EP 89 Roxane Jessi

Episode 89 with Roxane Jessi is out now! Meet Roxane Jessi, a world traveler and author of Once Upon a Time in the Dust, who documents her global exploration of the Burning Man subculture. After a transformative first experience at the 2015 Black Rock City event, Jessi became obsessed with how the movement's ten principles manifest across different international contexts. She embarked on a spontaneous and ambitious "burn year," visiting seven regional events on five continents—including Africa Burn and Midburn—to study how diverse cultures and environments shape community building and creative expression. Roxane emphasizes that the "magic" of these gatherings lies not in the Nevada desert specifically, but in the participatory spirit and lack of commercial exchange that fosters cross-generational connection. She details the impact of Burning Man on her professional life as a consultant for international development nonprofits, illustrating how the culture's ethos of artistic healing and social action extends far beyond the temporary festival sites.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. that world traveler. Famous world traveler. No, no, it's that. Andy, today our guest is an actual real world traveler, Roxan Jesse. Welcome.

Thanks very much, Andy. Happy to to be here and finally connect.

Yeah. So, Roxan is uh the author of Once Upon the Time in the Dust. Hopefully, this will show up.

Yeah, I can see it clearly.

Yeah. Doesn't show up backwards to you, does it?

No.

Yeah. So yeah, I loved your book. Uh so for people who haven't read it yet, you should go out and get it right now because it's a really amazing book. Roxan travels around the world and has gone to like a many regional events and uh I'm sure we'll we'll talk about a lot of because a lot of what you describe and and the experiences you had it those mirror like many conversations I've had with with many different people all over the world. But I don't want to I wanted to to get your take. I don't want to like put words in your mouth. So you'll tell me. So anyway, let's let's we'll start in the beginning. Um how did you even like what was the first time you even heard of Burning Man?

Yeah. So I have to cast my mind back a few years now. Um but I first went to Burning Man the Black Rock City event

in 2015.

Oh, okay.

So yeah, it's been 11 years I guess at this at this point. Um, I'd heard of it a couple of years before, but at the time, you know, we didn't have Instagram. We didn't have all these pictures of Burning Man like we do flooding our screens now.

Um, so, you know, I heard about this event in the desert, but I really wasn't sure what it was all about. And when I decided to go in 2015, um, I had really no expectations. I hadn't done any research. I hadn't checked online what this event really was about. I hadn't seen, you know, as I said, I hadn't seen many pictures about it. So, yeah, I mean, I like surprises. So, I I sort of arrived there quite fresh and with nothing no preconceived ideas about

What was the uh the inspiration? I mean, you're just a a world traveler and this is just like yet another thing to try or was this something that you've been wanting to do for like a long time? time or

Yeah, my my my boyfriend wanted to go.

Uhhuh.

So, I kind of tagged along with him. He works in the the the music industry and he was intrigued by this by this event and I thought, you know, why why not? So, yeah, we we booked the flights and um arrived in the in the desert. And

And where were you coming from?

From um from London. We were living in the UK at the time.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was just the two of you guys and you were just like, let's just go.

So, you know, it was the two of us and then we found um some other friends of friends who were going and so we joined them in the in this adventure. They had um

rented an RV. So, you know, that that was I did two years with a with an RV and the rest camping, but they had rented an RV that year. And so, yeah, I mean, it was a bit spurof the- moment. We didn't plan it months ahead and prepare and all of this. Um, and you know, I'm I'm I'm quite spontaneous with things. So, and this was one of these spontaneous things that I decided to go to. And so, when I arrived on Plyier, I thought, what is this place? It was it was a very, very dusty year. I don't know if you went in 2015.

No, I

Yeah, but during the day there was constant white outs. So, you know, almost every day that I that I was there. So, we arrived and there was a white out. Um and uh so I was like a little bit overwhelmed and I thought what you know we've come all this way to be in this white out and I didn't get it you know the first for the first uh the the first day, the first afternoon, and we were even thinking maybe we're going to have to leave this place, you know, because it was very extreme with the dust and everything.

Um,

and then, uh, that night we were getting changed and the dust had settled and then got on our bikes and rode out and I turned this corner and I just saw the plier with all of those unbelievable lights. I mean, the whole thing was just, you know, like pang.

So, like the the the dust, the mists kind of parted and you were like

it it had planted and then all of the lights had come on and the city was just buzzing and suddenly I I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it and suddenly I was like, "Okay, yeah, maybe maybe there is something to this thing." Uh, yeah. Cuz I could see, you know, you show up and it's it's just white out and you're in your RV and people like, "Yeah, no, you got to shelter in place and you're just like, why did I fly like halfway across the globe and they drove through the desert and like I got to stay in this this box?"

Yeah. Yeah. And and because I hadn't really seen pictures or anything of the event, I just had no idea what it really looked like.

Mhm.

So then the first moment that I saw the the plier lit up like that was a huge impact because you I mean these days people who arrive for the first time in Black Rock City unless you live in a in a shelter underground chances are you'll have seen videos or pictures or that have given you some idea of what to expect.

Yeah.

When you arrive there and you don't know

it's quite impressive.

Well, like you said like there wasn't really Instagram and stuff like back or maybe there weren't so many people I mean, not not like nowadays, but I mean, when I first went in 96, it was it was like a a photograph or um a Xerox like like survival guide and it was just the directions and it was like, "Yeah, you drive six hours and you go off to the desert." And

I mean, I had we had no idea what this thing was. It was just like ah just some adventure going to go with my brother and I'm used to camping, you know. But yeah, I'm always kind of intrigued with like when people like when you have like that first kind of glimpse at it and you're just kind of like ah

exciting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so so you and your boyfriend and then you camp with some friends too like like you all went in like an RV together.

