting but is this is fairly like affordable.

Well, okay, here's another separate question because I just started thinking, you know, I was like, Dragon Burn sounds like a lot of fun, you know, it's like I'd like to go, you know, but then, you know, someone coming from, you know, a far away to to to your regional, you know, it the same same thing applies, you know, it's like showing up in a plane with like a duffel bag, you know, it's like could you just I mean, so where dragon burden happens, like can you just kind of show up in a tent And I mean or maybe hook up with some like local burners or

you guys like so I mean we are all we we are all intents. I actually I don't even have a tent. I just have a hammock. So

I just need a hammock.

Wow. How warm is it? Like is it

It's okay. Like May May is okay. It could be a little bit chilly at night but it's never too crazy. But for people that come to outside and get in touch with us and if it's it's about finding one more sleeping bag or or a tent that usually has never been a problem. Like our logistic is very I think what one of the things that is very funny for me is that people that discome that like our logistic is fairly simple like our ticket is $25 US. Okay. Then you pay $15 to the

to the landlord for a camping fee because now we keep it separated. But it's $25. It's like nothing them the what like how things cost in this country. Also, the logistic like if you want to arrive to the airport, take a taxi and and and drive to the venue with a taxi is going to be $50 max and it's like 250 kilometers. Okay. So, it's like we're talking about something that it becomes all of a sudden extremely affordable and extremely easy to organize.

Wow.

This year we had a few the Japanese friends were they were like So cool because we got in touch last year and some of us we went to their burn and then they say okay we're coming and uh and they they bought the flight ticket in uh maybe I don't know December or January like very early and we usually don't start any planning work until March and I told them guys it's too early don't do that like just wait but they bought the flight ticket and then at the end of March we announced that the event would have not happened Of course, they were pissed off because they because they wanted to bring all their thing and and the fashion show and the art pieces and this and that.

Oh wow.

And then we said, well, the event is not happening, but we're kind of like going there, so you guys should still come, you know. So, it was this kind of like informal thing happening where the some of the thinker were there. Not everybody was there, but some of the thinker were there, a few of the artists were there 300 people show up. They brought their fashion show and their thing and it turns out to be fantastic.

Yeah. Was that this year?

So it's like Yeah, it was this year. So it's just like it's very easy to like it's very easy to organize logistic and people sometimes is of course say oh I'm coming with nothing. What can I do? But it's like we have support and it and also it's very easy to do things here. But uh and it's so easy that a hammock. Even if I I I just like it's just the best things I could do. I love to sleep in a hammock and the forest is amazing.

So, it's perfect.

But um but also in Black Rock City, I sleep in a I my tent is minimal and my bed is three years ago, we bought the fridges because we we went from being a zero electricity camp to be a fully solar camp in one shot. And so, we bought this two fridges for the camp. And my bed is literally the two cardboard of the fridges. is just like because it's insulating from the cold of Playa is insulating from the heat of playa. It's soft enough. It fits exactly on my tent. It's disposable. I don't have to carry it. I just leave it in the container and I just put like a a soft blanket on top of it. I'm done. And it's and it's easy to, you know, clean from the dust. It's just perfect. And people think you're you're crazy. Like

it's the box that the freezer came in with the with the styrofoam and everything.

Yeah. No, without the styrofoam. Just the cardboard.

Just the cardboard.

Just two.

Just two cardboard boxes. Like Yes.

So, you're limited. A cardboard box on the Playa. That's That's hard to sleep on top of a cardboard box.

Oh, I thought you

I don't live inside. No, that would that would be an idea for the future.

Yeah. You can have a whole camp, you know. You could have like a little village, you know, and have like little roofs and like I remember when my son was small like Yeah. We got a big of like full of ratchet to not fly away. No, no. I don't live in a cardboard box.

The first rain that comes by, it's all like, oh,

all right. Um, so let's get to the last question. So, the Yeah. So, what is the impact or influence of Burning Man on your life? So, it's it's it's shadow on you like over all these years, you know? It's like how is it? Yeah. Everyone says they go to the play like what changed me, you know? It's like what does that mean? Yeah.

You know,

well, yeah. I think that I I think that you you just like uh like you understand that you can live in a different way, you know. I think that if once you experience uh large scale event that that actually look but also feel like society Then you just like this this idea that you're not going back but you are like just bringing with you what make this society function in in in the way that is more uh suitable that you think that is better and so I think that this over the year is kind of like a this is this is what what's happening you know I mean you smile more you're you're more kind with people you you have this idea of helping and then you understand that people is not used to be helped you know people is not used to be smiled at and and this is just like so stupid you know like it's it's cost nothing so I think that this little you you just like you have the possibility to live for enough amount of time in ways that that change like that that inspire you to just be better to yourself at first. So this something that can just continue elsewhere and uh and I I think this is important. I mean, I think that's that's after all regardless of the scale of the event or the place or or whatever, this is what make this this work and this play so meaningful. Uh

so when you first

repeated

Yeah. So when you you first experienced uh Dragon Burn in 2014 and you met these people and you're like, "Wow, this is really interesting." And then you were like, "Yeah, now I'm going to go to Black Rockck City like you know the following year." Like did you was it like relatable like the experience? you know, I mean the this whatever it was that you experienced at Dragon Burn like you like, oh yeah, I see this also like at at Black Rock City maybe like at a larger degree or scale like

