The Shadow Of The Man
Why do people go to Burning Man year after year, some for decades? Isn't it all a big party or is there more to it than that? The Shadow Of The Man show explores the impact and influence Burning Man has had on people over time in their own words. New long form interviews from a wide range of participants come out weekly. You will hear from the founders to key volunteers to regular participants. No one person has the answer to what Burning Man is all about but by listening to these series of interviews you get a clue to the glue that binds all of these diverse people (from all over the world) together. Everyone who has been says Burning Man has changed their lives, are you curious to hear what that is all about? #burningman #blackrockcity #burningmanpodcast
The Shadow Of The Man
EP 90 Yonderman
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Episode 90 with Yonderman is out now! Meet Yonderman aka Mark Stirling, a New Zealand professor who reflects on his serendipitous discovery of Burning Man while studying geology in Nevada during the 1990s. The conversation traces his journey from a chance encounter with naked cyclists in the desert to becoming a foundational figure in the global regional network by establishing Kiwi Burn, the first Burning Man event outside North America. Stirling emphasizes how the culture’s principles of community and radical inclusion offered him a "chosen family" and a sense of liberation that contrasted with his earlier experiences of being bullied. His story highlights the transformative power of the event, illustrating how its philosophy can be successfully transplanted across oceans to foster lifelong creative and personal fulfillment.
Photo credit:
https://www.otago.ac.nz/geology/staff/mark-stirling
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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.
Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. The guy who goes tropo and gets blotto. No, no, it's that Andy. Today our guest is Yandere Man or Mark Sterling from down under in New Zealand. Welcome.
Hello there, Kiora.
Okay, Kiana. Yeah. So, a year ago, my wife and I went to the Cook Islands. And so, I guess the Cook Islands, they use like the New Zealand dollar. There's sort of um is kind of like a commonwealth with New Zealand. kind of thing.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So, there's a lot of Kiwis, a lot of Aussies there. And I just remember seeing these signs everywhere just being like, "Go Tropo, get blotto."
Good. Good slogan.
But anyway, um yeah. So, where does it all begin with? What was the first like time you even or how did you even first even hear about Burning Man? Like down being down under there?
Um Oh, discovering it by um accident while um living in the US. I was living in the US in the 1990s uh doing my PhD University of Nevada Reno and um I got taken out to this enormous plier Black Rock Desert um by my geologist friends
and um camping and um doing doing lots of geology. And um then my um wife partner Jane and I went out to um went out there on a Labor Day weekend to do some camping with a friend
at the Hot Springs. And um it was then we met lots of um interesting people um quite uh sort of um a lot of people who were from San Francisco in the main in the in the um in the Empire store and then out on out at the hot springs and um
so you had no idea like you hadn't heard about
no idea and yeah the we get to these hot springs um TGO hot springs and suddenly these these there's this bicycle race of of naked people with wearing nothing but mud coming over the hill past us um and smiling and waving and um we thought wow this is pretty cool. Stop at the hot springs and start chatting to people and um we um ended up chatting with this photographer who's done Burning Man photography books um before, Barbara Trobe, and she couldn't believe that we weren't out for Burning Man and said, "Oh, you've got to check it out."
Yeah.
Um and um Barber,
that is her. Yeah. So, she was my first ever Burning Man friend.
And um you could sort of see this haze out in the distance out on the player and we we we went out there in the evening and um just it was um absolutely amazing. It was it just absolutely trans fixed me what it was all about. We'd got there just after the main burn, but there was just a whole thing going on around the fire and and people dressed up and it was just amazing. The other the guy we were with was a little bit freaked out with it, but Jane and I, my late wife Jane and I, we absolutely loved it and we thought, well, we've got to come specially for this next year.
What year was this?
That was 1994 and it was 2,000 people. So, it's about the size of our Kiwi burn that we have. now in New Zealand. So that was my that was the discovery of Burning Man. Didn't even know a thing about it. Didn't know it was on. And
that's pretty unique. I mean because we've had so many guests and people like living in foreign countries and like I Yams was like I was watching TV late one night and it was like this grainy black and white video and I just saw some mysterious thing and I was just like what is this? You know like I think you're the first person I was just like oh no I was just there.
Yeah. Yeah. And then I met these crazy people.
Yeah. Thanks to having um earth scientist friends who were taking me out and showing me a bit of um the Great Basin.
Wow. So you're doing a PhD in the geology.
Yeah. Yeah. It was it was in um earthquake hazard um assessment and um so it was largely computer modeling but I'm a geologist fundamentally and so I was want I basically would still wanted to get out and have a look at things um on the ground and yeah that was um yeah it was the US style PhD fairly fairly long fiveyear slog but um life-changing in many ways
is uh the black rock and Nevada there like pretty I know that there's like hot springs is like uh
yeah
but is it like like seismically active too or
yeah it is it's all part of the basin and range and that's called that because um you have ranges mountain changes and you have basins and the whole the whole area is um pulling apart and because it's pulling apart the crust is thinning and the hot springs come through. So that's so you often have hot springs at the base of mountain ranges cuz that's where the fault lines are.
Oh, so can you feel tremors or like out on the
sometimes? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it's one of the more seismically active countries uh states. in the um in the um US actually.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah. So um yeah, it's um really quite um quite active. I'm getting getting covered. It's a winter in New Zealand. Thanks, Steve.
How how how cold is it? It doesn't look very cold.
This is Steve.
Hi, Steve.
Good night. good mate in in my hometown of Deneden.
Yeah. Yeah.
So So that's Yeah. So it's one of the most seismically active um states in in the US. I mean California would be the top one.
Um
because I think a lot of burners know about like the hot springs and like the ancient like lake how do you say Laotan?
Lontan. La.
Yeah. And but like I'm not sure if Like if there was like a sizable earthquake, I mean like I wonder if like a lot of people on the plywood would be like, "Oh my god, what's that?"
Yeah.