I mean we didn't know them. They were sort of friends of friends but now I mean now they're very good friends.

But yeah we we joined this this RV cuz we thought that's that's what you do. And um Um, yeah. And then we spent that whole week just exploring. Uh, and as I said, it was pretty much dusty every day, like dust out every day. But by the end of the week, we've just

wrapped ourselves as best as we could and just headed out into the dust and we're just lost in this exploration in this bizarre world.

But you must have had some preparation. I mean, did you read like the survival guy? I mean, he must have known it just like, "Oh, okay. I must have like goggles or or dust mask or something."

That Yeah, I had I bought goggles and face masks cuz I had a a friend who had gone

a few years ago and she had said you need goggles, uh, mask, you need a bike, things like that. So, I knew like the basics,

but bomb.

Yeah. But I wasn't very well prepared and I hadn't done research in to to look at pictures and things like that. And I think, you know, part of it was also on purpose that I didn't want to ruin that

Yeah. experience.

Well, also I I don't know. I think like you said, like there there's there's a thing about doing too much research.

I think, you know, like I it's it's amazing to me that like people coming for the first time and like they have everything all dialed in and they they all have like the the black crates with the yellow tops and you know, and I'm like How did you know how to do this or that? I mean, there's a certain part of it of just kind of stumbling through it and like learning for yourself and like, oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, when you went, as you said, there was you you didn't know at all what to expect, right?

No.

You just probably showed up, got a ticket at the gate, and

actually Well, there wasn't really a gate. Well, okay. Well, back then It was like you get off the blacktop, you you you hit the playa and then there was a guy in a little shack and he was like point your compass at this such and such a degrees and go 12 miles and you go that way and we're like okay and we started driving and I looked at my brother and I was like did you bring a compass? And he was like no did did you bring a compass? So we're like uh you know so we're like well let's just follow the car. And then the cars were just speeding along and then it was just white out like you couldn't see anything. So we just were like well let's go outside. of the line of cars and we'll just kind of follow them along. Everybody did the same thing. So it was just like just scattered like everyone just like split off and so we we basically got lost in the we just like went and went and went and um if I think it for most people unless you go to like fourth play or you go to like Renegade Burn or something like that, I think not a lot of people like actually experience like the the actual open playa like if you get far enough out there. It's like the the heat of the heat mirage.

It's like 360°. It's like it's like you see like the ply down below and the mountains up above and then it's just like this silvery mirror thing like all around and it's beautiful. But um it could be kind of scary too cuz you're just like where where am I?

Yeah. Yeah. I I I saw that when I went to Fly Ranch once and then we drove out to the Ply Yeah. And as you say, it's

Yeah. It's weird to see it as a complete vast expanse of nothingness, right?

Yeah.

And you can see how you get can get lost there and in trouble pretty quickly if you don't have a plan.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

So, um

so yeah, so your first year you flew in from England and um but and did you like when you left were you like making plans to come back? already or

No, I was I was completely blown away.

I mean, after that first vision of the city,

I lost to this thing. Yeah. I just I knew it that was it. I became obsessed, you know, to be there witnessing the world's largest outdoor museum in full lights in front of you and to know that this has been created by the participants and it's just people that have led their creativity flow and to be able to interact with art in a way that you just can't in a museum, right? Or

Oh, yeah. Normal life situation.

Like, don't touch that. Don't get too close. Don't climb on it.

Don't touch that. And and you know, also there there's something that happens when you don't have money exchange hands, you know, for for a week. Um there was another thing that I thought was incredible about the burn that I hadn't seen so much before, which was the fact that there was people from all generations interacting, right? You can be talking to someone who's uh 15 or you can be talking to someone who's 85. Um, and there's no barriers. And I think actually in in in modern life, there's a lot of barriers between between generations. And and just talking to strangers is is uh is is not so easy to do, right? Especially in in a country like the like England where I was living, you know, there's there's not much uh interaction there. I mean, you can sit on your phone and the on the tube and which is the subway in the US

and just never never speak to a soul.

So, it was just a lot of different things that were lining up that were blowing my mind. Right.

So, when you came back. Were you like uh we on the tube? Were you just like like look over somebody like, "Hi, how's it going?" That's a nice book you're reading.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, when you come back, you come back to the default world and you have to slot back in, right? Otherwise, people will look at you funny.

Yeah.

Especially in Europe. I think in the US you have a little bit more flexibility with that. You know, the you're more open generally. But yeah, know in the UK you just kind of keep to yourself. Um but yeah, I came back and um I had to sit I was working at the time but I was also uh finishing this masters. I had to sit this exam two weeks later and then I was due to go to um to Zimbabwe where I was uh cuz I I work in international development and I had a project out in in Zimbabwe and so

I decided that I would extend my time in Zimbabwe so that uh I wouldn't have to sit in an office. I mean it completely sort of started changing my my mindset. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I uh

the whole like decompression kind of thing. Yeah. Like coming back and just sort of Yeah. slotting this experience like into your regular life, you know, like how do you fit this square peg in this round hole, you know, and

Yeah. Yeah. You know how they say don't divorce your parakeet, right? There's this famous

Montipython thing or it kind of sounds a bit Montipython, but there's there's this um I think it was someone who wrote an an article from the burn community about when you come back to your default life, don't divorce your parakeet. As in like don't make radical changes to your life, right? Like don't leave your it's the kind of don't leave your wife, don't leave your job, don't leave it all behind within the first month of coming back until you settled.

I think for me when I came back like I basically kind of just poisoned my nap wife like by just incessantly talking about it. It was like every second and third word was just like I went to this place this burning man Bernie man, Bernie man, Bernie man, Bernie man, Bernie, you know, and after like, you know, half an hour, she's like, "Okay." And after a couple hours, it's like, "Okay, you can stop talking about it." And then like a day later, it was just like, "I don't want to hear anymore about this crazy thing."

