EP 95 Ashes

Episode 95 with Ashes is out now! Meet Ashes who explores the transformative journey of finding lifelong community through Burning Man and its behind-the-scenes labor force known as the Department of Public Works (DPW). Ashes shares her unconventional path from arriving at the desert by herself to ultimately building iconic structures like the Man base and working on the Ranch Crew in Black Rock Station. Throughout the conversation, they examine the cultural evolution of the event, the unforgiving physical toll of desert restoration work, and the deep personal growth that comes from embracing radical challenges and living authentically.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. that kind of wooden guy. No, that Andy. Today our guest is Ashes. Welcome.

Yeah, it's good to be here.

Yeah. So, our mutual friend recommended me to you, Inani.

Uh I'm trying to remember which episode he was. He was like earlier last year. So, I think he's another one of my guests. I might have like a round two cuz he had like so much to say.

He does. He That's good stuff to say, too.

Yeah. Yeah. So, let's let's start with you. Um, so where does it all begin? Like, when was the first time you even hear about Burning Man?

Like, how do you

The first time I heard about Burning Man? Uh, I I was living in Reno at the time, and this is my past life, like 15 16 years ago,

and I was married, and I was at Walmart, and I looked around and there was nothing but people with dreadlocks and they were buying lots of fruit in bottled water. And I asked the lady at the checkout stand, I was like, "What is going on?" Like, this is very specific.

Uhhuh.

She goes, "It's Burning Man." And I was like, "What is that?" Like,

"What year was this?"

Uh, it's going to be like 2013, I think.

Oh, okay.

And I had never heard of the event at all. And so I was like, "What is Burning Man?" And she was like, "It's Burning Man." And I was like, "What does that that mean? And she goes, "It's a big party in the desert." And I was like, "Okay." That's all I

And then uh

you know after that I did some independent research because I was curious but I was you know after that I was like I want to go to this thing you know but I never like at the time I wasn't in a good situation to do it. So I didn't actually go until 2017.

Okay. And did you go just like by yourself or did you go with like a group of friends or

um I went totally by myself. which I think was a really intense way to approach the burn at first.

Yeah.

Um I had gotten my ticket just like super clandestined from a group of people uh from the man base

because I was a barista in Reno and they were my my customers and they just randomly said, "Oh, do you want a ticket for Burning Man?" I was like, "Yes, I do." So, I was gifted the ticket and then I went out there by myself with my car and a backpacker's tent and I camped way out on Jay and totally went out by myself on a bike in my underwear and it was awesome.

Well, Jay, I mean, yeah, definitely got your steps in your

but also like coming from Reno, I'm sure it's just like, oh, that's like up the street liter kind of. I mean, it's like a couple hour drive, you know? But, uh,

yeah, I could totally see that. It's like, oh yeah, just throw tent in, just go. you know, but I mean, I don't know. I always intrigued by people that like their first experience in Brainy Man is like going all by the by themselves, you know, just like that's that that's pretty adventurous.

Yeah. And I had no idea like I had this uh conception in my mind of what it was going to be like and it was nothing like that and I was very illprepared even though I did try but I had an amazing time like I had such an intense time and that's how I ended up joining DPW. Um I kept just circling back and hanging out with them and I really didn't bond with anyone else out there and I came out looking for community and it's kind of incredible to the degree of which I found community because it's still a very huge part of my life.

Yeah. Well, I mean it is kind of interesting that you looked around at this sea of like what 60 70,000 people and you're just like DPW.

They're they're my crew. Wow. So, um, yeah. So, I mean, so you were just like camping by yourself. I I So, what kind of what image of Brady Man did you have, like you said, where it didn't match? Like, what do you think it was?

Um, I I'm not even sure so long ago, but it was mostly I thought it was a big art party

and so I came out and I had some ideas as an artist that I wanted to put out, but I was like, maybe I should just slow my role and go and see what it's like. Mhm.

Um, so I'm not, you know, I feel like I thought it was more like the hippie kumbaya type thing,

like a rainbow gathering kind of thing.

Yeah. Like drum circles and fires, which it was, but it was mostly like, you know, the snark of Burning Man took me a little off guard. Um, but it's interesting because I got that more from the participants than DPW where something about PW. They weren't really snarky to me. They were just they really saw me and I think understood that I should be hanging out with them cuz they like fed me bacon

and kept telling me to come to parties and I didn't even know what DPW was at the time but I was just like yeah this is where I'm hanging out

and then you know I ended up staying for Resto. So

I I joined the cult very fast but my perception of it was just I did not think it was be so honest and raw and I was in really good shape at the time physically.

So I thought, "Oh, I can do this easily." But I could barely walk when I left.

I worked so hard. Yeah.

Which was great though. It was It was amazing.

I mean nowadays like everyone's like phone or watch or whatever you can see like, "Oh my god, I took 30,000 steps today, you know, but like like back in the day, I mean you would have no idea. You would just know that like Why do my feet like hurt? Why do my legs feel so horrible?

He's like, "My legs are just not working anymore." It's like, yeah, you just ran around for a solid week.

Yeah. It's like, what do you ordinarily do? It's like, well, I stand around. I might move like 5 10 feet this way, that way. It's like, yeah, try walking like 12 miles, you know?

Yeah. Unless, you know, going to the gym for an hour twice a week, I thought made me super badass, but then, you know, the pier really kicked my ass.

So, I think it was a very very humbling experience for me and I needed that in that moment.

Yeah. And then the whole the whole issue with like the snark kind of thing like I think that's kind of something that's kind of morphed and evolved like over the years cuz like definitely I think that was like when Bernie M was like a lot smaller you know it's like yeah it was more kind of like the more hardcorey type people and then I don't know maybe now in like later years it's like everyone's like f*** your burn f*** your burn you know. It's funny cuz I know like a lot of old-timers who are just like god I hate when people say that.

Yeah. I'm I'm starting trying not to get crusty about stuff like that, but I'm like, do you even know the history of f*** your burn? You know, and then

Yeah.

You know, there's it's things change, cultures change. Um Yeah. And here we are.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah, I mean, but it's interesting because also I took 13 years off and they came back to Bernie. I know like a lot of people, you know, who is like there was a whole recent like on law article about like oh Bernie man has like lost its soul and this and that and you know there's been like debates like online people talking about like has Bernie man lost its way is Bernie man over is Bernie man dead but like yet it still keeps happening like every year you know people like this year no one's going to buy a ticket it's like actually there was another 63,000 people there this year like doesn't seem quite dead does it you know

yeah and in my opinion I don't think it's going to die I mean it's I think it'll change and has a lot just in my time being out there.

Um, but it's an idea that was cut loose and now people, you know, a lot of us live our lives around it and

even though I am kind of taking I'm stepping back a little bit so I can focus on myself, but it's always going to be like a very important part of my life. So there's people like me out there who are always going to be pulling it off. Even if

like worst case scenario, the org were to die. I mean, you still can't stop us from going and burning a man in the desert.

Mhm. Or even just like like you said, you you have friends in Reno there that are burners, you know? I mean, the burning man isn't. I mean, I think for some people they're just I've met some people they're like, "No, no, it's just Black Rockck City and it's for that one week or couple of weeks or whatever. Like, that's my Burning Man experience. I do nothing else." And I'd say, "What about like where you live?" And they're just like, "Yeah, I don't talk to those people." Like really? You know, like

Yeah. Yeah. So, you were friends with DPW people, excuse me, people. Um, did you like Well, I take you didn't start volunteering like your very first year, but uh like how did uh how did you get involved with DPW? Did it take a little while or

Well, it was um so I was I kept hanging out with the man-based people because, you know, they're the ones who gave me their ticket and those are the only people I knew out there.

