EP 80 Mark Day

Episode 80 with Mark Day is out now! Meet Mark Day, a veteran Burner and filmmaker known for his long-form documentation of the Burning Man festival. The conversation explores Mark's creative evolution from capturing raw footage in the late 1990s to his modern "24 Hours at Burning Man" series, highlighting how he uses meta-fiction, catchphrases, and humor to create a sense of pilgrimage for his viewers. He discusses the generational shift in festival culture, the tension between gatekeeping and accessibility, and the responsibility of influential groups to promote acculturation and the principle of Leaving No Trace. Mark views his work as a conduit for personal transformation, aimed at helping both newcomers and veterans navigate the "sacred and profane" complexities of the desert experience.

IG: @mister_mark_day

Youtube: @markdaycomedy

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Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of burning man up and out. So sit back, relax and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host Andy. Can this be real? Yes, it's that Andy. Today our guest is Mark Day. Welcome Mark.

Oh hey it's you. Andy,

it's the real Andy.

Let's go talk about Burning Man right now.

So, yeah, I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time. Uh, so for I do have some listeners who's who've never been to Burning Man. I'm I'm sure anyone who's been to Burning Man, who's been on social media knows who Mark Day is and some of your amazing uh

I mean,

like animations and videos.

Sure. Um, yes and no. I mean, okay, so for context, Next. Um, I have been making and posting um posting whatever content content most videos about Burning Man. Um,

how long have you been doing?

Pretty much as well. So, this is the thing. I had a video camera and I've already Let's Let's try and explain then I'll explain how long. So, I had a video camera. I bought a video camera in 1999. Uh, I first went to Burning Man in 1997. Um, in 98 somebody came along with our group who made a German guy called Basti uh who made a a video um of you know a a threeinut fast edited set to Sitrans the proper the one true music of Burning Man is Sitrans. Um and when I saw it um you know, months later in when he screened it in some apartment in someone's house, I literally just I had like goosebumps and I was looking at it and I was thinking I'll that's what I want to do.

So, I made a video of the following year. Um, and as I've probably said on some other podcasts, Burning Man has like a built-in story arc. You know, there's like a, you know, a preamble of going to Home Depot. and or other big stores. No commodification, but that's where we met. And for a long time, that was the only time in my life that I'd ever been to a big hardware store was stuff for Burning Man. That is in my head. You're going to a big hardware store, you're probably buying PVC pipes, you know, only later have I had to buy things for minor repairs around the house. I'm wow, we're not any but anyway, focus mark. Um,

so story arc of Bernie man.

Right. Well, the story arc of Burning Man. So, you've got the the preamble of getting ready to go and then you drive there. So, you're on a journey and things change along the journey and like, you know, if you've if you're going for the first time, you might be like, "Oh, we're" and you're a city kid like me, you'd be like, you see sort of scrubby um countryside, you're like, "Oh, we're in the desert now." And then some of the vegetation dissipates, you're like, "Oh, we're not really in the Oh, this is more like the desert. And then you get there and you have to build a thing. Um, and then hope, if you're lucky, people enjoy the thing. Um, and then you go home. So, you know, there's a bit, you know, there's an art. And so, the very first video I made, came home, um, plugged it into a TV and just ran it straight off the like, you know, the camcorder and it was at least to me because I was, you know, it was all triggering memories for me, but just felt like a a perfect sort of, you know, hour-long time, you know, I could call it a time capsule. Now, at the time, it didn't feel like a time, but it felt like a basically it turned into going out. Um, there was a bit of an over I sort of jokingly mentioned Syrance, but you know, me My friends would go to a club in um actually we we also went to some mainstream clubs and saw DJs like Paul Oaken fold if we're very honest but we would also go and see these like sitrans DJs and then come back to my buddy Alli's apartment and then I would be like who wants to go to Burning Man which basically means let's put that video in again and and as we just slowly chill out go on that journey. So that was really the first video was really for me and you know, a couple of friends to to to kind of relive that arc over and over again. And then when YouTube came along, um,

but with that first video, was that just you it was just straight you were just recording stuff or did you like actually edit it?

Oh, so I should have said that, right? So there was no editing cuz it's straight out the camera. There is that sort of preamble beginning journey road trip

and you started in the beginning like you're in San Francisco or Bay or whatever.

Yeah. And that Well, okay. So like I I have weapons grade ADHD. So anything any introduce any new subjects matter at your peril but yes I basically the video is in chronological order now many years and many many videos later um it has become a sort of elaborate meta fiction for myself and that's a pretentious way of saying it's full of in jokes that refer back to things I said in previous videos, um, andor if I want to get pretentious about it, um, I'm still, if anything, more so coming to terms with the fact that although I have in a lot of ways restructured the video around personal editing choices, um, M

a big choice being that these days in the world of video in general, in the commercial world of video or online video, people would say you have to hook them in. So you pretty much have to drop them off in the middle of Burning Man. And that's why my videos are now structured like they start at Burning Man. They start with an opening sequence that has a lot of eye candy that sort of says, "If you'll stick around, you'll see some of this stuff." Um, and they're sort of like experientially draw popping you straight into the experience and but I've always loved the journey. So

the the moment that I realized I could just play with the conventions of film making man and smash cut to 20 minutes in actually let's go back to the beginning that's that's a narrative device that I use. Um

so you'll start with like some ply like meltdown or whatever then some crazy And then it'll be like 72 hours earlier.

I mean, like,

not yes and no.

Like, should we get the large cheesecake or not? You know,

pretty much. Well, it's more I mean,

I think I think I'm go I I think I'm kind of talking around a lot of the more um interesting questions for me.

Sure.

May not be as interest. So,

just to so just to back up a little bit. So, I've been making these long form videos since before there even was a YouTube.

Um, when YouTube came along, I was um dabbling in doing like, you know, open mic standup comedy in in a laundromat in San Francisco. And when online video came along, um, there was the moment where I was like, wait a minute, I could wait in line behind 30 other people for 2 minutes standing on a stage. to while people did their laundry. Or I could just record myself saying the same things, edit them up a little bit, throw them up on YouTube and in the early days of YouTube, you know, anybody with limited inhibitions and strong opinions um could both post video. It was easier to be found. It was easier to be discovered or discoverability um

was there. So I was making like, you know, the same kind of video content that people were doing when people were figuring out what the format was. Um, you know, that face close to the camera, rapid edits, strong opinions about something. Um, and the Burning Man stuff was kind of separate and it took a while before I even posted some of it. Um, but I eventually started integrating the two and then over a long period, you know, I I was making these long form videos at a time probably nobody else really was. So, they were again, you know, because a these videos are awesome. And I should point Okay, let's let's go Steph, good luck editing this. That's all I can say. Um or deciding to throw it all out and start again, whatever whatever works. Um so, in In 2011, I went we I you know I I went through the other arc. So there's the arc of the journey to Burning Man. There's the

leaving your house and driving there and going through Reno and all of these things. And I would also say because I'm not from here and I, you know, America is something that I originally experienced through the medium of television and movies. There is a little bit of a romanticism about some aspects of being here that I really enjoy. You know, it's all anytime I'm ever in LA, for example, I'm always like, it always feels slightly more like, oh, wait a minute, you're in another country. How weird and fun and cool is that? Whereas, if I'm in the Bay Area in San Francisco, it's less in my face because I'm here all the time. Um, but anyway, so one point waffle waffle, you can cut all of that. that um our camp our original camp was called Magic Glasses Camp. It ran from 1999 to about 2003 and then it kind of I don't want to say it it ran its course. Um and this is in the you know the pre and the pre-in era in a way you know now even then I guess there was somebody who would be like I have this packing list and it's the only you know you must bring all the things of the packing list and you know if you don't have the right kind of rubbing alcohol to go with that particular tweezers god knows what will happen if you stand on a splinter because no whatever um and you know generic advice like don't divorce your parakeet or whatever but like it. The whole the whole notion of running a camp would still probably be kind of a lot less complex than what somebody on a a Facebook theme camp organizing mailing list or whatever would experience today. There was no real

people take us so seriously nowadays.

