EP 81 Megan Miller

Episode 81 with Megan Miller is out now! Meet Megan Miller who explores the transformative power of the Burning Man festival and its enduring impact on her personal and professional trajectory. The conversation details Megan’s transition from a government field representative to a central leader within the Burning Man organization, highlighting her accidental introduction to the event and her subsequent 12-year career as its communications director. Key themes include the evolution of the festival into a non-profit entity, its cultural and economic influence on the city of Reno, and the unique experience of participating in the community while sober. She describes the festival's ability to foster creative reinvention, illustrated by her current work on light festivals and her ongoing involvement in large-scale interactive art.

IG: @millermegank

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Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. You know that Andy. Today our guest is Megan Miller. Welcome, Megan.

Thank you so much, Andy. Good to be here.

Yeah. Uh well, good morning for me and I think it's probably good morning for you, right?

We're still in the A.M.

Yeah. So, this is actually going to be season finale for season two. I think it comes out like uh mid August as people are going to be like listening to this. But uh don't worry like like last year my season finale was caveat magister and uh he's he's still alive.

Those are big shoes to fill.

Yeah. So, where did it all begin for like how did you even first even hear about Burning Man?

I it's a little fuzzy but because I moved to the Bay Area in 2004 or five and it was definitely in my

you know in the general consciousness at that time and so I don't remember the first time I heard about it but I do very clearly remember the first conversation I had with someone who had just been and that was my college roommate and I'd gone to school in Montreal. I grew up in Alaska and I went to McGill in Montreal and my roommates were were running in very creative circles. They're they're actually the folks who started Moment Factory. So, it's all like I don't know if you know them. They do

factory.

They do like big digital art light projection immersive art experiences. They are global now based out of Montreal. Um really amazing folks, good good folks to know about. And uh anyway, she my roommate from college was the first person who who had we sat in the mission in her car and she had just come back from Bernie man and I was living in San Francisco and I had never seen a photo. I had never like I had no preconceived image in my mind and she just described this place that she had been and

and described and described and described and wouldn't stop.

She had a lot to say about it

and you were like what is all this dust that's on everything like

Yeah. I mean the way she described it as a city in the desert and the dust and the lights and the music and art and the people. And I very quickly formed a vision in my mind of what it was and what it looked like and what it felt like. And uh and I I can still remember exactly like what came into my mind and then how different it was from what it what it actually was. But so that was 2005 and that planted a seed for sure, but I didn't go right away.

So what was the picture that was in your mind that you you thought

I always chuckle back because what I remember imagining were a lot of multi-story buildings but sort of you know ramshackle buildings like not not sort of fully um I don't know just sort of like when she said city I imagined an upris yeah like at least like three four stories tall um and yeah so that's I always sort of chuckle that that that's what came to mind.

I'm just imagining some like shanty town that's like multi-story.

Yeah. A little Bladeunneresque, like a little, you know, kind of

fancy.

Very urban, like a very urban landscape.

Yeah, cuz not a lot of Black Rock City actually goes vertical. I mean, the

for good reason. The things that do really stand out and they they you know, they make a big impression. cuz I was just interviewing um Jen Reed, you an artist uh last week and and she was telling telling me I'm trying to remember what the name of the camp was it was it called vertical camp or something. Vertical camp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like what's vertical camp? And she's like, "Oh yeah, they have scaffolding and so their camp kind of goes up and so like you there's like different levels and so people like have you have like your tent like on different levels and it goes like up." And I was like, "Ooh, wow. That sounds like fun.

Yeah, I've never I don't think I've ever seen vertical camp. The closest thing that came to sort of matching the image I had was Root Society in Circa like 2010, 112 maybe. That was a big dance camp

and they definitely had like multiple levels of scaffolding that you could climb up and and I remember thinking like now this is what I imagined.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But um what is it? Um, you know, Adriana Roberts when she did Piss Clear those years ago

and I remember she's always posting stuff where she goes to like what's it called? It's like Neotropolis or something. Have you heard of that one?

Yes. Yes, I have. And it sounded really interesting.

So for the listeners, it's it's a like Death Valley or somewhere around there like desert the festival about um kind of sci-fi futurees kind of bladeunneresque kind of future sort of thing. And so I don't know. Maybe that's what you were envisioning.

Cyberpunk and science fiction festival. It's in the Mojave, desert.

Mojave. Ah. All right.

So, you first heard about in 2005. Your friend wouldn't shut up about it. You're getting she getting the dust everywhere. So, um, so was 2006 your first year going?

No, I didn't go until 2009. So, I was living in the Bay Area. I was one of those people that I would vaguely be aware that it was the week because there would be more parking and were sort of calm. One year I I remember very distinctly going to Harbon Hot Springs. I think it was the first time I'd been to Harbin

and it was empty. I didn't know it was empty compared to what it usually is. And they were showing Burning Man documentaries all week in the little theater that they used to have before it burned down. It was just like a room full of giant pillows. And

I was by myself in that theater. And I I've got to look up I should have done that before today which documentary I watched because that was the first time I remember there was this scene where the somebody opens their truck door and the dust just falls out of the truck like they had left their windows open and the and the truck was like full of dust and um and I and I was like yeah I got to I got to go there. Um so I don't know that may have been 2008 but by 2009 I had a an aunt who was going and um you know a crush on a guy so they were both going which made it much more compelling and felt urgent suddenly. and I make my way to this gathering. Uh, I had friends who'd been going since the '9s. And um, and my actual sort of going to Bernie man's story is a little crazy because I thought I couldn't go. I was working at the time for Senator Barbara Boxer.

Oh, okay.

I was a field representative for Northern California. So, I represented her for from eight counties from San Francisco to the Oregon border and was just kind of like her eyes and ears in the community, was constantly out in different communities and um seeing what people were doing with public land and public funds. And so I thought there's no way I can ever go to Burning Man because it was during a congressional recess. So it was a time that the senator was usually in state in California and we were often doing events with her and it just felt like well that's an impossibility. And then one of my colleagues in the office was like actually your predecessor went to Burning Man on behalf of the senator. Like you should reach out to Burning Man and see if you can go. Um, and so

on behalf of the senator, I like that.

Yes. In sort of an official capacity because obviously Bernie man has a government relations program. The organization needs to develop good government relations at all levels government and the senator needs to know what's happening on public lands. It's one of the largest events and public lands in the country. And so this was literally the event had started. The event had already started. It was Monday of event week and I emailed

Ray Allen who was the general counsel at the time for many years. I didn't know that's who I was emailing, but it was probably like government at Bernie man or something.

And I just was like, "Hey, I hear that, you know, you guys like having representatives from elected officials come to the event. Let me know if that's possible." And I to this day can so clearly remember sitting at my desk and opening my email I think on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mhm.