Mh. was just such a fresh little baby. Um, and so I did the thing you're not supposed to do where you I divorced my parrot at Burning Man and I had quit my job so that I could

and you wasted no time, did you?

Yeah. It was a few days then I was like, why am I at this job that sucks when I'm like I want to see the man burn? So I came back I went to Reno and I came back after quitting my job to the burn to watch the man burn

and I had no concept it's already over. Like everyone's packing up. Everything was coming down really fast at that point. So I was kind of just out in the wild going, "Oh my god, what am I supposed to do now? I don't even have a job." So I went and I swung by a man-based camp and I was just, you know, telling them my tale of woes and, you know, expressing that I didn't really know what I was doing. And they go, "You want to go to work tomorrow?" And I was so excited to help them pick up trash at the man base. So That was my first day volunteering was I think it was a few days after the man burned. Maybe Tuesday we were out there mag raking the ashes of the man.

Mhm.

And I was having such like a spiritual moment, you know, in the ashes of the man and I was covered in them. And so that's how I I got my name.

And after that I was like, "Okay, we're riding out this bit." Like, so I had already heard about Ply Restoration and I was very interested. Uh, so I signed up for it, but I was very late, so they really weren't like keen on me staying. And I thought, "Oh, I'm just going to show up every day on time, ready to go."

Mhm.

And, you know, if they kick me out, they kicked me out.

Uh, and they never did. So,

I stayed for Resto. And that's after that it just snowballed out of control.

I would have thought that anybody who showed up, they would just be like, "Please, please, like stay like

Yeah. Well, and I thought that too. So, I was like, why am I getting so much push back?" But, you know, there's a lot of politic ics involved in 2017 was a very popular year. I feel like it was the peak of Burning Man is 20 17 and 18.

So people were really fighting to get on that roster.

Mhm.

I know. And it's honestly one of the more brutal jobs I've ever done and um

yeah, even more than carpentry because it is very hard on your body and you're just walking in the sun for weeks.

Uhhuh.

Um but yeah, I I joined Resto and I loved it. And I came out there very serious. Like I had a compass on me and I was like had my work clothes like ready to go and everybody was like half naked with like trash glued on their body and stuff and I was like wow.

And so yeah, the rest is history.

Wow. I mean so how many hangers on are there like afterwards? Like were people who are just like they're not there for resto but they just don't want to leave. I mean is there a fair amount of people or

um I feel like every year there's group of people who are just trying to hang on and then I'm not sure exactly how that works. But I know that if you're cool, you'll just end up doing resto.

But if you're not, you know, or you're too you're too far gone into crazy land with Burning Man, they kind of want you to go.

But I I want to say the resto is usually around 150 people. And we always have uh I'm not sure exactly how many, but we always have a good handful of people who were just on Playa that we adopted.

Yeah. Yeah. So, do you guys actually stay on the PL? I mean, I imagine for like the first week or so, but I mean, or is it is Resto pretty much there like continuously?

Uh, we all lived in Gerlock for my time doing Rest and I think right now they are split up between Gerlock and Black Rock Station. Um, but and they might be on Shoreline, but I'm not because I haven't done Resto in a few few years. But, uh, I lived in town when I was working resto, which was great. I really liked, you know, living in town.

Mhm. Well, after you've been out in the desert for like a at least a week, right?

Yeah.

Like having like a real bathroom and a shower and everything like Yeah.

Yeah. It felt very fancy, which is hilarious in retrospect. It's not a bad town, but it's just like have being indoors with power was very luxurious.

It's a luxury resort like Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. So you said 150 is usually like resto. That's amazing. Like for such a large city, like 150 people. Like how do they do it all?

Yeah. And it's it really is miraculous every year cuz when I first started they weren't covering the entire grid, but I think they they do now and they have been like they move the entire city. And uh

DA is the manager of uh Resto He's very good at wrangling some very feral hippies into picking up trash.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how long does Resto take? Cuz right now, today it's Sunday, September 27th. Are they still out there?

They are. Um I think this is the beginning of week two of Resto. As far as I know, they have today off

and then week two starts on Monday

and then uh Saturday. Yeah. And then next Saturday is the talent show. And usually historically that would be the end of restoration, but it really depends on how the city's looking.

Sometimes they do another week.

Yeah. I can only imagine that with like all the rains and stuff, too. I mean, like, how does that work? You know, like things are be going to get like buried. I mean,

yeah.

How would you even know it's there?

Um, I did a little bit. bit of resto. I think I jumped in for one day or two in 23 when we had Mudman

and that was a very hard year for Resto because the terrain was like super uneven and you actually had to bring either a cat's paw or a hammer. Some people were using golf clubs because you'd see moop and it was cemented in the playa so you'd have to it out

and a lot of us found shoes. There was a lot of shoes stuck in that

Yeah. People just lost their shoes and just moved on with their life.

So their shoe like walking along the shoe came off and they're just like, "Well, oh well."

Yeah. Yeah.

It's gone.

Wow. So yeah. So that was your first year. So what hap what did you do when you got back to Reno? Were you like picking up the pieces?

Oh yeah, that was rough. Um because I'd never done that before. I was always a very diligent worker. I didn't just randomly quit my jobs. So I got back and at least I still had like a place to live and stuff. And I actually did the thing where I brought someone home with me from Resto cuz they had a situation that made it so they couldn't like go home.

Oh.

So, I brought I brought a hippie home with me, which was great. And she's still a good friend of mine.

Um, so it was nice because we were decompressing and it was my first decompression and we were just going through it on my couch until uh she went back home and uh After that, I had to get a job and I did. And I was just doing warehouse work, which was pretty boring, but you know.

Yeah. Job's a job. Yeah.

Yeah. Job's a job. And then after that, I was very Burning Man obsessed cuz I had just had this very profound experience in the dust.

Uhhuh.

So, I drank the Kool-Aid so hard. My whole plan was just to get back out to the desert.

Wow.

Yeah. So, I since I was friends with the fan base, I just kept emailing a foreman. I think it was a project manager, actually.

Mhm.

And I just kept emailing her saying, you know, I don't have any carpentry experience. Um, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I really like hanging out with you guys, and if you want to take me on as a volunteer, I would love to help you build in Reno.

Mhm.

And eventually they got back to me. So, I ended up uh volunteering for Manbase the next year.

I think there's a lot to that to just showing up, right? And then just being like, "We have no spot for you." It's like, "Yeah, well, here I am." It's like, you still have no spot. We'll hear and then after some period of time that's like, "Okay, you've been here every single day."

Yeah.

Yeah. Like

it's it's interesting because people used to ask me a lot how I did that. And I was like, "I asked." And then I was very polite about it, but I was just very like persistent on saying, "I'm available. You guys can teach me whatever."

Um, and because I lived in Reno, you know, and I could show up one or two days a week for free. They were like, "Yeah, that's awesome. We could use the help." And I was, you know, a fresh face when they were working really long hours. I was always very excited. So, they liked having me around.

So, how many people is the man-based crew? And then like in Reno during the year, like how many I mean because it must be like fluctuating levels like on Playa I would imagine be more than like the year round crew, right?

Yeah. Um in Reno at the time the pre-build was done in Reno and it was six to eight people. I believe with me included.

Mhm.

And they were working six 10 hour shifts. So they were really going for it.

