EP 87 David Date

Episode 87 with David Date is out now! Meet David Date, a skilled fabricator who shares his decade-long evolution from a struggling entrepreneur to a prominent Burning Man artist. The conversation explores the technical and emotional challenges of bringing massive installations to the desert, specifically detailing the mechanical failures and "ego deaths" associated with his ambitious projects like the walking centipede and the spinning stainless steel Merkaba. Beyond personal anecdotes, his story is a critical reflection on the tensions between communal effort and "plug-and-play" commercialization, exemplified by Date’s public exposure of artists who outsource their fabrication to foreign factories while claiming credit for the work. He defines Burning Man as a transformative "experiment in human connection" that transcends modern political polarization through shared labor, service, and the raw trials of desert survival.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Ooh la la. It's that Andy. And today our guest is David Dates. Welcome.

Thanks for having me, Andy.

Yeah. So, we were actually just put in touch pretty recently by our mutual friend Ian Rowan. So, okay. Well, I always kind of start off with like we'll get into how you met Ian, but like how did you even first hear of Burning Man? Like, and what was your first year?

I I was studying geology at UC Santa Cruz um and had been doing welding fabrication kind of all through there. And you know, shortly after graduating, I'm like, you know, hey, like, do I get a job, you know, doing oil derek stuff or do I like continue doing my passion? So, I started working at a fabrication shop in Santa Clara, California.

What year was this?

Um, this is 200, you know, I got to think in terms of like how old my daughter was. So, like probably 2010, 2011.

Okay. working at a fabrication shop and you know they've gone to the burn uh they've got projects coming you know in and out you know so kind of like burner adjacent but a lot of gate fabs and commercial kitchen and stuff like that so

were you seeing some things left in the corner you're like well this is a fence this is a gate and you're like what the f*** is

yeah and now here is this like little Datson uh you know pickup truck that we put a flamethrowing elephant head on and I'm like that's that's wild. old man. Like this is crazy stuff. Um and you know, so like probably by like I guess Bernie man was kind of like I'm working on Bernie man projects as early as 2013.

Mhm.

Um and you know but never had the abundance in my life to actually just like okay like let's you know get a bunch of money together, you know, and then also like having a camp that's going to receive you and like make sure you don't die and stuff like that. Like

none of that had materialized and it wasn't even it wasn't my focus back then. I was just like this group like flailing entrepreneur trying to find something that's that worked and um and provide for my family.

Wow. So, but I mean in terms of like uh like finding a group to go with I mean weren't there people right there? I mean like were the people working in the shop? I mean you didn't want to go

I mean they they weren't in any better of a situation financially than I was. So, you know, it was all it was pretty desperate, you know, and um and there was like some substance abuse issues with at the shop and and it just like there, you know, like you need to have money to put in the tank and buy a ticket at least, you know. So,

uh so it came to 2016 um and I was working on um a buddy's art car. Uh his name's Nestro. Oh, he lives in Boulder Creek, California. So, he's got, you know, this Yikes trike and we're welding like rusted culverts over the fenders. Like, this thing's like all Edwardian like, you know, looks like,

wow,

you know, it's it's a sick little art car, but it breaks all the time. So, I'm his like go-to man. We welded we weld a quad axle, which was like a four It's a four lug quad axle, but it has suspension. And then he had these five lug forward wheels that were given to him. He's like, "We're going to take the quad axle. We're going to put the Ford wheels on and then I'm going to have suspension." And I made that happen. That, you know, that was really this project that really pushed me to like, you know, figure out like, you know, computerated design cuz we have to make a wheel adapter that doesn't exist on the internet.

Yeah.

Um and and in exchange, um Mo got me my ticket the next year.

So Mo Yeah. So Mo was like, "Yo, like, you know, you're a sick fabricator. Like, let's get you to the burn." Uh, so 2016, I was all like, man, I was all in my head. I was like, man, I have this concept for a mechanical centipede. Like, I've got the linkages worked out and the mechanisms, how it's going to work out, and I just went out of pocket, built this like just archaic like, you know, and that was cool.

So, that was your first year. You you brought your Centipede the first year? First year I'm I literally am thinking I'm going to show up at Bernie man and s*** on Playa and I am going to I am going to be somebody.

Wow. Okay.

Yeah.

Pretty Yeah. Yeah. There's no way to sugarcoat that, but you know it's like u

Well, it sounds like you've been kind of prepping for it like since 2010 11 you've been seeing this stuff and then helping other people with it. I'm sure people like you know just like over beers or whatever. like, "Oh man, I'm not going to build this spire that's 30 feet tall." And you know, like or like these people

I mean that's

Yeah. Well, that's like and ideas are cheap, you know, like you know, everyone has like 20 30 art project ideas and um

and the play is the best place for like good ideas to go to die, you know, or to be changed around be like, "Oh, that's not what I exactly what I envisioned." But I mean, in a lot of cases, like, wow, it's even cooler, right?

Yeah. So, I mean, I I I had this concept in in like in my mind in 2015 like just pure ego like I'm, you know, I got to do this before somebody else does. Like this thing's sick. It's going to be a walking centipede and it's all going to run on wheelchair motors. Um and uh so we built it out, had some help from the shop. Uh ended up getting I you know, like nothing goes as planned. I get to the I get to the burn on a Wednesday and I'm received by Amber who who has a camp to be continued. She's the regional contact to Santa Cruz.

And you know, they

they let me set up my centipede in camp and uh they take care of me and you know, spray me down with vinegar. It was really um that was that was an experience and and then you know the centipede proceeds to rip itself apart in camp. Uh legs cross, gear boxes crack like it, you know, bearings dump balls all over the Yeah. So So that was my first Bernie man experience. But

did you get to like see Burning Man at all or were you like pretty much just kind of like Yeah.

Well, the the best thing about your pro your like art project completely imploding on day one is that you get to do whatever you want to do for the rest of the week. So,

Oh, you weren't just like hunkered over it the whole time like damn it why I want to work like

Oh, well no, it's like I mean as soon as I got on Playa like and big ass flamethrowing art car you know, comes by. I'm like I'm like I mean, David, you're you're an idiot. Like you're

I'm going that way.

You were living this delusion of like, you know, like, okay, go to Bernie, man. s*** on Playa, Marian comes and give you a trophy or something like whatever the hell. Yeah, that

but that's, you know, that's Yeah, it's I mean, you can't really explain Burning Man to somebody, you know. You can't you have to go and experience it. to even have a frame of reference to be like, you know, this is, you know, this it's so massive. Even today, I go to the burn, this is 10 years later, and I'm like I'm like, was it this big last year? Like like how is there so much so many people, so much infrastructure? Like it's it's impossible for the human brain to, you know, really

quantify it.

Yeah.

The human effort and resources. And

I mean, even years ago when there was like 10,000 people or something like it It's impossible to see everything. I mean, even if you were just constantly like going around in like a golf cart, art car the entire time, even then it's just like you would just be like driving by be like, "Been, seen this, done that, you know, like like Yeah.

Yeah. And and it's like it's it's and you have to go out there. I mean, like it literally it was an ego death experience where just like, wow, David, you just went balls the wall for 2 and 1/2 months, drained all your all your bank accounts and you aren't you aren't even a f****** blip on the map. Your centipede we drug out onto the street and is now a bike rack

and

Yeah. And that and that was Yeah, it was it was a humbling experience. I mean

the coolest bike rack in Burning Man though.

It was super cool. Yeah. I I And it actually worked really great because there was

I saw the videos. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah.

Well, that's that's that was 2018. So all of my my first two art projects end up getting remake remade two years later,

you know, cuz there's always that nagging like, oh, what if we did it right? What if we didn't screw that up? What if we didn't fry a motor controller?

So, um, yeah. So, 2016, I come with an art project and just get s*** on.

And, um, and then that year I applied for an art grant for Topia, which is the uh San Diego regional.

Yeah.

And I was at the time I was making sacred geometry sculptures. So I had, you know, this

I had this piece I was selling on Etsy that was like an 18in stall star tetrahedrin wind sculpture, which it's like a star David but three-dimensional.

Yeah.

And I was like, yo, like these people are giving out money for art. Like let's make one of these but 10 foot tall. And they gave me the grant. I'm like, Holy s***. And uh and then I built I built an actual like funded art piece, brought it to Utopia, brought it to the burn. Um and um

so this is like a wind sculpture like the wind would spin it.