Yeah. They would certainly feel it and some of those structures would be compromised. I don't know whether the health and safety um take into account the possibility of earthquakes.
Ah, it's funny because I was um interviewing um Coyote and I remember like years ago I had this joking idea to like do like a like a playa OSHA, you know, the Occupational Safety Hazard Administration.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, so like to go around and like put like these big like neon stickers on like DPW like like with just like plaster class like the windshields like violation, you know, and I remember like the DPW friends of mine were like
don't don't do that. Don't like if you value your life like you you wouldn't do that. But I was like come on. God, it's like how many like you just look around. I mean, not so much DPW, but more just like the participants and like the janky structures that people make, you know? You're just like, why would you possibly do that? Like that's crazy, you know? But I mean, just like the the engineering involved with just uh the the the average burner is like on a good day not that great, you know. But uh no,
seismic considerations like Yeah.
I don't think so.
Interesting.
Yeah. So, that was 94. You're just camping out in the hot springs and you just run across these random naked people and then you uh Yep.
you find Burning Man. Wow. And so, then the next year,
how did you get did you just kind of show up at the time or did you kind of like get involved or connected beforehand?
Um just showed up and enjoyed it for the next few years. Yeah. And I finished. We um we went. So we went discovered that and discovered it in '94 and then we went 95, 96 and 97.
Mhm.
And 97 was when it was in Halapai Pier. It was on private land and that was
that was a bit of a disaster for the org because of being on private land and you know part of Wo County and in those days it was seen as um as an event that um was you know heathen and all that. sort of thing. And Wo County really laid it on quite quite hard in terms of all the um regulations and stuff.
Yeah. Well, they charged them like an exorbitant amount of money and they had like the
the the sheriff's deputies like sitting in the box office collecting the money as it came in cuz they're like, "No, we're getting our cut first."
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, that was that. So, it went it was much easier to deal with the BLM, they realized. And So they ended up um heading off to um uh back to the BLM land the following year.
Thanks Stephen.
Yeah. Um yeah and and um then so 1998 moved back to New Zealand. Um and um then so the next burn went back to New Zealand. Missed missed the whole Burning Man culture. Missed a lot of aspects of the US culture.
Came back to Burning Man in the year 2000 with our with our son Lewis who who was um born in he was born in the end of May and we took him to Burning Man so he was only about 2 or 3 months old.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's when we that's when we stayed in Kidsville for the first time and probably met you back then.
Yeah.
I'm trying to think.
I remember meeting Zeod back then.
Um Mark Burrows. Um
yeah, he and he's been in the regional network,
but um that was a year where there was lots of wind. It was quite cold and there was lots of wind and dust.
Yeah. I think I missed 2000 cuz I remember I got married in 2000 and then my wife was just like, "No, no, like we're going on a honeymoon." It's like, "You're not going to Bernie man." I was like, "Okay."
Yeah. Yeah. Then 2001 I moved to Hawaii and I remember that was like the first time coming from Hawaii. I remember that. Yeah.
Yeah.
So, how was that coming from New Zealand? I mean, I know coming from Hawaii, you know, I'm like when I went back in 2024, like I had like two duffel bags and a backpack and it was
Yeah, we had to um we we brought stuff, some stuff, but we were reliant on um the kindness of friends with who lend us camping gear and even lent us a a a vehicle
and and we um so we were able to do do things um that way. And um yeah, we we had a good time. It was good. It was good to be back.
How was it being in Kidsville?
Oh, Kid Kidsville was quite um a relief for us being, you know, new parents with a with a baby.
So, there was a lot of support there. Although a um such a young baby is actually quite easy to look after. because they're they're breastfeeding.
Um they're small. You can you can just wear them.
Yeah. They don't get away too fast. Yeah.
No, that's right. We just wore Lewis on our on our front in a in a protective thing.
Um you know, my we had to um we didn't tell my um parents that we were taking him to Burning Man because they they were sort of overprotective. They were they were of the attitude well particularly my my late mother. that when you have kids, it really clips your wings because you've got to do everything to look after that child and that means not going anywhere. And
ah,
which we we sort of thought that that kind of brought out the the sort of um you know rebel in me and thought I'm not going to let that happen.
I don't know. It was kind of like a old school idea. You know, it's like now you have kids, it's now you're an adult, no more fun.
Yep. Yep. Kidsville was probably only a few tens of people back then. Not the huge size it is now.
Oh
yeah.
Not sure I've ever been in Kidsville actually. But
I thought we met at Kidsville.
I don't think so.
Like way back.
No, because back way back then I was a little more I was, you know, like we're both gray and old now. No fun,
you know. But back then it was like Yeah. I don't know. I think like we were operating you know, like a 24/7 bar and we were just like kind of like out of control, you know. But, uh, I'm not sure I would have went to Kidsville.
Oh, so, so we met through the regionals network then,
probably. Yeah. Yeah. So, I became a regional in 2002
and then we probably met at like, you know, one of those um,
those gatherings at like first camp. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Lots of good times and those early days.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there wasn't really that much opportunity for us to actually get together. I mean, because there was
there was like the regional list, like the email list, which I think was like our main kind of
point of contact, right?
And uh
and then yeah, this one time once a year at first camp, the the regional mixer thing and it'll be like what hour and a half, maybe two hours and
just booze was full.
Speech.
Yeah. Speech or two. um from um Marian or M back in the day. Larry.
Larry. Yeah. Stephen.
Yep.
He's great.
Yeah. Yeah. Still around.
I still catch up with Steven every now and then.
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. When I went back in 24, I camped uh where he was camping. It's kind of behind Media Mecca. Um
Oh, yeah.
It was a place called El Swear.
And uh yeah, a number of other people were camping there, too. But um
Mhm.
Yeah. Yeah. I love Stephen. Yeah, he's a great guy. I got to get him on the show one of these days.
Yeah, true. Right.
Kind of like reluctant. It's like what me talk about me? I was like that's what it's all about.