Well, I mean, and I'm glad they do.

Well, I mean, you go to the desert, you got to have some level of seriousness, but I mean,

I I mean, it's it it was a little bit less codified and you know, there's

Well, also, don't you think like with with more experience, like if you've been a couple of times, you're kind of like, okay, like I could do this on a short-term notice, someone's like, "Hey, let's go to Birdman right now." Like, go to your garage.

Yeah.

So, as I was sort of meandering around, there was no process for if your camp has sort of of hit um maximum number of members and maybe strayed a little bit beyond that. And the the kind of cohesion is starting to kind of bifurcate into two different or more different little you know clusters of interest.

What do you do?

And I don't know that any you know you know who owns the infrastructure whose house is it sitting underneath in some crawl space and and you know who's responsible for moving that if they don't want it there anymore and all of that. I don't know that we really had a playbook for that back then. So whatever the point is I did take a break um I think 2004 I didn't go back 200 maybe it was three years then I went back in 2000 I don't it's a little the dates don't matter as much as

yeah yeah

I went in 2011 Um, I camped with uh Christopher Shard's uh Christopher who does the Mariposa and the the giant spinning light wheel of classical music that comes down that I'm blanking on the name of it now. Um, long ter longtime Burning Man artist. Um, at the time he was still working in uh rocket fuel and uh powered tether sort of immersive rocket experiences. He did something called the garden of rockets. Um and then the char wash where you would go inside this kind of penned off area and these like propane I don't know what they were. Anyway, camp with his guys.

Um and at that point, one other thing that had happened is we had kids and then we had a second kid and that's exponent. That's not two times one kid, that's exponentially more kids. It was a lot of work. Um, and I wasn't supposed to go in 2012. I feel I've told this story a bunch of times. I'll try and speedrun it. Um, I was in an office working at a a sort of online video company. Um, I had a big monitor on my desk. I was looking at the live stream and it was just video at that point. I, you know, a 10 video camera occasionally pointed in a slightly different direction, but

a coworker was like, "Mark, what you doing?" And the event had already started.

I'm hard at work. What do you look like I'm doing?

Well, wait. You So you and I was sort of going, "Right, okay. See that over there?" Like there's just a person that's a video of a person walking on the open ply. Maybe they're walking back from the temple to the esplanade or maybe they're walking back from the man. It doesn't doesn't matter. What matters is like I have such a sense memory of

the experience of being at Burning Man that just watching that I can

Oh, yeah.

I could teleport myself almost through my brain into that person's shoes,

you could smell it, right? Yeah.

You can smell, right? And then this guy's goes, "Oh, interesting." Because it looks to me like you're torturing yourself. And I was like, "Yes." So, without getting into too much of the details. I decided to go on a whim. Um,

right then,

right. Kind of. I mean, I was working at a tech company. There was an internal ma mailing list of burners at um and I thought if I can get a ticket, I could just I could because I had that mindset of it's only it's not that far away. You could totally go.

Um,

that's a slight oversimplification, but I you know, those it's sold. Those the first couple years it sold out, right?

Additional layer of can I get a ticket and the entire ticket economy at that time was an awful lot of people posting on uh like Craigslist and then some guy who would be able to pay for the ticket, but first he had to drive down to Santa Cruz because somebody owed him 20 bucks for pizza. And the entire economy of Santa Cruz, much like Hawaii, I'm sure, runs on the the notion that everybody owes everybody else $20 for pizza and or pot and if somebody defaults on that the entire economy collapses.

Yeah.

And I just at the time realized that the p the fastest path to cut through this was I will pay full price for your ticket because it was a little bit of everybody trying to get you know trying even at the sellout time to try and get people you know people were like trying to pay below face value and I was just like just I I just need a ticket. I don't need a a side quest to Santa Cruz. I just

I'll pay the extra $20 for the weed. Whatever. Like

whatever. Well, I it was just like Yeah. I was just I I'm not looking to make anybody feel like they had taken a a loss on the ticket.

And you didn't feel like someone was going to try and like take advantage of you or like I'll just take your money?

Absolutely. That's exactly what happened. Um I I drove. It was only on the way there that I registered that the the guy who had sold me the ticket had a gift ticket and it said gift ticket on the the ticket and the drive up there. I'm like, if I get there and the guy scans the ticket and goes, "Oh, are you part of so and so's crew?" They're all in. But I I don't know. I was just like, "Oh, I hope I'm not f*****." But I got in so I basically told my wife I was going for a day and

a day

a day as in as in if I left now I could be up there. And once I got there, I decided I was going to try and leave 24 hours after I arrived because that made it a project rather than uh just circumstance. Um I'm going I'm just here for a day. Um, and interestingly to me, there's a guy who um John, I forget his last name. Um, I don't think he works for he doesn't work for Burning Man anymore, but he was part of the the communications team for a while. He did a blog post. He was there the same day that I was there, and he spent 24 hours in the at the temple and blogged about it.

Uh,

it's really If you can find that online, it's really I think it was just really cool because he just basically focused on a single thing for 24 hours. And even though

even though I absolutely do the opposite, which is to make the most comprehensive uh piece of documentation I can. Some of my favorite documentation is just taking one moment in time um and documenting that. There are two examples I can give you of that. one is I think you can find it on Vimeo. It's about the Trojan horse. Um, and most of this 20inut documentary is really just about can you move the Trojan horse 300 ft or whatever without it rolling over and squishing people. There's a band there and they're waiting. Spoiler alert. They're like, "We have a wedding to play at. Are you moving?" It's the classic burning man thing of a perfect moment of they've got volunteers waiting to do a thing but they're not sure if they can do it. The band are like we're here to play for you while you do this but if you don't do it soon we have to leave all of that and yeah that's a fun video because it's more like just a moment in time and this guy John went to the temple spent 24 hours there and asked what I and it was a particularly dusty dust storm because I remember wandering around that night thinking stop looking for the party. Mark, go back to your tent and sleep because any time you're spending wandering around in a dust storm with no real purpose is just tame you're taking away from yourself tomorrow. So, and it was, you know, so it was an interesting project and bizarrely somebody was doing something similar at the same time. Um,

but you also only had 24 hours there. Well, seemingly

so you could be like, well, go to sleep. It was like you're wasting time.

Well, I mean, well, so Part of the point was for me, one of the reasons that I wanted to leave um 24 hours after I arrived is I've had the experience of driving in a you know a rental truck driving home from Burning Man in the dark and like a you know there's a cow on the road or whatever you know out you know out near whatever Nixon or whatever. Um or just the exhaustion of be knowing that you have two more hours to drive and you're worried that you're going to fall asleep at the wheel. So, one of the reasons for trying to leave and at a specific time was to not tempt myself to stay for another two hours and another two hours and another two hours and my wife's wondering where I'm gone and then I'm trying to drive home. And so, it was like it was, you know, common sense wrapped in the wrapper of experiential project. Um, hence the name of the video for that year was 24 hours at Burning Man. And I just stuck with the title. And then last year, um, one of the things I've been doing, which is, and we really need to back up. Maybe you need to stick this at the start. So, so basically since 2012, I've published a featurelength video every year um, about my experience at Burning Man. under the name 24 hours at Burning Man. Um, when they started out, it was really just an extension of the kind of videos I'd made in the past. Um, I just happened to call it 24 hours at Burning Man because, um, over the next couple of years, like 2013, 2014, um, I started embedding myself with a project andor just interviewing artists and participants. cuz the early ones it's mostly just me just being at Burning Man. And then um my sort of second era of going to Burning Man was uh after the first era was the magic glasses camp which lasted you know 99 through about 2003.