Yeah. Fair enough.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, did you make plans to go back again or were you just kind of like, "Ah, well, uh, one and done or

So, I wanted to go back again. And but it was more that I already started wanting out of the life that I was living right in in London and the full-time job and so on and being stuck in the city.

So then I as I said I decided to stay in Zimbabwe uh for was supposed to go out for a month or two but stayed for for six months. So I was already kind of starting to unravel the fabric of my life and yeah like move away from uh that London London existence right it's sort of

Did your boyfriend go with you too or or were was that another change

that was another change

that was another change fairly soon after I mean I we I I left and then we eventually got back together but yeah there was a point of let me break everything down that Yeah. that that uh that was in my old life, let's say.

Yeah. Cuz that's something another interesting thing like I don't know. I mean, a lot of people experience not a lot of people have like talked about it on my show, but it's just like relationships and the playa, you know, I' I've often heard people say this is like don't ever go to Bernie man with your significant other because

and also I've known people who've like I it's like that old TV show from the 70s, the love boat, you know, where like people just I don't know. It's like Love Island or something. You It's like they they they meet and like they meet somebody on Sunday and then they're just like we're getting married on Wednesday, you know, and and then by like Thursday or Friday they're just like I never want to talk to that person ever again.

Yeah. Yeah. It's strong strong emotions in in difficult environments.

Yeah.

Yeah. But it makes like incredible conction. connections like between people too, you know, and

definitely definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. And one of the other thing like um in terms of like strong connections with people like uh

I don't know I'm sure you've had this experience like you you make friends with people that it's like you only see there you know or it's just like so like once a year you know it's like you never see them like ever again or any other place but and then you see them a year or two three years later whatever and then you're just thick as thieves you know like Hey, you know, like my sister, you know, like

Yeah. Yeah. Like-minded people.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, I then I, as I mentioned, I was living in Zimbabwe for for some time and then I uh found out that there was an Africa burn, right? And I hadn't realized that there was any other burns outside of the Black Rock City event.

Okay. man was just in the US, just this Nevada event. And then I found out about the regionals. Um, and because I was in Africa at the at the time.

Mhm.

And Zimbabwe is just next door to to South Africa, uh, I ended up very last minute again. I think it was a few days before the actual event that I found out about Africa burn

and was put in touch with some people who were camping there. Again, I didn't I didn't know them. And 4 days later, I was flying to South Africa, buying stuff and and hitting that that

that road uh to the Tangwa desert. Yeah.

Quite adventurous.

Yeah. Yeah. As I I mentioned, this is how I live my my life. Yeah,

I like spontaneity.

Yeah, but I don't know. I think there's probably a lot of people, you know, who are just sort of like stuck in their shell. They're just like, "Oh, I I couldn't I couldn't possibly do that, you know." But

well, if you're living out in Zimbabwe already, I think that takes a certain type of person.

Yeah.

And uh so yeah. So, uh

Well, how did you get in touch with the people?

Well, how did you get in touch with the the people who were camping at Africa burn then

friends.

They were friends of friends.

So I knew someone in Zimbabwe that knew someone who was going to Africa burn who potentially had space in their camp and could potentially help out with giving me a lift to the event. So

yeah,

and it all happened very quickly and spont ously uh and yeah, I mean they needed some extra hands to help out with the camp build and so on. So I said, "Yeah, sure. I will I will do that." And uh yeah, a few days later I was I was out in the in the Keru, which is the the desert where they do Africa burn.

Mhm.

And it's very beautiful. I'm not sure whether you've ever been to any other regionals, but Well, I went to um Unscrews to the Santa Cruz one like in this May.

Yeah. Um No, I started the Hawaii regional here like in 2002. I retired from doing that 2012 like Yeah. So, we had our own events here like out in the like the jungle like on the the big island. Um like that was like years and years ago. But uh but yeah, I haven't really been to like other regionals until like just this this year when we went to unscrews and uh yeah that was wonderful. I mean um so one of the things I was doing was uh

for so for the show I'm I'm not only I do these like more like longer like long form interviews but one of something I started in the playa last year which we also did at unscrews was um this thing called shadow shorts where I'm just kind of getting just random participants and I said I'm like okay you have five minutes tell me Bernie man's influence on your life. go, you know, and so it's like every other Friday on my feed, it's like, you know, the people's story and they're just incredible stories from just just ordinary people, you know, and yeah, a lot of similar themes kind of kind of come across, you know, but I' I'm definitely now thinking that I want to like I want to go to like a number of different regionals and and go and just like record people and just like wander around and just be like, "Hey, you know, like what's what's what's your experience? Yeah. So you first go to the ply in 2015. So you go to Africa burn. Was that the same year or is it 2016 or

that was 2016.

Ah okay.

So that was that was 2016. So when I arrived at the at the plier in Africa burn again I I didn't really know what to what to expect. Um and it's a much smaller event. I mean it's uh I think it's when I went it was H how many people were there? I think it was like 9,000, right? So

Well, it's funny. It's smaller.

That's pretty That's pretty big. Like

much smaller than Black Rock City, though, right? Which is 80,000.

Yeah. I think a lot of regional events are like much smaller

other event that that's the second biggest event, right?

I thought Africa Burn is other than Black Rock City. It's like it is the biggest. Right. I think um

yeah

uh Midburn, right, is probably like the second biggest uh Africa burn, right?

Yeah. Uh so there was a time when Midburn and Africa burn were the same size, but now Midburn, I think, is about 7,000. They made it a little bit smaller.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tough tough times.