Well, yeah. I mean, initially it's a wind sculpture, but on Playa it's a wind sculpture that you can climb inside of. So it spins around in the wind,

but it, you know, you can also load the hippies up. And then there's it it's all suspended on stationary steel post with a with a bearing on top. So

the hippies can jump in there and spin around as well.

And it was like two pyramids like like kind of like one pointing up, one pointing down or sort of offcentered, right? Like

Yeah. They call it a star tetrahedrin. So a tetrahedrin is a three-sided pyramid.

Okay.

And if you invert two of them in on each other, then you have this crystallin shape that is, you know, equilateral triangles. And

and I Yeah. I realized like, hey, we can make these out of sheet metal. and it could bolt together and it's all crystallin. So once all of the holes kind of get squeezed together, everything will suck into shape and it won't have a choice but to be off.

But the my issue was was I ordered up the steel for that project and these were 12tx 4t sheets and I just assumed like yo that's 144 in x 48 in like let's make the marks and go.

Turns out It's, you know, 144 and 3/4 and uh 148 and a half. So my first iteration of Maraba, everything was off by like 316 of an inch.

All of the holes were punched off by like a quarter inch.

And um and that that really hurt because that took a project that I you know they say like we we didn't we did it because we thought it would be easy. And that's you know. Yeah. So, so I so just a quick overview of the art. Yeah.

We had a a bike rack centipede 2016 maraba 2017. We got honorarium

2018 and we could go in depth about that. Uh made remade remade the centipede called myriata raota which was 30 foot long aluminum sick LEDs state-of-the-art. LED controllers. Um, and

that's something you would just like take out on the playa or was it just kind of like more like installation somewhere?

Oh, dude, the thing locked.

Yeah,

like it moved. And

just like leave it out on the play.

Well, the art department didn't really know what to do because they give you placement and you're like responsible for an area around that location.

They're like, well, if you're going to be like walking around, like that's going to, you know, kind of complicate things. But we ended up not we It didn't walk far, so it that didn't turn out to be an issue.

Like a big steak in the ground, had like a leash like around its neck, and it was like I could go in a circle, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Uh and then 20 2019, I remade Merkava all out of stainless steel, laser cut, and um those last, you know, 2018, 2019, that's when I really leaned heavily into computer AED design. And that that's that's what kind of changed my life because that's my business. That's me, you know, doodling on the computer, that's my Burning Man art, everything. Um, so

did you ever like anticipate like before you I mean beforehand you did talk to people and they had all the experiences and you'd help build them this and that, but just like the sheer scale of like just like how much you would even learn, right? You know, it's like even just be like like uh the the tetrahedrin sculpture, you know, just engineering something for, you know, for reply a life, you know, you're just like I I wouldn't like I I never thought that people would like stand on top of it or or they they would shake it so violently, you know, like I mean it's funny cuz like people don't realize it's like oh I'm going to make this little paperier-mâché sculpture and go there and you come back and it's like what happened, you know? It's just like you need to like overbuild things like don't make out of like wood or cardboard when you could make it out of like metal or something, right?

Yeah. I've never So we had concerns with Myriad Robota in 2018 because you know we had to keep do everything out of aluminum to keep it lightweight and my art lead David Han who's a Chinese national he um he did all of the sculptural aspects and it was very thin like 20 gauge aluminum um put through an English wheel. So we had to kind of keep people off of that. So we put spikes we we made Yeah. We gave it a dangerous aesthetic and that was, you know, essentially like don't jump on this thing.

Did you put have to put all the other art will injure you like

No, people got

I I mean, you know, you could have a sign like so this so I I really I really like got heavy into safety. Um theorizing cuz you you have to anticipate what a person might do to like get a finger ripped off. So when I remade Maraba in 2019,

I mean I like This is a 2,000lb stainless steel spinning star.

Could hold as many as 12 people inside. So, you know, maybe that's like brings it up to 3500 lb. Like, you know, like this thing like this thing's dangerous, but there's a railing, there's a set of stairs, you know, and um you know, so I I I the first lady that rode in in 2019 and and like you know, like setting up a art project like you you're like maybe 36 hours no sleep. You're like trying to produce like a documentary about your art project while managing the art project and trying to find your damn hardware kit. And

I asked this, the first girl that wrote it, I was like, "So, how dangerous is it? How dangerous is this art project?" And she says, she thought about it for a couple seconds and she says, "The danger is perceivable. Anyone can see that this is dangerous and then they can choose how to interact with it and what, you know, and it's Totally true. Like I've I've got a homie that just loves to jump up on the roof of this thing

and you know and and he like things start spinning and your butt is slipping and the centrifugal force increases the further you travel from the center. Yeah.

You know, so you're you have this sensation that your your seat is this triangle and it's and it's narrowing

and the centrifugal force is picking up and he loves it. He absolutely loves it. And I'm like, "Yeah, man. Like do just don't just don't die. And uh and back then like I didn't really have any assets, so I never did insurance or anything. And I was like, you know what?

Put a sign like like rampart that way or like

No, I I made I made a couple signs that were jokes like don't be a dumbass. But never never put him on.

Like even just making a sign is like oh well he knew it was dangerous therefore he made a sign. Like you know just don't be a freaking idiot. Uh And if the danger is perceivable and you know this is a 2,000 pound pound spinning star of metal um you know and yeah it's uh but that's Burning Man art you know it's like

well there's the back of the ticket. I mean I mean if it's it's up to you to read it or not you know it's like you voluntarily assume the risk of like death and dismemberment or whatever. It's like it's funny like I' I've never even heard of someone being as like yeah I went to this like rusty knife sculpture thing and climbed all over it and and I got stabbed. So, I'm suing this guy. Like, what?

Well, that and that's this like, you know, this latigious culture that's kind of like swept through the West is, you know, something bad happens to me, therefore I'm entitled to, you know, something.

And like, you know, at Burning Man, like something bad happens to you, you don't really have anyone to blame except yourself, unless you got ran over by a cyber truck or something like that, you know? So yeah.

So yeah, there's Yeah, it's like the these concepts of like

I guess it's kind of like a victim. It's kind of like a victim culture where something bad happened to me and someone's going to pay, you know, but my insurance

Burning Man

Yeah. No, I completely foreign to Bernie man and you know

that might be a good bit for someone to play was like I'm the ply Karen, you know.

Yeah. But my insurance policy was is essentially being a broke ass, you know, and I was like, well, hey, worst case scenario, someone like breaks an arm or loses a finger and they can sue me for my Sprinter van and they can have the sculpture. So, um, yeah, and I'm I'm kind of at a different place in my life now. So, I, you know, it's weird that I have to actually think about other people thinking that way. But, um, yeah, but I mean, my my spinning death stars are, you know, it's like I try to hit like, you know, multiple things. It's spirit UAL and they're steampunk. U they've got renewable energies. There's an alternator, a chain driven alternator in the floor that powers a um that that charges our lithium batteries that then powers our LED strands that are installed in all of the facets. And it like we just Oh, and it's dangerous. Like I I was like it was I'm like it was the perfect art installation and and like I met the most incredible people. bringing this out to play people I like never asked for help but showed up day on day in day out like got their own tickets like handled s*** and these are my closest friends people that just showed up for my art project and yeah there's like we're we're bound by suffering and it's uh

yeah I I'm just like you know I I forgot the original question but like this is pretty much how Bernie man has, you know, changed my life.

Along that lines of that because I mean you're talking about my friend the name you said a friend of yours is a Chinese national. It's been like how did you meet him and how did you I mean was this through the shop or or like

uh dude no I was I like pieced out of the shop and I was going to a maker space called um the tech shop in San Jose. They had a location in San Francisco. So these were like really burner like heavy infiltrated space. It was the biggest in the country at the time.

Uh but yeah, I went there cuz I had access to CNC mills, lathe, welding equipment, water jet, like CNC routers. Like it was nuts to have access to essentially two or three million worth of equipment and not have, you know, not have to work under anybody. So that I I was freelancing it.

Mhm.

And David Han was out there desperately like this guy was like we were essentially like the bodybuilders living out of the 24-hour fitness.

Like we were there 12, 14, you know, hours taking up the tables, making messes, getting bitched out by the staff.

Um but um he and he I mean people really need to look up his sculptures. David Han sculptures like they are incredible and I would you you know, and and I would say they're heavily inspired on this like post post-apocalyptic like, you know, he he says, you know, in the future we're going to have robots that care for us, robots that will, you know, defend us and protect us and and he's making these these things that look like they move. They look like the joints and the mechanics are there, but it's stationary.