Might have it might have been Wednesday of event week and the subject line was like two Black Rock City something Black Rock City will call tickets or whatever and the email was like there's two tickets waiting for you at Black Rock City will call and I was like I'm going to Burning Man like now.

Like get your ass out here. It's Wednesday already. Like

totally not the way I now, you know, recommend people go to Burning Man for the first time. But I immediately w went right over to Craigslist and posted that I had a ticket and I needed a ride and was there someone that could give me a ride to Burning Man and I had many offers within an hour. So,

wow.

Well, I mean, this is 2009, like be before it it hadn't sold out yet, right?

No, that was 2012. It had not sold out yet. And you know, you could buy a ticket at the gate, but for whatever reason I was compelled because I had a free ticket.

That's kind of like I don't know a very like kind of romantic notion where you're just kind of like it was like the very last second, you know. It also kind of borderlines the classic kind of nightmare scenario. I mean most people I think it's it's like it's like you you know it's like I'm in a class and there's an exam and like is the final exam you realize I I haven't been to any classes and like you know class like stress dream but like I don't I don't I've had this dream. I've heard other people where it was like you're at Burning Man and you have nothing and you're just like what why am I here I didn't even pack anything like I don't even have a tent you know so that comes dangerously dangerously close to the nightmare of just

Mhm. The way it unfolded is sort of both like it felt magical and everything worked out and I was a total s*** show and completely unprepared. So both were were true. I I printed out the survival guide in my office. office at the senator's office and brought this like book of paper to read on in the car on the way to the event. I I didn't read it. I mean, I probably skimmed a few things, but uh yeah, found a ride and I'll never forget showing up at her house. So, now this was Thursday night. She had gone to get us some supplies. I remember her calling me and being like, "I'm getting you Q-tips and baby wipes and water and stuff. Like, you're going to want all this stuff." And I was like, "All right, whatever." I went to my friend house to borrow her tent. And she also started throwing weird clothes at me and like an aviator cap. And I was like, I don't need the stuff. Like, I'm going camping. I grew up in Alaska. I know about camping. I have my camping backpack and my one little cooler. And she was like, just bring it. You might find yourself wanting to put on these sequin pants or whatever. And so I did. I stuffed them in my in my backpack and and went over to that woman's house. I don't remember her name. I remember her. house in Glen Park. And I'll never forget showing up with my one backpack and my tiny cooler. And she had her entire garage was like bins and bags and all the stuff and stacks of things and the music was blaring and she was in go mode and I thought she was crazy. Like why are you bringing all this s***? We're going for 3 days to go camping. And um and boy was I glad that she gave me whatever thing she gave me. But we drove all night. She listened to horrible techno music and I tried to sleep through it and we got

just getting you like prepared for what you're eventual experience.

She wasn't wrong. It was a it was an induction

and yeah, I drove all night. I I I slept through like Reno and Wodsworth and most of 447. So by the time I woke up, I think we were basically on Gate Road. And I have this very like I didn't, you know, I went to sleep in Sacramento and woke up in this place at sunrise and

Wow. magical.

Yeah, it was it was lifechanging. I mean, the whole thing ever since has been completely life-changing.

That's just kind of funny. You fall asleep in Sacramento and you wake up Gate Road or the sunrise was like, "Wow, wow, wow."

Yeah.

Not Not in Sacramento anymore, Toto.

No, for sure. Was on a different planet. I had never seen And even though I had by then watched that documentary at Harbin, I still didn't have a clear sense like I don't I still don't think I'd ever seen an aerial image of Black Rock City. They just weren't that common then. I didn't have a good sense of of what it looked and felt like. Um, so it was all amazing. And

so you just knew that like, oh, there's going to be like little cupcakes driving around with people's heads on top and like and strange things like that. It's like, okay,

a shark driving through the through the desert. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. And then Well, go ahead.

Oh, no, no, no. Um I was going to say, well, where did you guys camp? It was just like u Did you have like friends you were camping with or just open camping or?

So, she had a camp to go to and she was dropping me off and I knew the coordinates of my aunt's camp. She had no idea that I was coming, but I knew the name of her camp and and where it was. So, my idea was to have her drop me off at my aunt's camp. camp which was like 2:00 and she was camping at 8:00 and something and my camp was 2 and I don't know B or C something like that. It was a it was an esplanog camp mission country club.

Great great kids. Um

and we drove like up to the camp and then I freaked out. I was like I can't just show up midweek at Burning Man to some camp I don't know uninvited with my little backpacking tent. I don't know. I I suddenly realized like I have to do this by myself. I was like, just drop me off in walk-in camping. So, she dropped me off like at 2 and I don't know L, whatever the last street was, the edge of walking camping. And I set my little tent up, which was broken. And I didn't have the rainfly on the edge of of 2:00, right? Like over the fence or over the flags into walk-in camping. And the people next to me were watching me struggle with my I had a broken tent pole and it was getting hot and I was like, "What the what am I doing here?" And they offered me a hot breakfast, which was so kind of them. And I got on my bike. I I sort of set up something and like tried to eat, but I was really manic.

And the first thing I did was go to an AA meeting in uh Black Rock City because I had been sober.

Oh.

I don't know, maybe four years. Yeah, I think four years. 2005. And that's what I needed. do when I was overwhelmed and like didn't know what to do. So, I rode my little bike out, but first I like rode across the Playa and I had a very much like, "Wow!" moment of, "Holy s***, this place is epic." And people were giving me hugs and there was art and I was just overwhelmed and amazed. And

how did it feel with just like random strangers coming up to you being like, "Hey, welcome home." I mean, was it just like, "Why are you talking to me?" Like,

no, it was a lot of welcome home and I felt that immediately. I it wasn't like I found it wasn't it wasn't like Burning Man was different or new in terms of the values and the principles and the way people interacted.

It it felt literally like home. Like, oh, here's my people. Like, you've been here the whole time. I now I found you.

And yeah, the pe the kids I remember the first people who gave me a hug were these cute European boys and But, you know, I was fine with it.

So, being in recovery like um because I know I've been listening to also listen to uh my sister podcast Accuracy third and and so they've been actually they have a someone who's been doing recordings for them at uh is it Anonymous Village? Great. Yeah. And so it's it's actually just been like kind of opening my mind, you know, about like sobriety on on the playa and well my own personal story is that Like my brother and I like I used to live in San Francisco and so in 96 we first went in 97 we started this camp called the cult of distraction.

It's a great camp name.

It's our logo.

Nice.

We were like is that the Jesus fish? And we're like no not really.

Oh distraction.