I actually remember that camp. It was like you had

a lot of people do. So basically magic glasses camp was a light tunnel on the esplanad made of PVC pipes came and Christmas tree lights.

Christmas tree lights. Yeah. Like the polariz generator about the size of a microwave oven, if not smaller. And that was boys and girls at home.

Hot s***.

I know. I remembering things on the play. Yeah. Yeah.

There was that was what that was what it took to get on the esplanad at Burning Man and we had a line of people outside every single night. We had a big box of uh light defracting glasses. So when you went into this tunnel, the light is split out into the the spectrum. And

well, I remember that because like I remember walking by and people were just like

what's the big deal? It's just a bunch of Christmas lights just like and then they're like no, you got to wear the glasses and then like people looking at like just Christmas lights and they put the glasses on. You're like

oh especially people are like at some sort of hallucinogen they're just like oh man

this is it. Yeah, absolutely. It was was a very early it iteration, who knows, arguably the first of a full-on tripper trap that was and it sort of grew out of I mean the glasses we used to take to you know we used to go to Sitran raves and stuff and wear these glasses on the dance floor. Um and it was very basic, you know, it was just very basic stuff. It wasn't like it was, you know, It was the Mayan warriors tail light budget when

well that was like back in the day like that was sort of like early man. It was a lot of like what people call obtanium you know or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or where or people would just find found objects and then just make the most crazy things from them. Like now it's like it's like oh I'm going to have something fabricated in China and shipped over.

Right. I mean it was it was a different time. So

yeah

I so the second era for me of Burning Man was going as part of uh a kind of regional group called East Bay burners and

yeah yeah

east does do east burn I mean it was around the time around I guess whatever 2011 12 whatever burning man for about three years I think maybe four had a program called the circle of reg effiges. Um, which was a series of

I actually started that.

You did? Well, there you go. I

I I kind I was the one who kind of like thought up the idea, assembled all the gunpowder, like lit the fuse, and then I stepped back and was like, "Okay, you guys enjoy." And then

I Well, I'm glad you did because I participated in it. And

Oh, so how did you participate? I would

So again, you know, how we doing for time? Uh, don't worry about it. I'm I'm keeping an eye on it here.

Sure. So, I know at some point I'm supposed to go to a picnic. That's the only

So, the circle of regional effiges, um, as you would know, it was a circle of wooden burnable. This is, you know, if people are going like, oh man, not enough artwork on fire at Burning Man. This was a peak of, you know, there were a circle of what I don't even know how many, you know, was it It was like 20 something.

20 or something.

Yeah.

Not in a circle around the man so much as in I think four four sort of mini clusters.

Well, the first year 2011 I think it was this giant circle around the man

and then I don't know if it was for like fire safety or whatever, but they were I seem to remember them being like slightly clustered together in sort of four. I don't know. That's less important. Um

and the all were on the same sort of size of, you know, they all had the same pier footprint basically. Um, you know, they were all of a similar size and shape. And I think, you know, the first year um which I did not participate in was very um in some ways quite literal. It's like, you know, here's the, you know, a Burning Man regional group from Maine and they built a lobster pot.

Yeah.

The East Bay one. built the Oak Oakland um port cranes or whatever. So

yeah,

and over time they evolved I guess into um you know more you know more diverse and interesting stuff and some of it was again you know some of it was quite literal some of it was a bit more abstract whatevers. Um and I got involved in that through at the time. Um, possibly possibly Steven Raspa involved. I think they were

the Burning Man organization had a film crew who had gone and interviewed people making these effiges and created a media kit so that you could then create a little video for your regional area and have some pre-recorded uh B-roll footage of Steven Raspa talking about community or whatever that you could then punch in and you know then maybe you would have a video that you could you know

Mhm. Yeah.

show to people to show them what your project was about. Now classically what had happened is you know the fun stuff is filming that editing it is editing fun really for anybody? No. Um and I volunteer. They were looking for people to volunteer to actually finish this stuff off. So, I got a load of footage from uh it was a group in Montreal who had um their regional effigy was an effigy of uh portage which as I understand it is a Canadian um and possibly French Canadian practice of as you are like a first track Or would I guess it comes from for trappers, but like when you're kind of traversing conditions where there's both canoeing and then you might have to carry your canoe from one tributary to another and you can't your head and that is to portage a canoe. I as I learn

and I edited that together and then I was like if I want to do this again it would be fun. You know, it was fun tracking down what they had and They have some footage they filmed themselves and all of that. And then I decided if I was going to do it again, I would embed myself um with a local group, which is what I did. So I f, you know, I I was showing up uh at a place called Nimi um which no longer exists, but it's one of those sort of industrial Oakland um art building spaces of the time at the time, like the air pusher art car was there and various projects were built there. That was where the Trojan horse um was built. Um once the circle of regional effiges thing ran its course, um some of the same people uh worked on the alien siege machine, which was effectively a sort of reskinning of the the basic learnings from the Trojan horse with none of the hassle of having to roll it from point A to point B. It was a sort of HR Geiger's version of that. at

um and I documented that. Uh the following year some of those people were involved uh in aspects of the temple. So I was there for that. Um and all through this the videos that I'm making are getting a little bit more elaborate or self-reerential or you know I'm I I'm doing what for better word could be like catchphrases. Um,

and and so now fast forward to now, I'm basically sitting on 10 hours of footage from last year. I'm s******* my pants as to how I'm ever going to edit it. I think for a while uh the videos I were m was making really kind of hit the YouTube algorithm. So if you were searching for YouTube, you were get I mean you were searching for Burning Man at YouTube, you were getting it was surfacing a lot of my videos so I think a lot of people saw them um and you know as as much you know and there are sort of weird combination of things I do for my own amusement and and things I do with this constant sense that someone else is along for the ride.

Um so There's a lot of me talking directly to camera and you know um if you know at my you know at my you know at my worst I'm like why in God's name am I doing this? It's taking forever. Um and but my you know I will run into people who are at Burning Man for the first time and for them it's like they have a friend there that they just they have a parasocial relationship. with a guy they've watched on TV or I mean honestly like my favorite you know my favorite um sort of expressions of this are either I'll be wandering along and somebody you know and I can absolutely walk from point A to point B at Burning Man and be like wait a minute nobody's recognizing me this sucks I I need more I need to I need to have a look that makes me instantly recognizable um but yes I'm you know I quite enjoy always running into groups of people where somebody is quite excited to see me because they've seen me on the internet and the other two people have no f****** idea what they're on about and I just quite like to watch the watch person one have to explain to the other ones what I am while I watch that's one of my favorites. Uh yeah. Yeah. Talk me up. Tell me tell them I'm really Yeah, he's amazing. I'm like thank you. Keep going. Keep going. Is that it or

he's famous? I don't know who he is. No, he's famous.

That's fun because it is all of the It's it gets to play with the whole notion of the whole thing.

Yeah.