Uh, so for probably three years prior to building Maria, um, you know, he's like, "Hey, maybe you can help me like cut some stuff on the water jet and we can get this thing moving." And and I was I was I was like, "Yeah, yeah, maybe." But when I got the art grant, um I was like, "Yo, like you want to do this?" And he's like, "Yeah, I'll do whatever it takes."

And uh I was like, "All right, cool." We built it in his backyard in San Jose.

So,

yeah. Yeah. We we couldn't do a project that big in in in the maker space. We That would have been the end. of us.

So, how does the maker space work? Is it just like you can kind of I mean do you is it like a monthly thing like you like you pay a certain amount and then you can like use their facilities, you know, like storage or whatever or

Yeah. Yeah. It's a monthly membership like 100 I think tech shop was like 120 or 150. Uh you need to take a safety basic use if you want to run a 3D printer, a lathe, a welder. Um you take the safety basic use which is like another revenue stream cuz you pay 30 bucks to get certified.

Uh and then it's like just make an online reservation and it the machine's yours for you know a 2h hour or 4 hour aotment and it's uh

yeah and I you know I was in there spinning my wheels for 2020 2014 all the way to I think they they went under in 2018.

Oh okay.

And So yeah, and I was just like I was making sacred geometry sculptures. I was like CNCing like brass plaques. I was doing a bunch of metal work for Eselon Institute um where the uh the Borg does their annual retreat. So I was like you I was I was tied in on multiple ends um and trying to make money, trying to support my family, but also like let's build something crazy and uh Uh, and we got the art grant from Maria and I, the team just appeared and we built this thing out and it was uh,

it was wild.

Appeared from the space like

I mean I have I had friends from college. I had friends I had David Han from the maker space. I had homies from camp. Um, I had this guy Rich showed up That turned out to be a total disaster, but you know, God bless him for showing up.

Oh, he's going to have one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

more than one.

But, uh, we Yeah. I mean, we we we like pretty much just did this under a carport in the hills of San Jose and um shoestring budget and oh my homie, I met this guy Jay who's a podiatrist in Santa Cruz. Like, he's like, "I'm going to do your le my buddy Brian who was a battery and solar mentor, he built the batteries. Like it was like it all just came together and and then we premiered Desert Art preview which is a big San Francisco art event. So we we open the stage we've got David H sculptures on stage and after that presentation

A Bay who's a Stanford you know like technology nerd he's like I want to program this thing and

wow

and then we and then we had the team. He moved into David Hans. Like I was commuting like it it all just came together and we make it to Playa. LEDs are working. Like everything's kind of working except the computer command is not turning the motors and a bay is like, "Okay, we got a bay on it. We got a bay on it." And then this lady appears on a dragonfly art car. I still see them. They've got a couple of them and uh like they're like little two-seaters. And she comes up and says, "My husband built a mechanical centipede in 2007." And I'm like, I'm is she trolling us? Like what the hell? Like I thought I thought we were the first. Like whatever. Like we'll bring him out here. And this guy Chris shows up and he looks at our motor controller. He knows it. It's a Kelly. It's a Kelly controller. I've f***** with these things.

And he looks at our code and immediately like, "Oh, you got to put the con. You got to put the relay contact down before you send signal to the motor. It reads the resistance of the motor and then it turns the motor. We swap it out. The mo the thing's walking. We're like, "Oh my god, like it's going to work." And a bay is pushing the computer up into the belly of this thing. And we've got hot battery leads hanging out like an octopus. And it can one of those hot wires arc to our motor controller. terminal and smoke the whole thing.

Oh,

within within five minutes of like just like, you know, total joy and elation to we're f*****. Yeah, we're another controller's 30 days out.

And I remember Yeah, I remember a bay approaching me like, yo, like are are you mad? I was like I was like, no, dude. Like, what the f*** are we going to do?

What the f*** are we going to do? And

but by the end of the week, we um we got the homies together. got jumper cables and we straight shorted the motors directly to the lithium batteries and we walked this thing like 50 ft.

Yay. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we we accomplished, you know, we did the thing and we got f***** and humbled along the process and uh and it was I mean these are these are like foundational experiences for me to and

I mean it must be like an evolution of like You're understand because like what you're saying the first year you're like I'm going to get a trophy for this and then you're like yeah disappeared like yeah I did that three years ago and be like damn it but you know like you know but it's but then you realize like it's like oh

why was I putting so much stock into this you know it's just like I think you gain something which is even better which is like you met this other person who's like oh let me show you how to fix it and you're just kind of like oh so you go from just being like a to be like wow Oh, like I made like a new friend, you know, and like I learned some new s***.

Well, you know, and and yeah, Chris may have brought the first mechanical centipede to Burning Man, but he says the s*** didn't work at all. So, he said it worked on asphalt. It didn't work on Playa. So, ours worked on Playa. Um and and uh and but what I'm most proud of is the LED display that Jay got like put together. We had something like 2500 pixels or 3,000 pixels. um soldering parties um like getting these things together. It was like it was a very like high frequency. We actually had to put a PC computer inside our box to run. It's called Matrix, which is like a German like club LED thing. And like my homiey's just telling me what we got to do. I'm like, "Yeah, sure." Like, "Let's do that." And it it just created this like liquid crystallin display. That's not jittery at all. It was actually flowing up and down the centipede and it was sick.

So even if it didn't walk, I mean, it's like maybe the walking is like, okay, that's the like the the 3% on top, right? But it's like you have the 97% of like you brought it to the play, it's there. It's it's it's incredible looking. The crowd is gathering. All of the the the tripping hippies are all, you know, like I spent 12 hours here last night, man.

Well, Uh, I wasn't exactly sure how the honorarium stuff goes. Like, you know, you say you're going to deliver something and they get they cut you a check. Like, yeah. I mean, they're going to hold you.

You think that's good enough, though, right? I mean, it's like, okay, it's I don't really have any perspective. I I remember emailing Katie Hazard like, "Hey, we had a f****** electrical fire and um you know, the parts 30 days out." And she says, "It looks amazing. Like, good job."

I was like, "Okay, cool." Like, we're we're off the hook. So yeah, it's uh

also how the honorarium works. It's it's like uh they only give you like part of the money, right? And it's they're not like a fully funding it and then so you guys have to like fund raise like the the rest of it. And

yeah, we got I think we got like I think we got like 12,000. I ended up meeting a girl at who was on the art committee at Utopia and she's like your project was like second first or second off the stack of like 40 that we were, you know, I'm like, "Okay, cool." And and then she said, she asked in committee, "Can we give them more money?" But I was like, you know, I was just like, "Oh, please pick me. Please pick me." Cuz they get like 500 applications. They only award like maybe like they only fund like 25 or 30. So I'm, you know, I'm like, "Pick me." But I'm also not

Yeah. for for Burning Man Honorarium. And Yeah. Yeah. And And they're not going to fund everything. It's like you're supposed to have to fund raise half. Um, and you know, but so we were able to scrape another 10,000 out of the community. So, a total of 20,000. I probably dumped like 4,000 of my personal money into it. Like, you just lose track. Like, I had a freaking milk crate full of receipts. I never went through them. Like, you know, we're we're not going to reconcile what the f*** just happened. We just got to get there and do it and get home. home. So, yeah, it was uh

you can like would do the forensic accounting like later on like get around to that.

It never happened.

It never happened.

But yeah, so to to to we we essentially got that whole thing built for about 20 $24,000. And um I yeah, in hindsight, I probably could have asked the Borg for that much and suffered a whole lot less and um had two motor controllers in case some s*** happen. happened. But um that wasn't that wasn't our style back then.

Yeah. So was that the those few years? Was that the only time you brought it out or do you still keep bringing it out? The centipede.