Yeah. So we operated like we had we my brother made this really beautiful like wooden bar and like the we cut the logo out so it glows. from the front and the bottom and and it has like these like lava lamps and everything and so we had this beautiful like lounge and everything and so for for many years like we were operating just like a it was usually like an allnight kind of bar and it was just kind of a share bar we only had like one rule. It was just that you may not ask for anything. It's like you just come up and you sit down, you start talking and we'll just like be giving you drinks and like whatever you know and um after many years of this we kind of like discovered like oh my brother's an alcoholic We're like, hm, can't can't do this anymore, you know? And so we just recently after I think the last year we did it was like 2006 or something, but just recently cuz I took 13 years off and he took like 14 years off like 2012 was the last year we had gone together. Um, oh uh but yeah, so we went back last year and so then at we just went unscrews. And so we've been like reviving our camp. And so now we're reviving it as a as like an alcohol-free bar.

And so and we've been so we over the years I've been experimenting around and make these cocktails out of um

well you have the choice of like guava or passion fruit. That's like the base, right? And so we can fill a cup like we have a shaker full of ice. You put the guava, you put the passion or you put like a little bit of lime, a little bit of like ginger syrup and then soda water and then that's it. And it's like the best drink.

Yeah. Sounds amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. And if somebody want has a flask and they want to pour some like rum or whatever, you like you could do whatever you want, you know, for like your own thing,

you know. But yeah, that was just kind of the thing of just like, oh, how can we go back to Birdie Man? How could we do like what we did but, you know, not involve alcohol? And and like again, last year was the first year that we'd both gone back together. I'd gone back the year before that, you know, but um and and and I was just telling him I was just like It's like it's a whole brand new thing. It's like it's awesome. It's like you can go to Burning Man and you you go to bed and you and you get sleep and then you wake up and you feel great. And then by like when Wednesday comes around, it's like remember how we used to feel like we were like just zombies and hating everybody and hating the world and everything. It's like you actually feel great. And it was an entirely different experience. We're just like wow. Like I've never seen this side of Bernie before. But just like going for the first time to Bernie man like not really knowing many people I mean and like you said being four years in like in recovery you know I mean how was that for you you know that must have been trepidacious you're like ah I don't know where am I going

yeah I think I had I had sort of just discovered festivals that summer I had gone to lightning in a bottle for the first time and I had gone to wanderlust I think it was called it was at it was in Lake Tahoe and it was music and yoga. And

so I had kind of gotten some practice and I went with other sober friends and had practice being in those those environments. And I had the same sort of awakening like, oh, I was a party kid. I was a raver in my college days. I knew what it felt like to to do too much and go over the top. And I was like, wow, I can party for 4 days and stay up late and do all the things, but also not feel like s*** and remember everything. and not regret anything and like have a great time and really

feel the music in a different way like I really would

different experience. Yeah.

Yeah. Really different experience. So, um yeah, that was what I knew and it didn't the fact that there were was a sober camp on Playa was definitely kind of like okay I can go there too like there's an anchor there are other sober people as long as there is that space in any space I can I can show up and participate in find them. Did you know about them before you went or did you find

I must have I must have looked it up specifically because I knew I had the coordinates and I went direct like I went straight there right when I got there and I ran into people I knew from recovery in San Francisco. So I immediately was like okay here I am. It's fine. Bike had broken

in the first like 20 minutes first ride I brought a bike. I brought my mountain bike I had since I was 13. Like a thing that was kicking around in my garage and it Yeah, it was broken by the time I got to the meeting and there was somebody there who could fix it and you know this this is how like I was a hot mess who was unprepared but then everything kept working out and um uh yeah and I would say you know when I quit drinking in those environments there were I was lucky to find like a warm club soda in a can in a corner somewhere and now

yeah

instead like it's a thing there's mocktails everywhere and I honestly haven't really experienced that at on Playa. I don't find myself like going to bars on Playa very often, but

um I know that it's gotten a lot better and more inclusive and there's more options.

Yeah, there is a Facebook group I think it's like it's like it's an alcohol free burners or something

and I know like in years past like Yeah, they I think they like organized like a alcohol-free like bar crawl.

Yes, actually that I do know about that. Yeah, that's I've had friends who've done that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a whole world of Burning Man that's that doesn't involve drinking and substances. It's it's um it's a different one, but it's equally as fun.

It's funny cuz like I think that the the popular view from people either it just it's like it's a satanic ritual or it's just like this this drug and alcohol fueled thing or it's it's just like electronic dance music, you know? I mean, I think there's a lot of stereotypes when people go there and it's like, oh, you know, like there's bluegrass music or oh, you know, like you can get like mocktails or like,

oh, there's a village with children with hundreds of children like community family based Birmingham.

Look, there's young people, there's old people.

It's it's a city. There's anything you want to find there, you're you can find. And if you can't, then you make it. That's part about it.

So, 2009, you got bitten by the the bug. Uh, bitten by the bug, you know, met a person, came home in love, rosecolored glasses, like riding high like Burning Man changed my life. Can't I remember trying to go back to work the following week in my little suit with at that time a Blackberry in this world of, you know, government and politics and it felt so wrong. I was just like, you know, I I I I just had this like I need to be more creative and I want to be around creative people and I want to feel you well I wanted to feel like I felt at Burning Man all the time which is not really realistic but um but it definitely planted a seed and uh let's see that was 2009 and by 2010 I had left my job and I had spent six months in Southeast Asia

my like eat pray love

uh experience studied yoga and studied Bu ISM in Nepal and had an amazing adventure and was like this time I'm going to do it right. I'm going to join a theme camp. Actually that was 2011. 2010 I went back for like also a short time. 2011 I was like I'm going to do it right. I'm going to do allin. I'm going to join a real theme camp. I'm going to be there for build. I ordered my Kodiak tent from a from a cyber cafe in maybe Vietnam. I can't remember where it was but I was like preparing. It was June and I was like this time I'm doing it right. So I got on a build crew and I went out for build week and I, you know, build stuff and made stuff and that was like the first year I really experienced like the full thing. Um, and then quickly after that 2012, so I had left my job. I didn't know what I was going to do. I was still living in San Francisco. I did everything from studying to be a birth doula and a death doula and a hospice volunteer and was painting houses and was just sort of like trying to figure out where I was going career-wise and what the next chapter of my life was going to look like. And I had a lucid dream, which I had never had before. I was like, "This is weird. I can like decide what's happening in my dream." And I don't really remember how I knew or made this connection that Ray Allen, who had given me my first ticket, who I had then met on Play, I went to track him down in first camp

and found him at like a cocktail party and my aunt and I were covered in dust and like ragged and I remember being like like coming into this environment and there were like shrimp cocktail and people were clean and like wearing fancy outfits on play. I was like this is a whole other scene that I was not aware of and anyway had thanked him and created some sort of you know friendship with him and he had um in my memory had been to a l lucid dreaming workshop or something. Anyway, I asked to have coffee with him or we decided to have coffee. We had coffee at at Sight Glass down in Soma and we had a nice like 45 minutes and at the end of the 45 minutes he said, "What are you going to what are you doing for work these days?" And I was like, "I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. I'm doing all these things." And he was like, "I think you should apply to work at Burning Man." And I was like, "What?" And he was like, "We're hiring two roles. We're hiring like an assistant for government relations and a PR manager. And I remember riding my bike home from that coffee. I had not even applied. I rode my bike home and I was like I could see the future of my life. It was like something big was happening and I yeah it took a long that was I don't know January and I applied and I wasn't offered the position for four 5 months, but I was on the I was on the track to the deep inside of Burning Man.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, but it was just interesting like we were talking about um being like a a government like or like liaison or or like working for the government and and like what a great excuse that is like to go to Bernie band. It's like no no it's it's it's for for work, you know, like and then I'm like Did you actually do anything on the play like related to that?