Yeah. Just to find a a venue that accommodates Yeah. like a a site that accommodates a lot of people in in a small country is harder.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny cuz like here in Hawaii, I mean, you just that was like our biggest problem was actually getting someone to rent us land. I mean, you can like just wander around and see like, oh, that would be suitable, that would be suitable, that would be suitable, you know, but the land owners are either like the US military or or the state of Hawaii or like these large land owners like Dole Castle cooking, you know, they help in like the thousands and thousands of like, you know, square acres, you know, but um they're just not interested, you know. And I could see also like in Israel, too, you know, people just being like, "Wait, what do you do?" You know, and then they look up Burning Man, they see videos of it and they're just like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not doing that here. No, no."

So, um challenging.

So, did you go back to Burning Man 2016 or or did you like or did you travel around at different or when did your traveling around to different regionals like after Africa burns and that kind of start?

So I I think that I had a bit of a light bulb moment when I was at Africa burn

because I thought what was magical about the burn I thought well maybe that's just also the setting of of Black Rock City being in the desert the dust and all that comes with with it, right?

But then I had an equally unbelievable strong experience when I was at Africaburn, which is completely different side um much smaller, right, comparatively to to Black Rock City. And I was seeing the people around me having transformational experiences as well. So that got me thinking, well, Again, it's not the Black Rock City, Nevada desert that's the magical thing. It's there's something about this community and the principles that it lives by

Mhm.

that is allowing people to have these very different experiences to what they have in their normal lives, right? And is bringing magic to them.

So I thought, well, if there's magic here and there's magic there, then is there magic everywhere right across

the different the different regionals? And so I think it was the like the last my last night at Africa Burn, I thought, well, how how incredible would it be to research this movement, you know, and how it manifests across the world, right? Not just Black Crook City, not just Africa. burn, but what about some of these smaller events? What about

um

events in in Asia, events all over the world? And so I thought, yeah, I'm going to go to all the regionals, right? But at that point, I had no idea that how extensive the regional network was. There's a there's about a hundred regionals, so this is not doable, right? Um I mean, it could be doable, but it would need the next like 20 years or

resources. I don't have a huge, you know, Alibaba's cave of

I mean if you went to

yeah like four or five a year in the next 20 years or so you you can go to every single one.

But but then what I wanted to do was to go in one year so that I would get a snapshot of these different uh communities at the same moment in in in the world, right? To

be able to not compare and contrast, but just to have that vision of how these different communities are um interacting and built and creating themselves at the same point in time. Is that

it's also like you're talking about

like a kind of study like a anthropological study in a way. Yeah,

right.

How do people gather around these set of principles uh in very different settings around the world?

How does art then manifest itself?

Um how does it change people? And I felt like doing that in a year would bring up more interesting comparisons than if say I did it, you know, one year and then 10 years later.

Yeah.

To to the same to another event,

right? Because then

the world has changed. The way we gather is changing all the time. Art is changing. I mean, as we can see, right, the world now is very different than it was 10 years ago.

Yeah. Well, it's also, if you look at it almost like like a like a a sampler platter or buffet of all these different things, it's like you could try like one thing one day and then go back to a different restaurant a week later, you know, but but if you know like over some long period of time, but yeah, and I love how it's like yeah, you can you could see like how are things different and how are things the same

and also Yeah. just and just like the different uh environments and different cultures, you know, it's like like

like I said like there's there's the same kind of core to it, but like how does like the expression change?

Yeah.

Yeah. So, how did you pick like where you going to go?

Well, so it was it was a it was not an immediate process, right? Because I think it took me about a year to really work on this idea and plan out this journey if I was going to do it.

Um, as I said, I mean, I was working full-time in an office at that time and so I had to leave that.

Yeah. How do you do that?

Working remotely. Yeah,

start working remotely. But then so as I as I'd said I thought I'll go to all the regionals and then I quickly realized that that's not possible. So to get that snapshot I decided okay I should go to one burn per continent. Uh and can I do that in a year? And then logistically I looked at the dates of these different events and sketched out what a year's plan would look like if I went to seven regional burns in a year. And so that's what I ended up doing. And the way that it it happened is that the first six events I went to were almost like a month all each of them were like a month apart or less.

So it was a very intense start. to this to this year. Um,

and you had a job that was like enabled you to

like work remotely, right?

Well, I I I left the job that I had and then I started working as a consultant. So, I took on like project work, but I was traveling, working, writing at all at the same time. So, it was it was quite an intense year as you can imag. Imagine.

And you did all by yourself or do you have anybody like accompanying you or helping you?

Uh, no, no, no. I

Wow.

I just reached out to people through Facebook. Um, joined camps that way and that's a wonderful thing because people are very welcoming in the the the burn community. So yeah, when I reached out to people, explained what I was doing, said I want to join your camp, uh, people were like, "Yeah, welcoming." And then

you explained your project to them.

I would explain the project. I would explain what I'm what I want to do. And um I would obviously find a camp that uh resonated with my ethos, I suppose.

Mhm.

And uh and yeah, it all sort of came together. But I so I started in uh in Argentina in 20 year was in 20 2018 to 2019 I did it.

Okay.

Right. And so I started in Argentina in April. Then I did Midburn. Uh Africa burn. Then I did Nowhere in Spain. Um Black Rock City, Japan Burn and then Australia in Perth. one.

Yeah. So, that was all within the the space of of a year. Yeah. And it was all planned out so that I could do it logistically

with with those events because of course I could have picked other events uh within those continents, but that was what worked logistically. Yeah. I had to find ones that were not on the same dates, obviously. Oh yeah. Yeah. Especially like the the kind of like the middle of the year like summer time in northern hemisphere. I think it's like most of the things are take place around then. Right.

Especially in Europe there are many many burns,

right? Yeah. In in in South America there aren't that many.