But there's also the I'll be wandering past go, "Oh, somebody go, "Oh my god, there's somebody I want you to be." And I'll be like, "Okay." And they'll they'll walk me back to their cab and then they'll go, "This is my dad. He didn't want to go and it's taken me a couple of years to persuade them to go." And he thought it was going to be one thing. And then I showed him some of your videos and he felt either that he could relate to some aspects of it or he understood it wasn't all one thing and and all of that. And I would say although ironically um the reach that my videos get I think is um on the definitely on the downs slope algorithmically and I'm also just more you know

the way people consume video content changes over time and it's now all short vertical type things and I'm absolutely embracing that. I do do take that responsibility somewhat seriously. Um I do enjoy it and I I you know it is one of the things for better or worse that keeps me making them is you know being that sort of onramp into Burning Man culture for people who might otherwise think it not welcoming to them or just not quite what they could you know. I think one of the

Yeah. Well, I think also nowadays with like the the modern world and social media and stuff like cuz like your first year was 97, my first year was 96 and like back then and it's like living in the Bay Area was just kind of like word of mouth and stuff and I mean maybe the beginnings of the internet you could find some like HTML pages and read some stuff but I think it's like how people kind especially younger people now consume things is like Tik Tok or or you know stories or like you know just like these short little videos and then maybe something will spark some interest and maybe they'll go to YouTube and watch something a little bit longer. Right.

I mean I Well, so this is this is the thing. Um unlike unlike I I I'm in the weird sort of place in the world where I am not affiliated with the Burning Man organization. Um I am not a spokesperson for the Burning Man organization. I am certainly not a shill for the Burning Man organization.

You don't get paid.

I don't get paid. I I don't get a ticket from them. Um I register my project with Media Mecca every year and I, you know, I I consciously try and um stay on, you know, the the right side of what is expected of people who document.

Um, I also I'm so waffling that I've forgotten where I was going with this. Um, I know I have a very pragmatic approach to how I feel about Birding Man and how modern social media works.

So when people are losing losing their minds over the fact that the Burning Man organization posted a video on Tik Tok that seemed more like a

commercial or something

a commercial than I'm like

or you just see that space to other people and you have to to some degree meet people where they are and some people would say that the opposite is true of Burning Man that Burning Man asks you to go somewhere that might be outside your comfort zone and see how that feels.

With that said, the biggest gamechanging thing in my life, which I now talk about all the time and seems very trit, which I learned from my teenage daughter and I thank her for so much, is the most basic thing possible. Several things can be true at the same time. Many things can be true at the same time.

Oh, of course.

And I will will say that, and this comes from my sample set, which is slightly skewed to people who are excited to see me at Burning Man, but I also do, and one of my favorite things to do at Burning Man is a backtoback double shift at gate, I mean at the greeter station on the first day of the event being open to people who do not have access early entry access. In other words, when Genpop shows up

and that's fascinating and that's so much fun

when the gates are open then the race is on and it's like

well it's people who have travel so I do it I do the sunrise shift I'm not standing there in the dark I want people um and it's eight hours of individual sociology projects because every car is its own little They're all the same and they're all different. It's a group of people. Often one person has been before and the others haven't. And they're on the cusp of something and I don't give a s*** about whether they ring the bell or not. That's for them. If they want to ring the bell, it's too loud and I walk away before that happens. And I like pairing off with somebody who gets my sense of humor. Um I know that the the whole rolling in the dust thing is fun and and I where I was waffling around is about trying not to

I'm a very judgy person, but when it comes to someone wants to take pictures rolling around in the dust, I'm like absolutely you should do that.

Yeah.

And the thing that I will always say when people are like because we also have a photo booth in camp and when people walk past and I'm like, you know, I've got a megaphone and I'm standing out front. I'm never going to twist somebody's arm to do it. But if I run into people where someone's like, "Oh, I don't take pictures." I'm a little bit like, "Okay, but your friend seems to want to just do it for them." And you're not doing it for them when you get home. You're doing it for them 10 years from now. Because if somebody handed you a role of old-fashioned film and said, "These pictures are you at Burning Man 20 years ago."

Oh, wow.

Do you want us to develop the film or do you want us to burn the film. I think most people would say develop the film.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I don't look right.

No, I don't think so. I think everyone

there's multiple versions of that, but there's also the version that's like I prefer to have my memories. And I'm like, I'm a middle-aged man who stands in front of the fridge a lot of the time wondering why I'm standing in front of the fridge.

Like, as memorable as all of this s*** is, if again, if somebody handed me a roll of film and said, said, "There's 20 pictures you've not seen of you 20 years ago at Burning Man. What do you want us to do?" That's the That's the choice that you could make.

Yeah.

Um

so where I was going So where I was going with the whole um

uh station thing is the one thing that I will do is I have a great big f****** wooden stick and I will draw a line in the sand or the dust proper zone trip style and ask people to

consciously and with intention. I'm a guy from Scotland. The fact that I am saying to people, would you like to set an intention now is both absurd and glorious. Um, so through this experience, and I know it takes me forever to get to the point. What I was going to say is there are people who will say, "Oh, influencers are just making the whole thing, so it's just a series of photooots for people or whatever." I have also talked to people plenty of people for whom the idea of going to Burning Man at all seems impossibly intimidating or something they had to work up to or something they didn't feel they were not ready for or they didn't feel they were ready for yet or they were worried people. One of the most inspiring and powerful female artists I know told me that when she came to Burning Man, she was absolutely terrified that somebody would interrogate her about the principles. And that's exactly what happened. And so, you know, both of those things can be true. And I think that all of the, you know, you might have to work harder for it, but I think all, you know, most or all of the what makes Burning Man a a fun and transformative experience is still there.

Um, and in terms of you can get your information from all these different places, honestly, some of those places are actively pushing people away and some of the people who think they're doing people a solid by making it like until you pass the troll bridge and answer these three questions, I cannot help you on your quest. I just I that just annoys me and I'm just basically, you know, I'm

against gatekeeping. That's my thing.

Exactly.

And I think

some aspect and I also believe that guess what the world is very different to how it w you know there is There is this talk and I've seen this talked about online about the generational cliff that Burning Man faces

in that the next you know there seem to be a lot of people online who are like I would be happy for it to go back to the way it was and and I just don't know if it is logistically andor philosophically possible for an organization to course shift and I don't even think it's course correction but like just essentially steward the well I mean on some level they may have to but like steward the downsizing of what a thing is

and if that is the case as in I hate to tell you this but in order for Burning Man to move forward, it still requires the shifting of X amount of tickets because they can't just go we'll just get you know less portaotty like I don't I'm not an infrastructure guy so I don't I don't know how that would play out but I do think that there is a a version of Birding Man where accommodations may have to be made to the fact that The people showing up are not welders from Oakland in or you know artists from Oakland 30 years ago who had access to welding tools and a f*** it let's weld something and if somebody gets hurt it's it's not that anybody would do that but like you know what I mean it's like

well like the infrastructure having like the warehouses and the volunteers and everything and then it's like close in Oakland like I mean yeah now you have people coming from all over the United States, all over the world, like people are are traveling from far away. It's like, can can you get a box truck to go from Estonia,

right? Well, also, you know, and I think I think everything that people complain about online in terms of uh, you know, the the value of the the hardship in a way, the weather's taking care of that anyway. Yeah,

the weather's doing everything in its power.