Oh wow.

Yeah. And they that small crew does the majority of the build uh pre-fabricating all the pieces. And then on Playa, you get this huge influx of people who show up to build, which is nice because the pre-build crew is exhausted.

But, you know, we've put in a lot of work at that point. But then everybody comes together and we snap it together like Legos, which is a very simple way of, you know, putting what we do out there. But yeah, it comes together really fast once you get on Playa because you get so many extra hands.

And I I want to say, well, during my time on man base, which was 18 and 19, um on Playa, the entire man pavilion was done with about a hundred people with all the different crews

with like lighting, sound, all the artists that put their stuff on it. and the carpenters.

Yeah. So, what is like the the life cycle of the man base then? Like like when do they start like from like when they first conceive it like okay this is they drawn a napkin like yeah I want to build this big tree on the top you know like

to like then like okay now we have like architectural or like CAD design. I don't I mean how do they do that?

Um one of my good friends is actually the drafter who made it last year and I believe she was working on it. um January on uh last year's man base, the big tree, which was really freaking cool. Like that was a very impressive man base. Um so depending on like what your role is, like the

I guess the nerds start working like right in the beginning of the year

and then the carpenters don't come in until I want to say uh April.

Okay.

But I think it varies depending on what's going on like the build.

Hm. I mean, is there a difference between like the people who are designing it and the people who are building it? Like like the builders would be like go to the designers. It's just like you you can't build that that way.

You know, I'm I was always such a low-level grunt of a carpenter if I was an apprentice. So, I I have no idea. But, uh I do know that they have many meetings and they, you know, we consult engineers and then the foreman comes back and lets them know whether or not things practical.

Um, but yeah, mostly that's above my pay grade.

So, they start building it in April. How long does it take them to prefab everything?

Uh, it's at least 3 months. Um, sometimes four.

Mhm.

Uh, I want to say that we were building the man in April and then after that, which is like an all hands thing, you have a lot of volunteers who come through to build the man because it's a big ceremony. And then after that, we get the shop to prefab all the uh parts.

Oh, okay. And are those like two different crews like the man base and then the man or are they kind of kissing cousins?

They are kissing cousins.

Yeah, I would say yes. Uh cuz a lot of man-base uh they end up building the man and saying we call it man crew who actually builds the man itself, but a lot of them just come in for that and it's kind of this allar crew of random burners, which I loved. And you would never like that's one of my favorite things about Burning Man is you don't know what these people do outside of the burn.

Mhm.

And uh Yeah. David Silverman, the creator of the Simpsons is on, man.

The flame the flaming tuba guy, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I'd always like just have to keep my s*** together when he's around because I was like, that's one of my heroes.

And where do they build the man? Is it like in Reno or is it out at Black Rock Station?

Uh it used to be in Reno. know, they recently switched back to using Black Rockck Station, which I think is great because it gets more of the community, like just to see what they do,

you know, and I feel like the Black Rock Station um is kind of the heart and soul of Burning Man,

yeah, it's, you know, it's where all the stuff is and that's where we we kind of pull it off from there.

Mhm. Yeah. But I I just imagine like building the man is like a very almost kind of like ceremonial kind of thing. I mean, after so many years, it's like, you know, everybody probably know I mean, it's it I'm sure quite a lot of the people who are involved are just like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've built like 12 men before this." You know, it's like,

and but um yeah, I can imagine like a lot of people like wanting to like there's the like being way too many cooks in the kitchen.

Yeah. And I think that is true to a degree, but um so I was working at Black Rockck Station uh 20 22 through 24. And so I was there in I think it was 23 and 24 when they built the man.

And it was really fun to watch from the outside. Um cuz I had a different role, but they also like

they were like a very well fine-tuned machine at putting that man out. So even though they did have a lot of people and you know there's always people who jump in last minute, uh they're very efficient at cranking out that man.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Do they like just have the kind of like I wouldn't say like celebrity or or or people like kind of show up and you're just like yeah just give Joe like have him you know cut one piece over here and you could say yeah I helped build the man like

I think there is a little bit of that because uh you know and that's that's part of why I don't do it anymore is me like I could if I wanted to but it's like I have that glory. I did it and it was amazing like

building the man and then watching it earn in front of 80,000 people is it's a it's an experience you can't describe. So you really do want in my opinion you want people to put their hands on the man.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I can just imagine that the one year forget what year it was early 2000s when the then the man burned early

and then and then they were the like quick

and and how I mean it was like within a couple of days or something, right? I mean it was just like just banged it out, right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, as much as that was probably hard in the moment, people loved that because, you know, they had to come in and be heroes and build another man. So, they got to build it twice that year.

Oh, yeah. Like I can imagine they just been like, "Oh, no. This is not a problem. This is

Yeah.

This is a feature, not a bug." Like, yeah.

Yeah. What's it? They call it type two fun where in the moment it seems hard, but in retrospect you're like, "That was awesome."

Well, that explains a lot of Burning Man, don't you think? It's just kind of like the Uhhuh.

It's like the adversity being out in the desert and it's like, oh, it's hot and now it's dusty, now it's windy, now it's rainy.

Yeah.

And I don't know, and I think as the years gone have gone by, like I don't know, there was this also this article about like they're talking about just like the inflation of Burning Man and you're just like, oh, everything getting like so expensive. And I was thinking about it myself because when I first started going in the 90s, like I was living in San Francisco and then I moved to Hawaii and then of course coming from Hawaii, you it's like you got, you know, it's more expensive. But Oh yeah.

I mean I mean going from Reno I mean that would probably be the cheapest of all because you just get in your car and go, you know,

but I mean I think there's like a sliding scale. It's like you could do it anywhere from,

you know, they pay you

right because you're an employee, you know,

to like, you know, you be like some of these like glamorous plugandplay camps where people pay like tens of thousands of dollars. And like to me that I think is like the real inflation of Bernie man. It was like whereas M you know like in the early days like oh people were just showing up in their cars and had tents and like you know like maybe there would be an RV. Now it's like camps that are just like 50 RVs all lined up and like those giant like like generators and then you're like well what's your interactivity? What do you guys do in this camp? And it's like we have a bar, we do yoga and we have a DJ.

Yeah.

And we do lectures, you know, you're like

Yeah. Yeah. And I

Okay.

I'm not anti- theme camp. Uh the plug-andplays are rough, but I feel like in a way they're kind of robbing themselves of the burn.

Exactly.

Like a lot of the spirituality is in the suffering and then putting yourself in a situation that's uncomfortable and seeing how you do is really how you learn about yourself out there.

Oh yeah.

So it's in a way I want them to show up because the ply is not going to let them get away with it being easy. So,

well, like your experience learn

Yeah. like your experience like you know you had ideas going into it and I'm sure everybody does and then you come out like I don't think anyone comes out of it just being like that was exactly like I thought it was. I am no different than when I came in the

you know I just showed up and it's exactly like it is.

Yeah. And I think that's part of the magic of it is you cannot predict your burn burn or like if you're going to have a good time or not. Not. And I still get going out there anxiety of like, God, what's going to happen to me this year? But, you know, like if it's good burn or bad, like a lot of times it's not up to you.

Um.

Oh, yeah.

But I still I think it's worthwhile to put yourself in the uncomfortable situation of trying to navigate those moments. Um, but yeah, I go out there. I think because I live in Reno, I can pull it off for like a thousand bucks, which is, you know,

Yeah. Yeah.

Pretty damn good.

Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's not working there, you know. But

Well, yeah. Yeah. But I mean that's the thing is is like I mean you can go for as as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it, you know, and definitely it's like if you're flying from the other side of the planet and you know you want to have like an ebike, you you want to do all this stuff. It's like Yeah.

Pay a pretty penny for that. Yeah.

Yeah. And I bought an ebike this year. Um I have bad knees, so I'm just getting older and I'm at the point where I can, you know, I have to accept that I need the ebike and it really did make my burn awesome. So, I'm very pro eike now. Uh even though I didn't used to be.

Yeah. Yeah,

it does help.

Well, I think it's like once you get on it the first time and you're just kind of like, oo, like this is nice. Like,

yeah, less effort.

Yeah, but also it's I want to go to the trash fence. It's like, okay, well, let's start walking.

Yeah, that's part of how I burnt myself out my first burn is there was uh an art art piece way out by the trash fence. I want to say it's the tree of Taenerys and I kept going back to it and that was a hell of a journey on a bike, like a regular ass bike. But, uh, yeah, the ebikes really have changed the game.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you you go your first year, then you you work on the man-based crew. So when you came back, you said you got a job at a warehouse like But

how did you like uh organize your life to go back again like the next year? I mean, did you just take off like was like like a week and go back or or like did your your your job being like, "Oh yeah, take off a couple weeks and

Well, they were very like I was just letting them know I was being way too honest with the situation and I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to be going back to the burn to work if I can get a job.

Um so that first year I wasn't sure how hard it would be to get like paying work out there.

Mhm.

Um and they were, you know, just kind of distant about it and like whatever this Burning Man person won't shut up about Burning Man. And then that was not a great job for me anyway. So I just quit my job and then started volunt well. Okay. So first I was working uh the warehouse job didn't work out. I got a job at Tesla. I was working at Tesla a lot and then in my free time I was volunteering for Manbase

and then um yeah Tesla was 100% not having my Burning Man nonsense. So they told me that I wasn't Yeah, they were which was frustrating but they told me that I wouldn't get my job back if I was gone for two months. It's like that's just quitting your job. And I was like okay. And so I told them I would try to come back after the burn and uh I didn't which I think worked out for the best. But at first I was literally working at Tesla and working 10our shifts as a volunteer. And I don't know how, like now that I'm older, I don't know how the hell I was pulling that off.

But after that, you know, that was my first full year working for DPW, I had to come back and get another job. So it started this very unhealthy cycle for me of I pretty much gave up my whole life every time I went out there to work DPW.

I mean, I would just imagine by this day and age. I mean, even 2017, 18, 19, you know, that the Reno area like in businesses and and companies would kind of I mean, a you would know what Burning Man is and B would have prior experience with with employees mean it's like I'm going off to Burning Man for two months and they'll be like I would imagine they would just be like I want another one.

Yep. That's exactly It really does hurt me in terms of career in Reno. I feel In other cities, they might be more pro Burning Man.

Really?

It would be the opposite. But

it's hard to say because I've I've lived here for so long. But I know that I kind of need to end up at a business where they like Burning Man or else they're just not going to hire me

because it's at this point it's all over my resume. So yeah, and it's I have to I communicate with everybody and let them know that I'm not going out there as much so I have a better time. getting jobs now, but I mean it was I pretty much had to work temporary jobs uh at warehouses, you know, precoid to pull off going to Burning Man every year.

Wow. And so then like you would just be kind of like a seasonal employee for at Burning Man or something.

Yeah, I was precoid

and then after COVID I I really, you know, like we all missed Burning Man a lot during those years. So um my friend Weld Boy uh got a job running Black Rock Station and when I heard that he had gotten that job and I think it was 21 um I was in communication with him about work but then in 22 I just kind of had my fill of reality camp as I put it and I sent him an email saying I'll get whatever job you want me to do just I want to come out there so I ended up doing like a six-month contract at the ranch in 22 so it's almost my full-time job at that point.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I really went for it.

What's it like living out there?

It's very strange. Um it's like being at Burning Man for months, which is good and bad, but uh

you know, you're just very isolated and your experience very much depends on whoever is there that season. So it is, you know, it's just like Burning Man where It could be really good or it could be really bad and it's not necessarily in your control. Um, but it is very nice from a perspective of someone like me who I didn't know any of these skills before I went in and they just

were totally fine with that and taught me everything. You know, I learned carpentry and I learned how to drive heavy equipment

and yeah, the amount I've learned from being out there that long was it's a lot, but it's definitely hard and I don't think I could do it again, but in that moment of my life, it really did serve me well.

Has that translated into like uh any jobs after that or did you use those skills and or did

uh No, but that's mostly my choice at this point. Um I got injured in 24 with my knee injury and I kind of decided to take more chill jobs after that

and I've been letting my body heal

and I can get back out there and get like carpentry jobs. jobs and uh forklift jobs now if I wanted but honestly I don't because I I went really hard into stressful work because it is stressful working at Black Rock Station.

Um so I work at a a healing resort now at a hot springs.

That's what I've chosen to do with my time.

Yeah.

Um so yes, it does translate into more work. I've just not chosen that path right now, but I probably will again. Yeah. And another thing that I've heard from various people and DPW people is that like people who work DPW or like they go out there for a couple of months or they they work like year round or whatever like um you can actually I guess there's like various credentials like whether it's like machine operator or this or that or welding or I don't know what you know but it's like you can actually kind of like improve not just improve your skills but you can also like like get experience for like credentiing or something. Is that true?

Um I I mean I did get my OSHA card out there and I got forklift certified on I want to say it's two different machines, maybe three. So it is like professionally very valuable. Um I think I probably could have gotten more credentials uh through DPW actual. Like the ranch really is bare bones. They don't have a lot of that stuff, but when DPW comes in like, oh, I got propane certified too from Propaneiac. So That's cool. Like this is all good stuff on my resume.

Yeah.

So, uh it really was a good life choice, you know, if you want to be in the trades and I was trying to be a jack of all trades. Still am.

Um you can learn a lot of stuff out there.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny because I think a lot of people think it's just like, oh, the the org is just like using and abusing and throwing away these people. They're just taking these like itinerant like like like workers and just like using them up and throwing them away. But it's like I mean

I don't know. Maybe some truth to that, you know, but also it's like you, like I said, you can you can learn things, you can get skills, you can get credentials, you can meet people, you know, you make connections and

yeah, and it's like the friends I've made out there at the ranch I'm going to have for the rest of my life. And it's a choose your own adventure camp. So, you can choose to not be productive while you're there and just work and then, you know, have nothing at the end of the season, but you can also choose to get all these level up skills. So, I feel like both things are true. Like it's you can do well for yourself out there and the org does kind of use us. Um I do wish they were paid better and had more access to benefits.

Mhm.

Um but there is, you know, there's a certain freedom to living out in the desert with all your friends, you know, and you can get away with a lot out there that you couldn't get away with at a normal job. So, I have a hard time really feeling feeling bad, you know, for people who choose that cuz I don't feel bad for myself. I had a great time. I learned skills,

you know, and a lot of that was my own doing, you know, like the the gnarly stuff. So,

and it's it's something that we choose when we go out there, you know, and

uh you can negotiate more pay. It is very hard. Um but I you know, there's a lot of us who are always fighting to get more pay and more benefits and more nice things.