Yeah.
Yeah. So
it like I said like it must be it's it's it's a long flight. I know it's a long flight from Hawaii to New Zealand, but like New Zealand to San Francisco, you know? So
like and so after that I mean like how many times did you go after that did you or was just here and there?
Um, it was pretty much every year for a long time because I ended up um I ended up having a because of my PhD in the US, I got very well connected with the American scene
and um I ended up going back over there for um um research purposes and um you know that was funded by various projects. And so I'd be over there in the sort of um August, September time period every year. And and I was able to just take a week's leave and go to um Burning Man. You know, I already had a I already had a a vehicle on long-term rental and I had camping gear and stuff. So there were years where I went by myself and years when I went with with my late wife Jane
and and some times with the boys and that would usually be about every two years or so. Um she I' she'd fly over with me
and um again we'd have camping gear there and and um set up in um in Reno.
And so um I didn't go to 2001 but went pretty much 2002 right through to 2009 was the first one I didn't go. Mhm.
And then I don't there was some that I didn't go to after that, but all in all I've been about 19 times.
Wow.
And yeah, and I stopped in 2018. Um I just I'd been two days there or three days there and I just woke up one morning and said, "Oh, I think I've had enough of this." And then I went packed I packed up and went and had a few days at some hot springs. But then I came back in 2023 very um after my wife Jane, she passed in in 2021. Um just a she she had a random brain hemorrhage totally unpredictable. Um Burning Man office offered me a couple of um free tickets in a vehicle pass saying in recognition of my long-term contributions to Burning Man and the um and the loss of Jane.
That's sweet. And so I took I took my partner of the time uh who's still my partner now um who's an artist who works in mental health. I I said, "Hey, um D, do you want to go to the largest art festival in the world for free?" And she sort of said yes. So,
we went in 2023,
but that's that's jumped forward quite a lot in in between um you know um
yeah, a lot in between.
Yeah. And and sort of um in that sort of 2000 2001 um area, I sort of thought, well, it might not. Before I started going over there for work at that time of year and be able to take leave and go to Burning Man, I was sort of thinking it it's um I really miss Burning Man and I'd love to um it would be so good if that if if I could sort of find that community or create that community in New Zealand.
Yeah.
And and that was the time at that time I was hearing about the growth of the regional work in the US.
Yeah.
And and I got this I know I got this crazy idea partly just cuz of um thinking this would be good. It would be an amazing thing to go global uh Burning Man culture cuz it's so amazing and it was sort of life-changing for me. Uh but I also thought if if I could create this sort of community in New Zealand, it would um take the um some of the need to to be going to the Nevada one.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that's where I got the idea of um sort of um forming the first international regional which became Kiwi Bird.
Was it actually the first outside of the US?
The first Yeah, there might have been um might have been um in Ma in North America there might have been
in Canada or something.
Yeah, in Canada maybe Toronto that's been going for a while. Um but yeah, first outside of um North America. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cuz I'm sure the Canadians will be just like we're not America.
Exactly. Yes. Fair enough. Especially
So now like Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah. So that was what 2002ish you said or
Yes. Yes. So in actually in 2003. Yeah. So the regional network started getting established around 2001 2002. And because I knew I knew the um I knew Marian And I knew Larry and some of those people because that's something I used to see them in bars in in Reno when I was living there. Like on a Thursday night they'd be at a bar often be in a bar called the Blue Lamp and I used to chat to them there about Burning Man and was in quite good um regular contact with them. And um so um I I think they started they sort of said well you know you should be a um contact for New Zealand. And that became the regional I became a regional contact through that um communication. And it was then I thought well you know I could actually use this this to form a regional in New Zealand a regional community event and community.
Mhm.
And and so I got the idea of doing it taking it um very carefully and not sort of saying Hey, setting up a whole festival for the first time and expecting people to come along to something that the majority of people hadn't heard of.
Yeah.
I thought I'll run this within an existing likeminded festival in New Zealand.
And so I found the the Visions Festival, which I'd been to before, and that was in the Northern South Island in a fairly remote area called Golden Bay. And um they had actually been using quite a few of the Burning Man principles as the basis for running their event.
And so I approached them and said, "Would you be um up interested in me running a um just a one day, one night Burning Man event within your festival and calling and we'll call it um Kiwi Burn."
And that was a sort of a throwaway name that I thought might if this sticks it might the name might change over time. Um but uh so that that happened and and people so I was able to exploit the fact that I was in in an existing festival with with you know a couple of thousand people and
Oh wow.
that um they we we ran events and I had a I built a um built a man we call it an effigy these days. Uh and um burnt it in a big procession and that was people really really got it and really loved it and so the Visions Festival. I was going to do the same thing the following year, but then and so that was 2003 2004. It was done over New Year's Eve
and and um then the um festival quit and it it's didn't run the next year. So um we decided to and this the Wii is um Grant Grant Nolles tribal man. He was a um guy that I got to know there in the he he'd run a tribal zone with lots of drums. and workshops and fire and things like that. And he helped me um then to organize a standalone um Kiwi Burn event.
Mhm.
On um on commu community land uh in um in Golden Bay and we ran we ran another two years worth there and then um so Kiwi Burns started to get on the map as and that it was well and truly the first international regional and others started getting the idea. I think nowhere started and not long after that Africa burn started.
It took a while for the Australians to get get going. Um which was interesting and um
yeah
but then then there were lots of quite a few people from the United States and from the North Island that came to the um then it was the 200 what were you 2006 event.
Uhhuh.
And um said, "We've got we should grow this. Um let's let's um take it to the North Island of New Zealand and and tap all the artists that live in the big cities up there, Wellington and Oakuckland, and go the full thing to making it an incorporated society and get and and have tickets and things like that." And so it went the next step in 2007 and we we got land in this central north island um and um ran it as a 3-day event and it ran there till 2013 which was our 10th anniversary.
Mhm.