yeah I think slightly yes it was uh well of course the things that is relatable is also because you go by by scale so you do your first event then in Black Rockck City the first thing that you most likely do was like build like building the camp and then you're building the camp in an environment that you absolutely have no idea. And then there was that was a year with a huge it was like a kind of like a 60 70 miles um like windstorm for like seven or eight hours and I remember that the the camp was flying and I was like I was holding one of the po one of the all of the shade structure with my hand and someone were holding my my my wrist but I I was kind of like I was like 20 cm like flying out you know and so That thing make you understand that it's like that you need to be helped too that you need to figure it out how how how it goes. And of course we got heat stroked even though we were doing everything right and drinking and all of these things and we got me and my friend heatstroked and then and then we saw like we had like this enormous squirrel of like like screaming against each other because I was like because she was kind I don't remember what was the thing but it was like try fixing the state like ratcheting the shade structure. And I was like, "Oh, come on. I think this is a moment where we could learn a little bit of a communal effort." And and and she was saying, "Well, maybe we could learn radical self-reliance instead, you know." And then we know when you use the principle as a dart that you just throw to each other.

Touche.

Yeah.

Touche, you know. Exactly. So, it was so funny in the moment, but it lasted for a little time because then we got all both of us stroke and then we were just like collapsed on the chair.

But but it it put you to the edge where you can you really have you really see the edge. So if you see the edge then you kind of understand you recalibrate yourself much more easily. And so for us it's still something that we laugh a lot about because we just as soon as it was possible we were just like really like throwing principle like against each other to try to find our own place in that crazy situation. you know.

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. So, I don't know. I often ask people, you know, like what like what did what did you take home from Burning Man? But it's almost like it's like, well, you kind of picked whatever it is that lesson is like up first and then went to Burning Man, you know, and then it became a little different, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think uh one other things that I really like is the fact that there's there's no there's there's no limits to to be surprised about something like to there is no limits to how things can be like uh special or absurd or like detailed like meaningful in a way like just very little thing but the the amount of of uh yeah the amount of care that you can see in how the things are made of course the art is like for me it's much is becoming much more interesting the small scale art and not the big art or the big art that that needs has this like kind of like you zoom in like the power of pen you know like you just go zoom in in and then you find like the one cm little thing

that is just like phenomenal

or you find someone that is just giving like saying or giving the right thing to you in in the moment where is most helpful you know I think is is this this is I think it come from a sense of care where where you are into this environment where we are supportive of of each other but also of everything that is there. So this become like all of a sudden very easy and that's I think is very good. It's very doesn't occupy space and you can bring it home with you in big quantity and then you can really just play with that a lot because it's probably the thing that is most needed in a society where everybody's taking care of their own and s***. And uh uh so that I think is really cool. Yeah.

Wow. That's beautiful. Yeah.

All right.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Okay. Well, um it's about an hour and 10 minutes. Anything else you want to add? Um yeah. Oh, is there like a website for or or or Facebook page like for Dragon Burn or like Yeah. need to actually share. So there is one website that is called dra dragonburn.org. It's not necessarily the most updated. There is also a Facebook also dragon burn I think it's dragon China but if you can try to check on the fly and give you

but it should be easy to to find as dragon burn.

All right.

And um and these are probably the best like the email is info@dragonburn. Yeah, dragonburn China on Facebook and dragonburn.org website and info at dragonburn.org um for anybody coming from uh with the information and and things and um we're always very happy and uh maybe I can say something a little bit more on Uh I mean it's it's interesting because we we have a lot of occasion to share about the our regional or in general our event which is of course very different and very particular but there is um um because we were talking about the logistic before it's kind of like we are really very um we can never be sure about how things turn out and uh it's not like I see a lot of other regional where people is of course like in this big uh uh challenge and also endeavor to get the things organized to have the department and to have the people in charge and the leadership and all of these things which makes sense for like if you are in a functioning side of the world but here is the opposite. It's kind of like you try to get things organized but there is always this emergency situation that pops up one way or the other. So there is we have this capacity of making things out of nothing and out of like again like you change the venue in three days. I'm sure that in other in in many other places people would just it's not that they would have give up that they don't have the possibility to actually do it so quickly.

Yeah.

To just like reinvent. So we're kind of interesting for all of this things. So we maybe it's it's like the same maybe we cannot tell you two months in advance what's going to happen but if you come something will happen and you would love it. For sure. Guaranteed.

It's funny. Like I've had a lot of the same experiences like here in Hawaii like doing the regional stuff. Like yeah, we had an event that we've been planning for months and literally it was like the night before the gate was supposed to open like the the Mormon church who owned the land, you know, they just were just kind of just like, "Wait, is this what you're doing?" No, no, you're not. We had a contract and everything. you know, but it was like and so yeah, we had to struggle within like a day, you know, I mean, we had people flying in from other countries and stuff, you know, we're like, uh,

and you managed

we managed to find a place, but it's like, yeah, we but here in Hawaii, it's like it's it's it's almost impossible to find a like an event location. I mean, there's lots of places that are that look great, you know, but like the land owners are like either like the federal government or the US Army or the state of Hawaii like or these large large land like dole or something and they're just not interested in like you know it's like oh we'll leave no trace and and and we'll leave it better but then like

you know you could make a couple like tens of thousands of dollars for like nothing and they're just like as a drop in the bucket like no

yeah

no

well anyway it's been going on an hour and 14 so um thank you very much and

thank you

yeah I'll talk

I hope it was I hope it was interesting for you and for everybody that will listen to The Shadow of the Man.

All right. Well, thank you very much.

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