Yeah. What would be like the mix of people would you say like between people who are there for like I said like not so interested in the credentiing or career advancement or whatever and other people who are um well it's it's funny because you get people um who go out there and want to learn stuff but lately uh we've gotten a lot of people who are very experienced and they just want to work for Burning Man because it's not you know as serious other jobs so they come in very skilled

and then either learn new skills or use those skills. Um, so it's a it's a mixed bag. We get a lot of vagabons lately. There's a lot of like van lifers who end up out there

and you know just people who are transient

uh the world in the offse. So I feel like that's the majority of people is the ones who want they want to work really hard for six months but they want six months off to go you know to Europe or Thailand or wherever they go.

Mhm. And do they like I I take a Brady Man's probably not the only event. I'm sure there there's like a kind of a festival circuit some of these people work at too, right?

Yeah, definitely. Like Lightning in a Bottle is a big one that uh we used to lose people to every season about the same time because they would take time off from Burning Man to work Lightning in a bottle. Uh and I never did that because I was like there's like one party at a time. But uh yeah, they definitely uh hit the the festival circuit pretty hard. And I used to too. I just am I'm getting old and tired. So

hard. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I just wonder like if is there like competition between the the festivals, you know, where just you know where like the talk of DPW is like, "Oh, did you hear lightning bottle just like you know up their hourly rate?" It's like really how much you know.

Yeah. And I there is some of that a little bit. Um but I feel like mostly since Burning Man has the long contracts They end up getting most of us.

Mhm.

Um but it is really nice to jump off just to get off. You know, you get too lost in the sauce and you need to step away and then when you come back you appreciate it more.

Yeah. You don't want to let people leave.

So I take it you don't want to be like a a year round employee of Burning Man.

I don't and that's just you know that's my choice. I have a lot of friends who are

um even though there's really not that many positions. uh for year round, but I want to appreciate the event more and I don't want to be as jaded because you learn a lot. Uh my old boss, well boy, was telling me um before I I stopped working out there, he said, "You have seen how the sausage is made." And I was like, "I have. It makes it less fun."

So I would like to forget how the sausage is made and just go to the party.

Just enjoy the sausage. like don't think about what went into it like but I know what's going into this thing like yeah

so he is

it's that big now Burning Man is big enough it is a a corporation to an extent so they they've got to do business and that is soul crushing for people like me who are a little you know idealistic about it so

yeah it is

yeah it is what it is yeah so you did man base for what two years you said Uh yeah. Well, I I volunteered for them for Strike in 2017, but I didn't even know what that's what I was doing.

Um and then uh 18 and 19 I built The Man and then, you know, COVID happened so I did nothing. And then I ended up uh on Ranch Crew for Black Rockck Station 22 through 24.

What does that involve being in the Ranch Crew?

Ranch Crew is a very interesting job. Be um somebody once told me the ranch is like a s***** monastery and if that through that analogy we were kind of the monks who were maintaining it which was a lot of fun because it was you know a s***** monastery but uh I mostly ran a forklift and you direct people when they arrive because there's a lot of people who are coming to check out their infrastructure and like plan the burn so they come out for work weekends. So you help people navigate that. Um, you manage like the basic infrastructure stuff of the generators and you know just like water and power and everything that keeps the place running.

And is this like all like organizational people or is or is this also like like artists or or like theme camps and people come out there and do their stuff too?

It used to be theme camps and then the 360 uh was born and now all the theme camp stuff is at the 360 and the ranch as far as I know is just infrastructure stuff

like for the workers.

So how does that work like with the 360 like like if you are a theme camp like how does that work? I mean you can kind of go out there and like work on stuff and then and where do you store it all?

Uh that's right now it is I think just a storage facility but I think the long-term plan is to make it like a workshop where you can build stuff out there. Um or at least that's what I was told when I first joined. Uh what is called NVO now. It's the branch that runs, you know, all that stuff is now NVO.

Um yeah, their original goal was to have the 360 be a living facility and a workshop and a storage facility, which is a great idea, but they're still working out the kinks on that.

Yeah. And the storage is that that their container program thing like uh

Yeah.

Yeah.

My friends still work there doing that. So, it's just I think you can pay per month. Um, and then you can access your stuff and it's right there. And then they forklift the storage container onto a truck and deliver it to your camp on Playa.

That sounds awesome.

It really is like in terms of if you're doing something big out there. It's just nice to be able to have, you know, you don't have to ship it all the way from Reno.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard it it's like it's really hard to like if if you're looking now to get one like a year'sl long wait list. or something.

Yeah. I don't know. I would assume so cuz it's a that's a sweet deal.

Yeah. Cuz I'm sure there's only so many, right? I mean, they're not going to be like, well, I'll just have an unlimited amount. Like every theme camp will have its own storage container. I mean,

that would be crazy.

Yeah. And I think that they would like to expand, but they have to um you know, it's a large project and they have to set up the infrastructure and make sure the county is happy cuz you know, there. Yeah, you're not doing it wrong.

Yeah.

So, there there's some definite growing pains, but I think it'll in the long run be a really good thing for um the Birding Man community.

Yeah. Well, it's funny because I think people think like, "But it's Gerlac. It's the Black Rock Desert. What do you mean permit?"

Yeah. Oh, yeah. The county still they still care.

Yeah. Well, probably like, you know, the sheriff's department, you know. Like a lot of different people, they they kind of see this event, the the the crazy circus rolling into town. They just like see dollar signs. They're ching ching ching ching.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, I just remember like in the early days like going there and then like successive years going and then seeing like the like oh the the local police cars or Humvees, you know, it's like wow those are expensive vehicles and they're all shiny and brand new.

Well, when I was since I worked out there so long. I was technically a resident of Gerlock. Like I even voted in their elections and uh in the off season it is a very tiny quiet town with one cop. It's just during the event it really does explode with law enforcement and just everybody's eyes on the tiny town.

Um I think yeah and the way we used to live in town uh was not great for the locals. You know there would be 150 people. Let's we would double the population. of Gerlock, but now the way they do it, uh, people live at Black Rock Station and then hopefully eventually they'll live at the 362. And so that's just a big pressure off that tiny town.

Do they ever have like any meetings like with you guys? It's like, okay, we're about to like move you guys all into Gerlac. Like, you know, think the counselor from from South Park like we're about to go into Gerlac, okay? Like, no, do it like we do out in the play, okay? Like like don't get drunk and get in fights.

Yes, absolutely. We have like a DPW morning meeting and uh there's a woman, her name is Nips, and she's she was uh manager out there for the fluffers for a long time and she'd always go up and say, "Cover your nips in town, like wear clothes." You know, we'd roll off a resto uh you know, half naked and dirty. And the locals were just not a big fan of that. So, They definitely made sure that we were on our best behavior.

Yeah.

As good as possible considering who we all were.

Yeah. Well, imagine that the local residents of Gerlock have like a specific budget of tolerance for all of this stuff where it's like, okay, for this

week, 10day period, whatever, you know, it's like, okay, we understand we're going to be inundated with these people, but afterwards, like after they're gone, it's like it's our time back again. Right.

It is. Um well, and it's they were always very excited for October because that's when we'd all leave. Uh and then NVO came in and uh since we're out there for such long contracts, um the town started calling NVO uh never October because they were kind of frustrated. But I think since things have been moved out of Gerlock, they seem happier. At least the people that I know because I do know a lot of the uh the people and a lot of that town is now exurners or people who still go who used to work there a lot and they just moved to town.

Yeah. I'm just imagilrated.

Yeah. Just imagining them like starting like a some sort of like October celebration just be like like October 7th shall be known as like you know we get our town back day.