Yeah.

Really Fuego Australian in in Argentina is one of the only official ones. Uh because of the context. It's there are things at play like security uh these sorts of things that mean that doing an setting up an event out in a field uh is actually complicated in some of these these countries. So yeah, Argentina is relatively safe.

They have wonder if like culturally wise, you know, like if there certain places like you said like South America It's just kind of different or people would like like you're saying like land owner like wouldn't rent to you like you after like looking at YouTube videos of like what happens in Black Rock City or something like no no no we're not doing that here you know.

Yeah. But I think trying to do an event like that in um El Salvador or Ecuador, you can imagine that it would have different challenges to doing it in Argentina or the US, right?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

The ju just the way that societyy's set up there is is is is different.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. I mean, also I'm sure there's just different parts of the world where there's probably more like maybe the society culture is a little more like religious or you know, I mean, South America maybe more Christian, you know, maybe it's like in the Middle East maybe like like more Muslim. I mean I know that there's like a India regional or something you know but

it's very small. It's very India regional and it's surprising right in a

in a country that has so many people right the most populous country in the world

and they have some amazing festivals there too.

They have amazing festivals but the principle of um participation and and and and actually doing things for themselves,

is more at odds with the Indian way,

right? I I mean I say this not in a uh judgmental way but in

outsiders perspective

from an outsider's perspective right but they they they they have a lot of um

of help in India Mhm.

Right. There's Yeah. So the the the to be out and building and um cooking and and and and so on can be uh an experience that a lot of people are not used to in in especially in a in a festival setting where they expect services to be provided.

Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. So in Europe I mean, know I'm not sure if like how many events like the ones I've heard was like there's nowhere, right? Um I know like Northern Europe, what's it called now? Um

Finland.

Yeah. Yeah. Like Germany have I know that

Germany has a lot of different burns.

Yeah. Are they small?

They have over 10.

Yeah. Yeah. They have smaller events. They're like a federation of events, right? But Now, now, now you then we're getting into how each of these burns are a reflection of that country's culture.

Yeah.

Right. And in in in Germany, they have different bones for all of their different states.

Huh. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. So, they have they have quite a few of them, but there's a good communication between all of them. Right. They they talk, they plan together, etc.

Are they like spaced out? Could you like do like do all the Germany ones, but like, you know, like once each one each month or something?

Yeah, I think they're pretty evenly spaced out. I don't know to be fair if there's overlap, but I do know that there's quite a few.

Oh,

there's quite a few in Germany.

Yeah, I remember looking at the there was an Italian one that was it was very like it was like centered on food and I was like, "Oo, that sounds interesting." Like,

yeah, they they have a Greek one that's uh on a boat.

Really?

Yeah. Goes around the islands.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole whole world of experiences out there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I even heard like um someone did some little burn or something like in Antarctica or something. Yeah,

I probably just

Yeah, I'm sure it's just

not an official event, but but it was like a small burner gathering.

Yeah, a couple of researchers who are just like, "You're a burner. I'm a burner." Yeah, let's burn something here. You

That's it. I I never I never got to go to that one. That was the missing continent.

Ah, sensing a sequel book.

Well, yeah, who know? I think I could probably write a a book in itself. about just that experience.

It was cold and dark.

It was It was cold, but it was warm in my heart.

Yeah. Wow. Um

there may be one in space next. Who knows?

Yeah. Well, Elon Musk will make one on Mars.

I don't know. I'm sure he's not everyone's favorite person. Um so Have you like been going back to Black Rockck City as as well or like or or like in recent years or the past couple years?

Yeah. So when I so I I when I was traveling to the the seven the seven different burns. I mean Black Rock City was one of the chapters.

Yeah.

In in the book. So I did go back as the the US burn that that I went to. Um and then Uh I finished this what I call my burn year and suddenly the world went into pandemic state, right?

Yeah.

So it was was very strange because I'd had one of the most extreme years of my life probably.

Yeah.

Going around all of these different uh events, meeting people, creating community, not standing still, um being blown away by art, community, culture, uh, and just being fascinated really by this by this movement. And then suddenly we just couldn't gather anymore. So it would felt almost like I was writing a a history book about about how we used to gather, how we used to create community because at that point we didn't know whether we would ever burn again or ever burn in the same way? Ever not wear masks again? So there was a lot of these these questions. So after that very intense year um there were two years where there were no burns,

right?

Yeah.

And so the first burn that I went to after the pandemic was I think it was Africa burn that I went back to.

Oh, okay. Right. And then when the world started again, then I had another uh uh what would you call it? Like a binge of other birds. I just I just basically really needed

was it the pent up kind of

to get Yeah. to get out of the the the pandemic shell and get back out there. And then I went to to Africa bird. I went to nowhere again. I went to Love Burn in Miami and I and I started going to a lot of these events again. Right. Just

So, how did you spend COVID? Like what where were you cooped up or

uh so CO was some people say they had a wonderful COVID experience. Uh yeah, time to reflect and learn the guitar or whatever. My my COVID experience wasn't wasn't great. Uh I was so I live in Spain. Um but the day before the uh the lockdown,

I was walking down the stairs and I broke my ankle.

Oh.

Uh and uh I was living at the time on the fourth floor of this apartment building. I had no lift elevator

and so I thought, "Oh, well that's not going to be great." And so I flew to spend the the pandemic with my parents. I was staying in in in my parents live in in France. I'm half English, half French. So, I I moved uh back back to their their home. Um and then uh my father was was was ill. He was going through chemotherapy at that time. So, it was just

it it was quite a quite an intense uh quite an intense time and quite a contrast to the year that I had just had, you know, flying around the place and and so on. This was complete lockdown and because I was uh I had the broken ankle, it was almost like I was locked down in my body as well as the space.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, my my experience was uh the world telling me to sit still for a bit. Wow. Where do your parents live?