But, you know, I got to tell you something like, so I took about 13 years off, right? So, between 2011 and 20 24 is like when I went back and and people always ask me like, "Oh, what's different?" And like, h, there's like slight differences here and there, but like honestly the core the basics of it is still the same, you know? It's just like, yeah, it's it's a lot bigger, but I think it's like kind of what you're talking about like like the same kind of magic is still there. It's like maybe the makeup of people is a little bit different, you know, maybe yes, there's more like influencers and this and that, you know, but

yeah, I also I'm just very fascinated by like what you were talking about like you just struck a chord talking about the whole

generational like differences cuz definitely the people who the founders and the people who started this, the people who been like been work doing this for like 30 40 years, it's like oh they're like in their 60s and 70s now like and I think some people like actively want to be like you know hand over the reins to other people but You know, it's like, yeah, it's just this kind of this question. It's like, well, who are you handing over the reigns to? And then, you look at social media and like what people are talking about and just like, oh, it's just a big party, you know? I mean, it's kind of one of the reasons why I'm doing this whole show cuz I'm like

like if this was all just a big party, like would would anyone would this still be around? Like, would anybody like spend like this as like their their life's work to do party?

I think that's you know that is a big very valid. Very interesting question. Um, and as recently as in the past couple of weeks, I was talking to somebody who I just sort of assumed was always going to be there. And they were saying, "Actually, last year I maybe feel like I've done this enough. It's like it's very difficult for me as a person who went there for 24 hours once on the on the feeling that as you were saying yourself there's a there's a something about being there that is you just need to you know it's like the pope getting off an airplane and kissing the tarmac you know it's you know I knew that if I just went there for a day it would just be there. It would be it would be like, you know, it's like I I went to college in Edinburgh and the Edinburgh Festival in Scotland just has a certain it's a citywide densely every closet and cupboard is turned into a theater for you know literally you know theater shows that can only accommodate a twoerson audience type stuff and when you're in Edinburgh there's just a magic to that and I think there's just a magic to being on the player while Burning Man is taking place. Um

and my sister went uh in 1999 from Scotland and

came back uh 2024 and

I you know I had to say to her it's going to be exactly what you remember and completely different. And so she had that break thing and she's like I don't like the noise at night. I It's too much. I'd rather do things during the day now.

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. That was That was the year Michael Garington built that um big temple type thing. I forget the name of it, but it was a templesque thing covered in his artwork. She absolutely fell in love with that. And part of his art is to give away pieces from it. It was burn but she took some of it home and is now in her house in Scotland. So, you know, I unfortunately that was the year that rained at the end and I think all the talk of next year evaporated as the weather got worse and worse. Um, but yeah, uh,

but also I I I could totally relate to that experience too cuz like when I came back after 13 years like well I was also I'm older you know and so I I put more of a premium on this though when I came back when I was younger it's like oh we we' stay up all night night and we'd be drinking and partying. And now when they come back as a little older, I'm like,

I'm going to get some sleep and have a good night's sleep and then wake up in the in the morning and and have a wonderful day and and it just completely transformed my experience.

Yeah. I mean, I still like I'm still the kind of person when I glance at my watch and I'm like, it's 1:30 in the morning. I'm like, okay, you can give yourself maybe another half hour. Then you look up and it's I I don't I I think last year I did not pull a single allnighter. I think at best I've got maybe one in me a year

and even that probably less so where I kind of started off and maybe where I need to wrap this up and I'm more than happy to do more of this over the later to get going soon.

Um yeah, just because I

All right.

Um I'm actually hoping to see some people from my camp who I've not seen in a long time.

Okay. Quite looking forward to seeing some people who are gonna what I was just going to say is that like

in a weird sort of way I'm making the same video every year.

Mhm.

Intentionally almost like there's a checklist there of things that I do but the more I do them it feels more like I'm if I want to get precious about it it's like I'm basic I wouldn't go as far as to say it's like a meditation, but it is it is a pilgrimage and a ritual. And I feel like I'm cutting the same shape through water as maybe I'm like a salmon. I'm going back there to respawn. But it's like one of those things where like how do you know how do birds know how to migrate from point A to point B? Um and and with the realization that you know I you know I I don't know how many more of these there are left for me

um to do it in the same way um at the moment I am trying to put less um energy into the long form video in part because I understand you know the the people are now consuming a lot of more of this short form. I like to have it there, but I'm trying to tell myself that, you know, there's stuff that goes into it that is really just there for my amusement. And I'm like, could you maybe just do a little bit less of that? Like the last video from um 20

So, the last one that's online is from 2024.

Okay.

Because 2025 was last year and I've just started editing it. I absolutely ran out of time and I absolutely gave myself another week and I just and yet at the same time I'm putting stupid little captions and footnotes in for my own amusement as I'm trying to get to the final final edit. So yeah, it's I'm like anybody of my you know there is the part of me that's like how do you you know right size not down but right size your own commitment to this thing and also want to see other people come in and pick up the baton.

Yeah.

And I think a a clear I I I think a clear example of that is, you know, and I think this is kind of, you know, I haven't read all of the Burning Man organization, you know, um Jack Rabbits closely, but I think generationally When people think about Burning Man, a big part of what they think about is joining a camp. And that creates a myriad of problems for from theme camp organizers who are now on some level navigating the fact that they built a a camp infrastructure for a 40 person camp. Then suddenly they're down to a 25 person camp and can they downsize the infrastructure or are they left bringing in 15 people they don't know and that generates additional expectations.

Um and we all I you know we the overly online the overly engaged the people who spend more time than the average person thinking about Burning Man probably have opinions about um whether you call them plugandplay camps or convenience camps or that kind of thing. I think this is a slightly different thing. I think this is an even people who and I I you know I think there's nothing like I think there's nothing wrong with describing Burning Man as a bucket list experience. I've missed out on a lot of bucket list experiences. going to Burning Man every year. So if somebody has the if someone's life journey is to experience a lot of different things and Burning Man is one of one of them. Yes, that's part of the mix. That's part of the the melting pot. That's part of the millu and that's fine. Um I think you know people you know people online going form your own camp, camp on your own, all of those things. It's like there there's merit and truth and all of that to that as well, but I don't know that that addresses the situation either, you know. So,

there are all of these weird cultural things

all happening at the same time.

Yeah.

Um, a thing that I feel quite strongly about um that's relatively recent is um the DMV sent out a, you know, some kind of two-year consultancy period on the future of mutant vehicles at Burning Man. Uh, you can find this online. I think it might even be on the Burning Man blog. And some of the things they're looking at are,

you know, trying to continue a world of minimal rules, but also recognizing Whether it's like to use one example, they're basically saying please do not send us AI generated images as explanations of what your mutant vehicle will look like because we understand because you're not addressing safety issues or practicality or even the you know but another you know they're it's like noise and and

well I think what they're talking about is like they want to reduce the bureaucracy or something.

The thing is they want to reduce the bureaucracy and at the same time

at the same time it's like it when you when things get so big and large it's like you it's kind of like what happened in 1996 you like before that it was just kind of like a bunch of people going out to the the desert and then it's like it got so big that like Bureau of Land Management and and and liability and in government relations this and that. It's like you you have to kind of start bureaucratizing but then once you reach like 80,000 people I mean

well so so this is the thing um I get the sense and this is purely speculative

that the kind of people I sorry I apolog shall we say the expectation when joining those camps is it comes with a mutant vehicle

and Then one of the reasons I think you have so many of these were doing a tie up between this car and this car and this car and this car is there were some f****** expensive looking pieces of kit out there last year that could barely pull a crowd.

It's like we now have more billionaire rave barges than there are people to stand in front of them.