I did go on an external relations tour,

which was the name of the program that Bernie man runs to show elected officials and related folks kind of what we do and how we do it and why it matters and why it's not all the things that you said that people think it is. And I had met Will Roger and I had met a couple other folks on that tour. I mean, I don't remember writing a report for the senator when I got back to the office about what was happening at Bernie man. I I I think I did report back in some general way of like it's amazing what people are doing with public lands and

let me explain it in expressive dance.

Yeah.

Like okay you can stop now

now I have to quit my job sorry

bye. So when you started working for them is that kind of the role you were taking on or being on the other side of it?

I definitely think this the senior leadership at Bernie man saw my government relations background and government background as a big asset and I didn't really put it together. I actually remember talking to my dad when I was working on my cover letter and he said, "Well, it's a city. They have a lot of the same things that government has to think about. You should put that in your cover letter." And I was like, "Oh, great."

Uh, so it's true. Like definitely a lot of that experience I had worked on political campaigns and I had worked for nonprofits and I had worked for the federal government for four years and it gave me a lot of helpful understanding of different stakeholders and different priorities and how to communicate about things to different audiences and um yeah the role I applied for was designed and described to me to report to Andy Grace. Okay.

Who had built the communications team and was like a rock star Burning Man lore.

Mhm. between when I applied and when I was hired, she I don't know when she actually decided to leave, but she left. And so the role was most elevated from what I had thought I was getting myself into kind of overnight and it was June. And so Andy was gone and the event was in 8 weeks and I was managing Media Mecca and BMIR and

a huge amount of what was happening on Playa and a complex communications team and relations and all of it. And it was a wild like trial by fire for sure.

Yeah. I was going to say like how did you land into that hot like frying pan? I mean because it's like I mean had you even been volunteering with any department? I mean did this just fresh face show up and all of a sudden it's like you know BMI and media mech and everyone's just like wait we're we're reporting to who who like who are you? You know it's like I've been going to Bernie bed for a couple years now.

Yes I was most definitely fresh face. And yeah, so many people around me had been volunteering for years and years and I, you know, was hired as an outsider who had a resume and some skills, but I did not have any, you know, real Burning Man context of of any kind of depth. So, I learned a lot. Thankfully, Will Chase, who was on my team, was so kind and warm and welcoming and taught me so many things. And

Lyanna Moral who was managing Media Mecca at the time, also incredible. And thankfully to them, I was able to kind of get my footing, but it was um it was very stressful. It was very exciting. Very stressful.

So, did you start day number one, you put like the the Noriega hat on and you're just like, new sheriff in town.

Not my style.

I'm going to burn everything down and fire all your asses. Like,

like, please tell me what's going on. I'll listen to everything you have to say.

Yeah. No, that's the should be doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like defer to the people who like I know you've all been doing this for years, so I will listen to you.

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. So that was 2012. Are you still in the same role or

I was with the organization for 12 years and served as the first communications director through so much amazing growth and change the the switch. It was kind of funny. I had worked in the nonprofit sector quite a bit and I was so excited to come work

for a straightup LLC. I mean, it was not a typical LLC. We were not really managing, you know, for finances as the as the goal, but um but right after I arrived, they were like, "We're transitioning into a nonprofit." I was like, "Wait, what? Okay, but I actually know that world, so I can be useful." So, the transition to the nonprofit, the move of the headquarters, ers into the mission, the really intense global scrutiny, selling out for the first time, all that hubbabub uh was was part of the deal. And I feel really grateful that I got to be there for such a time of of growth and change and challenges and global opportunities, the growth of the regional network. I got to go to Burning Man in different countries. I got to represent Burning Man on global stages. I spoke on behalf of Burning Man in Turkey and Japan and Argentina and Europe. I mean, I had an incredible experience working for the organization and I'm so grateful for for all of the things that I was able to learn and grow and do. And then two, it's just about two years ago, July of 2020.

What are we in 2024?

I I felt like my my time my ride was had come to an end. So, I left the organization. Yeah. Just about two years ago.

Wow. What did doing now?

Many things. I've got a lot of balls in the air. I was really fortunate to get to go to graduate school in the last couple of years that I was working for Burning Man. So, I got a master's in cities from the London School of E economics and I focused on creative placemaking and art and culture and urban development and have been really focused on like how do we bring some of what's best about Black Rock City into around communities and urban spaces and how do we make it accessible to people who would not otherwise ever get to go to the event. So that's been kind of the driving force and the biggest example of that that I'm working on is the Western Lights Festival which have you heard of it?

No. What's that?

We are going to have our third event in February of 2027. It's a all free community festival here in Reno where we shut down streets and take over downtown. And we have large scale interactive art and music and food and a lot of the shenanigans you might find on Playa but happening in a city urban space with all ages and all kinds of people and backgrounds for three nights in the winter. And it's really fun.

We had 70,000 people show up for our first event last year and the same this year which was a feat because it happened during an epic record setting snowstorm. So, was a very interesting and challenging build and a magical scene when we finally got the got things off the ground. But um

this is in Reno.

This is in Reno.

The Western Lights was seated by the city of Reno using ARPA funds, COVID recovery funds, because Reno looked around and felt like it was time to create kind of the next legacy event for the region and went and studied light art festivals because they can be a great economic driver. They're fun. The community can get involved. There's, you know, Blink in Cincinnati and there's Luna Fett in New Orleans. There is there are many of them all over Europe. Europe's way ahead of us with the light festivals and obviously it's Reno and we have a huge Burning Man community and we have all this Burning Man art and we felt like this is a really natural thing for this city and in particular to host. So there was a precedent called Sculpture Fest. that happened, Reno Sculpture Fest. It happened for a few years before I moved to Reno and and this is sort of like Sculpture Fest 2.0 and um and so the City Seed funded it and now we are transitioning into our own independent nonprofit. I'm actively fundraising and looking for sponsors and figuring out how to create a sustainable future for it because we really want to keep it free to attend. Uh and you know, we grant hundreds of thousands of dollars to artists and it's expensive to throw a part So

yeah,

we're going to figure out how to how to make it last. But it's a really it's a wonderful project to be a part of.