Well yeah and I've uh I grew up in Nevada so Gerlock is very typical of small towns and they have a lot of their own culture

that they do and they have a lot of hunters that come through. There's a lot going on there all the time.

So when we stop doing our thing, they just go back to their own brand of, you know, fun

and you know, I have gotten to participate in that a little bit and it's great. I still go back there in the winter and hang out.

You know, I

What's it like in the winter?

It's quiet. It's lovely. I've seen pictures with snow on the ply and it's kind of like oo you know that looks beautiful.

Yeah. And I've never lived out there in the winter. Um but I I always come back to visit and it is cold. Um it's in October and November the cold winds are very hard to work in. Um cuz I did work out there for the full month of October one year and I had a really hard time getting anything done because it was just so cold. Um but if you're not, you know, trying to get work done. It's a cool place to hang out. Like you, you know, you go to Bruno's, the food quality is much better in the winter because they have they don't buy the cheaper meat. You get better meat from Bruno's

really?

Yeah. Like I The food quality goes way up in the winter

at Bruno.

Is that just kind of like a monetary thing or they're just kind of like what are these burners? They're getting cheap cuts of meat.

Well, and I think they're also just trying to rake it in as much as they can. Um

ah I just know the cheeseburger tastes better in winter and you know you can actually sit behind the bar and you talk to the locals

and you know you don't even talk about the burn which is kind of refreshing.

Yeah. I'm sure after some period of time they're just kind of like okay no more of that, right? Like

Yeah. Like I've actually been told to not talk about it at the bar before the locals were like okay that's enough.

Yeah. It's funny because like when I'm on the playa like I I meet people and you start talking and then like I remember always just being like Oh, so like where are you from? And they'd be like in San Francisco or whatever. And I was like, oh, what do you do? And then like I I don't want to talk about out there. Like I'm here now. You know, like okay, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

There's like the flip side of that where it's like, no, no,

pretty done.

Yeah. It's like we're going to talk about cows and and wind surfing. It's like awesome.

Yeah. And well, I'm just wondering like if people like randomly show up like other times of the year and they're just kind of like this is where Burning Man is. It's like this is Gerlac or maybe even people from other countries like German tourists. You're like this is Burning Man. Yeah. You know, be like no this is Gerlac now.

Yeah. And I I've I'm sure there are but I've never run into them. But I have the uh the hunters are very prominent in the winter

and so even in Reno at all the different jobs I've had um I've met people who know Gorlock from the hunting. And it's something that we don't really think about, but it's really good hunting out there.

So, well, what do they hunt?

I think it's chucker.

Chucker.

And it's Yeah. And I don't I don't hunt, so I don't know much about it, but I'm pretty sure this is like a really hard It's a hard bird to hunt. So, these people are really into it because it's challenging.

Yeah.

Chucker.

I I want to say it's it's close to the quail.

Ah,

yeah. And then there's the deer hunters as well, which I thought was Great. Because uh driving to the ranch, there's so many deer that it's kind of like a a right of passage to kill a deer with your car driving back and forth to the ranch, which I have done. And

that could be dangerous, but yeah. Yeah,

it's super sketch. Like I got really lucky with mine, but I have friends who've totaled their cars out there.

But yeah, the hunters are they're a huge fixture in town.

Yeah. What do they say? We're always hearing this saying it's like kill the rabbits.

You know, it's like if you're Don't swerve for suicidal bunnies because the rabbits do run directly under your wheels and if you swerve you risk dying, but the rabbit's going to go under your wheels anyway. So I've my friends have given me s*** for this because I will not swerve for anything and they're like, "You're just mowing down rabbits." I'm like, "Yeah, it's because I've been told I've been taught to do that."

Well, also like on the high highways there like there's a lot of places like there's no shoulder like like right off the asphalt. It goes like down and it's like, you know, unless you have like some sort of four-wheel drive vehicle or something, it's like you could what? Did you be stuck out there for like a long time before anybody comes by, right?

Yeah. And I've had a lot of friends flip their vehicles out there um between the animals and just the bad road. And I know they are doing work to make it better,

but you know, progress is slow and you just have to be careful.

Like,

well, it's not like they're gonna make the 447 a sixlane highway or anything, you know, like Yeah. They're just trying to make it more smooth, which I was very appreciative of.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's a curvy road out in the middle of nowhere, so you just got to watch it. And it's, you know, there's a lot of us like I really hadn't spent a lot of time in the country

before that. I was, you know, a city kid. So, I kind of had to be acculturated to the ways of a small town in the middle of nowhere. You

just to keep your s*** together.

So, where So, where did you grow up? You said you've been living in Nevada your entire life.

Uh, I grew up in Boulder City, Nevada. which is just south of Vegas. And uh I moved to Reno when I was 22 to go to UNR. And uh honestly, there's something about Reno. I've just This is my town. Like

it's kind of my s*** hole. And it is getting very gentrified.

But yeah, it's Yeah, it's growing very fast.

Why is that?

It's I don't think it could land all the It's squarely in the feet of Bernie man though, right? I mean, it's probably like a lot other

uh it's the big industry, Tesla, uh Amazon. I'm not even quite sure. Sometimes when it's like I go out and I'm like, "God, there's so many people everywhere." I'm like, "What do these people even do for jobs?" So, I think it's the tech industry.

Um, Burning Man isn't to blame for it, but I will say that when towns get gentrified, it always feels like it starts with a huge art scene. And Burning Man did bring that And that's part of what's keeping me here is, you know, you have the generator, uh, you just have there's art coming out of this city all the time. There's lots of events and, you know, there's there didn't used to be public art everywhere. And then we started putting all these pieces from the burnout

and then it felt like the gentrification came next. But I don't really blame Burning Man for that squarely. There's Reno's awesome. It was kind of a secret that it was awesome for a long time. So now people know Screw you Bernie man for making Reno better.

Yeah, they really did.

But that's kind of a common

a lot of culture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's kind of a common feature in a lot of places, right? I mean, it's like you could look at any major like in urban area and just be like, oh, you pick like the the blighted like postindustrial area, whatever. It's always like the artists who move in first cuz they're like, oh, it's cheap housing. It's like, oh, I can get this like warehouse space, you know, for pennies, you know, and then they fix it up and and then they make it and it's like chic and cool and then that's where people want to be and then like other people like ooh it's the artsy district you just like I want to be in the artsy and then you know that's the natural life cycle

there's still a lot of you know like the grimy punk rock scene here and the poor artists who you know put their stuff out at a booth and sell it. So I feel like the art community is still thriving like we're not it's not San Francisco by any means and I I Hope we're very far off from being that. I think it's maintaining

Yeah.

a small community enough that artists can still thrive here.

Yeah. Well, a lot of places like Seattle, too. Very similar. We've hearing people talk about that. Yeah. Just

rents just like out of control, you know.

All right. Um All right. Well, uh we've had our first two questions. Let's get to the last one. Uh so, what's been Brady Man's impact on your life?

Oh, it's a lot. Um, I'd mentioned that I went out there looking for community and I found it and I didn't. That was the most profound thing that's happened to me is I just have this huge friend group now. Um, which is great. Um, I've just never, you know, felt popular now. I have so many friends. It's almost a logistic issue sometimes. Um, which is nice. But I have a tremendous amount of support through that and encouragement. Um, it's really opened up doors for me artistically where I feel like before I went to Burning Man, I was always an artist, but I was more afraid. Whereas the burn taught me to not be afraid and just go for it and like throw your whole self behind an art piece. And that's uh it's even giving me chills to talk about. Like you just pure send. So it's really just and it's it's made it hard because when you do that, you're going to have the flip side of it is you're broke, you know, because I'm sending it so hard for my art and my my life goals.