I'm I'm such a fan of Merk. Oh, so I gave the centipede away last like probably like eight months ago. I literally just um I I did a

I did I think I sent you a video is pretty much like I made a video after 2024 that said, you know, Bernie man's a f****** cult was the grab. And this was

Yeah, this was like during the this the dust storm that materialized I think like Monday. It was like Monday as everyone's like packing up and our like our carport got tossed and um so and at the end of that I pretty much just like straight up can I interest anyone in a 30-foot mechanical centipede? And some guy in Grass Valley said, "Yeah." And I was like, "I will deliver this to you as long as you promise to take care of it." And he's like, "Yeah, sure." Um, so it's gone. It's It's out of my buddy's field, which feels good. I just, you know, when you're thinking about 10 body segments, the locking mechanism, the um or locks, like we're talking maybe 100 to 130 different bearings. to keep this thing going. And like that's not something I want to just tinker with. You know, it was fun to build and like proof of concept, but I

Well, as an artist, I mean, you probably like you have other ideas, right? You want to like kind of move on. I mean,

yeah. Yeah. I don't like getting bogged down doing the maintenance and trying to like, you know. Yeah. And and the centipede, it was a cool concept. And Um and I I crushed it in the artistic vision. Uh it was um you know like uh this centipede you know from the future is on ply and it's lost and doesn't really have you know you know anyone but over the course over the accumulation of interactions like you know is like his experience brightens the LEDs change and Miaata finds home on the ply and that was a metaphor for my experience.

Yeah.

Being this like lost ass kid trying to do something cool. Um and then finding out like like you're good, you're good, you know, and um so

so I I'm starting to understand what I think he did with like giving away the centipede. So it's like, oh yeah, the centipede's free, but the long-term maintenance contract.

Oh yeah, he calls you up like, "Hey, it's not working." Like, well, you know, I'm a little busy.

I mean, this is like this is mountain boy with like tractors and stuff. So, I I mean I don't doubt that he could

I don't doubt that he could figure it out. I don't think he's ever gonna find the time to do it. So, but I I I don't care. I I didn't have the heart to scrap it. Um

you know, and and

and like and I'm kind of like when I was like, "Oh, David, if you do these high-profile art projects, maybe you can like spin off some like, you know, art career, right?" Except like who the f***? Like Google's going to buy a 30-foot mechanical centipede

and put it in their corporate office. Never know.

No. No. There's Because you would you would need to have a technician to stay with it, you know, and make sure like it would work. And

you don't think it would just be like a trophy thing. They're like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's in the glass case."

Yeah. I mean, it could work as that. And the LEDs look sick. Like, yeah, that could have worked. But, um, I didn't really push that. And then Meraba is a, you know, 2,000 pounds of spinning stainless steel like, you know, You can't put that into people's park, you know, and sell it to the sell it to the city council. So, um yeah,

I see that like in San Francisco like on the waterfront, you know, like the like they've been putting sculptures out there and like Dana Albany, you know, like uh Michael

because then you're bringing it back into like the western latigious culture, you know, where every box has to be checked, every, you know, policy needs to be signed

and And like it just like no it's like it's separate like Bernie man art or at least the art that I've made is completely like it doesn't work in the city square. It couldn't.

Um so and I'm like I'm cool with that. I'm happy I did it. But you know like any thought of like flipping it for even what I put into it is you know I kind of wash those ideas away after you like

Well, city is a different kind of city square anyway. But I mean it's funny because like I keep hearing about this like there are some people well there's two sides of it like there's some artists you know who

who are looking to sell their art right and then I think there's other I've heard of people like they they go to Burning Man being like you know like oh it's like a shopping trip for them like the rich people like I like that one I'll take that one you know I mean have you kind of heard of that or experienced that at all?

Yeah I I was the I was the person who pretty much exposed Michael Banesty's sculpture importing operation.

Which one was that? The stainless steel like the large like Statue of

Liberty. Yep. All the Yeah, they've been coming since 2018. So, they're these just immaculately polished stainless steel and and it actually inspired me to remake Maraba out of stainless steel. 2018, the year of the centipede, I'm like it they had it was in every lif I find you. And it was a very heteronormative like male and a female and they're holding like face to face.

And I remember jumping up on this sculpture and just looking down the legs like where's the pit? Where's the seam? Where's the warp? And it doesn't exist. It is a perfect mirror finish, which is almost impossible to achieve. And I'm like, this is impossible. Like, like this is f****** Burning Man and someone just put, you know, 50,000 hours into fabricating the sculpture. like like so I remember going to um I remember going to like his Instagram. I was like well surely they have like an art collective or like a state-of-the-art fabrication shop and it's all these like ooh the magic is about to begin and and I'm like I was like what the f*** like what this doesn't make any sense. And then I I I make maraba in 2019 and you know it was it was a great experience. like some s*** didn't work, but it doesn't matter. It was a spectacular art installation and people enjoyed it, which is like the best feeling as an artist. Like people are on my s***, you know? They noticed.

That's the reward.

And

and then after the burn in 2019, I get a DM from this guy Andy Lou. Um, his handle was Stainless Steel Sculpture, and his profile image is him standing in front of Michael Benny's art installation from 2018. And I send him

Yeah. No, no, no, no. This was in front of the factory in China, I think. Shenzhen. And And I send him photos cuz Michael Benny went from one art art installation to two to three. Like, he keeps scaling, right? I'm like, how the f*** are they doing even more impossible work?

And I asked him, I was like, did you make this sculpture and this sculpture? He says, yes, we've made all of Michael Banesty sculptures. So then I take that to the Burning Man Facebook group because I'm a like I'm a troll. I remember that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I stir I stir the f****** pot. Um especially when I'm like this intimately like connected like if there was one person who you know had like licensed to s*** on Denasty and expose this whole operation like I was like this is me. And uh so I posted to the Facebook group and I was like this guy's a f****** con artist. And you know and it was screenshots of the messages. It was screenshots and then this guy um Dee he like this guy Dee who's worked on manbase and um he pulls up the import records and and now we get the whole picture like okay 2017 2018 and we have these escalating number of imports coming in and I'm like this guy crowdfunded his first art installation 2017 delivered something completely different and now is bankrolling his his expansion and is using Bernie man as a showroom for his art

and the community you know the community is like you know like like art art is art or it doesn't matter cuz I had an experience with that art project like you know it's like and and people are entitled to their opinions about whether they like the piece or not. I'm not like particularly a fan. I was a fan of the fabrication but it turns out that the con artist was passing that off as his own fabrication, not the actual people in China who built it.

Yeah.

And um and yeah, so people are entitled to their, you know, experience, but ultimately what comes down to like the principles, you know, decommodification, radical self-reliance, communal effort, you know, like

like what which principles does this actually exemplify? And you know, and there's like seven that just completely like no like they

the fabricators aren't participating. We're going to sell the s*** out of this thing.

Yeah. So,

no, because I remember when this this this happened and I remember like like yeah, like chiming in on on some of this stuff and I remember like like orig of two minds about it and I was like, well, yeah, I mean there are some people that have things fabricated for them and that but I think it was it was more of like I mean I don't know is the right word, you know, but it's just like you're just kind of selling it just like oh I'm the artist. like I personally made all of this but like in reality it's like ah it's some poor schlub in China and then it just like I was like well a give credit and b you know it's like how about you bring the artist from China to the play

at least at least get the artist who built the damn thing and say like you know this is something you need to be a part of

I think that he would have been celebrated you people would have been like oh yeah thank you for doing this thank you for bringing this you know now it's just like Oh, you know, you

all

and galaxy emoji and you know the magic's about to happen and and like f*** that. I don't even know if he's like spiritual or not. It might just be a facade. Like I don't I don't know. But yeah, and then now he's got his art car and he posts up in front of his art installation and they've got their drone permit and they are just selling the s*** and like that's you know that it's just plugandplay art in the most, you know, ridiculous form, the most in-your-face form because plugandplay is on a spectrum. It's not like this one camp did it wrong and now we talk s*** about them online. Like, no. Like,

we camp across people that charge like $5,000 for a hexert,

you know?

Yeah.

And like Yeah. And it's it's like

Well, it's funny cuz when people think like plugandplay, it's usually just like, oh yeah, like these kind of concierge like camps, you know, it's like, oh yeah, 50 grand or five grand or whatever, you know, so you can get like an RV and everything be all set up for you and but like I never even thought of that of like, oh yeah, yeah, like it it extends to like the the ply art installations, too. I mean, some of them, let's say.