Um which um yeah some folk um from the org came over for that event. Um
well how big was it like in those those first few days those first few years?
Oh the first few years like probably in I think about a hundred in the first um couple of years, maybe one to 200 in the third year, fourth year.
Um, and it then it steadily sort of started growing exponentially.
Mhm.
And until we actually had to sort of cap numbers uh at two 2 and a half thousand. So the um and the reason for the capping is that um it was based on a volunteer infrastructure. So you you can only do so much when you're a volunteer um organization and this and and keep the ticket prices down.
Yeah.
You know, there were there was there were people that would say, "Look, what about radical inclusion and all this sort of thing? Your your tickets sell out in 20 seconds. You know, this is ridiculous." And and we say, "Well, we're volunteer. Um if you want to um uh be able to come, we're we're we're going to have to and we want to make it bigger. We're going to have to start having people employed year round and then the ticket prices are going to go up.
So that that tended to um give people the understanding.
Yeah.
Yeah. They'd rather have low ticket prices and and get in early than um high ticket prices.
Yeah. Well, it was the same thing when we were running our event here in Hawaii, you know, where people they want to come to the party, they don't want to work the party. and they want it to be for free, you know, like we're like and we were I remember even like a 35 $40 ticket price where like it's a three like it's a 4 day three night event with like all this art and fire spinners and all this and all this and all that and like they're just like
exactly
$35 really, you know? I'm like like
that's amazing. That's amazingly cheap.
Yeah, we were joking around because this was like on the the the jungle side of like the big island, you know, Puna. And so we were like joking around. We were like, you know what? Maybe next year what we should do is like just grow a whole bunch of marijuana, right? And so be like, okay, for $6 you get to take it plus this bag of weed. And I'm sure every single person would just be like, "Well, that's more than double what you asked before, but I get this bag of weed." Like, "Oo, I'll give you more for that." You know, like
a little festival package. Yeah. Whereas nowadays people just like, well, what's that? Sure. Sounds like a great idea. You know, it's like
Yeah. So now, so Kiwi Burns up to like a couple thousand people now, huh?
Yeah. Yeah. It varies between two two and a half thousand depending on how many volunteers we've got. Um, but we we in 2014 we moved to a site which we've had ever since on private land and And it's on on these um sort of river terraces that that go down to a to a major river. And um being on private land, being on dirt roads and stuff, it's very very secure.
Mhm.
A very secure site from a um you know, incursion thing, you know, it's very hard for people to sneak in
to to the event. And the farmer is a great guy. He he he um he he has his cake and he eats it. too, which so he should. He He makes some decent money out of having the festival and he participates in the festival. Yeah. And really enjoys it.
I got to say like all these years you like, you know, doing regional stuff like I think like the best position to be in is is the landlord,
you know, cuz it's like you're just like everyone is like it's like like begging you please kind of use your land and then and and we'll we'll leave no trace and we'll even like leave it better than we found it. So it's like you're going to give me money and improve my land and there's going to be this great event and I get to participate too like for free. Well, not only that, I'm getting money. It's like like yeah, why not? You know, it's I'm I'm always amazed like more people don't like you know take us up on the order on the you know the offer. But
totally totally
Yeah. I think people just see like they just go to like YouTube or whatever they type in Bernie man and you see it's like oh nudity destruction devilry you know. drugs, you know, like, "Oh, I I couldn't possibly have that in my my nice little moral farm here, you know."
Oh, exactly. Yeah, there is a bit of that.
Yeah.
It took
that first time in the North Island, it took a while to get a sight because of that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, so did you guys have like um more like a yearround community like outside of Kiwi Burn, too? Like do you have like like regular like meetups, things like that.
Yeah, there there was meetups in in some of the the cities. I I used to host a lot of um events in in the Wellington area and basically if if there was ever um any um people coming in from overseas, they'd contact me. I'd get get um burners together and we'd have some some good times in in the city.
Uh do do events. I'd often usually throw a party at my place. And um yeah, then there were yeah there were occasional um sort of fundraisers and um stuff like that. And that was Wellington and Auckland had the biggest city up in the north that that had some things going on. And then um as time went on there's been um smaller burns that have happened in various parts of the country. Um there was there was melting man in in Christ Church area. was a mid- winter event where um we'd have a uh effigy built with ice on it and and burn it and melt it.
Uh and there was there was some nacky burn in the Tanaki area the the in the western North Island. Um there was Hecky burn in Wiki Island in near Auckland and there was um there was a southern burn in um in the um uh Nelson area in the South Island. So get getting back into the South.
So yeah. So and um yeah, there was a um there's there's of course now a Facebook site with with last time I looked I think there was at least 8,000 members on it.
So yeah, I mean that's national and international. A lot of people plan their their vacations in New Zealand around the time of Kiwi Burn. I hosted some burners the this this last um year up post Kiwi burn in our in our house for a week or two and yeah so the community is is thriving. There have been um events that have been um uh stimulated by um inspired by Kiwi Burn that have developed. There's there's a big one called Ignition that happens in the um North Island um not too far from Oakuckland and it's a very popular event. It it had a few years off and then it was on again this this year just before Kiwi Burn. Very popular event. It's it's not an official Burning Man event, but it's a Burning Man inspired event
and uh has a lot of burners that go to it. And then there's um one in the South Island uh southern South Island near not too far from a town called Gore in Southland that's called Burning Horse
and that's not a Burning Man official Burning Man event either, but it's kind of Burning Man inspired.
Huh. So, these smaller like are these smaller events like just like people or something?
Well, Ignition's pretty large. I think I I haven't been to Ignition myself.
Um I've had lots of people suggesting I go and I I would like to if once if I and find the time away from work. Um and um but yeah, I think it's comparable to the size of Kiwi Burn, I think. And but then Burning Horse and some of these other ones are just kind of small. They're just in in the sort of um maybe one to 200 sort of
would be the maximum. Yeah,
that's a nice size though. Yeah,
it is. It's a really good size.