So, there's definitely, you know, aspects of it of struggle. I don't have as much money as I used to,

but it's it's also encouraged me to be a vagabond. Um,

I spent a couple years just traveling, like couch surfing,

and I would never would have done that before. I was terrified of doing that. And I was like, "No, I'm just going to go out into the universe and see what happens with no plan."

And I would have never done that before. I to Burning Man.

So, the couch surfing, are these just like fellow burners or are there just random people?

Um, it's fellow burners. It's my friends. Um, I don't think I've ever ended up on a stranger's couch, but I don't mind. Like, I've I've I rent places now with people that I've never met before. It's another thing I would have never done. Um, so now that I'm not, you know, couch surfing, I don't mind meeting strangers. Like, you know, Burning Man embraces the stranger. So,

yeah. Yeah.

I just keep making more friends.

No, but it is funny. There's this whole like thing where I don't know. I I made this sticker that I was giving out of Brett Man. Um it was kind of actually I kind of ripped it off from uh that this the the Star Wars series Andor, you know, where basically they had the the how the one rebel could tell the one person's a rebel. Their catchphrase was I have friends everywhere.

So I made the stick with like

Yeah. No, but that's kind of like how Brett Man is like you go even like one time and you come back and you can and you're just like you're a burner. I'm a burner. You're a burner. You're a burner. And and like

people will do anything, you know, just like come stay at my house, borrow my car. Let's have some food.

But also just kind of opening you up to this this thing. It's like, well, I'm going to go to Barcelona. What are you going to do there? I don't know. Let me see what burners are there,

you know? And then you hook up with some people you've never met before in a foreign country. But it's like, h how do you feel safe with these people? They're just complete random strangers. It's like, well, they're a burner. Yeah. Well, it's something about that like it's taken away so much fear of the unknown and I did not see that as a consequence of going out there. But I am eternally grateful for it because that's how I live my whole life now. I'm like and I've I've I've formed this it's not a bad habit but it's a habit of challenging myself and I'm like really afraid of something. I'm like now I have to do it. And that's it's Burning Man taught me that if if you're afraid of something like

don't There's a reason. Yeah. And you should investigate that because you're going to learn about yourself in that and just challenging yourself to that degree is very satisfying.

Oh yeah. So before you I'm sorry. But before you went to Bernie man like did you have many friends or like what was your friend scene or life like before?

Honestly like not very many at all. Um they caught me right after my divorce and I was just flailing in the universe. I had no idea what I was doing and I was I came came back to Reno cuz I owned my house and I was just trying to figure it out. So, I had like two or three friends that I talked to on a regular basis and they're mostly my co-workers and now it's just I have so many and it's great because you just having that kind of community I feel like is the way humans should be. Like something about where culture is now, we just don't have a huge community and I think humans do better in a you know, a squad so that we can support each other.

Yeah. I mean, maybe like when things were smaller and people lived in like smaller communities. I mean, there's something about can't remember what it was called, but it's like any any group larger than 150 people, it's like increasing more than it's like you don't really know people like so 150 or less. It's it's kind of like it's like everybody knows everybody. Your reputation is is king, right?

Yeah. And that's it is, you know, that's where I wonder if you know the burn being so big I kind of think it's bad and I think it's better when it's small because people interact with each other more and it's you know I keep being told to go to regionals more

for that so you get the tighter community but I feel like in the big city we form our little you know our little pods of humans.

I mean there's a Reno regional. Do you ever do anything with those guys or

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much the only one I go to. Um you know I work a lot when I'm not at Burning Man so I don't get to be involved but I'm definitely going and I'm organizing a group of my friends who are coming off the pla for

resto go to decompression.

Oh, is it Reno decompression?

Yeah, it's the Reno decompression is it's our regional.

Yeah. Well, I could imagine like Reno would probably at least amongst the regionals

like a very kind of special place because it's like it's like yeah well there's the regional community but then there's also kind of like the very close like like like or you know community or whatever you know.

Yeah. Well, and it also is a good way to that a lot of the locals here are not a big fan of Burning Man. So, it's a good way to bring them in and show them that it's

it's not that big a deal. It's just a fun party where you can run around and look at art.

Yeah. I mean, how do the locals like in Reno and Ger like like think of burners? Because I know like this year there's been all like the fires and at least on like social media and stuff, people were just, you know, like all incense. They're just like like Reno's on fire. Like how dare you go to Bernie man and have a good time like while these people are like, you know, forced their homes because of fire.

Well, and it's I kind of have mixed feelings about it. I'm very curious how many of those people who were saying that were actual locals because most of us know that that is a huge amount of money it brings into our economy. Like tremendous.

Mhm.

Um so as much you don't like telling people not to go buy what they need at Walmart was kind of weird.

Yeah.

And I'm like that's that's not good for our economy. But um so it's my opinion as a local that you should come through town and buy stuff. I mean, it's

you never want to follow Yeah. and just don't be a jerk while you're here. And like patronizing businesses is good for us, you know, just do it the right way. Like our whole economy really does it gets a huge boost.

Um,

so I don't I don't think it was bad for people to come through like when it was happening out by Nixon in that fire and then you know the the Pyute tribe was telling us just to go around. And I'm like, that's fair. Like, just don't drive through. There's fire crews.

Um, and it stresses out the community. So, I was like, that's that's a valid thing. But yeah, telling people not to shop at the stores was weird.

And at the end of the day, we have we're not on an island. Like, they can send trucks with more stuff.

Yeah.

We weren't hurting because of of the burners.

I know. I just I remember seeing some comments. I don't know if it was like people being like snarky or whatever. But they're like, it's like, you know, people are like refugees from these fires. It's like they need cases of beer, you know, like uh

Yeah. And

I don't know if that's what they do.

It was a very devastating year for fires, but that's not this isn't new for Reno, and it didn't used to be as covered by the news when we had huge fires. Um, so it's just it's part of living on the west coast.

I mean, do you think that's the influence of Burning Man? like that there was so it was big in the news this year.

I think in my years that I've been going to the burn every single year the media tries to make us look terrible and then it's always and there's also like this big thing like we have to overcome some adversity and it it just feels like you know heroic story arc b******* and they also just want us to look bad.

Yeah.

And I'm not sure what the motive is behind it because I think think it's great for the community. Um I don't think Burning Man hurts Reno in any way.

Um I think it's it's grown the city in a really positive way.

Mhm.

Um but yes, the media does like to make us look bad, especially the Mudman year. I had so many family members calling me going, "Are you okay?" And I'm like, "I'm great." Like I have more resources here in this mud pit than I do anywhere else on the planet.

And then there's like the whole

time delay of where it's just like, "Are you okay?" It's like, "That was like a week ago."

Yeah. And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm literally at a party with all my friends right now.

Great."

But also, when it comes to like the media, it's like the whole like it it bleeds, it leads and kind of thing. It's like they're not going to have stories about just like, "Oh, look, the weather was wonderful and everyone's happy." You know, it's like,

yeah,

even this year like people like, "Oh my god, rain apocalypse at Bernie man 2026, you know, and everything." I mean, I was I actually wasn't there this year, you know, take I took my son off to college this year. I had to miss it. But um from everything I heard it was like one day or like one morning or something and it was like and it dried out by the afternoon or something. I was like oh like

that's it. You know I mean even last year it's like oh yeah I mean I was stuck in the gate line for

2020 hours of the rain like

Yeah. But uh and then each day like it it rained and you know and but then for like a little bit And then the the worst part of it is not the rain, it's like waiting around for it to dry and people like, "Oh, you can't go in there. You can't do anything for like so it rains for half an hour and you got to wait for like 3 hours for it to dry or something."