Yeah. So, I mean, and like in the in the most roots like way to manage a camp. So, I I camp with Snafu Bar in the Puka Lounge, the shittiest hookah bar on Playa. And um you know, we have we have our camp mom, Michelle, who who is a badass and she just itemizes everything, divides it by the number of people, adds 5% like this is what it's going to cost for a U-Haul full of booze

and all the other things and and then people are more generous, you know, beyond that, but like you know, this is, you know, no one's making money here. And I think increasingly few camps, increasingly few camp leads are actually willing to do all that work and assume like all that b******* for nothing.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Which is

I mean because Bernie man's always been like a collaborative kind of group effort like from when there was like what 80 of them piling into cars and you know maybe one box truck with the man sticking out the back like like in 1990 or something. I It was all just like people kind of coming together like like a stone soup or like what you're talking about like when you were working your project like oh this guy came and did the battery, this guy came do the LEDs, you know, and and I think that's the magic that people love about it. But, you know, just this whole kind of like concierge pay for play, you know, just like, oh, you know, like you you pay 50 grand, you fly in, and then like the art barge will meet you at the airport, and then you and the models can get off the le and just be like escorted to like your RV and your Segway, you know, like like

Yeah. Well, I mean, that h I mean, it's like the projects got bigger, the associations got bigger, the hierarchies got steeper. you know, and and like so it it's like this it's like a um it's like a microcosm for, you know, the rise and fall of like civilizations where, you know, we we we all came as like just like caveman misfits with, you know, a jug of water and something and we all just kind of like,

you know, banged our stones together and made s*** work. And now you have, you know, massive camps, hundreds, if not thousands of people, infrastructure, you know, politics, personalities, who's too. And and in that, you know, people have to sacrifice their individuality to kind of fit in within within a group identity.

So, yeah. And that's and I I feel like Burning Man's operating completely unconscious of how it used to be and where we're headed. And people are like, "Oh, yeah, like I got, you know, I can get onto Mayan Warrior and party with these people or I like I know these people." And it's like that's All like great, right? But it's also eroding like this anarctic tradition that founded or birthed this entire festival.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'm like it's not like good or bad, but like

But do you think that these people who who gone for this experience you describe I mean

I don't know. I always tell people you know like I've been interviewing various people some people been doing this for like 40 years you know I mean like I say like I don't know people kind of come originally for like oh it's like it's the spectacle you know it's like oh here I heard it's a big party but the people who like come back like year after year after year like there's usually a period of about like your third year right and it's like if you don't like volunteer or or build something or or do something get involved somehow it's like after three years it's kind of like ah been there done that you know people tend to kind of like like like drift on you know but but it's the people who like get involved, you know? So, it's like you come for the spectacle, but then you stay for for something else, you know?

Yeah. I I kind of parse it out and just like there's producers and consumers of art infrastructure and culture and, you know, and I think Bernie man can you like there there's got to be a balance, you know, if if too many people consumed and not enough producers like, you know,

you know, then Then we experience scarcity, you know, and Bernie man was always premised, you know, despite being in a barren lake bed that's f***** with dust storms and heat and occasional floods, there has been relative abundance and that allows people to be cool. And when people stop bringing the art, the food, the alcohol, and people are showing up like, yeah, everything in the city was afforded to me for the expens of my ticket. Then we start entering into scarcity maybe like we get some career bike thieves like loading up a U-Haul like it's all very fragile and no one at the Borg like I know I mean Larry was a philosopher Marian is like I guess a CEO but no one's actually trying to have these conversations and acculturate people like you you are Bernie man you are coming to Bernie man and Bernie man is what you bring It's like the JFK JFK like it's not what your country can do for you, but what you could do for your country.

Mhm.

And like I mean I had this really unfortunate like uh encounter in 2019. I met this guy at a Fourth of July party. So I guess what that like seven years ago tomorrow. Um and I'm like yo like you know he he he went to the burn for the first time. I'm like oh cool. Yeah dude we we made the mechanical centipedes. Like I saw that that thing was f****** sick. I was like, "Yeah, cool." Like, "We're doing another art project." He's like I was like, "Oh, yeah." I was like I was like, "You can donate." And he's like, "Oh, I'm not going this year." I was like, "Like like you got a tech job in Silicon Valley. Like, you can throw 50 bucks to this art project and get us a tank of gas." He's like, "You guys get paid to do that."

What?

And I just f****** it was a dagger in my stomach.

You get

this is a smart ass cool dude who got brought to burn man by his friends and his colleagues had a great time probably did and left thinking that everyone was a paid staff or actor like it was a f****** Disneyland and that really just that really f****** upset me. I'm like what the f***? Like what like and so this is you know this is like how like the problem with you know it's like a erosive acculturation where one person shows up in synthetic furs and and then like that was cool and then they bring all their friends like no one's actually towing the line for like this is how things work. This is what people do to make this possible for everyone else.

But you think like this guy and his ilk like I mean like you said like he went the first year but then he was like yeah I'm not going back the next year. Like you think that he'll even come back again?

Oh no. Yeah, he he's come back. I No, he's he He's like the burner type, you know, like late 20s, early 30s, has money, lives in the Bay Area, like yeah, he's like he's going to go to Bernie man, but he ain't

he'll just keep coming back to just party and like he you know, just like no, I'm not going to get involved. I'm not going to do nothing. Like

I mean this is a thing, you know, this is like it's a real thing and that's and that's cool like like the the city can s like the city can tolerate, you know, a certain amount of that consump just pure consumption. pure unconscious consumption. Um, but the producers, you know, like when are the producers just going to say like I can't there's no reciprocity anymore.

I can't get people in camp to like do the hard things like hard.

Yeah. Like I mean I think it's like once the the percentage like when there were like 80 people going out to the playa it's like they were all were doing s***, you know? Now there's like 80,000 like a thousand times more. You know, it's like it's it's like the the proportion of the people with going around like with their hand out, you know, versus the the people like, you know, it's like once that ratio like gets to be a little too large, it's kind of like, you know, it tips the the balance, right?

Yeah. No, I I mean I I've like honestly think like I mean I've met like, you know, hundreds and if not thousands of people and it's like overwhelming for me. Like I can really like I really feel comfortable with like maybe like 40 or 50 friends and family. Like that's, you know, um and I'm like I'm like yo, like we're cool. We're all taking care of each other, but like once you start getting into these larger constructions, like how do you h how do you like I mean I think this is kind of the fundamental, you know, flaws with socialism. How do you get a collection of 300 million people to feel a for each other and act in ways that is, you know, benefits the collective and not just yourself.

Mhm.

And um you know and this is it's all an experiment like Bernie man's an experiment and we're we're trying all these different things and you know and and I I don't think it's a failed experiment you know like there's vastly more camps have gone belly up and disappeared than exist today.

Yeah. I mean it's like as they say it's an evolution like each year is different.

Yeah. Darwinism.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Well evolution.

Yeah. Yeah.

But but also it's interesting just looking at like your trajectories. It's like you know you say you first kind of even heard about Bernie Ban in like 2010 2011 and then so I don't know I I kind of look at these different like phases of the life of Bernie man. And so right around 11 or 12 like cuz yeah the last time I went regularly was I think was 2011 and that was like the first year it sold out. And then the first year you know my son like my best son was born in 2008 you and so like I I took I've been going since 96 I was like you know what I need to take some time I took 13 years off right so then I go back in 24 which is like the first year it didn't sell out you know so so that whole period was it 2011 like in 2024 I don't know that's kind of like the year the era of like of like the scarcity of tickets you know so that's when you know in order to even get a ticket it's like oh you got to be part of a theme camp that's when the city went from % theme camps, 90% open camping to 90% theme camps and 10% open. But I think since 24 it's like things have kind of shifted a little bit or or maybe they're they're kind of going in a somewhat different direction. I mean, it's not like, oh yeah, it's back like the '9s like it used to be, you know, but um I don't know. What do you think of that?

Yeah, the theme camps is I mean I it's it's great because there's some form of accountability which like I mean for better or for worse like now you have someone with from the board coming around with the clipboard and check taking photos of your front edge making sure you're like doing the things you said you would do.

Um but and it makes the burn like I mean man like I don't know if I could just go out to the burn and do open camping by myself and survive you know like really

Yeah. You know like there's like there's something about having a solid core group of like 20 people, you know, there's three of every tool, there's extra water, extra food, extra bandages, like all these Yeah. And

and that makes it more approachable.

Um I Yeah. And but it's interesting that communal effort like was that was you know when there was a 100 people like that's what just happened because

what are we doing?

Yeah.

This is what we're doing now. Um, and now you have that in, you know, smaller camp settings, but like I've seen, like I've been in a camp with like almost 50 people. There's no accountability, you know. Um, I think in in a smaller sub group of 20 to 25, I think, is the magic number.