So what kind of like art or you said like lights festival? I mean is it just like all like like like lasers and projection and stuff or is it like what kind of art?

We have a lot of large scale sculptures. About a third of the work has been to Burning Man in the past. So a lot of the kind of art you would find at Burning Man is there. But then yes, projection mapping on buildings,

uh, you know, small scale sort of intimate experiences all the way up to to larger ones. We install art along the Truckucky River. We install art in the middle of the streets. We have six stages with all kinds of music from country and mariachi to EDM to whatever you you're into. You'll find some of it.

And uh, food trucks and kids friendly spaces. We did DJ workshops for kids. We partnered with the Nevada Museum of Art to do a workshop where kids could make glow-in-the-dark stuff to wear and then bring it out to the festival. We did a photography workshop. So, we're really trying to bring in kind of art and technology and education and the intersection of those and how we inspire the next generation of creators and people who want to make weird stuff happen.

Yeah. So, is this kind of like the whole like Western Lights Festival? You said like other festivals of like the similar thing like the sculpture large scale sculpture thing like Is this kind of more of a newer thing? Like if you go back like a couple of decades, it's like would you have seen anything like this? Like is this like one of the influences of Burning Man, you know, where it's it's like, oh, you know, you can have do these things in like in urban settings like

Yeah, I think there's a lot of factors that have played into them taking off and Burning Man is certainly one of them and certainly in Reno for sure a big influence for it happening. Light art has predated Burning Man by a lot by quite a while. But I do think that this I this sort of culmination and bringing together the light and the art and the music and the people in urban spaces has has definitely picked up speed over the past couple of decades. There's the Portland Winter Lights Festival which I think is in maybe their

12th or 15th year, something like that. Uh which is awesome and a similar model. There's one in Napa. So we are actually working both with Portland and Napa so that artists can bring their pieces to all three based on the timing of the festivals. So they all happen in January and February and then and that way artists can kind of go on the road and and put their pieces in all three festivals.

I mean if you think about it like some of those like like Japanese like lantern festivals and things. I mean you could go back like centuries.

Sure. I mean we're humans are obsessed with fire and light and what happens when you bring that into different spaces and how it brings people together and creates magical moments and is inspiring and especially in the dead of winter in Reno when it's dark and cold it really you know we we wondered like will people really come out for this at night in the winter and they certainly did and hopefully we'll continue to

I could see yeah people wanting to you know because I mean the sun sets earlier it's darker you know I mean people are inside kind of cut off from each other. It's just like it's, you know, it's a it's an awesome fun thing to do. And and there's probably great food trucks.

Great food trucks. A lot of hot cocoa. We like And we've created indoor spaces for people to get warm, too. We did black light bowling and

different opportunities and experiences where people can get get out of the a bit. Some tents, heated tents and things like that.

Are there like flame effects, too, or

We have a few flame effects. We found the permitting to be more difficult than I would have hoped, but of course

a few pieces with flame effects and we're going to work with our fire marshall and see if we could do more in the future. Um but if you've been to Burning Man and you go to Western Lights, you're like, "Oh, this is very familiar." But it importantly is not a Burning Man event. And we fel feel really proud and excited that people from all walks of life in Reno are interested in wanting to come and not just sort of burners, but it certainly it certainly rhymes with Burning Man, right? I was going to say, yeah, rhymes with

Yeah.

So, um, okay. Uh, let's maybe get to their second question. Your background, your pre- Burning Man background. So, you said you grew up in Alaska.

I grew up in Alaska, Juno, which then became my Playa name and my radio handle.

Oh,

I was born and raised single mom, kind of chaos, but very loving and fun. Ad venturous childhood.

Mhm.

My parents were in the restaurant industry. Got divorced when I was young, but kept the restaurant. My mom kept the restaurant going. So, I kind of grew up in and around food and food service and hospitality and the party and the work hard, you know, work hard, play hard kind of environment.

Live music. My dad's a musician. There was a lot of live music happening in Alaska. Folk music, bluegrass, that kind of thing. And yeah, really When I look back, you know, I'm 45. It was the '8s. It was I was feral. Like, we just did, you know, we ran wild. And

but this was like like more urban like city environment. I mean, I think when people think Alaska is like those shows where it's like you're out in the wilderness and you got a a gun to keep the bears away like

Yeah. I I mean, well, I would have some of those experiences, but I grew up in Juno, which is the capital city. I put in air quotes because there's 30,000 people. So, it was the same size as my college and it's very isolated. You have to drive, you have to fly or take a boat to get there. There's no roads out of Juno.

Wow.

And a really vibrant community, arts, culture, food, performance, theater kind of um it was a great town to grow up in. Pretty diverse for a small town in Alaska. Um and yeah, I really I feel like I was lucky to grow up there. But by the time I was 14 or 15, I kind of got antsy like

Yeah.

What else is out there?

So, you wanted to go to some like hot tropical place. So, you went to what did you say? Montreal.

We We vacationed in Mexico and Hawaii at any chance we could get. And yeah, I did not choose a warm climate for college. I actually ended up I spent one year in Connecticut in middle school and then I went to boarding school for this second half of high school in upstate New York. So, I had a it's like all girls traditional boarding school experience and then

um and then Montreal for school. So,

did you go Miguel, you said?

Yeah. Mhm.

Oh, okay. No, I went to University of Vermont in Burlington and so

yeah, I remember like you know because Montreal was 45 minutes away something like that and

remember those Februaries like in Montreal like I even in Burlington just freezing freezing dark cold but

dark cold

everyone always like was saying you're from Alaska but I was from the southern part of Alaska which is more rainy it's not that intense cold and yeah I learned quickly that it was all about having the right clothes and layering and once you did that you could actually you know be comfortable and have a good time but it was a rude awakening. I used to pass through Burlington. We would take the bus down to New York from Montreal or sometimes the train Amtrak, but

uh yeah, I remember Burlington being cute little

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Also like Montreal has like all those like underground tunnels and stuff you can kind of get from one place to the other.

Montreal is a great city. I went back for the first time. I graduated in 2003. I went back, it'll be almost two years ago now for for a friend reunion and it still is so magical, international, great food, great music.

Our food is incredible in

our I mean I that was my education. My college education was in dance clubs and restaurants and you know with my friends and friends of friends I I I went to class and I got okay grades, but I really feel like the city of Montreal is is where what taught me and and sort of raised me in that portion of my of my life. Um,

so what degree did you get?

You know,

what took you to San Francisco?

Liberal arts people who couldn't choose. I think I was a sociology and um I think anthropology and then I landed on uh oh my god, what's it called? Cultural studies. Cultural studies and an art history minor, which actually has

served you well.