Yeah.

Um

but then by like Wednesday it's like it was wonderful and everybody it was like this explosion. People just like they went out in the

Yeah. Cuz it was dusty before that. It was bad.

So the rain kind of saved the burn in my opinion. And I think that we all have trauma from 23. When it rains, everybody freaks out.

We try not to,

but we all just remember being stuck in the mud for three days, which really wasn't that long either, but in the moment, it felt very oppressive.

And so this year when it rained

um you know, I have a personal trailer that I bring out there because I no matter what happens, everything's fine in my trailer.

And even though it's a total s*** box of a Burning Man trailer. Um but so I just kept opening my door. Every time I opened my door, it was a different state of, you know, terrible weather and I closed my bed my my door and I went to bed and eventually we got the radio call that it was dry enough to go to work so I went to work and I was like god that was a lot of drama for getting an extra nap you know but feel like a lot of people just sleep through it because they know it's there's not much else you can do you might as well catch up on rest

yeah drama yeah it's funny because like um my official like taglines for my show it's something my my friend in made up years ago was a party party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****

you know feel like that's kind of like the natural life cycle just about anybody going to bring man

like you show up and you're like yeah you know like party party and then all a sudden after all the partying oh drama drama drama drama drama drama and after the drama it's like oh

yeah it's like oh the burn is terrible we hate it the or blah blah blah yeah it's

and then The next question is like, "Well, what are you gonna do next year?" "Oh, I've got an idea."

Yeah. And everyone gets all excited. I feel like, and that's part of, you know, the one of my friends used to call it radical honesty is, you know, we're going to b**** a lot. And uh there was a sticker or something I saw this year that said, "I wish people would stop bitching at Burning Man." I was like, "No, I will never stop bitching at Burning Man." Like, one of the funnest things about it is bitching about it. And then,

yeah,

you know, you don't complain about things that you don't care about.

Um but I I think that's part of the snark. And yeah, but also there are times out there where I've noticed where it's taking control of my entire burn. So I'll have to just like run away from whoever's hyperfocusing on the drama and then

you know go have fun.

Take it in doses like Yeah.

Yes.

But I mean at least it's like I don't know it gives you like the freedom to like explore those things too, you know? It's like it's not like in the rest of society where it's like you're just kind of so buttoned up and just like no no No, no, keep that part quiet, you know, like and also as I say like in I think the key to any any relationship uh in life, especially like romantic relationship or people very close to you is communication, right? So, it's like when you bottle stuff up and you don't tell people about like that's where problems like arise and it's like and you should feel comfortable enough telling somebody, you know, anything really, right?

Yeah. And then it's, you know, dissent is really power ful and especially like where we're at in the world these days.

It's nice to be in a community where we still openly dissent and feel comfortable doing it like we don't have to hide in the corners to have meetings about our feelings. Like we're just out there,

you know, yelling it or making a sign or whatever.

Also, you don't want to have like be like an echo chamber, right? You know, because it's like maybe

the prevailing idea

isn't the correct one for this circumstance. like nobody, you know, like it's kind of like the elephant in the room. Like everyone's all kind of like, "Oh, you can't build a man base that way. That's going to fall over." It's like, "Why building it this way?"

Yeah.

Well, and it's, you know, it's important to not you, you know, a lot of the bitching is caught in a loop where it's become not productive. And that's where I try to separate. And that's something that I actually learned out there

because there's a lot of training courses they give you um when you work out there uh through the hive program, which I'm a huge fan of through the Burning Man website. And they teach you about like, you know, the hyperfocusing on a situation or are you actually trying to change it and like try to put that energy into making it better? Don't complain without having a solution.

Exactly. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, so yeah, you said you you're an an artist, so like what's uh what's your art or what do you like to create?

Um, I have I am not a very conventional artist. I started out as a photographer and in art school I was, you know, what I consider now is what I call ba basic art. Um, you know, like just photographing stuff in places. And then I've kind of opened up into uh found art where I find weird s*** and make art out of trash essentially.

Um, I am part of a camp out in Slab City that I got an association with through Burning Man and uh it's an off grid commune where we have a big junkyard and you just

salt in the sea. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And by Bombay Beach. Yeah. Another huge artistic community.

Uh so yeah, I pull stuff out of the trash and glue it to stuff. And every once in a while, um lately I'm on a big count clown kick. Um which is very hard to explain. I feel like it was somewhat like a a response to the world sucking. So I just started having these clown parties and I my friends over and I'm like, "Dress up as a clown. There's no rules. Don't break s***. Don't get arrested.

I'm going to photograph it." People were so excited and it was supposed to be like a oneoff thing. Um, but yeah, I have so much clown footage. I actually I need to edit that.

So, yeah. It's hard to answer.

Yeah, I've done

all over the place. It's whatever I feel like in the moment, but mostly photography and found art. Um, I like very natural moments. I don't like to over script.

Um, yeah, I do whatever the f*** I want.

Yeah, I think the whole like found art obtanium thing used to be that used to be like the core of what people did like years ago with Bernie man where and I I loved that it was you could kind of look at something and you could almost see the thought process like and someone would just like they took this street sign and then they combined it with this old tire rim and then like whatever you know you'd be like oh and then they'll kind of inspire you and be like oh wow I like how they combine this and that gives me an idea. I'm going to build something.

Yeah. And the Black Rockck Station is a great place uh to hone that because as we're cleaning that place up and constantly working out logistics, there's all this weird s*** that ends up in the trash.

And then there's people like me who would be like, "Oh my god." And they, you know,

throwing that out.

Yeah. Rifle through the trash. Then we bring it back out and the ranch manager would get all frustrated cuz you they would just can't throw s*** away out there cuz one of us is going to pick it out of the trash. But then you have access to, you know, the auto shop or the common shop and there's a welder. So you can, if you have the energy in your free time while you're out there, you can assemble all kinds of weird s*** and people do.

That's really cool.

I wonder if just like the managers kind of like come around a corner and be like, "What the hell is this thing?" Like, "Throw that in the trash." And then like come back a couple hours later like, "Who took that out of the trash?" And put it back again.

Yeah. And that's that happened to me once. I threw I kept throwing away this couch. It was really gross. And my friends kept pulling it out of the trash. And it was like three years that couch lived of us trying to throw it away. But uh yeah, Weld Boy is also enabling us to pull stuff out of the trash because uh he did the art piece Nang and then he did the one this year. Nang. It was uh

he had whippet containers, the big ones, and he made them bells and he made a giant windchime.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. It was really good. So it's you can't really tell us to not do stuff like that while he's doing stuff like that.

Well, doesn't it also give the inspiration people when you see when you say don't do that, you're like, "Oh,

yeah, exactly. Do that."

It's like, and I told uh my other manager that it's like the people out here are always going to push back because they're anarchists in the desert and you're in charge. So, if you tell them not to do something, they're always going to do it. And it made him feel better in the moment cuz I was like, "Yeah, it's not you." Like, it's just the type of people that are.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, the the glory is in the trash and they cannot stop us.

All right. Well, I think that's a great note to go out on. Thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview.

Yeah, it was fun.

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