Everyone wants

12 is good, too. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we've got we've got like 20 feet of bar that needs to be managed and, you know, We don't have open. We like it's open. It's 24/7. So yeah, it just helps to have a bunch of people like alcoholics, whatever, you know, and and like just run the camp and the solar is down. Like let's go f****** do that. Like there's so much s*** to do and and like this is

like I really leaned into this last year where like this like this is the coolest part of my burn. I just fixed this twink spike. He just, you know, his crank was just bent like 3/4 inch, you know, like he slammed it on the bike rack and he can't figure out why his bike his thing keeps derailing. And I'm like I grabbed some, you know, crescent wrench and like straightened it out for him. I was like, "Look, this is how you diagnose a problem and this is how you fix it." You know, he's like, "Oh my god, I had no idea." You know, and and I'm like I'm like, "That's cool." Like, I helped this person. We got this solar array up and and I leaned into that because I used to think of work is like, "Oh, no. We want to be out at, you know, Opulent Temple at the party." And now I realize like, "No, I just want to be of service to other people and try to u***** their burn. Like, we're doing pretty good here. We got everything we need. Like, let's help other people get unfucked."

Um, and I love it, man. I love it. I I didn't know that I loved it.

Uh,

I think another another way to look at that because I mean, you use the word like consumption before and like that kind of like really struck something because over all these years been gone like I mean okay there's a uh decommodification right you know where you're just like well you don't want to have like human interactions like moderated by like money right it's like okay yeah that's great you know but something that's like just always been kind of just left under the table or not really said which is the whole consumption thing like Bernie man is just and it's always been it's just it's an orgy of consumption you know it's when when people are leaving, you know, and they're just like, "Oh, I have too much water. I have too much beer." And they like, "Oh, leave it in a pile like for for DPW or like, you know, to people to help like to do resto or whatever. I mean, you bring like you get like a mountain of food like you're shopping and like, okay, the shopping list and it's like, oh, just grab this and just grab that." You know, like everybody brings like way too much and then like s*** gets like wasted like I don't know this like and there's kind of this other side of it, right? And then but also just like talking about like you know like like helping people like instead of like going there to consume, you know, just it's like Oh, yeah. Being like of of service,

you know?

Well, yeah. I It's like 70 I mean very like you see the dumpsters like coming out of Burning Man and people are like, "Oh my god, look at how awful these hippies like all their trash and like who has actually seen trash of a 70,000 person city in one place over the course of a week.

Yeah.

Nobody Nobody sees Nobody has

No. Yeah. It goes in the gray can and it gets picked up by a truck and then it disappears into a a a landfill. Like that's

Yeah. So no one really has like it. Yeah. And there the consumption. Yeah. The going to Walmart and buying a throwaway tent and all that stuff like Yeah. It's unfortunate, you know, but this is like I mean this is how people are trying to participate, you know, and And hopefully they do better next year. And and yeah, it's like it's wasteful. I mean, God, after the flood, like we threw away all of our like rugs and s***. Like it was like a lot of waste.

Mhm.

But you know, at the same time, like like I built like lot lifelong friends. I built a company through associations and helps with people. Uh I just got back from the Philippines last week. Uh this crew that camps with the contraptionists

like they do they do like solar dis relief installs and they're they were we were you know inviting me to go to Chuke which is um I guess it's next to Papa New Guinea and they got f***** by a typhoon. I'm like no man like I I got to do things around my house. I got animals. I got to feed like my dogs and my business and s***. And then and then the earthquake in the Philippines happened. They said we're pivoting. We're pivoting to the Philippines. And I'm like I've got family in the Philippines. I'm like okay f*** it. I'm going. Told my wife like I'm I'm going to go do this thing.

Wow.

And And it's like that so of that consumption and waste and debauchery whatever like actual good comes out of that and and to really connect the circle on that. One of my closest homies Luke who's the only person that showed up in 2019 to work on Maraba with me. He works at Tesla. He just transferred from roofing to batteries. His team was actually sending the equipment that was going to meet us in the Philippines to go install And that's what like I was just like like okay, you know, the universe is telling me something cuz there's a lot of f****** people and it's and and I've got one homie preparing equipment and then these other homies inviting me to go install it on the other side of the world. Like I'm like I'm just going to ride with that

and like Yeah. And like Yeah. So the the the consumption, the waste, I'm I'm more concerned about like cultural consumption. I'm more concerned about people that go and don't even real realize that someone sacrificed to give them a good time.

You know, that's that's really the failure in acculturation that this was all paid for by the expense of my ticket.

And um

and

what about the people who are like using it like to I don't know if you could say take advantage of it. I mean, people talk about like the Instagram models or this or that or just like oh Bernie man is just like my backdrop for like for my purposes,

your brand deals or like Yeah. I I don't know. I think like as Bernie man became more cringe over the last like couple years, I you know, it's like there's there's some kind of a movement to disparage people that go to Bernie man or essentially put them all in a box. They're the ticky the the like hippie tech bro f****** like ketamine users or something like like that don't make any sense. Like the billionaire tippies like what the f***? And um

yeah and and like so there's like this it feels like there's this like this pressure and and I talk a lot I talk a lot of s*** about Bernie man and you know and and it's mostly like kind of stuff that goes online and and like s***-talking in comment sections. It's I talk s*** about people who I talk s*** about people who are trying to inject or interject

like you know western media political narratives about ABC into the burn as opposed to realizing that this is separate. What we've built is separate.

And you know, and like

I just got tagged by some chick who's like,

you know, Kimble Musk is photographed with Marian and

I awful.

But I saw like I read into it and she was just like, "Yeah, you know."

She was like, "Yeah, I've been to Burning Man twice, okay, and and I'm outraged, you know."

Oh, I have burner friends. I have burner friends of really good burners.

I remember like last year this year, but I have other priorities. Like I'm like what the f***?

But there was somebody last year who was just like I I'm like 22 or whatever it was, you know, and he was just like I was planning on going to Burning Man this year, but after hearing what Marian like put out a call for fundraising and stuff like I'm now not going to go. I'm going to go to some other place and go camping. I was like, so you have all these like hot takes and opinions and you've never even been, you know, like

Yeah. So I' I've got I've got these hot takes and and you've been and you and you're an artist and you and you've you've contributed, you know, it's it's it's like you're you're a fixture of the community. I mean, it's different than someone who's just like eating a popsicle just being like, you know, I've been twice and you know what, I don't like this or that, you know? It's like, who cares what your opinion is?

Well, also, who cares what my opinion is? Like, I I've come, you know, like I like got a little tism and you know, so I'm like making a f****** I'm making like I I started trolling like so just like a little background like end of 2019 into 2020, um my buddy Luke who works at Tesla, he bought 40 acres up in the foothills and he had this badass rusted out truck.

It's called the F600. This turned out to be the most viewed truck restoration series on Tik Tok

amassing 100 million views.

Um like 700,000 followers on the platform. Like this s*** was absolutely f****** nuts. And that put me into a weird place where like I got to like keep this going. Like I didn't ask for this to happen, but now I'm in the situation where I have, you know, millions of people are like truck truck and

I need some

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I like, you know, I kept that thing going through co allowed me to monetize my company. Um but, you know, then I just kind of get bored with trying to please people. So then I just go talk some s*** and um

and So very like I I always try to present like a very like centrist narrative. I'm not trying to attack like left or right. I'm trying to clown on both that you know we're being sold these like

you know like scops and like like oh well if you believe this then you also believe that and it's just like no everyone's a f****** individual.

And I think the more time you spend in these Facebook like burner comment sections you just start to think that people are f****** retarded or ideologically captured. or hateful like like like back to this whole Kibble Must thing. I'm like, man, I've listened to two podcasts with that guy.

He's deep. Like this is a real human being. And now you have some chick who's been a Bernie man twice getting, you know, 250,000 views on a video saying that Kimble's a billionaire. He crossed this threshold of wealth accumulation. Therefore, he's a bad person

even though he's bankrolled. probably 10 or 20% of Bernie man's operations over the last couple years. You know, it's

and then that's a whole another discussion. Why are we relying on that much? You know, why are we relying on donors? The tickets cost f****** like $800

and there's still no money at the end of the day to handle the portaotties and the infrastructure.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I've got some ideas how you can address all that, but uh I don't know. I think that they need to kind of split their yearround operations like globally and Black Rockck City, you know? It's like Black Rockck City should be like its own like like people say it's like, "Oh, that's the Gerlac like regional, you know, like it should just be like a self- sustaining thing and and it and it and it totally can be." And then, you know, and then like the year- round operations like the the regional network and burners without borders and all these other different things. It's like you can fund raise from from billionaires or whatever. It's like, you know, and it was like, oh, yeah, it would be specifically for that. So, it's like he wouldn't kind of mix the the two pots.