Yeah. Yeah. So, when does So, when does Kiwi burn happen? When does ignition happen? Um well this time well they were both in mid to late January so it's summer in New Zealand and Kiwi burns traditionally we we went to five days in um around 2014 I think
um from 3 days to 5 days and I might be remembering that wrongly but anyway around then and and um it happens it ends up the last part of it land anniversary weekend. So that's around the 25th or so of January that it ends and uh Ignition this year happened just before that. So it was more mid January. Yeah. So so people who went to Ignition and Kiwi Burn basically did the two festivals back to back
which I was going to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Pretty pretty hard work for someone like me to do that.
Well, it be like two weeks in a row, right? Like
Yeah, that's right. Get a bit festival out, I reckon.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, there's some
more younger more adventurous burners out there. Sure.
Yeah. I could I could do that easily in younger days.
Yeah. So, you're
when our hair was a different color.
Yeah. So, but you live on the South Island, right? In Deneden,
correct? Right.
Yeah. Eden in the
Yeah. So, um I mean I guess you just fly up to the North Island, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Usually fly to Wellington and drive from there or fly to Auckland
and drive.
Yeah.
Um someday I'm going to get a get a vehicle um permanently based in North Island rather than using rental cars.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a ferry? Like could you drive and then get a ferry from the the South Island? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. The cook straight varies and that's another way of doing it. I mean
two years ago I rode up with my on my motorbike.
Um and uh this last year I took my vehicle up cuz I I had also have a a um permanent trailer site up in the North Island that that I had to take some equipment up to it. So I took my um four-wheel drive up all the way.
Yeah. It's a nice make you make it a road trip. And the the with the travel you sort of the I think I I I think I've heard it from people like Scottto who runs a big theme camp at Burning Man. Um saying that you sort of you get in the mindset that your holiday your vacation starts when you walk out the front door of your house. So make the road trip part of the holiday.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Cuz like for my first Brett man experience in 96 like it was the whole point of it was was kind of like my brother and I were taking a road trip together and like we didn't even know what this Burning Man thing like was. We had some friends who were like, "Oh yeah, you two guys should really go to this thing and they gave us like a copy of the survival guide and we just kind of looked at it for the directions and we're just kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like whatever." But yeah, it was more it was kind of like it was the the journey. It wasn't so much the destination, you know?
Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's the slogan.
Yeah. So, Does the New Zealand burner community like do they also like get get together like on the playa like do you guys have like a like a New Zealand camp or anything like that?
Um that there used to be a um I don't know if it still happens. There was um an international camp where a lot of um firsttime New Zealand burners would go.
Um and one of the senior guys at that camp was was um a guy who whose burning man name was Kiwi. and he he would organize um organize that for the for a lot of the um New Zealand burners generally first timers um and some others and um but then they we I would I ran um meetups on the plier back in the back in the sort of 2002 through
um 2008 sort of time period those early days.
Yeah.
And those sorts of things. still happen. Um there's meetups that go on. Um that and and communities that um that just uh you know pe a group of New Zealanders go over together
and there's been some pretty significant art projects on the plier done by New Zealanders.
Um I mean the the probably the the biggest highlight one would have been Kiwi's Temple of transition. So the New Zealanders got the um won the the the sort of um contract if you like to do the temple in 2011 I think it was
and and that was the temple of transition anyway that's the name and it was beautiful temple and that was Kiwi's ma main he was the leader of that and and it was fabulous and there's been art projects like um Hippie Hippie Tim, he did the um giant wetter. There was a wetter is a big um sort of grass native grasshopper type beast in New Zealand that is is probably oh you know this some of them get to being about that sort of size. See my fingers
um or bigger. And he he did this built this huge metallic one
um and that that blew fire out of its antenna
and that was a P thing. It's now it's now um on permanent display in Mount Bruce Wildlife Sanctuary in the North Island
and then
yeah and then more re and Kiwi also built a big art project called um I think it was called um Megatropolis and it was a whole lot of famous city skyscraper all together like the Empire State Building and the Sears Tower and all that sort of thing and that was burned one year and then most recently Kiwi went back there a couple of years back maybe and he made a um a massive road cone orange road cone.
Oh yeah yeah yeah
seeing that. Yeah.
So so that sort of thing brings Kiwi um burn community together on the player.
How does it work like logistically? I mean, are they building this like in like Reno or something?
Oh, um yes, there's there's but the build goes for those sorts of things. The build happens in Reno. Uh with the likes of the um the wetter that was built in Oakland and shipped over.
Really? Wow.
In a container. Yeah.
God. How much did that But the but oh a lot of fun a lot of fundraising money. Yeah.
And and but yeah these big these big wooden structures they head over there months beforehand and just build them in a great big warehouse in Reno.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I'm always amazed
to take them.
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's like well step one like you were talking about before is like getting the time off of like work and life you for me like like one an entire week, you know. My wife is like,
"Yeah, okay. I can't one week, seven days, you know, like it was like, yeah, I'll be there for a couple of months, you know, be like, no, you're not coming back home."
Yeah.
But then Yeah. Then it's like the expense, you know? I mean, I don't know. I just wonder how much it would cost to ship a container because I I know like there like the New York Park Regional and like Boston and other people the places like they have like do they do like a container like to the playa and each person kind of puts in I don't know whatever like 100 bucks or something to get like their like their tent and their bike or whatever like out to the playa you know but um
I don't know that's something that um I know some people here in Hawaii have done years past they would you know their their private kind of like rave camp you know and so they they had like this really rich guy who would just like pay for it but and I've been like talking to Clen who's like the the last remaining regional here who actually lives here uh and we were like yeah what if we did something like that you know but it's just it's such a big undertaking and like you know it's so expensive and like you have to get like a lot of people and they each have to kind of plug in money and it's it's it's
I don't know if you're just coming from Reno or San Francisco or something it's like why you just drive out to the desert you know like Yeah.