Yeah. Yeah.

I took a lot of communications classes. I took a lot of like feminist textuality. That was one of my courses. You know, we looked at we looked at art and we looked at advertisements and we looked at how the world thinks of itself and tried to

I read a lot of philosophers. It was fun. Man, I like we don't know how lucky we have it if we are fortunate to go to school. And

it just seems like a very preurning Burning Man preparatory kind of experience like all of those courses you're talking about.

It made a lot of sense in the way my career has panned out and which is shocking because at the time I really felt like I was just stabbing in the dark like no idea. I took a history course the spring of my senior year and then had a total breakdown because I realized I should have majored in history. I loved it so much but I had never taken a history class before. So I remember graduating feeling like I don't know what this was about or if this was useful. Maybe I picked the wrong school. Maybe I should have gone to a small liberal arts school like so many people in my my family did like I got into and chose this big urban school instead. I really I panicked. Uh but it has all it has all panned out. And

well, why San Francisco then after that?

I was going to say I would have stayed in Montreal had I been Canadian or spoken French or could have gotten a work visa or any of those challenges, but because that wasn't an option, I felt like, okay, New York or San Francisco, that's where that's where There you go. Or where I need to be. And New York was a little intimidating and expensive. And I had a friend with a couch in San Francisco.

I mean, San Francisco. I mean, in terms of like intimidating, expensive, it's like, well, both are kind of expensive. New York. Yeah, I can see maybe a little more intimidating. San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah.

It felt definitely more accessible in 2004 than it does now. San Francisco did at least. So yeah, I showed up, slept on a couch, got a job waiting tables, and kind of built my my world from there. The first job I got outside of restaurants was for a nonprofit in the tenderloin doing HIV and AIDS prevention and harm reduction work.

And it was intense and amazing, and I was in way over my head leading women's support groups and things that I was highly unqualified for, but it was a scrap nonprofit and we were doing what what we did as well as we could and

it was an amazing community to be a part of and

actually the the guy the associate director at the time happened to be

someone I knew from from Montreal from from McGill

and had also been to Burning Man and he was also one of the first people who told me stories about Burning Man. They used to go on a school bus in like 2002 34 before I started going and so he also planted seeds.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it seems like all of this is like just like just various steps on the way of like an education, you know, or just like education through life, you know, learn.

I feel fortunate that I've gotten to live a life that's full of adventure and exposure to lots of different people and ideas. That's one thing my mom gave me early on is we had this big house that we couldn't really afford. So, we rented rooms out to different people and there was an apartment in the basement. And so, there was just a constant cast of characters in and out and she always prioritized travel kind of over other things. So like if we had the money and that's what we did. We

we went to Europe and we went to Mexico and we you know

got to see how a lot of different people

live and approach life and I've tried to continue that through my life is just like

really appreciating the diversity of experiences.

So the people who would like rent out rooms it's like you're just kind of exposed to different characters who would kind of come and go as well.

Yeah.

Wow.

And did you have any like brothers or sisters or anything or was it just you and your mom?

I have a stepbrother and step sister and a half brother on my dad's side. So my dad remarried pretty quickly after my parents split up. I think I was well they got together when I was three or four. They didn't get married until I was seven or eight, something like that. My brother was born when I was eight, my half brother. And they were in the picture like I I went back and from my mom and dad's house for most for a lot of my childhood. and was there when my brother was born. I was actually in the room when my brother was born and uh yeah and very connected with both sides of my family and my parents luckily figured out how to be friends and co-parents pretty it took took a few years but they really got into a good stride and are continue to be good friends today. So I've had an extended family system

for a while.

Have any of them uh Have you brought any of them to Burning Man?

My little brother and my dad have both been My dad's been three times and my brother came the once. My brother had a wild Burning Man experience. My brother was out at some dance club like theme camp esplanade situation and I don't know what time of day or night but saw the marathon going by and decided that that looked like a good idea. So

like right at the moment right at the moment and he either was not wearing shoes or decided the shoes he was wearing were not appropriate. So, he ran the marathon barefoot and came back to camp with f***** up feet.

Wow. Wow.

Yeah. He survived. He was He was a trooper. He has not been back. I would love for him to come with his partner and their son. I bring my son every year. They're similar age. I think we could have a very fun family camp. different version of Burning Man.

Um, but yeah, my dad loved it out there. He's actually coming this next month. We're going Fly Ranch is having a camp out

for the 40th sort of anniversary of Burning Man and

it's a Burners Without Borders gathering and so we're going and my dad's coming to meet Burning Man.

I'd love to go to Fly Ranch. I don't think I've ever been out there.

Oh, yeah.

One of these years.

Yeah. But it's just interesting just seeing like the whole like life cycle of Burning Man. It's like I I don't know. I I through most people I talk to I think most people like their first experience is like you're in your in your 20s, you know, and and you have like one different very different mode of life, you know, and it's like I'm going to dance and I'm going to party, I'm going to do this and and then, you know, years go by and you get a little older and you Well, of course, like I said, like with me and my brother, we kind of went in two different directions. It's like he just kind of kept going and going going in the partying and then realized he was an alcoholic and then just had to just stop you know and then like for me like you know I my wife and I got married and and then we we had a kid and stuff you know and that's why like I took 13 years off cuz I was like well I got to you know have a family live a life and then now that my my son just graduated from high school and so like oh you know I'm like just kind of like getting back into it now but um

yeah yeah Has your son been out there yet?

No. No. I mean, because when we were So, he was born in 2008. I kind of retired from doing all the regional stuff here in Hawaii cuz I started the Hawaii regional in 2002. I think 2012, I retired. And so, when he was like, yeah, like three or four, we were like I was kind of hauling him around like doing stuff, you know, like with our own little like festival things here and But um it's always kind of a timing thing like with school and everything and now he's going off to college. I'm always kind of like well you know it's it's high school. This is an important year. You can't miss that. And then going to college well it's your first year of college. You can't miss that. You know I'm like

also coming from Hawaii it's it's a little like logistically challenging. I'm sure like Alaska or coming from overseas you know it's same kind of thing. Yeah,

going to regional events overseas gave me so much compassion for how much work and effort it takes to get to Black Rock City and how to prepare and what do you bring and it's so Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's the whole issue of like like like concierge or plugandplay camps and people are just kind of like oh they're like outraged like how dare you like you pay all this money and everything's just kind of like there for you. But then I could see like another side of the coin where it's like well I'm coming from Singapore or East or South Africa or something. It's like it's like yeah, even coming from Hawaii like I'm like I'm like okay I can bring two duffel bags like my weight limits like 50 lbs each and it's like I need to bring everything including food you know I mean not water thank god you know I'll get that there you know and I'm taking the bus and whatever but it's being able to like have a place a camp you know where things are kind of set up and you can kind and land I mean, not everybody's driving from like, you know, Reno or San Francisco or even LA or the Southwest or something, you know, or even like New York City, you know, like they have or Boston, they have a container and you can for like a hundred bucks, you could put some of your stuff in there and it just like shows up on the pla.