And to some extent I

rave barges I like that

in my pragmatic me feels like that's part of the landscape now and I don't know to what degree you can back away from that. I did think a couple of years ago that oh this whole sunset session thing where at sunset you can see Mayan warrior or robot heart or whomever in the inner plier was kind of cool. pool because I'm not like yourself. I'm not pooling all nighters. I don't want to be at the trash fence at 6:00 in the morning. But I do enjoy I do understand that it's a unique to Burning Man experience to see something that cost a s*** ton of money that has a sound system that's tuned the way someone would tune a Formula 1 race car at close quarters in a way that's convenient for me

and Last year when I was out there, my opinion on that changed quite a lot and I think that my feedback to the DMV and and I don't even think this is a DMV issue per se is that I was cycling around with somebody um last year and we found a piece of inner pl and you know you're cycling along and you see a little bit of moo on the you know

Mhm.

on the plier and you think to yourself nobody's looking I'll just keep going. No, you don't. You think, "Come on, Mark. You're not too You're not You're not so big that you can't get down. You know, you pick a you see a f****** If you're cycling along the ply and you see a zip tie, I think most burners of a certain age would

stop the bike and pick zip tie. That's what you do cuz collectively you can't if you're not doing that, it just accumulates." And I say that as a man who wore nobody told me in 1999 through 2003 that feather bors were moopy. As far as I can remember.

I have

The memo came later. Yeah. Yeah.

I have contributed to the trash at the trash fence unwittingly. I'm sure um we hit an area of the open pl of the open inner plier that was covered in cigarette butts and other ephemera like earrings and stuff like that. And it took a minute to realize, oh, this will be where last night's sunset session took.

Ah, and I was out on Uh a couple of nights later, um I went out to enjoy the sunset and I went out I cycled out with some people who parked themselves in front of the Mayan warrior and I was just a little bit like this is fun for 10 minutes but like you know I'm not spending an entire sunset and hour of golden hour facing this thing this one thing. Opportunity cost too great. Yeah.

And when I came back and it was over and I went back to get my bike and see if those people were still there, the obvious thing was happening, which was that the crowd was completely scattering because you've come out from camp in your Tulum hat to see a sunset session. And the minute it's over, you're getting back on your ebike to whiz back to wherever you came from to get ready to go out for the rest of the night.

That's not everybody, but it was evidently it's become a codified thing. Oh, we're going out for the sunset session, then we're coming back here to get ready, then we're going back out again. And honestly, some guy on the mic, whether it's Mayan Warrior or Robot Heart or Long Fang Art Car or whomever else, and I'm just naming them because they're names that people know. One guy on the mic going, "Hey guys, guys, please let's keep this thing a viable thing. Please pick up MP

before you leave."

Is borderline f****** worthless.

And I feel quite strongly about that. I feel like if you have the resources to fly a piano on a lift in the air for some and you have social media chat channels and after the event you're on your social media channels and this is not specifically robot heart I'm thinking of somebody else here going another wonderful year with our community and you all make it so special and these golden moments we've shared together and if you scroll back to before the event there's nothing on their social media feed saying if you've never been to Burning Man before this is what you should know and My opinion is that is like a tacit admission that should happen

and to require that to happen would be like a tacit admission that we now live in this uneasy alliance era where if we're all f****** honest and we think about this is for some people the attraction and this is what brings them here and whether you announce your DJ lineups or not is borderline irrelevant at this point. Yes, it's cool for Robot Heart to put out an announcement that's kind of like just

just show up and

Yeah. So, like what you're saying,

but the reality is everybody's coming with the expectation that when you head out to there, chances are it is going to be somebody who could headline a main stage at Coachella. It is Rufus Delol. It is John Summit, who I'd never heard of before, but apparently he's the hot s***. So, you know, the DJ lineups to me at this point are like secondary to the expectation that that is a big part of the experience for some people and that I don't think is something you can course correct for. The only thing you can really do is make it best practice for them to be equally vocal about leave no trace as the Burning Man organization is. And I think there's a

reinforce the principles like all

right there's a there's a sort of there's a there's a membrane there.

Mhm. That's sort of a no, we're not here to tell people what to do. Minimum rules. People want minimum rules. I would love to see whether it's Carl Cox or whomever else.

Mhm.

Be an advocate for that kind of communication.

It doesn't take much best practice. So, it just becomes

Yeah.

It, you know, that's what I would like to see moving forward pragmatically is bitching about influencers on Facebook is is performative. It's just it's in-group outgroup behavior. You're trying to define yourself by what you're not, which is other people. I think

the one of the most pragmatic things people can do if they want to see the event survive is to be more specific with these organizations that you like and give them, you know, you know, get on social media and be like, "Hey guys, we, you know, we enjoy what you do as part of my overall experience, but I'm not seeing you acculturate people at all. And it's not on me to acculturate the people who come

to see you.

And I do it anyway because that's what I do. I'm all about acculturation.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think as you know, just as you were saying earlier, like the media is so diverse now and people have all these different points of entry and people are coming from Tik Tok. And if you haven't spent a lot of time on Tik Tok yourself, bitching about Tik Tok is like it's like an old man who can't program a DV a VCR complaining about the television. It's like I get that. I I understand how you feel, but I also understand you're really talking. You don't understand. I would just like to see an across the board awareness that people are going, you know, it's equally possible for someone to come both a little underprepared for the experience and a bit scared that they're going to get grilled about the the principles. God

and we're not making it easy for these people. And I I I while some people would say, well, that's the point is to not make it easy for these people. I'm a little bit like, yeah, but let's not bath water baby. Let's not all of that.

I think people need to be like aware of the principles, but they don't you're not going to be there not going to be a quiz, you know, on the spot. What's number principles is everybody Well, the interesting thing is that all happened during my years off. So on some level I'm pre the principles existing. So

well the thing is it was more of a codification of what whatever what was really happening anyway.

They're not they've become a stick to beat other people with on social media. If your favorite principle is the one you keep in your back pocket to tell people on Reddit to f*** off, then you know

and they all they interact with each other in interesting ways and so on.

Well, I always tell people like I look at the principles as more of like a recipe that converts random strangers into like very close friends if not family. It's not the the the 10 principles written in stone that Larry Harvey brought down the hill, you know, like in 1986, you know, it's it's more of like, you know, this is a formula to kind of get you to this place, which Well, we'll wrap up. Just one last thing. Um, so what you're talking about like like oh people have like a like a bucket list or they see social media to get to any of your questions. No, we did not.

Oh, this is a conversational thing. No worries. But um anyway, so like so yeah, so for a lot of people it's a bucket list item or they they see like the spectacle or they see like the Instagram or like the models or the influencers and this and that and then they come to Burning Man and then they have their own experience, right? So So my question for you basically the last question is like the impact or influence of Bernie man on you it's like and like and and like and what is it about Bernie man that that keeps you coming back? Like why why keep doing this, you know?

I mean, a I get to be my favorite p version of myself.

Mhm.

Um and I say that as a man who may bring a backup megaphone in case the first megaphone breaks because the idea of being there without a megaphone, it just I can't. And I that's a man who has the megaphone dialed down so it's really not that much louder than my speaking voice.