Yeah. Or like take the donor money and put that towards your international missions and then keep,

you know, make sure that ticket sales preserve the event that people paid to go to.

And like it's okay to take a haircut, you know, like not every $185,000 salary is sacrosanked.

Um, and like I don't know You know, it's like how do we give people within the Bernie man organization hierarchy? How do you give them autonomy to actually freely speak their mind? You know, cuz like

yeah,

the way these things go, you have a headquarters base in San Francisco, you hire from a very select pool and then people are just terrified of being like, you know, cast as other and exised from your like awesome do nothing job at the Bernie man. headquarters. Like it's like it's just ripe with group think and you know

and and it's and and like that's not what we need. We need like if we're going to have people in charge of Bernie man culture,

we need them to be free autonomous people, you know? And I mean it's like the odds that of the like 20 founding burners from the zone trip like that any of them were qualified to be a CEO of a of a of billion dollar festival franchise or whatever they want to call it. It's like pretty unlikely,

but you know, they do have the institutional knowledge. They're not really exercising it and trying to acculturate people. They're just trying to sell tickets.

And you know, and and I hope they hear that and they know it's true. And this is kind of like the focus of a lot of my videos is, you know, it's like they know their s*** in the bed,

but

but also it's like you're not just being like a pure troll. It's like this is out of love cuz you're just This is like, you know, it's like you you love Black Rockck City. You want to see it continue like in the way that you you love it and that everybody does love it, right?

Yeah. And I'm like not trying to get invited to the f****** cheese party at Founders or First Camp. Like

you want that damn trophy. You thought you were going to get that.

Yeah. Just give me a f****** trophy and I'll shut up. Just stuff some money in the top of it, you know, and I'll shut up. But like it's like it's like come on guys. Like are we really going to run this thing off a cliff because

someone was afraid to speak up in a committee. Um, yeah, it's like Yeah, and yeah, I think Marian's doing the best that she can, but also like it's not just purely running a business. You have all of this external s***, you know, and I think it really came out during co

like, oh yeah, you know, we're going to we're going to cancel the event like, yeah, you may die. You come here on your own valition and you may die. But we're gonna cancel the event for two years because someone's grandpa grandma might get sick,

you know? Like I was like I was like so like there's no continuity and and I really wish they didn't do any of this like political like signaling

when it comes to the whole political thing. I mean because that's something that I've definitely put a lot of thought and talked to a lot of different people about like um I don't know I used to say like you know leave your politics at the gate, right? But then like I remember after talking to more people like, well, art in itself is political, right? So, I kind of amended that to be like, okay, no partisan politics, you know, like so once through like when Danger Ranger drew that line in the play and they all jumped over it, it's like when this when you're going into the zone, it's like you're you're going into somewhere new. Like we're we're creating a culture and a society that's that's separate and different from where we came from, right? And it's not it's, you know, there wasn't the intention like, well, we're going to create this like you know ultra progressive utopia or or whatever like you know pick whatever like you know like ideological like thing you want. It's like it's like no no no the magic of Bernie man is that like it's a home for everybody no matter what where you're from what color skin you have like what gender or whatever you think you are

unless you're a billionaire you know it's people are trying to draw these lines and what makes a burner like everyone's trying to project like they they try to project themselves onto Bernie man and say everyone that goes to Bernie is like me. Therefore, they believe these things that I learned on MSNBC and Fox New

s*** programming that's coming through the media and then they're trying to project that out onto Bernie man and that's like and it's like

Yeah, but you know like I realize you know it's like like what the f*** can you do? You know, it's like I I I I it's like Maybe there'll be like some cosmic awakening or like okay well maybe that was b******* or you know I don't know. I I feel like most people are are there with co but like man like those were really difficult years for me cuz I like I like lost like lifelong friends. We you know have since like made it up over a bar brawl two years ago and you know now he's my closest homie. But like people were saying these f***** up things like like canceling you or or kicking you to the curb because of some like a political opinion or something.

Well, I so I I went I went to Cancelled Man. I went to Renegade. Um and Cancelled Man brought my art car and I I you know I was like this is the f****** coolest thing ever. I met a lifelong friend Chris and his girls out there. Um they didn't know where the f*** people had a mask because there was so few people. So they parked right on like the man base center and you know a bunch of like 10 kids and some adults and all. So we're in there with our art car. They're serving us lemonade. I give the girls the art car. They disappear in my art car. I'm like, "Okay, that's fine."

Um and and I'm like I'm like, "This is the coolest thing." So, I make this video and I you know, just sync it to music. We're throwing the art car together. We're cruising around and I I I said um for those who have uh resentment towards those or like for those who have resentment towards those who saved Bernie man this year are either suffering from FOMO or completely naive of the risk factors of you know COVID 19 transmission like that's the only reason why you could hate this like you you missed out and you're pissed off or you know and and I was like this militant like just thinking like I'm going to change opinions or I'm going to you know force someone to say that they're wrong and like and then like on the backside of that I'm like walking around like having like a challenging time on psychedelics and someone recognizes me and I'm I'm like in my head thinking like, "Oh, are they friend or foe?" because I've been talking all this s***, you know? So, it's like I kind of like it's not like

it's not exactly where I wanted to be and I can't take back the things I've said.

Um, but I believed in them,

you know? I'm not pushing some f****** narrative. I actually believe that, you know, these things were corrosive to Bernie man culture. And if you did want to go

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If you wanted to risk your life and go attend, you know, Bernie man in 2020 like all the power to you cuz that is coherent like that is consistent with the culture and how it's always been

as opposed to this like you know top down virtue signaling and the Borgs and like no don't do that that could hurt someone's grandma and and I was just like you are apart from the world we are trying to create something different something separate and you know

yeah

and the Borg is you know this kind of chain to like the the dinosaur institutions where like oh well we have

you look at this like like audience kind of capture kind of thing where it's like the the the or is just kind of going along with like the like the social media like online like like sentiment

whatever the new thing is whether it's you know diversity equity inclusion like policies and and and money that's being made available through Black Rockck I don't know if any of that's happened um you know it's you know essentially people in committees saying Oh, well, it's this month, so we need to make a post like honoring these people. And it's just like just let it be cuz you have like radical like anarchist conservatives. You have like desert rats, you've got like freaking like total like you know like like you have this is this is a multicultural experiment of everyone. The second that the leader or the owner of Bernie man tries to take a position, you alienate Vasis. the community.

So just just so all y'all got to stand for is like balancing the budget, portaotties and infrastructure. You let everyone that goes to Burning Man and builds that city, we bring the culture. You put us in charge of the experiment and where the culture goes and the idea is is that the goodwill of people will like create something cool.

Yeah.

And it then there's also like people on like social media I found that you know like they just kind of push like you saying like their their personal narrative and they were just like like saying like well because I believe in this ideology it's like well then everybody else must be that way and it's like oh and even like like recently I can't remember what it was but like somebody posted they're like oh the like Brady man codes left or you know codes far left and I was like I mean I was kind of I don't know I I don't social media now looking like it's all it's just like a cesspool swamp I'm just kind of like it's not really worth my time to like wade in there anymore but I I don't know just the whole idea of like I mean you have like I said people people come from all over plays, all walks of life, you know, it's like it doesn't code left or right. It codes as human, you know, and I I think that that that was that's like the real lesson that like I've taken out of all of this is something I call the connection where it's just like

you just Bernie man it just it shreds the barriers that divide us. And then and that's what I how I see like the the 10 principles. It's like it's not a freaking dogma for life that people like you like this is like Larry have these like 10 things carved in stone you brought down off the mountain. you know, like

golden path.

No, it's it's basically it's a recipe for turning strangers into really good friends, if not family, you know, it's just like it's not the end all beall lesson of everything. It's like it's a it's a road map to get you somewhere.

I I camp I camp with people who are polar opposites. They everything that I like, they hate.

And we all recognize that we're f****** cool people and we got to sick ass bar and we're doing this together and we can be respectful like that's you know that's the experiment is like oh like oh like I mean and and I mean this was happening during like I think 2020 2021 people were like conservatives need to be banned from Bernie man because they voted in this f****** this disaster of a you know s******* and and I'm like I'm like bro like it's all a scop just you know be tolerant of the people that drank the different flavor Kool-Aid and be open to the possibility that maybe you drank the other, you know, the other Kool-Aid, you know, like and you know, and

to, you know, on the whole thing like, you know, coding left, like, you know, like this is anarchy.