But, uh,

yeah, my very closest friend and his husband are coming from South Korea. This this is their second time. They came for the first time two years ago. And it's so interesting trying to help them prepare and sort of the timeline they're on and needing to com they need to like figure out all the details now and I'm sort of like I don't know we'll just figure it out. We'll just figure out when we're going to play and how we're getting there. We'll just figure it out. And he's like Megan

yeah

I my timeline is different than yours and like what I need to to figure out is different and anyway it's been it's been really interesting and trying to help them. But yeah really appreciate it like okay there's a there's a spectrum here of DIY to to complete plug and play and it there it makes sense to engage in different places for different reasons for different people.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean then we as part of the Hawaii regional like for many years like we had uh like a Hawaii like theme camp we call it the copilina camp and yeah it was a similar kind of thing where where we're like okay we set up this place and so we're like okay we'll take care of like registering the theme camp and jumping through all the hoops and everything and so like a lot of people can just kind of come and just like plop down and tent, you know.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah.

Possible for other people to experience it that wouldn't otherwise.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just

Is there still a regional in Hawaii or no?

H Well, things kind of slowly kind of deteriorated like over time and then um it's pretty inactive now. I mean, we used to be like I don't know. We we we sort of refer locally here to Hawaii as like a zombie regional cuz we was like we used to be like very active. We had festivals, we had things on all the islands and then now it's like next to nothing, you know. Um there is uh this guy on the big island. It's actually kind of made national news for some bad reasons, but now it's getting better. But he he's actually a regional from like Pennsylvania and so he's I guess a pretty wealthy man. And so he bought like 14 15,000 acres on the big island and he was like, I'm going to do my own event. And we're like, oh cool, maybe we can all like work together. And you know, he just kind of seemed more interested in doing his own event, you know, and kind of made some of the locals kind of mad, but but he's now we kind of going through the whole process and he's kind of he now has the special use permit and he's being like more responsive to people and so it's We're kind of hoping that it'll help kind of reignite some stuff here, but Hawaii is just like it's it's very remote. It's very expensive. It's very transitory, you know, like people kind of come and people go. Like so many people come here being like, "Oh, I'm going to be here for the rest of my life." And then 18 months later they're like, "I got to get out of here."

Yeah.

And it's like the rents are are like San Francisco, New York. Tokyo kind of level and even

the wages I imagine are not

I mean there's touristy jobs you know I mean weight tables but like yeah you know you're you know renting a studio apartment or like a bedroom for like you know 1,500 2,000 a month or something you know like what you

I mean a lot of people grow up here and they they have to leave that's why there's so many Hawaii people living in like Las Vegas and Reno and other places. Yeah. So, it's it's an an ongoing thing. You know, I'm trying to help uh Clem, which is our he's our one last well, there's a second one, Trey and Maui, but he actually lives on the mainland now. So, like I don't know. Uh well, let's see. Let's get to the last question. So, what is the been the impact of Bernie man on your life?

I mean, wholly comprehensive. complete. I

however you want to answer.

Like it's so hard to know what my life would have been like had I not stumbled into this world and community. I met my husband because of Burning Man. He still works for Burning Man. My husband's the general manager of Fly Ranch. So I am still very involved and close to the community and the organization. And

Oh, what? So you do you guys live out there or

No, we live in Reno. He's out there every other week or so depending on the season, especially more when they're when they're producing a bunch of events. He'll be out there for weeks at a time, but

Oh, okay.

Yeah, it's uh it's it's Yeah, Burning Man. I mean, we moved to Reno because Burning Man was opening an office here and we felt like I'd had 15 years in the Bay Area and I was ready for a change and open to experimenting with what it would be like to be here. And now we've been here eight years. And

yeah, how do you like it?

So

yeah, I love Reno. It's it's really fun to be in a place that feels like it has momentum creatively and culturally, you know, it's the general feeling, although fully understand from a local perspective, if you've been here a long time and have watched the the flow of Californians coming and the increase in real estate, there are definitely challenges that have come. But there's also this feeling of like Reno's reinventing itself. It's not just about casinos. It's about outdoors. It's about arts. It's about culture. It's got a good food scene starting to go. So, the feeling of like this place is getting sort of better, like it's got momentum and forward forward progress as opposed to the 15 years I spent in San Francisco, which were mostly about how it used to be great and how it's been ruined. So, it's I really enjoy this like midsized American city situation where you can have a big impact the bar to starting a restaurant or starting a business or an event or anything is just it's so much lower. It's the government here is like really trying to help people be entrepreneurial and creative and start a thing. And so yeah, I've really enjoyed it. I don't know if we'll be here forever, but it's the quality of life is really high. Lake Tahoe is close by. The Black Rock Desert's close by. It's got a really

great community and um I'm really happy to be here.

So the evolution of Reno into more kind of a artsy sorted city. Well, I mean it's it's hard to say, you know, it's just like would that be possible if Bernie man didn't exist? But like I mean like what influence you think Bernie man had on all of that or do you think it would have happened anyway?

I think it would happen to some degree. There was certainly a thriving art scene before Bernie man ever set foot in the Black Rock Desert. There were artists living and making and creating in and around Reno and and Northern Nevada and the economic impact of Burning Man is significant on this area. And the fact that it's put Reno on the global map in a different kind of way is significant. I mean, it's the largest week of the year for the Reno airport. It's It's huge.

Really?

Yeah. Busiest week of the year. And I used to know all those stats by heart, but I'm out of practice, so I don't remember the dollar amount, but um yeah. think things like the Western Lights Festival, would it exist without Burning Man? It it would look and feel a lot different. So, it's hard to know what it would look and feel like. There are definitely several large scale sculptures that the city has bought that premiered or first were shared at Burning Man and now live have a permanent home here in public spaces. So, it's um yeah, this Bernie man's had a significant impact on Reno.

Well, what reputation did Reno have before like like decades ago? like 70s, 80s. I mean,

casinos and divorces. People came.

I was going to say, wasn't it the divorce?

Divorce. Yeah.

Yeah. Capital or something like that.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

It's fun. It's fun to watch and be part of Reno reinventing itself to some degree while still celebrating its very western, very independent, libertarian roots and history. Gambling is a big part of that and I don't it's not going to go away but it's it's now one piece of a a bigger puzzle about I think how Reno understands itself and why people are choosing to move here which is a lot about access to the outdoors and

affordability

and what do you think about because you said you you said you have at least one child but um it's just like the the next generation of burners right I mean or you know the typical thing it was like oh like the the kids always Belly do like the opposite of the parents like the Alex Katonsens of the the world you think they're just going to be like no desert for me or like no arts or or you know have your your kid your kids like uh bitten got bitten by the bug too.