Writing.

Yeah.

Uh, they live in the south of France.

Is it like out in the country or is it like in the town or city?

They live quite out in the in the country. So, I could have gone on nice long walks, but of course I couldn't because my ankle was broken. So, I just uh stayed in place.

Mhm. Well, it's nicer than being like in an apartment in the city. I mean, there's some people who spent co They're like, I was locked in this, you know, tiny apartment for like 9 months.

And I would I would have been had I not broken my ankle.

Yeah.

I would have been stuck in in the city, but still, you know, it's uh I was far away from home. I was dealing with uh my father's illness and my my ankle. I mean, it was, you know, many people had a terrible COVID time

and or worse, right? But um yeah, so uh

yeah, for me like I live out in the country and so like when they said go home and stay home, I was like

uh okay.

Yeah.

Sure. You know, like Yeah. But I don't know. It's different story. Um

yeah. Yeah. But um I had a lot of time to to write, of course. Right. And

so is that when you wrote the book?

Yeah. So when I decided wanted to go to all of these different um all of these different burns.

Mhm.

I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I want to document it. And I've always liked writing and I've always had this dream that I would someday publish a book. So, I thought, well, why don't I bring my form of art and tell the story of this incredible network around the world, and that will be my

my offering, let's say, to to this his community. So, um, I said about traveling and I thought, okay, I'll be traveling, I'll be writing, but I'd never written a book before. So, five months in, I hadn't even written one word of this thing and I'd already been to, you know, five five of these events.

You didn't like take notes or anything like while you were there?

Yeah. No, a little bit, but not really.

Wow.

And and then I thought, oh no, how am I going to into can I even write this thing? So I was uh you know a little bit anxietyridden about how I was going to even start. I had that writer's block of starting something uh because I thought well I could make it into this almost like a dry research project or I could write about my experience or I wasn't really sure how to how to go about it. Um but yeah, five months in and I was at in South Africa at at the time I was at home and the internet went down. There's a lot of power cuts in in South Africa. See, the internet wasn't working and I thought, well, let me start writing. Don't have anything else to do. I'm in a dark house. There's a power cut by candle light almost. Um, and so I started I started writing this thing and Suddenly it was like the floodgates opened and all of these words just just came out, right? And I wrote the Africa Burn chapter in in one sitting. I think it was 3 4 hours. It was it was it was done right. And so uh I found my voice in a way

which which felt which felt quite quite magical as well. And then yeah Um few months later was was the pandemic and by that time I had finished doing all of these these trips. Um

in fact if I'd have started the journey 6 months later I wouldn't have been able to do this within one year because of the pandemic.

Oh yeah.

It was I I literally timed it perfectly.

And uh so then I I I had started writing, but I used that time and that stillness to to continue continue writing. I I was still working at the time. I was still doing remote work.

Um but I had more time on my hands

uh to be able to sit down, think through what I had lived and and write. So I did a did a lot of I did a lot of writing during that time and I think it was quite quite healing to have that as a little project and to be able to to, you know, walk down memory lane

and remember the magic of gathering with people of in-person

gatherings,

not through a screen, not doing it on a on a Zoom call or, you know, there was all of these Zoom events and Zoom calls at that time. So,

virtual burn and stuff. Yeah,

virtual burns during the pandemic.

But in the end, I I actually wrote a chapter about uh burning during the pandemic. Burning when we couldn't burn.

Yeah. Which I included in in the book. So

So yeah, that was that was my pandemic experience.

That's almost kind of like serendipitous, don't you think? You know, it's like where it's like you you had your trip and you and you okay, I'm going these seven continents and you know, I'm going to these seven burns and then all of a sudden it's just like, okay, now stop, slow down, ankle broken, dad, take care of, you know, like go and like start writing. It's like

yeah, it was it definitely gave me space to to do that. I would have probably been writing regardless, but

I wouldn't have had I think the same quite emotional experience of of writing about that time

in such a different context. Right.

Yeah.

Because at the beginning of the pandemic. It was very intense. We didn't know what was going to happen. Everyone was on lockdown. We were cleaning our shopping with products.

Yeah.

It was a bit bonkers.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was it was it was it was nuts. So, being able to reflect on what community means, what art means, what togetherness means, and all of its manifestations was a gift during during that time.

And were were you just writing this and like just and going through this whole process like all by yourself or like were you sharing like some of the bits you wrote like with like your like your mom or your dad or or or any like anybody?

So when I said about doing this this book project,

I was going to self-publish. I was doing it completely by myself. I mean, as I've mentioned, even all of the logistical planning, getting in touch with camps, um, all of that I was doing I was doing on my own. And I didn't get in touch with Burning Man project and discuss this with them,

right? Discuss some sort of joint

joint collaboration on this this project. So,

I funded it all um through through you know some savings but some but the work that I was continuing to do as a consultant um and yeah the the the book writing was a lot of alone time as well. Yeah I mean maybe I would get a friend to read it but there were not a professional editor by any

I was thinking more like your mom and your your dad would just like what is this? You know, they're not my target audience.

What do you mean by this? Like, I don't get it. Why do you do that?

I mean, I I spoke to them about Birding Man much more than they deserve to listen.

She's like, "Oh, Birding Man again." Like,

yeah. Yeah. At the time, I very obsessed. So, um I

So, how did you like involve the Birdie Man project? Like I mean, was it like after you were done? Did you contact them or did they contact you or how did that work? So I think that was quite serendipitous as well

because I had written this whole manuscript.

Uhhuh.

I think it took it. So at the end of that that year about four months into the pandemic, I had already the full the full manuscript of the book like the first draft.