It's also another one of those like lost arts of Burning Man. Like do you

Well, it is a little bit. Most of the people who have megapones shouldn't, etc., etc. And there's never one of my favorite things to do is in camp sort of spot somebody who's clearly a little bit judgy or a nice and go, "Have you ever megaponed? You should. You have it." I quite like If you if if you go to my last video, um the thumbnail on YouTube is me and this woman Amelia back to back and she's born to be a megaponer and giving her a megaphone and a voice or a way of transmitting her voice in a very asymmetric way, which is what I like, was one of my great joys of that year. Um because some of that is as you get older, talking to somebody and finding out what they've never done and going, "We should absolutely f****** do that right now. My goal is to get you to your goal." Um, but so I get to be my favorite person version of myself. I have trapped myself in this feedback loop where I get to make cultural commentary about my favorite place. and and be in a sort of comedic cultural conversation with the whole concept of Burning Man. And that's relative to some other people's it's the same every time. I'm like, it might be the same every time, but it's like, you know, I've I've made I've made golden handcuffs for myself in that respect in that,

you know, as ex, you know, I'm still running into people who are like you know, somebody going, "Oh, I was like a bartender in New York and before I came here, I knew I wanted to go to Burning Man because I'd watched all these videos and it just, you know, to be the conduit for that is way too much fun." And to be able to use, you know, to stamp my own sense of humor on top of that is a lot of fun. Um, and yeah, like I will say I haven't done as many regionals as perhaps I might. Uh, time.

It's the Burning Man thing is a huge time suck for me and my wife puts up with that. So, it's very hard for me to go, "Oh, I'm going to fly to Florida for this thing where thing."

I I am though going to Unscrews in a couple of weeks.

I'll see you there. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Right. And

Unscrews for people who don't know is the Santa Cruz regional uh regional. It's on a or it has historically been on a county fairground which not coming from America is it's like it's one weird thing inside it's like nesting Russian dolls of weird because I didn't grow up with a thing where you might have a janky cement amphitheater for you know performances by a journey cover band um and for some reason a racetrack and for some reason livestock pens. It's a weird com of things. And on paper would seem like quite a an unpromising location to have an offshoot of something that exists in

the the wide open expanse of the desert.

And in fact, what happens is if you take people from that and put it anywhere, it's instant Burning Man. It's dehydrated. It's, you know, it's like instant coffee. It might not be Oh, these beans have been pooped through a dung beetle and then we've done it's not like sing, you know, it's not like a you paid $40 for a single thing that you know a barista hand massaged into existence, but it's in its own it has its own flavor and its own thing. But so it is

people plus location equals Burning Man. And I feel like I can't be the only one who's like almost all my dreams are like It was Burning Man, but we were in a tower block. It was Burning Man, but we were on a crate. It was, you know, there's infinite versions of that. Um, so I'm looking forward to going to Unscrews. I can't remember why I gone to this, but

How many times have you been to Unscrews?

Um, Unscrews.

Yeah,

a lot. Um, we'll put it like this.

My first time, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

It's really I love it. It's a really fun vibe. It has, you know, it's own events. Um, you're in for people crossing a wooden plank to try and get a rubber dildo as some kind of This is the inappropriate pirates who have the most unpronouncable name, but that while a guy, not me, a guy who's better at I must say that inappropriate megaphone guy top shelf. Like if you want to see it done right, he's as good as you're ever going to hear.

This is the the sky pig pirates or something.

Um the inappropriate pirates. Okay.

Um there's the the cond the whatever it is. Kentucky derby which is just people

Oh, okay. Yeah, I saw that. So it has its own things.

Um it's weird because there are indoor buildings which are you know kitted out as you know there's a sort of vampire lounge. It's great. I f****** love it.

Um, we were part of the original um, family camp and then eventually I I've been going enough that when your kids are like, "Guess what, kids? Uh, I don't think I'm taking you to unscrews this year." And their response is,

and I must the only thing about unscrews that, you know, for me is a little cheeky is when I've camped next to people and they're like their kids are running around. And they're all in adorable little onesies with their little rabbit ear onesies or whatever. And people are like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. This is like the next generation of burners." It's hard not to lean in and go maybe.

Let me get my megaphone.

No, no, no. More like No, no, no. It's more like maybe. And maybe at some point they'll turn around and go, "No, Dad. I do not want to spend another long weekend with all your weird introverted friends cosplaying as extroverts and their stupid funny names and their stupid furry hats and all of that and you're like fair enough.

Yeah,

fair enough.

Well, we've been going on. We've about hit our time limit. One last thing. Um uh any links or plugs? Like what should I put in the show notes? You have uh

I you know a good place to start is just anywhere I'm on social media. My Instagram is Mr. the word spelled out Mr._Mark_day and that has a mishmash of both me at Burning Man. I've recently started um reposting Burning Man 2001 in minute long episodes on Facebook and on Instagram and that's fun for me. So you and and to to some extent I'm doing that as a sort of Here, look. Here's Burning Man 2001. Here's Burning Man last year. Here's the AI version of Burning Man in my head. Have all of them or none or just the two. Um, so I'm doing that. Um, the long form videos 24 hours at Burning Man are on YouTube. Um, all of them are awesome. I haven't watched. All of them are somewhat the same. All of them have tropes. Um, the one thing I didn't get to, but is kind of fun is that like I have basically created um linguistic memes, by which I mean

I say the same things in my videos every year like, "Have you seen the sky lately? The sky looks magnificent." And then when I'm at Burning Man, people will be like, "You're probably sick of people saying this." And I'm like, "Absolutely not. You say the catchphrase, I will say it back to you. That's absolutely fun. Um, and the the only annoying thing is I would say the the character of me at Burning Man from my perspective is just gets better. The video like some if I look back at some of them from a few years ago, it feels a little bit wooden and affected. And perhaps I'm just saying these things because I'm just enjoying the trope, but whatever. Whereas I think I I keep getting better at being me at Burning Man from the perspective of whoever's watching me at home. What hubris. Who does this? Who who does this? Um

so la two years I started I was you know I'm always looking for a reason to be make the videos somewhat different. I know we're I basically I have to get this out. Yeah,

the year I the year I documented the temple, which was 2016, um I think it's okay to say was a challenging experience for many of the people involved and was the last year that Burning Man did not have a year-to-year core temple crew who carried the instit utional knowledge in a formalized codified way so that different artists could come in and invite people into the space knowing that that infrastructure was there. And prior to that there was a little bit of an either it was David Best or it was other people reinventing the wheel over and over again. And

without getting into the that is one of the challenges that all camps experience or not all but like many camps experience is how do you hold hold that institutional knowledge together if you have maybe overbuilt your camp to a a size that does not reflect your core group of friends or whatever. But anyway, the point is if you go watch that video, it has what I like to think of as, and I got this from a very pivotal experience in my youth. Oh god, this is going to take forever. A lot of Americans don't know who the comedian Billy Connelly is. He's mostly He's like our George Carlin. He's not been in a lot of movies. He's not like you could go, "Oh, he was in five Harry Potter movies, so you've kind of seen him." He mostly is known as a stand-up comedian. When I was a kid, I heard an album of his. You can find this on YouTube. It's

the opening track on it. There's only one existing recording of it. Um It's him telling the story of the crucifixion of Jesus as if the the the the the premise is there's a misprint in the Bible. It didn't take place in Galagly. It took place in the Galagate which is like a very rough workingass area of Glasgow. And it blew my mind because he was basically you know as a young kid it's both he's an incredible storyteller and the minute To me at least, I I can get goosebumps just talking about it.

Mhm.