Across the ocean is an entirely entirely different
entirely different thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty special.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At least the most the structures get burned but the wet had to go had to travel back.
Yeah.
Wow. Wow. That's incredible.
Yeah. Just wonder how much that cost.
Yeah. And then people come from like like South Africa. I've been coming from, you know, like Europe and stuff like
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's why like when we kind of like I was asking about like, you know, whether you guys had like a New Zealand camp because I mean, for a number of years, we had our like Hawaii camp and that was kind of like one of our goals was like to have like a a place for people to land, you know, because just the just the like the logistics of, you know, even just flying 5 hours, you know, but it's like, well, you can only have so much you can carry on a plane, you know, but it's like, okay, well, no, we'll have a camp we'll have like some basic amenities you so it's like you can just kind of show up and it's not it's not like your plugandplay like kind of camp thing where like oh yeah for $50,000 you get a segue I'm a costume consultant or anything like that you know but it's just kind of enabling people from like farther away to kind of to come you know
yeah so that burner um burner hostel no not burner hostel the the international camp that I can't remember the name of served that purpose.
Mhm.
And there were quite a few New Zealanders who would be at that but also from other nationalities.
Yeah.
It was a very popular camp for a long time.
Have you ever gone over to
It might have been might have been called the International Burner Hostel. Something like that.
Does sound familiar. Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you uh attended any of the uh Australian burns? No, no. I I kind of want to do that uh at some stage. I I I've actually um embarrassingly I've not I've only really done regionals in one or two regionals in um the US. I've not been to any of the Australia ones. I've had many invitations and I I haven't been to a nowhere or a Africa burn, but I'd like to do that. I mean, I might um when I eventually um finish work. Um, that would be one thing I'd like to do to have, you know, when time is not so much of an issue and hopefully finance is not an issue.
Yeah.
Yeah. Go to go go go to some regional burns in Australia and beyond.
Yeah.
Well, they they've really they've really grown legs. Um, you know, I was saying that they started quite a bit after us.
Uh, when um
when 2010 came along,
um, Marian and um and um gosh, she was the re I'm temporarily forgetting forgetting her name. She was the regional um coordinator for a long time prior to um
Andy or
No, it was posty
Megan.
Me and Marian came over in 2010
to you know see our event cuz they could they could see that we we were at the stage where we were going from being a very small
um event to being sort of like that fully integrated Burning Man cultural event. But they were also from there going to Australia to basically try and push the Australians along to start to do something.
Mhm.
Cuz there'd been a guy there um Robin uh I think his name was his Burning Man name was Halum who had been the Australian coordinator for a long time. He and and about for maybe even before me, but had had not done anything with it.
And so they were going to push them along. And so they pushed them along. They did. They they they had an event uh in um gosh, west of Sydney um north of Melbourne, somewhere somewhere in the Interland there. And then now and then it's then it's ended up with legs. You know, there's quite there's several different um burning men events and communities in Australia. I hear great things about them. And
well, you think I mean Australia is huge and there's a lot of desert. I mean it'd be like natural like environment, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. Do you remember Beck's?
Yes, I do.
She's living in New Zealand.
Did you know? I think she's like in the like North Island there somewhere,
right? Yeah. Yeah. I think I' I'd heard that. somewhere at some stage.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I would love to like, you know, one of these days if you're ever going to go like let me know. Maybe I'll come with you.
Yeah, it would be fun.
Yeah.
It'd be fun to reconnect.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also like as part of my show, what I um like I went to Unscrews the Santa Cruz regional like uh in in May and uh also like last year in the play like I've been just collecting these like short they call them like shadow shorts. They like little five minute interviews with people. So basically I challenge people to say like you know how has Bernie man impacted your life and you have to five minutes like go you
y
and uh but yeah no I would love to travel around to other places like you know hang out with you hang with friends you know like you know and check them out and record some
that would be amazing
stuff like yeah
god yeah that'd be topnotch.
So how did you wind up in uh Reno for your PhD out of all the places you could have gone? Yeah, I'd been working for the better part of 10 years in in consulting and um stuff like that. And I I wanted to do a PhD before I got too much older, I wanted to work in scientific research, but I also thought cuz I'm was cuz I was in the job already working and getting used to an income and stuff. I thought um if I I take time out from from working. I want it to be a real great experience. And so I want it and and I want to learn in the way that you learn when you go to a different culture uh and a different research culture sort of thing. And so I thought I'm going to do a PhD which would kind of be like a work and but make it kind of like a working OE.
A lot of New Zealanders would you know they do their overseas experience OE by going to London and working in a bar or cleaning and then heading off over to Europe on trips.
Okay. So, this is something I think you might need to explain to the listeners and viewers because it's like I think it's a particularly kind of like like Kiwi and Aussie thing the whole OE right overseas experience. So, is that like
yeah
what I understand because I remember like when I studied abroad in in Europe and I I ran across like all these Kiwis and Aussies and I was like why are running across so many people like oh this is what we do like after high school like we take a year off and travel around or go work
is that what it is
we recognize that we're in a little island in the middle of the Pacific or a big island if you talk about Australia where are quite isolated and so go and see the world uh before you end up in you know down the the the sort of in track of um working for a living and not being able to get time off and things. So yeah It's a it's very much a cultural thing to go on the OE overseas experience, but I saw the what most folk do including my sister going and working in a bar in London and heading off and I thought what this all the other great places in the world to be why does everyone want to go and work in London and I guess the you know those days it was easy to go over to Europe and stuff like that. So that's something Um, but I sort of wanted to buck that trend and thought, well, and I'd been working for a while. I was in in my I was 30 years old and I thought, um, I wanted to I really want to be a work in research because I've been in consulting. Uh, but I'm much more interested in in stuff at a more fundamental level than the other consultants that I'm working with. And I found myself And um after as soon as my you know 5:00 came with my job, I'd put that stuff aside and start writing a a paper a scientific paper.