Um and then I trying to remember how it It happened that I was put in touch uh with someone from the comm's team by someone that I had met at my at a my Burning Man camp in Black Rock City.

Mhm.

They said, "Oh, you know, if you're uh writing this, you know, you should speak to Andy uh Grace who's works on this team at Burning Man." And I was like, "Yeah, sure." You know, put put me in touch. They and and

they said, said, "Oh, Andy um is a is a freelance editor as well. Maybe she can give you some advice and and read through some of some of this." So, I thought, "Yeah, great." Um, so I I came back uh after after Burning Man and I reached out to Andy and I sent uh the manuscript and I said, "Well, you know, I've been I've been told that perhaps you can give me some advice on this this uh let me know when you have a chance to look at it. We can have a a follow-up catch up, you know, follow followup chat.

And so I didn't hear back from her for about two months. So in my mind I'm thinking, oh well, either she's not had time to read it or it didn't land properly, she didn't like it. I don't know. All of this sort of self self-doubt. And eventually I followed up up and she said, "Oh, yeah. Let's let's have a call on such and such a date." So, we had a call. We're we're having catch up. And at some point, I said, "Well, did you did you read some of it? What did you think?" And she said, "No, I I I read all of it. I read the whole manuscript."

I said, "Oh, okay. The whole thing."

And and and she said, "Well, I know that you wanted to to self-publish, but actually, Burning Man, we would really like to publish your book. And so

that's how it all started. And

wow.

And I said, "Yes, of course."

Yeah. I was like, "No, sure. Let me think about it." No. I was like, "Yes." And then uh that's when I started working with Burning Man uh on publishing the book. So then they did the editing of it. We would have calls where they would provide feedback and so on and then they did the whole publishing process. They managed the whole process. So

yeah,

which was um very serendipitous and and and and for me I think it was a dream come true really because it endor it showed that they also were behind what I was saying.

Yeah.

You know they were they were endorsing the

the journey. me the the the way that I saw the regional network and and so on. And

they did make there were of course rounds of edits to the draft, but

it was still very much my voice, right? It wasn't like the whole manuscript was was gutted. It was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was still It was still very much my voice, but a but it was a it was a a a good collaboration with them. Yeah. Yeah. It's just I don't know. It just makes me think it's just so emblematic of like how many things like happen at Burning Man or on the plier or at different events. Like it's just this weird like serendipity or or like you said like you you'll meet somebody and then they'll put you in touch with somebody and like these connections are are made and then

you weren't planning to go here but then now you're going to go there, you know,

and it's just Yeah. It's exactly

incredible story. Yeah.

When When you I mean this sounds corny, but when you allow yourself to follow a path that feels almost like destiny, then usually things open up and the world gives you these opportunities that you didn't.

Well, I also think like you you're you're I don't know, you're a pretty adventurous person. I think a lot of people are probably not as adventurous as you, you know, but um like you open yourself up to It's opportunity, right? I mean, it's it's like the opportunities are there. It's just whether you you know, you choose to kind of step through that door and take it, you know?

Yeah. But when you do, then magic happens, right? And then suddenly meet people who it feels like you were supposed to meet to help you along on the journey. And

Mhm.

Yeah. And when you open yourself up, you're in this flow. You're in this flow state. And that leads to more flow state. It leads you to meeting people who are also in flow state.

And it's that's a that's a wonderful thing. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, let's uh get on to our second question. Um so your background so before so where did you grow up? You said you said you're English and French or

Yeah. So my dad's English and mother's French and so I grew up mostly in in France in the south of France. Wow.

Um, when I was a child, we spend one year in Australia and that's when I started speaking English. Uh, yeah, my dad used to speak to me in English, but I would I would respond in in French because I was shy. And, uh, then, yeah, we moved to Australia. I started speaking English. I had quite an Australian accent at some point, which I lost. Uh, and yeah, and then went back to France. studied in the UK. Um, then moved more fully to the to the UK after I finish my studies and now I'm living in Spain.

So, what did you get your masters in?

What did I get my masters in?

Yeah, you said you were doing your masters at one point, right?

Yeah, I did uh both undergrad and and masters. It was in um I studied at SOASS, which is the school of oriental and African studies

in in London and it was in in um public policy and management but in more developing country contexts.

Oh

yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

So I've always worked in the the aid industry, let's say.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow. It's fascinating.

Which which meant that I traveled quite a lot before any of these burn things started.

Yeah. So I've lived and worked uh in in quite a few African countries. I mean I I me I think I mentioned Zimbabwe.

Um I was managing a police reform project in the Congo uh for a while. So I was in and out of the Congo. Managed a counterterrorism project in Iraq. Um yeah, so just had a lot of different and challenging experiences. as is uh in my my ever be anybody to write a book like you wrote about Bernie band the regionals and going on and and this thing of you know going to seven regionals all you know all in one year I mean not many people I think would uh be able to do that you know it seems like you have like a particular skill set you know that enabled you to do that it's incredible

yeah and I was very fascinated about community building and community development, right? Which in in in in the burn context, how people create community.

Yeah.

And that is also linked with what I was doing in my professional life, which is some grassroots level projects, how to build communities, how to um increase participation of women in some instances, etc. So there was Even though on the face of it, it doesn't seem like an obvious link, there was. Right? So for me going and experiencing all of these regional burns wasn't just to have a big party, right? That that was a lot less interesting for me. It wasn't this sort of hedonistic party aspect. It was more the coming together, building community community around a set of values, participation,

creating art, using art for healing. All of those aspects were fascinating to me. And I think that it tied back to the uh the development and the community development work that I was doing in in my in my career, which I'm also very passionate about.

Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that it all sort of made sense, but the The Burning Man bit allowed me to be more creative, right?

In my work work, I

But it's also related to Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I write reports, so I I it's less of a creative endeavor writing. Yeah.

It's it's it's a different side of the coin, let's say.

Yeah. Well, it's also like this project that I'm doing with my show. It's very similar like um I don't know. A couple years ago, I don't really interact very much with like social media. It's just kind of a swampy cesspool. Like often times people are just kind of crazy and flinging poo around, you know. But um I remember at one point a couple years ago, was it 24 or something like when uh I guess it was the first year it didn't sell out and then they were asking for like donations and people were getting all angry and they were like it's just a big party. Like what why you why do you have to like, you know, fund all this like year- round activity and this and that? And I remember like posting something where I was like, do you really think that people would spend 20, 30, 40 years of their life, you know, like consistently doing this like, you know, year after year like, you know, and spending spending their life this this is their life's work. It's like just to throw a party like I mean I I would like to say like yes and it's like it's a party and it's more than you know, but so many people were like, "It's just a party. Like, why do you have to do all these other things?" And like

Mhm.

Yeah. But I mean, it it is it is a community. It is a culture and it does

transcend various different cultures and places on this planet. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, yeah.

Our last question. It's just like, what has been the Burning Man's impact on your life?

Um, I mean, where do where do I start?

Well, as I as I mentioned, when I decided to write the book, I uprooted my life completely. You know, I left London, I left the office job, I went on the road, uh became very nomadic. I followed my life's dream which was to be a to be a professional writer, right, and actually get something published. So, it impacted all areas of my life. Now, I haven't stepped foot in an office since I left that full-time job. Now, I work remotely. I do project work and I can organize my life in a way that suits me. Um, and I've continued to to write also for the for the organization, right? So now I write for the Burning Man Journal. Um, I write for Burners Without Borders. And you know, you were you were you were saying how um people don't want to talk about these other things that Burning Man does around the year, right? Beyond just a party and beyond just an event. But uh

for some people Yeah.

Yeah. But I was I was very interested in what Burners Without Borders are doing and their and their mission and it really resonated with with my work obviously because you know for for for those who don't know Burners Without Borders is uh an NGO that is affiliated with Burning Man but is separate and um They fund different social and develop community development projects around the world. They have I don't know off the top of my head but something like 30 40 projects I think around the world um that can be anything right. It's basically their model is the community decides what to uh what to do with a with a burners without borders grant and it can be an art project, it can be a community development project, it can be um you know beach clean, what whatever whatever is is needed for that community. And so when I've traveled around the world for work assignments which take me to places like I don't know Uganda, Rwanda, Ecuador, Guatemala etc. then I will usually find out if there's a Burners Without Borders chapter there and then meet the people on the ground and then write about those projects because I think that it's important that people um know about Burning Man beyond just the events understand that there's burners out there who are really making a a change in their communities and maybe they've done that on the back of the principles that has inspired them or maybe they've never been to a Burning Man event at all. They've just found out a burn about burners without borders and want to contribute. Right? So

being part of this community doesn't mean that you have to have gone to an event a particular event you can come through it in by different different avenues and um and that's what I spent more of my time writing about now is these these land projects that are, you know, like land projects that are more permanent, burners without borders projects, what people are doing out in their lives for impact

and that very much ties in with

my values, right? So, yeah, it's been another feather in my cap that has allowed me to deepen um some of my interests. Yeah.

Wow. So, what's uh next for you?

What's next?

What's the the next the new horizon?

Yeah. You know, I think that I've been in a very very busy work period

recently and I've not had the space to really think about this uh what's next question, but at some point I do want a second book, right? I don't know if it's possible now with AI and I'll just I'll get that AI to write my book for me these days, but

um I do want to do another creative project like a meaty one. Um,

I had at the end of the the pandemic just in in in in 2022 ahead of the of the first official burn that that happened at at Black Rock City after the pandemic. I had thought about bringing a big scale art piece to Black Rock City.

Yeah.

And I started working on the the design. It was going to be this um kind of like a a stairwell, but a very tall one. It was going to be 10 mters high. I don't know what that is in feet.

30 feet or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh and it was going to be uh a reflection of um what happened during the the pandemic in a time where we couldn't gather. And then going up the stairway and there was going to be like um reflective ball on the top where people can look up and see each see everyone reflected there like a collect to be a collective again

and so I'm very fascinated by art for healing right the the temples and and and um some of the the the pieces which I've I've seen on plyier like um you you might have seen that I'm fine piece which was

uh in honor, right, of

of the Ukrainians. Yeah.

The Ukrainians

who had you know

I actually I think my favorite picture I took that year was it was the sunrise and the sun was rising behind the I'm fine and and robot heart is like just off look to the side.

Yeah.

Yeah. Beautiful.

There was in in um in South Africa there was an incredible piece called End the Stigma, which was a big uh sign, the big HIV sign. And then

when it burnt, it said uh change the name, end the stigma. And it, you know, so these

Oh, I like that. Yeah.

That allow us, you know, participants to Yeah. create something, a message and put it out to the for the world. to see

and burn it or not. Right. But

we just have so few avenues to do that in today's world.

Yeah.

Right. Be able to

use our creativity and gather around something that's meaningful.

And so, yeah, I'm not sure what the next stage is going to be, uh, the next chapter, but And I'm not sure whether I will do a big art piece, but some somewhere along the line, I want to bring all of these different very meaningful

art pieces and messages that I've I've seen and either write something about it. Um create an event, maybe create a a BWB project myself.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And really um give a platform for for some of this this incredible this incredible work. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, it's been about an hour and 15 minutes. This has been a wonderful interview. Um, thank you so much.

Thank you, Andy. Pleasure speaking to you.

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