If you listen to the recording of it, what I hear, and I can't promise other people will get this, is the electricity in the room when people realize he's about to tell this story. And to me, it's like the sacred and the profane. So, that video has me interviewing um my 24 hours at Burning Man that year has me interviewing Robbie Do. who I don't know she still goes to the event but she was one of the people behind like the portaotty project where they as burners were going around and checking in on the portaotties and making these slightly obtuse stickers that would explain portaotty etiquette in ways that seem quaint now. So there was a bit of the sacred and the profane in that and then this is so long and then at the end of this experience of building the temple. I turned around to this woman, April um Jones, and said, "April, what happened?" And she did a wonderful job of summing it up. And it's at the end of the video. And at that point, I realized I had to up my game and felt feel like these rambling videos should end on something. Is there some point to it? And I can't pretend there wasn't a part of me that was like, "All you're doing is that Bill Hicks thing where Bill Hicks in one of his standup special goes what you know what's the what's the point of all of this and I'm not in any shape or form comparing myself to that it's just it's like a trope it's like a trope I remember from an incredible standup special. So over time what that became was v various iterations of and the people I'm going into San Francisco to see who I don't see often enough Um they they were doing a version of the dating game in our camp. You know, people out for a date on Playa and then one person on the other side of a screen. Um which was always an interesting experience because some of the people who want to participate maybe are not the right people. You have to kind of curate it. Um in a way that like it's awkward but in a good way and all of that. And I was pre co-presenting it with them because I love standing in front of people and talking. And this is the thread. Um and I had another appointment doing something else. So one day I came back in camp and they were doing it without me which was awesome. I knew they were doing it but like it was weird to watch them do it and want to be up there and at the same time so proud of them for doing it.

Yeah.

And afterwards they were like as you would they were like see Mark Day we didn't need you and I was able to do in the most perfect way possible for me you're right it was inside you all along

and that's the sort of under that underpins lot of those videos as variations on really just variations on that that you know

if you're lucky you get to come to Burning Man to find a way to do something that on some level was inside you all along and that's not necessarily true for some not everybody's going to be like oh I all I the only thing between me and doing that was me being scared that I couldn't it's not always that but like that that's one of the things I love about the event is to be able to be that conduit for it was inside of you all along. Now, I also like my own sense of humor. So, the past couple of years, um, I've been playing around with his idea of proper Burning Man. And I just posted a video which you could see on Instagram where I'm starting to unpack literally and metaphorically what happened last year. And it's me talking about people with a truck and haven't unpacked the truck yet and somebody in that group desperately wants something that's stuck in the way in the back of the truck and they know it's not a priority for anybody else, but they would be a lot happier if we could just somehow make it possible for them to get that thing out that they really need. That's based on a real experience. We were driving to Burning Man in like 200 whatever

and we had something in a truck and there were some people who were driving up with us who wanted could we just get our tent just we just and we were just like we just can't we just right now it's just that's not possible

not a good time

but we were jokingly me and my buddy Ally were like we've captured their flag pole we captured the flag we have something they really want

and I made that there's a that it's a minute long this video it's that then there's like it's me talking about that in relation to someone else's truck

I like that It's like real

20 seconds of

Yeah.

20 seconds of me doing a ridiculous AI

heavy metal version of what proper Burning Man is. And the end of the or or or of just the idea of proper Burning Man. And then the end is me from about four years earlier saying the thing that I've now turned into a ridiculous video that just that what I say is the feel of the it started as the feel of the heat on your face standing next to something on fire is proper burning man. That a thing that is when you feel that particularly today in this era of everything's LEDs and for we you know

we're a lot more safety conscious around art burns and

Mhm.

art burns are a degree of complexity for some camps where it's just easier to take the thing home and all of that. But the last video and where I'm playing around with this is just the idea of proper burning m And but I'm not the arbiter of what that is. I'm just a guy cycling around going, "See that? That's proper Burning Man." But if you make it to the end of the video, which a lot of people don't,

it's me basically going,

"You'll know Proper Burning Man when you see it." And it's not the preserve of middle-aged white guys to tell you what that is. And I know I'm saying that as a middle-aged white guy. I try in an incredibly clum way at the end of my last video to talk more directly about consent and white privilege, which I have a personal experience of.

I I'm in a multi-racial family. So, my ability, you know, if you're standing in Target and you're trying to pick a gift for a kid for a birthday party and there's a bunch of and your your toy selection is restricted to or your movie selection is restricted to your kid only ever sees themselves as side characters or whatever. If anybody's listening to this and feels they want to push back on white privilege, I am talking from personal experience. If you don't like the idea of it, all good. Um, I have a lot of personal opinions that some people would say are very non-woke, but like it took me years to be comfortable talking about those things on camera and I still and and the consent thing is still something that I felt like I'm not the best person to talk about it and it took me a long right time to get to that doesn't matter you have a

it's important

somebody one of the greatest gifts I got at Burning Man was and sorry I'm now extrapolating as to what

I think we kind of need to wrap it up but yeah Yeah. Yeah,

it is. But like what I was going to say is like

I had some interesting opinions about consent education at Burning Man.

One of them is that it's too sex positive,

right?

Yeah. There's more to consent than just sex.

Well, and I think Well, I think the challenge is it's often delivered by people who are invested in sex positivity. And I'm not saying it's an intentional oversight. I think, you know, I'm just spit falling from just my small sample set of looking at this and going and this comes back to the tick tock thing. All of these things are the same thing in my head is meeting people where they are.

Yes.

So meeting, you know, sometimes neurodeiverse middle-aged men who have had 10 years of making the same talk like a pirate joke about a severe spanking in camp and are basically unaware that A lot of the women in camp are sick of this f****** joke by now, but we're just excusing it all as that's, let's just put on me, that's just Mark being Mark.

I think, you know, there's an aspect to understanding that not everybody needs or wants their first experience at Burning Man to be overly sexualized. So, I am one of the people who actually think, sorry, people who signed up for readers feeling like, "Oh, we used to get to spank people." I'm like, "It took me a long time to talk to consent educator, a consent educator about sexual trauma and how triggering that could be for other people."

So, understanding it took me a long time, it's not for me to judge that a Tik Tok influencer at some point may actually move towards. It's a complicated dance. It all Oh, being in the media space is a complicated dance,

of course.

Um, so my thing is I'm not the arbiter of proper Burning Man, but I'm making it a meme so that when people's tents get blown over and they run into me, go, "Oh, we had proper Burning Man last night." But I also would love to see space for diverse voices and it not, you know,

yes,

because it becomes so codified, you know. I would, you know, I I I think there are other voices who have been unrepresented. So if it makes people uncomfortable going, "Oh, Bernie man went woke." And perhaps at a time when society was pushing back in another direction, I think we as a community still have our own rebalancing of who gets to be a voice in the space.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So there you go. So here we are. Two middle-aged white guys. I'm making assumptions. for your ethnic makeup.

Well, I think we could go on or not. I mean, that would

be here forever. I should get out of the house.

Thank you for

Yeah. Well, thank you for the interview editing this.

Oh, the secret to my show is I don't do any editing at all.

Right. Well, for overtime, split it into two or

ah, there is no time.

There is no time.

John Law was about two hours.

Right. Okay. I hope that all made sense. Um,

well, thank you very much.

Cheers. My favorite thing talking about me at Burning Man. I don't get enough of this.

Well, thanks, Mark.

Cheers. Dog says bye. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, rate, and review it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen. The more reviews the show has, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Also, please tell a friend and share this show with anyone that you think might like it. Word of mouth reaches quite far, especially in the Burning Man community. If you would like to contact us, please send an email to Shadow of the Manodcast atgmail.com. You can also follow Shadow of the Man on social media at Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and YouTube. The links for all of these are available at shadowoftheman.com. Feel free to use any of these social media accounts to provide any feedback. might have. Your thoughts on the show are greatly appreciated. Thank you and see you soon for a new episode of The Shadow of the Man. Thank you for listening to this latest show. We have to make another one. So, got to go. Don't worry. For next month, we already have one in the can very soon you'll be listening to a new shadow of the man.