And so I felt and I had scientists friends and um sort of kind of guys that turned out to be kind of mentors
saying, you know, you owe it to yourself to go into a research position and you know, if you have to get a PhD, so be it. And so eventually talked myself into doing a a PhD, but I thought I'll do it overseas. I'll go and I'll get a some sort of scholarship that's reasonably well paid uh paid and I'll learn from a foreign environment. And so I applied widely to various places and um the one place that a lot of places said we want you come over on your own money and while we're there in the first year we will work out uh how to get funding
and I wanted to work in sort of earthquake science, you know, um understanding earthquake occurrence by studying fault lines and statistics and things like that. Um but then University of Nevada Reno, Steve Wnowski, who he he I'd been recommended by by a colleague in in New Zealand to contact him. Um he contacted me in the middle of the night. He got the time zone wrong. He would thought he was calling me about 10 in the morning, but he actually called me at 4 in the morning. But it's the most welcome wakeup call I've ever had because he offered me a PhD with funding complete and he offered he said
here are the range of topics you could work on and there was
earthquake hazard assessment in Southern California. Uh there was mapping the North Anatolian fault in Turkey. Um the big fault line there um studying the the basin and range in Nevada. And so I thought, "Oh, this is just like kid in a candy store." So I accepted. That's how I ended up in Reno.
Yeah.
And and that and that allowed me to meet my geologist friends who took me out to the Black Rock Desert, discovered Burning Man.
Oh. So what was this consulting thing you were doing before you got into the PhD program?
Um yeah, I was I worked in sort of engineering geology. Um, so I I my interest has always been in younger geology, the stuff that's that you see around you, the the you know the the processes that you see, you know, the the landslides and the fault lines and
coastal erosion and stuff like that. And so I I I had some I had a role for a while um mapping um mapping landforms for an ecological survey, but then I ended up with this job where I um was a um geological um earth engineering geology consultant. So I do a lot of site investigations for housing developments, bridge developments, that sort of thing. Um data databases and stuff like that. So I did that for five, six years. Um
and so now there were other things I worked on. I did I did my time doing coal coal um exploration, you know, core logging. and and drill rig supervision and all the stuff that went with that.
So what's your position?
Probably about seven seven years of work before I went and did my PhD.
So what's your position now? Like you're you're a professor and den yeah chair of earthquake science is the position and so it's an endowed chair. It's an endowment. Uh and it's a prof professor position. It was a higher at the professor level. And so the Deneden's in southern New Zealand. It's in a low seismic area. There's not a great deal of activity here. But when our Canterbury earthquake sequence happened in 2010, 2011, um that was quite um a devastating earthquake sequence, the one of the aftershocks killed 183 people in Christ Church. It was a direct hit on Christ Church and it was um it was a um um New Zealand's worst earthquake in terms of loss of life. Uh it was recognized then that Denedan did not have any earthquake expertise. Otago University it's the oldest university in New Zealand and so they created an endowed chair position and endowment that's where donors put in enough money that that it can it can fund a position and they recognized we should have earthquake science expert in the university in recognizing that we could have a similar earthquake scenario in the Deneden area as Canterbury. So that's how the position was created and I got shoulder tap to apply for it and I competed with I even though I was coming from the industry. So this is also um after coming back from PhD I got a job with um IGNS which became GNS science. It's kind of like the US Geological Survey,
but it's privatized.
And I worked in that doing earthquake hazard analysis for 18 years. And then I got shoulder tapped to to um apply for this um Otago position. And I didn't have any academic experience or hardly any. Um I'd co-supervised some some thesis, but um I thought I didn't stand a chance with the job and especially when I found out that my compet editor was a professor with from Reno,
ironically, um with 30 years of experience. So, I thought I went into it thinking I'm going to have a chance um competing against someone with an academic background, but I I nailed the job and got it. It was um an amazing opportunity. So,
maybe they thought like you were a burner and they weren't.
Yeah. Well, but they did say they did say um that part of it I mean a big part of it I had all the publication background and stuff like that. Um so the credentials were there but with them the the main thing they wanted to um test was my ability to communicate to students and be able to relate and and you know that sort of um
and I was told after as well yeah hands down you had the X factor over that other guy. So And I I I fell on really fell on my feet there. I I I um cuz now I don't just have to work on earthquake hazard modeling. I actually go out and study fault lines and I I get students to do I get I get ideas and I give them to my students and they take them away and do great things with them. So that the you know the productivity in is is phenomenal. I'm I'm sort of reviewing things now in my my 60s as to when I finished it. But it's very hard.
Yeah, that was going to be my next question.
Such a It's very hard to finish a up in a in a job that's such a lifestyle job. It's not like I've been um you know, sort of laboring all my life and I can't wait to finish. It's like it's something I love doing. I mean, the university bureaucracy gets to me. Um I get, you know, I'm getting sometimes I feel a bit long in the tooth to be dealing with their
Mhm. sort of politics,
financial in politics.
Um I haven't put my hand up to be a head of department or anything like that.
Um but um apart from that, you know, see and seeing students learn and when I'm in the teaching, I really enjoy it. Um and the research is great. I've just had a week in the US catching up with other scientists that I'm working with on projects and that's inspiring. You know, there's a lot of benefit to it. Do you think maybe you could do like like part-time or something or you just been like like
I could taper.
I could taper. I could also probably do consulting when I finish. Um I'm in my mid60s now. Um when I when I eventually finish I'll probably be become an ameritus professor. And so you can still have an email address. You can still have a have have a office or part of an office if you want. And and and um
but I I could do that and do consulting. No, I I
you should do is get consulting gigs that coincide with different regional burns like around the world.
Yeah, that would be that would be fun.
Yeah.