I have one and he's five so it's a little too soon. It's so woven into his experience of life. He's been every single year since he was in my belly. He doesn't he it's it's a place and a thing he looks forward to but it's also an a community of people and you know it's infiltrated every part of his life. So

so too soon to tell but I remember when I first started meeting people and I started feeling old when I started meeting people who are like oh my parents go to Burning Man or my parents used to go to Burning Man and they were not interested in going to Burning Man. I was like oh this is a whole different situation like uh so yeah it's interesting I love I love playing with my kid out there. There's a really sweet little Profiles and Dust documentary about kids at Burning Man from probably 10 years ago now. And my favorite quote in there is a kid who says, "I love going to Burning Man because it's where my parents come up to my level."

And I really

That's awesome.

I've always been struck by that. I think about it all the time. I think it's a playground and and my son gets to see me play and be, you know, openhearted and not stressed about time and place and what's next and, you know, hurry up and do this and do that and and we get to explore and experiment together in a way that we still don't do anywhere else.

That totally sounds like at least a sticker, if not a t-shirt, is like a picture of that kid's face. It's like, I love Pretty Man. My parents get to come to my level. It's like, oh my god, that that is so perfect. Yeah, he's been a little under underwhelmed. Like we're always like, "Isn't this amazing?" And he's kind of like, "Yeah, whatever. Life should be like this all the time." Like he doesn't really understand,

you know, special it is. And he's

they got to ruin him. You think when he goes to like foreign countries and places like Coliseum, whatever, Eiffel Tower, blah blah blah.

We did take him to Portugal and he seemed somewhat adequately impressed, but

he um He's very He's a little jaded burner. We were at a burn at Fly Ranch last year and it was the effigy burn. It was Saturday night. It was a really cool effigy of a horse that in integrated like natural elements. It was beautiful. Maybe a hundred people there

and it's Saturday night and we like go to get up to the burn and we're in the front row and he's like, "This is boring.

What else you got?

Let's go back to camp." And I was like, All right. I've seen a lot of effigy burns. I don't need to stay. So, we went back to camp and ate potato chips and there's pictures of him with like the burn like way back in the distance and he's just like eating his chips, chilling. So, you know, I think it'll be he'll be hard to impress for the rest of his life. But

I really like the the playfulness, the interactivity, the open-mindedness, the you know, we constantly have to remind him that he can't just go into people's yards and touch people's homes and cars and like climb on every piece of art he sees because that's just how he thinks the world is and should be. So I can't

Yeah. Yeah. So as part of my project, you know, I'm just trying to I mean the whole idea is like is is like is like what is the impact of Bernie man like over time on on people and I've been trying to like building in like equity from like the the ground from the foundation. So like I have like 50% like men and women and I've had Black Burn cuz I've had people from other country, you know, people from like everywhere. And so I'm just trying to like sample, you know, like people from like from everywhere. And so one of like like my areas where it's like I haven't quite explored yet was definitely is like the younger burners like anyone like under 30. But also another thing was um like what we're talking about like people who've grown up like this is one of my like like my holy grails is like I want to interview and I already know like at least three or four people like this where were like They're now young adults, you know, but their entire life, like my friend, um, God, what was his name? He's been working the DPW for years. And I remember like him and his, I think it was his girlfriend or wife that like had a baby. And I I actually have pictures and video of like the kid was like maybe 9 months old crawling around in the dust in the, you know, like naked like crawling around in the dust, you know, and I think he's like maybe 20. years old now or or something. I was just like

I want to talk to people like that too, you know, which just it's like what I mean. Okay, the whole second question of like pre-Burnie man experience, okay, that's out the window, right? Like

cuz that's a whole other experience. It just it's like what's what's the influence of Brady Man in your life? And it might take a beat to just be like, well, I don't my whole life has been Burning Man, so

yeah, I think it's an interesting worldview to grow up in and and And I I have a couple names I can give you if you I'm sure you you're talking to people, but

Well, I always would would love more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I think

Yeah.

I kind of

I mean, I would just say that in terms of how Burning Man has affected my life, there's obviously getting to be a part of a community of people who have a similar kind of value set. But then there's the just the fact that I met my husband

because of Burning Man, who also worked for Burning Man, and now we have this kid It's just so it's so fundamentally has changed the trajectory in in so many ways. So yeah,

I mean it's your whole community, right? I mean

my whole community and this year I'm working on an art project for the first time and 17 years in it's I I decided I've done a lot of things camps obviously worked for the org for a long time. I've volunteered on lots of different teams but I've never built art for Burning Man, which feels like a real big part of the experience and I'm really excited about this piece that we're building at the generator. Um the artist is named Gazelle Dasty and I think you might talk to her.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She's incredible. She's got a real huge creative vision and is sort of on a mission to share Persian culture with the world and help us understand, you know, it's our version of what we think of Iran is only very one-sided.

And so this art is this piece is 23 feet tall. It's called Zarvon. It's based It has like Persian motif, rug motifs. It's steel.

It's got interactive um components to it. And yeah, I'm just I'm fired up about Burning Man in a new way this year because I'm experiencing it through the lens of being on an art crew, which is really

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you have to kind of like reinvent the experience for yourself otherwise. Yeah, there's endless ways to experience it. And one of these years I'm going to take a year off. I I think that'd be a great idea.

Yeah.

Hasn't happened yet.

But it's just so easy living in Reno. Like you said, it's just like, oh, we'll just drive up there. It's a couple hours away.

Well, and there's no way we could stay home in Reno and not go. Like if we take a year off, we've got to go to Goa or like we'd have to be somewhere else because the the pull would be too too too hard not to go.

Yeah. Well, I just remember like back in the day when I was living in San Francisco and when it was like Britney man time like like you drive around and you just see people like with like U-Hauls and or like you know pulling like dusty like futons and whatever like you know out of storage facilities and and and or people like you know pulling like couches off of streets and putting them in trucks like everywhere you'd go and or you'd go to like Costco and people be like and you'd see people like wandering around around like, "Oh yeah, yeah, I get a case of this. Oh yeah." And then it's funny cuz it would just be like, "You're going to burn me. You going to like Yeah. Yeah. I imagine Reno is probably like that." Like many times, right?

Yes. Now, you know, companies have caught on. So Whole Foods does their whole Burning Man, you know, section. All the stores do their Burning Man section for the week. And yeah, it's a it's a pretty full takeover.

All right. Well, I think been going. Uh,

yeah,

I have my timer thing kind of

great, Andy.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much.

Thanks for having me.

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