This is absolute anarchy. There are no rules at Burning, man. No one's telling you how to burn. There's no authority telling you that you can or can't, you know, giving you permission or like that is a far right ideology in my opinion. Ian Rowan who yeah he would say that no it's like it's Marxist tradition or whatever communist anarchy like we've had these conversations before and they're intriguing. Um but you know like be open to the idea that like maybe this is just absent of politics like or you know all this stuff. This is just people in a simulation of freedom

and you have the freedom to do whatever you want and just try, you know, and like

human connection and freedom doesn't code left or right, you know. I mean, it's just it's just human.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, if you look at the right, you know, just like I mean, there's you could find like more connection than on the left and it's like look at like people like religions, you know, it's like and there religiosity like

or like walk into a rural walking into a rural California town and just talking to a guy at the Home Depot. Like it's different out there.

They look you in the eye and they want to know how you're doing.

And I'm like living in Santa Cruz, California and everyone's all kind of shelled up like and I'm like I'm like what? There's there's these fundamental disconnects for our culture that I think mostly explain you know

whether you drink this Kool-Aid or the other Kool-Aid. But like out at the burn it doesn't matter. And you need that redneck to fix your f****** axle cuz that s***'s broken. You know he's got a welding rig, you know? Like that's that's how we coexist. And you know, but like

yeah, the comment sections the comment section's the worst thing that ever happened to Bernie man cuz you see the worst and the most resentful and then your brain automatically assumes like that's everybody or that's you know.

Yeah. I just found for me myself personally I'm just I keep telling myself it's just like you could read it but like you get insensed whatever go out touch some grass whatever they say you know but like just like like don't Don't get triggered by like don't don't fall for it, you know, cuz it's like I can go to the playa and I can have these real human connections with people and I know it's like yeah yeah yeah but on Reddit yeah but on Facebook yeah but in the comment sections and said this is like you know what that's over there I'm here

and just this whole thing of just like oh you don't agree with me so then you're not I'm just you're you're canceled you like you know like you're not I'm not going to have no connection with you like that is utterly unburning man where it's just like No, no. Doesn't matter like how opposite we are. It's like we have a connection, right?

Yeah. And and you have these conversations and people always bring up the, you know, paradox of tolerance where if you to if if tolerant people tolerate intolerance and the intolerant people will kill them. Therefore, we need to be intolerant and before they kill us.

But it's a slippery slope. Like we mind f***.

Yeah. We've seen this a dozen times.

Yeah. You say, "Oh, we ize their own intolerance because the people that they are tolerating might kill them.

Yeah. But then people say things like like it's like oh yeah we're tolerant every but like but you know we're not but we're intolerant of like Nazis. Okay. We're like okay okay sure if someone's going to come up with like a literal swastika on their arm you know it's like yeah sure but then what happens we're just going like oh you don't agree with me in this issue you're a Nazi. And it's like wait wait wait wait like so you've now the threshold is just like utterly shifted. You know, so it's like so this whole like we don't we're intolerant of of intolerance. It's just like and and here's an example of it and you know what and who doesn't agree with me is this far like extreme and it's like yeah I don't know it's it's community

I I hope the experiment you know we can evolve behind beyond that and you know it's not there's always going to be a critical number of people who are you know products of the programming that's been coming through the media

and you know and maybe they'll you know have an experience that changes their mind or maybe they'll want to tune out like I you know I don't know but um I'm more becoming accepting of the fact that I'm not going to change my homie Mike Paresi

in person I love this guy

on Facebook it's like over the top and you know um and like I I'm I'm not not going to change him. You know, we're just not good fa we're great friends. We're not good Facebook friends. And and and

let him let him be. You know, it's like maybe at some point he'll kind of come to the same realization and we're just like why am I bothering with all the stupid like fighting online? It's this cesspool of social media. It's like my life here right now with my friends and family. It's like this is good, right? I mean this this virtual thing is like

Yeah. But being feeling so vindicated and hate ing other people because you say they hated first is just such a f****** travesty.

And it's so unburned, man, too. It's just it's like why are we talking about hating each other

and then you put it on social media for virtue?

Yeah. You know, look at me.

And

yeah, yeah. So that's like that's Yeah, man. It's um but you know, on a positive note, like I think people always say Bernie man's like, "Oh, Bernie man's changed. Bernie man says, "I think f****** Bernie man's f****** cool."

Here's the thing.

From my bar, from my vantage point, I think Bernie man's f****** cool. And I'm going back. We're going to build a sick ass deployable solar array this year. We're going to try to run all of our ice, you know, out off of that solar array. Like, like, this is what excites me.

Not having to bike down to Arctica to get, you know, a ration, two bags of ice so that we can go through it in two hours. Like,

like Yeah. So, I'm I'm excited. I'm excited for the future and I hope that the things we build out in Burning Man can then cross over and actually help like

Yeah. Yeah.

makes make society more livable for everyone else.

Yeah. I mean, like for me, like I said, like I took 13 years off and I came back and people were like, well, what's changed? You know, it's like, well, you could look at some small things. It's like there's not as many smokers like I don't see any cigarette butts anymore. There's a lot more LEDs, no more like like glow sticks and like blah blah blah. But then, you know, some people, especially oldtime burners who are like it's like, oh yeah, not the same as it was. It's like you know what the core central like what we all the stuff we're talking about it's still there you know it's like the the communities the connection the the the communal like working together to like overcome the the the rains and the the the dust and you know the the the controller is f***** now you got to you know someone comes up I mean it's like it's that's the magic that keeps us coming back and that's always been there was like yeah there's going to be like billionaires in their like rows of RVs you know It's like, who cares? There's going to be people talking on social media, say things you don't like. Who cares, you know? It's like, maybe at some point they'll come around, you know? But, you know, until then, it's like, here, I'm raising a glass to you and you know what? Come here and I'll give you a drink.

It's such a stupid thing to I mean, I I've been in my head about these things. Like, you know, it's like just like I think I think they're all upset that their polyamory camp expanded 10 years ago and they've never been accepted back, you know, like I don't who the f*** knows the reasons like, but you know, I suspect a lot of the people talking s*** in the comment sections haven't been to Bernie man or haven't been in five or 10 years, you know, and it's not Bernie man they're upset with. It's about their, you know, they got kicked out of a camp, they got too drunk, they grabbed somebody's ass, like, you know, I think, you know, and and it's Yeah, it's, you know, you know, for as inclusive as we are, No, this is kind of a self- selecting community

and and uh yeah, I think people fall off and then they get hurt and they just talk s***.

Yeah.

So,

I mean, I think that the comments that really bite that I see is is more of like a a long time person or somebody like you might like recognize and it's like, oh, you know, wow, they're this person who's been around, you know, has made these art pieces that like or I know them or whatever, you know, it's like it's like, oh, I I tend to listen more than someone who's like, you know, a highly po polished like you know someone who's like oh I have like hundreds of thousands of followers and it's like I'm you know they're just like there's some cute looking 20some girl you know who's like I've been twice and let me know let me tell you I've got some opinions I'm like uh what yeah and I mean the I think the snark against new newbies who are coming from out of country and are just f****** clueless. I want to attend Bernie man festival. It's on my bucket list. Like the snark I'm just tired of it. I'm just like, "Okay, yeah, you can destroy this person and how naive they are, but you were that person." Like,

you were once that person you had no f****** clue

and now like this is my turn to s*** on this person that thinks they want to go to Burning Man and then they're like, I don't want to go.

I mean, they expecting every person who goes to Burning Man for the first time is going to hit the ground being just like I I have memorized all the 10 principles. Like, look at my arm. Like, I have all the the the tattoos. It's like what the f***, you know? It's like just come.

Even that's like a mental illness where people are like, "Oh yeah, a burner's got to do this, a burner's got to do that." Like, you know, if I if if I'm going to be a burner, then I need to like, you know, do all these things. And it's like they got written down on their f****** hand. I was like, "No, just be yourself."

Like, f****** cult.

Be yourself.

Be yourself. All right. Well, man, I really enjoyed this. Anything else you want to talk about?

Well, we can talk like afterwards, but u we're going about an hour and a half now, but uh yeah, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview.

Rad. All right, Andy. Can't wait to see this.

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