It's like you pay me to go there and then Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Um let's get to our last question. Uh so yeah, what has been the the impact of Burning Man on your life? Oh um it really opened my eyes to to real my eyes and my soul to real what real life is and living is all about and and um you know sort of that ah so many things it's like community I've met some of the most fabulous people and liberalized souls that I could ever possibly meet. Made some really dear friendships out of it. Um and um it just um it showed me really it was um just electrifying for my my soul right from that first time and taught taught me who who I really was and uh as opposed to what I should be, you know. Um and And um it's just yeah it's made life more fun and more fulfilling and um just um yeah just just really that um everything good. Uh
yeah, if those naked people on the bikes like hadn't appeared on the horizon, you just had spent a weekend at the hot So some some like weird sounds coming off in the distance. You like h like would have been a very different life. Huh.
I think it's just been liberalizing for my um soul and I've connected with um people that are my real people and it's um given me um great confidence in terms of who I am. I I was um I grew up in a in a um town called Blenham where there was it was a real redneck town back then in the in the 70s when I was a teenager and um I was bullied. I was I and um I was made to feel worthless and low self-esteem and stuff like that and not necessarily just by um by um fellow students but also by um teachers. And so that kind of I had a bit of I've had a bit of that sort of um FU in my in my mind as I've grown up and I'll I'll show them sort of thing. And that part that was part of the my driver for academic success but also um cultural success in terms of being um finding people that actually I get along with and I like them and they really like me and feel when when you like, you know, you went back with those naked people and and you and you and you stumbled across I mean like I mean how was that? I mean were people just kind of like welcoming or like how Yeah. They thought I was they they thought that we were just arriving to um go to the burn
and and just like everyone else. So very welcoming.
Yeah. And
that was a different a new welcome experience for you too, huh?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'd already by that stage Uh I think like leaving like even way even further back leaving Blenhan.
Mhm.
In you know 19 years of age and going I went down to Otago University where I am now and did my undergrad there in my masters my early jobs.
Um and um that was sort of my first experience of meeting people who um I liked and they liked me and they
and I thought you know I'm I'm not this dweeb this this, you know, useless person that I've been made to feel by the bullies.
Mhm.
And and so I started gaining confidence from then on. Um
but um you know and but then going going to the US um you know I love my love my late mother dearly but um She was kind of quite controlling and um it was nice to get away and live overseas with my with Jane who who we'd been married sort of by about about 2 or 3 years by that stage and be ourselves as a couple. And so we it it would that was quite liberating. And so you know going to the we had friends that were Grateful Dead fans, dead heads They took us to dead shows and that was quite an amazing experience.
And then going to Burning Man, it was all part of this sort of um
um cultural realization for us.
Well, do you think I know I just stumbling across an idea here now that um that the the bullying? Do you think in some way that kind of contributed to your sense of adventurousness where you're just kind of like I'm not staying here with these crazy people?
Oh, totally. I I completely agree with you there. It really
got me motiv all the more motivated. I had to overcome the low self-esteem that I had because they made me feel so worthless.
And I had to overcome that and say, "I'm better than that. I I really know in myself that I can um get out there and and do it, you know, both academically and
um culturally. So, so yeah, Burning Man was all about me discovering
more about myself.
But Burning Man wasn't the first place, right? You went to like University of Ago and you found your wife and then you went to the PhD program and then I mean it's like a progression, but
it was all part of the amazing progression that we've probably we can all tell those stories.
Yeah. No, it's it's funny. This is like a common kind of throughput for for like many many people who go to Burning Man. I'm finding in all these interview You know, people talk about the Bernie band like this is kind of like our chosen family, you know, like people come from whether it's like
broken families or like, you know, you know,
yeah, there's lots backgrounds that are Yeah. like trap them, you know, or abusive or whatever. I mean, I remember some years just find just meeting some people who were like they're runaways, you know, they were like these like like
17year-old girls, you know, when we're just like, "What are you doing here?" And they're like, "Oh, I just hitchhiked here, you know, like I'm like running away. I'm like now all these years later, I'm like I wonder what happened to those people, you know, like
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yeah. But then also like the whole regional thing of like taking it like back home and then, you know, continuing,
you know, this community like back where you live as well, right?
I know. Yeah, that was um Yeah, just continuing the the process. And so now I think well you know I've got I've I've got a apparently I've got I've been quite successful in my career. You know the metrics are there to demonstrate it.
Um but I think of um life achievements and think that the starting the Burning Man culture in New Zealand with Kiwi Burn is probably my most crowning achievement.
Wow.
As a as a person.
Mhm.
Yeah. All right. And
you still go to Kiwi Barn every year?
Every year. I've been to all of them. I still think of it as my baby. I mean, I don't do anything there apart from occasionally I'm asked to give talks or make art art projects and um we had the 20th anniversary recently and so I made well my my partner D made them for made them for me with my guidance. She's she works at a at a art facilitation center for people. people who have um mental health and addiction issues
and um so yeah, I had to do that and give some talk give a talk on the history of Kiwi Burn. Um so yeah, I go to the mall and we we we run the long pretty much the longest stand apart from the medics where the medics camp. Um we're the longest standing theme camp at Kiwi Burner. Um
what's your Cape Carnival And it's it was set up like um I I wanted to do something with with like rocket science, you know, build build rockets and have smoke bombs and things like that and call it Cape Canaveral. And then but then my co- um founder of the camp um wanted to have carnival type stuff and so we just called it Cape Carnival and so we had both and so so yeah, it's it's had rocket themes and had horse races and things like that. It's
Wow. It's good. And we the big event we we run is is something called the wine and cheese and cheesy tunes and that's where where I DJ with lots of 70s and 80s songs and then it moves on from there.
Yeah.
Wow. So the you have like a Stson hat and you go around just being like I'm the Larry Harvey of Kiwi Burn.
Oh I don't I don't do that but I do have a I do have a Stson.
There you go. You're the Kiwi Larry.
Yeah I'm a very hand hands off, but PE but I run into people who who know who I am a fair bit of the time.
Yeah.
All right. Well, this
I keep it pretty lowkey. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you for this interview. This has been amazing.
Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's great to talk, Andy. It's good to connect again.
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